[FRF] Hewed Stone Retainers

[serracollector]

New toy for MUD?  All it needs is a Mox or Chalice for 0, or well, anything else, to easily be dropped turn 1.  Survives bolt, and is pretty beefy.

[Protoaddict]

On your first turn with Mud you really want to be dropping a sphere effect I would think. If you get to the later turns where you need something more impactful you have things like Wurmcoil or doom engine that go over the top.

If this was a few years ago, then maybe this would see play, and it is a good card, I just don't think its impactful enough for current mud builds. What is crazy about it though is that its so easy to play in virtually ANY deck that runs moxes it could see play. I wonder if there there is not something to considering this for something like affinity or what have you, though I guess Enforcer would be better there?

[MaximumCDawg]

Ditto what Proto said.  The only undercosted beater that sees play in Vintage is Goyf, and this is not Goyf.  All the other creatures must have utility beyond turning sideways for serious consideration.

[Saya]

But MUD has experienced some vanilla tasted creatures like Juggernaut and Slash panther.This guy seems better than Juggernaut.Is there really no hope?

[Meddling Mike]

But MUD has experienced some vanilla tasted creatures like Juggernaut and Slash panther.This guy seems better than Juggernaut.Is there really no hope?

The thing about Juggernaut is that he hasn't seen play since Lodestone Golem got printed. Slash panther wasn't vanilla. If He didn't have Haste nobody would have played him. The whole point was that he could kill Jace before getting bounced by the -1 ability when the metagame was saturated by Jace.

[zeus-online]

.

[xouman]

I'm not sure this card is better than Juggernaut, or su-chi. 3 >> 4, but having to play a spell before makes it way worse. Mud wants to open with hate, not aggro, and this card as a top deck is bad as hell. 4 resistance is sweeter than 3, but still 5 finishes the game earlier.

In a very aggro mud list can be played, but I don't expect it to shake vintage as panther did.

[Prospero]

Historically, Shop decks have had a problem at the three cost in their curve.  There really aren't any good beaters for that price. 

This guy is bad against Jace, for sure, but he definitely fills a role.  Shop Aggro should eventually see a resurgence (as they look to just be better aggressive decks than the aggressive decks in the field) sometime in the near future.  I don't know that this guy needs to be included, but it's a cool card that should at least be given a try.

[gkraigher]

Woo there, slash Panther is not a vanilla creature.  It has haste and therefore kills most planeswalkers.  That is much different than a 4/4 do nothing vanilla.  

In order for a vanilla creature to be playable in Mud it would have to do something unique like being able to block trygon predator or be a better revoker.  This card does neither of those things.  

If it was 4/4 reach hexproof, then it might be something worth consideration. 

[Protoaddict]

Wonder what the cost should have been for it to be good in vintage?
at  - it is obviously insane.
But what about  ? Would it find a home? I doubt it.

Would it really be insane at 0 or 1 all things considered? I mean lets compare the best version of this (0 mana) to Delver

PROS
Can't be bolted
Gets in under some sphere effects
No color requirement
Slightly larger
Cannot be Mental Misstepped

CONS
Delver is pitchable for force of will.
Delver lets you peak and fetch to manipulate the top deck.
Delver is not a useless topdeck, where as this can be unplayable without another spell
Delver cannot be killed by artifact removal.
Delver has Evasion
Delver cannot be steel sabotaged and wont get caught by Hurkyls recall

The bar in vintage is so damn high for creatures right now that even if this creature was 0 mana, I am not sure it would make the grade. Just being big is vaguely useless without some other utility, and a 5 turn clock is not even that imposing considering what you can do in the format. I mean, lets not forget here that if your deck is running a ton of artifacts and workshops like this creature would likely require, then you could probably just as easily get more value out of Myr Enforcer. I can get a 4/5 with an upside ability for one black if i have 5 cards to delve in my yard, and that card may not even be enough value and may actually be easier to pull off for non shops decks.

[MTGFan]

3 mana 4/4s that can be cast off a single Workshop are really not terrible at all in this format. It passes the Bolt test at the very least.

If Juggernaut can still be played, theoretically, then I think this can as well.

[gkraigher]

Mud is a control deck, not a beat down deck.  It doesn't need vanilla 4/4s

[zeus-online]

.

[Protoaddict]

Wonder what the cost should have been for it to be good in vintage?
at  - it is obviously insane.
But what about  ? Would it find a home? I doubt it.

Actually i guess i should be more clear. I think this card is borderline playable, in the right deck it might be fine.

Once again, is it though? If the deck you are running is a shops or just a mostly brown deck, then Myr Enforcer may have filled this role better, and it sees sadly no play.

If it is not a mostly brown deck, then the question I have is does this beat out other things. If your playing blue, you can use Illusory Angel to get this with flying and not have it be vulnerable to artifact removal. Green likely would rather have goyf. If not those colors I am honestly not sure what you are playing.

[fsecco]

If it had Reach...

otherwise, to be a god beater for any other deck it should've been bigger (5/4, 6/4) or cost 2.

[xouman]

Would it really be insane at 0 or 1 all things considered? I mean lets compare the best version of this (0 mana) to Delver

PROS
Can't be bolted
Gets in under some sphere effects
No color requirement
Slightly larger
Cannot be Mental Misstepped

CONS
Delver is pitchable for force of will.
Delver lets you peak and fetch to manipulate the top deck.
Delver is not a useless topdeck, where as this can be unplayable without another spell
Delver cannot be killed by artifact removal.
Delver has Evasion
Delver cannot be steel sabotaged and wont get caught by Hurkyls recall

The bar in vintage is so damn high for creatures right now that even if this creature was 0 mana, I am not sure it would make the grade. Just being big is vaguely useless without some other utility, and a 5 turn clock is not even that imposing considering what you can do in the format. I mean, lets not forget here that if your deck is running a ton of artifacts and workshops like this creature would likely require, then you could probably just as easily get more value out of Myr Enforcer. I can get a 4/5 with an upside ability for one black if i have 5 cards to delve in my yard, and that card may not even be enough value and may actually be easier to pull off for non shops decks.

At 0 is better for sure, probably in lots of decks outside combo (combo includes oath and dredge). Delver would prefer preordain + 4/4 than play a sad 1/1. Lots of control decks also would like a free 4/4, not having to tap. Aggro would of course love it.

The problem is not paying 3. The problem is not having to play it after a spell. The problem is combining both: it's not easy to play a spell and still having 3 to pay for it. Mud can do it, but it's not easy to play in the first turn a piece of hate or two and still pay 3. For 0, it would be x4 in most mud decks, but mud is not going to tap to play this before playing hate.

[Bill Copes]

If MUD were in need of cheap, vanilla creatures, it would have figured out how to abuse Salvage Titan by now, as it is "free."
This card feels less-playable than that, to me.

[BC]

This card is fine, but it's not good enough for Vintage. It's not disruptive, it's not big enough to be a tremendous amount of pressure, and there WILL be situations where you won't be able to play it. Not good enough.

[nedleeds]

Give it trample it might have had some role. Maybe Trample and 5 power. That's kind of where we are in the workshop pantheon. If you want to cast something at 3 I suggest Metalverker, Tangle Wire, Crucible of Worlds, Metamorph, Sculpting Steel or maybe Caltrops the way things are going.

[gkraigher]

Give it trample it might have had some role

exactly.  this is chump blocked by a 1/1 token.  

This card is awful, and I would rather have caltrops.  

Let's go through a vintage turn.  
You:  Turn 1, Mox, Mishra's workshop , hewed stone retainers.
Opponent:  Mox, Land, Oath of Druids.  

Let's try this again.
You: Turn 1, Mox, Mishra's Workshop, Hewed stone retainers
Opponent:  Mox, Land, Young Pyromancer.  

In both common scenarios, you are miles behind your opponent having gone first and opened with a mishra's workshop.  

This card is not playable.  

[dangerlinto]

I want to make it clear that i don't think this card is going to make the cut, but I just felt the need to pedantically take umbrage with every argument laid out here:

exactly.  this is chump blocked by a 1/1 token.

So is Lodestone. 

This card is awful, and I would rather have caltrops.  

When?  When they have delvers out? 
Are we just comparing 3 mana cards here?  Like you felt the need to list Caltrops over Trinisphere or Crucible or Metalwoker?

Let's go through a vintage turn.  
You:  Turn 1, Mox, Mishra's workshop , hewed stone retainers.
Opponent:  Mox, Land, Oath of Druids.  

Let's try this again.
You: Turn 1, Mox, Mishra's Workshop, Hewed stone retainers
Opponent:  Mox, Land, Young Pyromancer.  

In both common scenarios, you are miles behind your opponent having gone first and opened with a mishra's workshop.   

Bringing up scenarios is one thing, but jeez, at least if you want to show how a card isn't going to make the cut, come up with the better case (but still likely) scenario that it still fails at.

For example, how about Chalice at 0, Workshop then this? That looks at least slightly better, keeps your opponent off turn one pyromancer/oath.  And *that* play is still not good enough to warrant inclusion.

This card is not playable.  

Agreed.

[gkraigher]

So is Lodestone.  

true, but lodestone golem is a sphere while this card does nothing.

For example, how about Chalice at 0, Workshop then this? That looks at least slightly better, keeps your opponent off turn one pyromancer/oath.

I don't think chalice for 0 is a smart play on turn 1, game 1, vs an unknown opponent anymore.  Am I wrong about this?  

It's a good play vs. MUD, okay vs Oath, and okay vs. combo but terrible against delver, dredge, and other creature decks.  I would be reluctant to play chalice for 0 on turn 1 unless I had a 2nd chalice in hand.  Even then, it's still probably wrong because chalice for 1 then chalice for 2 is much better vs the field. 

Heck having 2 chalice for 1s vs delver is a good play too.  If you watch the top 8 from vintage world champs, Roland Chang would have won his match had he played a 2nd chalice for 1.  It's a thing. 

You should only chalice for 0 when you know you are against a Shops player and you are on the play.  In every other scenario, it is better to wait and see what your opponent is playing.  

[TheWhiteDragon]

For example, how about Chalice at 0, Workshop then this? That looks at least slightly better, keeps your opponent off turn one pyromancer/oath.

I don't think chalice for 0 is a smart play on turn 1, game 1, vs an unknown opponent anymore.  Am I wrong about this?  

It's a good play vs. MUD and okay vs Oath, but with the emergence of delver, dredge, and other creature decks I would be reluctant to play chalice for 0 on turn 1 unless I had a 2nd chalice in hand.  And even then, it's still probably wrong because chalice for 1 then chalice for 2 is still better vs the field.  

Yes, you're wrong about this.

CotV at 1 is very strong right now, but Shop's main plan is "mana denial" in the form of waste/tangle/spheres.  Cutting off mana, stopping turn 1 broken, and possibly leaving your opponent with dead cards that they can't cast to tap to tangle or sac to stax is NEVER a bad play in vintage.  Blind on T1, I would always open with my own jewelry and chalice @0 + business.  It CAN wiff, but so can everything else blind on the play.  @0 is the safest and best bet for your main strategy and stops turn 1 losses.

[gkraigher]

The White Dragon, I can see your argument if you don't have a sphere effect to play.  But I would not play chalice for 0 if I had a sphere effect to play.  Now that convention goes out the window if your sphere gets forced by a brain freeze.  But if I could play a sphere effect on turn 1, that means I have the mana to cast chalice for 1.  Which is what I am saying I would do 100% of the time now.  

Chalice for 1 is only bad vs MUD.  And you are still on the play, so you should still have an advantage.  It seems like the highest payout vs. an unknown opponent. 

[TheWhiteDragon]

The White Dragon, I can see your argument if you don't have a sphere effect to play.  But I would not play chalice for 0 if I had a sphere effect to play.  Now that convention goes out the window if your sphere gets forced by a brain freeze.  But if I could play a sphere effect on turn 1, that means I have the mana to cast chalice for 1.  Which is what I am saying I would do 100% of the time now.  

Chalice for 1 is only bad vs MUD.  And you are still on the play, so you should still have an advantage.  It seems like the highest payout vs. an unknown opponent. 

It also means you have the mana to play chalice @ 0 AND a sphere effect...which is much stronger imo.  How are they casting that 1 mana spell with no acceleration and a sphere in play?  With Cotv@1 on the blind, you probably shut off 2+ spells...maybe.  With chalice @0 + sphere, you probably shut off at least 1 mox, ALL of their turn 1 plays (which basically makes you have 2 first turns), and hampered their mana and permanent development throughout the game.  If they have FoW, they're forcing either the sphere or your chalice @1 anyway, so that's neither here nor there.  If you just play chalice at 1, they can still play land, lotus jace...land, mox oath...etc.  Chalice @ 0 + sphere for that same 2 mana you invest in CotV@1 on the play and they durdle for an extra turn and may be crippled for the game if they kept a land, mox, mox hand.  Afterall, that's a good hand to keep if you have land, mox, mox, tinker or something broken like that in a blind G1.

[Protoaddict]

So lets just ask this as I think it is the best way to answer the question of this card, and really any new card that you want to put into an existing list. What do you cut?

This card is quite honestly an upgrade over NOTHING that is in the current list, so as far as adding it to shops goes that should just answer that question. In regards to other, unknown lists, thats a different story, but this should be completely obviously unplayable at this point.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Yeah, I don't think it's home is shops, honestly.  I think a deck running 8 solomox crypt, gitaxian probes, and some other cheap/free stuff is the way to go.  I think it could work well in some RW monastery mentor deck.  You want to get a bonus by casting lots of cheap, non-creature spells.  This guy wants the same thing.  Could just be a fast fatty.

[xouman]

I totally agree that if this card has a place, is not among spheres, but in aggro. Esperzoa is quite good with retainers, since it can bounce moxen to play them. Other question is: how good can a full artifact aggro deck be? Does it need something as Chalice, tangle wire, thorns? I have no experience with those decks, and nobody plays them here.

[Protoaddict]

Same CMC
Pitchable to force
Has Flying
Cannot be hit by artifact removal

So if we are brainstorming Hewed Stone Retainers in a deck with all the artifacts and probes and such, why wouldn't I use the angel first along with counter spells and maybe tinker and brainstorm and all that jazz. And then if I am doing that, why wouldn't I just play delver which asks you to do much less to get a 3/2 flyer for 1 mana

[John Cox]

Same CMC
Pitchable to force
Has Flying
Cannot be hit by artifact removal

So if we are brainstorming Hewed Stone Retainers in a deck with all the artifacts and probes and such, why wouldn't I use the angel first along with counter spells and maybe tinker and brainstorm and all that jazz. And then if I am doing that, why wouldn't I just play delver which asks you to do much less to get a 3/2 flyer for 1 mana

You can't cast that off a workshop.