I Just Bought Some Force of Wills, Now Let Me Vent.

[desolutionist]

About 9ish years ago I bought my first playset of Force of Wills on ebay for roughly $60.  Since then I've sold my cards and usually had to borrow from friends if I wanted to play.

Now in attempt to reinvest into vintage magic, I just bought my second playset of Force of Wills on ebay for $322.  There is a tingly feeling going through my body; like how could I spend that much on a couple of beat up pieces of cardboard?

Crazy man... Only another few hundred dollars and I'll see you all at the next NYSE!

[Greg]

Believe me, the Vintage community collectively feels your pain as we all move forward in this age of obscene card pricing.

I think you might enjoy looking at an old thread of mine from almost exactly a year ago. The thread ended up getting locked, but it still poses an interesting question that is frequently on my mind with each new tournament that I attend.

Congratulations on your new Force of Will playset, either way. I'm confident that you will enjoy sleeving them up and playing with them again after so many years — I know that I did when I returned to the game in 2009. The fun of playing Vintage will hopefully greatly outweigh the cost of your new cards. In fact, you might look back in one year's time and be delightfully surprised at the "amazing deal" that you got. Welcome back.

[Prospero]

I bought back in over the course of 2008-2009.

I paid the following on various purchases in that time period:

1x Unlimited Black Lotus - $800 (was very annoyed at this, as it was $150 more than market value.)
1x Alpha Black Lotus - $1,100
4x Mishra's Workshop - $965
1x Bazaar of Baghdad - $200
1x Unlimited Mox Pearl - $275

2008 doesn't feel like it was that long ago, but it was.  I replaced my Alpha Lotus at Champs this past year and traded/bought it at $8,000.

[H]

I think I bought in in 2009 or 10 and payed $3,000 for Unlimited Power 8 (no Jet), 1 Workshop, and 2 Bazaars.  Felt like a ton of money.

Shit, now I just bought 3 FBB duals for $1200 this week; the Power was a bargain in comparison...

[Hrishi]

I bought in late 2013 and early 2014. It's insane to think about how different the prices are in the span of a year...

[failtofind]

I wonder what the value of the power over the years that people lost to paul m's cheating is? Probably staggering!

[MaximumCDawg]

Prices are just insane.  If I hadn't started playing in the 90s, I would probably not be playing now.  Sadly, this is the world we live in.  Until the paper Magic market crashes, online is the future.

I wonder what the value of the power over the years that people lost to paul m's cheating is? Probably staggering!

Really?  Are we on some sort of campaign to get all the threads on The Mana Drain locked, now?

[desolutionist]

I don't know CDawg, I dabbled with Vintage on MTGO and realized that MTGO is actually just a miserable program and the reason I like Vintage is because of the "cool, old" cards.  Paper MTG could crash but I'd still have the Forces with just that little bit of wear on them.  One day, during the apocalypse, I hope to have a couple of vintage decks that I can play with whoever I'm with and at that point they are priceless; you won't have that option with MTGO

[MaximumCDawg]

I'm with you.  I don't like MTGO at all, at least not in any of its incarnations so far.  However, let's be frank: there is no incentive for Wizards to re-print old staples for Vintage.  The solution they prefer is to diversify the format with new powerful cards that interact with the format and create new archetypes.  And they're great at this, dont get me wrong, but the price of power and older necessary cards is never going down.  The only feasible way to own them without dumping ten grand down the pooper is MTGO.

[Smmenen]

I'm with you.  I don't like MTGO at all, at least not in any of its incarnations so far.  However, let's be frank: there is no incentive for Wizards to re-print old staples for Vintage.  The solution they prefer is to diversify the format with new powerful cards that interact with the format and create new archetypes.  And they're great at this, dont get me wrong, but the price of power and older necessary cards is never going down.  The only feasible way to own them without dumping ten grand down the pooper is MTGO.

I actually love MTGO and much prefer it to IRL Magic. Jaco is harassing me about that.

[MaximumCDawg]

To each their own, I suppose, but I would point out that:

A) As Magic celebrity, you get tons of other benefits playing online that most people don't get / care about.  Specifically, you can stream games and reach a wider audience.  This is a good thing for everyone, by the way, but it doesn't really factor in for someone non-famous who wants to play Vintage.

B) You just moved across the country and so I would imagine that MTGO helps you connect with folks from back in the Midwest.  You might be getting more social interaction out of MTGO that you would in the Bay Area.  (This is complete speculation)

For someone who likes to play locally with locals and has no incentive to stream matches, MTGO seems like a negative.

[p3temangus]

I sold out of Vintage in late 2006, and literally almost cried when I saw what Prices look like less than 10 years later.  Back then 5 proxy was common, and 10 proxy had really just started to become the popular format as Legacy had just become a sanctioned format and the price of Duals/Fetches/FOW and other "moderately" priced staples began to increase.  Even in today's 15 Proxy world, without maxing out a credit card (or 2...) it is a struggle for someone to invest the money necessary to build a competitive deck with today's prices, unless you are willing to spend a significant amount of time saving, knowing that that saving is potentially taking away from other more "practical" ventures (family vacation, attending sporting events, home renovations ect...)

For that reason, I am saving to make the investment in MTGO.  Even if I believed that the price of Paper Power and other Vintage staples still had another 30-50% in price increase coming over the next decade (I was wrong once, so who knows), the more reasonable investment is into MTGO. There is a reasonable expectation that Wizards will (eventually) make an investment into the infrastructure of MTGO, clean up their code issues, ect...  At that time, it's not unreasonable to assume that the prices on MTGO would be due for a spike, and I would find myself in a similar situation I am in now...Simply Priced out of Paper Vintage.

[Smmenen]

To each their own, I suppose, but I would point out that:

A) As Magic celebrity, you get tons of other benefits playing online that most people don't get / care about.  Specifically, you can stream games and reach a wider audience.  This is a good thing for everyone, by the way, but it doesn't really factor in for someone non-famous who wants to play Vintage.

B) You just moved across the country and so I would imagine that MTGO helps you connect with folks from back in the Midwest.  You might be getting more social interaction out of MTGO that you would in the Bay Area.  (This is complete speculation)

For someone who likes to play locally with locals and has no incentive to stream matches, MTGO seems like a negative.

Actually, what I like about MTGO is how I can test with it.  I can find quality opponents at any time, or call up friends and test when I'm free. I can go back and replay games to analyze what I could have done better, etc.

I also love being able to play a tournanrnt from the comfort of home, like the holiday festival. I also like not having to shuffle, sleeve cards, deal with judges, etc. Magic online is just great.  It's the pure game, no nonsense.  

I actually don't enjoy streaming. It's for the audience, not me.

[The Atog Lord]

Sure. Unless you want to test Bomberman. Or test Dragon. Or test a card not available on MODO. And aren't too fussy about being given inaccurate set-availability data. But you know, if you're okay with that, then MODO is a fine option if you'd like to pay for a Magic-playing client.

[Smmenen]

Sure. Unless you want to test Bomberman. Or test Dragon.
Or test a card not available on MODO. And aren't too fussy about being given inaccurate set-availability data. But you know, if you're okay with that, then MODO is a fine option if you'd like to pay for a Magic-playing client.

It's 100% free to test on MTGO once you've bought the cards unless you play in queues, etc

The archived games, convenience and chess clock far outweigh any negatives for me.  

Playing in real life has even more negatives in my opinion, like damaging old cards by use, risk of theft, shuffling, sleeves, bad food, travel, gas, and time.

I consider the absence of Bomberman a net positive

[Hrishi]

I find it interesting that people have had such different experiences with MODO. Personally, half the fun of a Vintage event is hanging out with the same cool group of people, having dinner afterwards, everything that comes with an event. MODO is useful for testing, but it can be extremely buggy and some decks are unplayable. It is useful to play on a whim, but I couldn't imagine it replacing real magic. For example, when I was testing last night there were a number of bugs that annoyed us during the games, but it was obviously a convenient way to test.

Also, it is 100% free to test on MODO, but that is after buying the cards you need to do so. The initial cost is not to be discounted.

Finally, perhaps this is more so because I haven't been able to do this for long, but actually playing with those old cards is a special thrill. It is, after all, the reason I got interested in Vintage in the first place. I couldn't ever imagine pixels duplicating that experience. For this reason, I'm glad I bought in when I did and will continue to be shocked as prices go into the stratosphere.

[Smmenen]

I find it interesting that people have had such different experiences with MODO. Personally, half the fun of a Vintage event is hanging out with the same cool group of people, having dinner afterwards, everything that comes with an event.

I agree with you that that is fun, but it's a huge time commitment.  To play in a Vintage event on a Saturday or a Sunday basically takes up my entire day, especially if I'm doing well.  That was easier to do when (and far more appealing) I was 22, but I'm almost 35.  

What really impressed me about Magic Online was the Vintage Holiday Festival.  I played 8 rounds of Vintage and the swiss rounds were completely over well before 4PM, allowing me to do some things in the afternoon and well into the evening.  That wouldn't have been nearly as easy if I had gone to a tournament site.  

MODO is useful for testing, but it can be extremely buggy and some decks are unplayable. It is useful to play on a whim, but I couldn't imagine it replacing real magic. For example, when I was testing last night there were a number of bugs that annoyed us during the games, but it was obviously a convenient way to test.

When I first starting playing Magic Online, I encountered a number of bugs, but the number has fallen dramatically, or are small and not really that big of a deal (like saying the wrong person won at the end of the game).  

Also, it is 100% free to test on MODO, but that is after buying the cards you need to do so. The initial cost is not to be discounted.

Finally, perhaps this is more so because I haven't been able to do this for long, but actually playing with those old cards is a special thrill. It is, after all, the reason I got interested in Vintage in the first place. I couldn't ever imagine pixels duplicating that experience. For this reason, I'm glad I bought in when I did and will continue to be shocked as prices go into the stratosphere.

The longer I play the game, the less I enjoy playing with the real cards.  I have the exact opposite perspective of you.

The price of the cards means that the risk of theft simply goes up over time as it becomes more profitable to try to steal them.  I know too many people who have had their cards stolen.  I would be devastated if that happened to me.

Also, I don't want to damage the cards by shuffling them, snapping them, etc.  It's wonderful, aesthetically, to play the real cards, but my unease about using them grows such that I no longer even play my real power in local events.

[desolutionist]

The biggest drawbacks to MTGO (to name a few) are:

Less opportunity to play in big Vintage tournaments
No regular opportunity to win big prizes
Cards aren't real yet the cost to play Vintage online = cost to play Vintage IRL
Causes cancer, poor posture, poor vision, pale skin
More less-forgiving opportunities to be interrupted by girlfriend, unexpected guests, etc.
Easily forget that the next round is starting (If you go away to get a snack or do a chore)
Zero social interaction.  (No laughing, no networking, no learning, no bonding)
Can easily be "hacked" (deprived of collection) with no physical defense
Value of Online-only Vintage cards will depreciate over time

Additionally,

If you only owned online cards, you wouldn't be able to travel to far away lands to compete in large tournaments for glory.  Instead you would only be traveling to your bathroom in between rounds.  There are honestly, just better computer games out there.

And for testing, cockatrice serves the same function for free

[failtofind]

I feel like magic online is like care bear magic, the computer takes care of all the complicated rules interactions, there is no pressure on the player, as there is no real audience watching the game in real life, i guess its fine for testing but even then its not like its going to remotely replicate a real vintage tournament.

[enderfall]

I see this discussion has degraded into a hate-fest on MTGO, which is not surprising to see on TMD. There are a lot of misconceptions being bandied around here, which is also not surprising as I imagine many haven't even tried to play MTGO.

[ben_berry]

My analogy is WoW vs tabletop D&D

[Smmenen]

I feel like magic online is like care bear magic, the computer takes care of all the complicated rules interactions, there is no pressure on the player, as there is no real audience watching the game in real life, i guess its fine for testing but even then its not like its going to remotely replicate a real vintage tournament.

To the OP, the reserved list has severely impacted Vintage's future growth.  Eventually, Magic Online will be improved, and when it is, the future of the format is online.  That isn't to say that there won't be sweet IRL tournaments, but the long term future of the game is online.  Both because of the cost of entry as well as the risk of theft.

I disagree with you that the computer takes care of every complicated rules interaction, and that there is no player on the player.  Neither one of those statements is true.  There are many complicated rules interactions, like Flusterstorm assignments, that the computer doesn't do for you.  

Playing Magic Online may not be perfect, but let's not idealize real life magic either.  It's far from perfect.  In fact, it can be pretty awful.

[MaximumCDawg]

To the OP, the reserved list has severely impacted Vintage's future growth.  Eventually, Magic Online will be improved, and when it is, the future of the format is online.  

This is true.  But we don't have to like it.  And, not to be too pessimistic, but this presumes that Vintage actually survives in some form long term.  That's not a given.

[Smmenen]

To the OP, the reserved list has severely impacted Vintage's future growth.  Eventually, Magic Online will be improved, and when it is, the future of the format is online.  

This is true.  But we don't have to like it.  

It may be too much blame to place on the Reserved List.  If Wizards had abolished the Reserved List tomorrow, or, better yet had never enacted it in the first place, who's to say that the situation would be much different?  Or much improved?

The only way to get prices down is to increase supply.  There is no clear mechanism for creating alot of Power Nine, even if there were no Reserved List. A premium foil set wouldn't do it.  A real life Vintage Masters?  Would that even be close to enough?  Look at what happened to Tarmogoyf after Modern Masters.  The price actually continued to climb.  

I don't like the Reserved List, never did, and did my best to persuade Wizards to absolish it (in person), but I was unsuccessful.  But, it's also myopic to think that abolishing Reserved List is a panacea.  It may not even be the biggest hurdle.

And, not to be too pessimistic, but this presumes that Vintage actually survives in some form long term.  That's not a given.

Well, we need to distinguish between different time frames.  In the long-term, Wizards loses copyright protection to cards printed in 1993, but that occurs outside of my lifetime.  

Magic shows no real signs of decay or slowing down.  It's future seems pretty stable and certain.  Vintage has restricted 1 card since 2009.  The format doesn't seem to have shown any signs of the problems that were feared in the past, of critical mass, or whatnot.  It's hard to imagine Vintage having unsolvable problems within a 20 year horizon.  Any problem serious enough to make Vintage a non viable format could probably be solved with a banning or modification of deck construction rules, elongating that time horizon.

All I know is that as long as I am alive and healthy I will play this format.   I've been here long before most people here, and I'll be here long after most of you have "quit."

[Greg]

Is this where we all dream of the fantasy alternative universe that should have been? The world where power hung on long enough to make it into Revised and dual lands quietly snuck into Fourth Edition?

If this actually happened, Vintage would be what Legacy is today, and Legacy would be the biggest thing since Elvis.

[Onslaught]

Similar to your experience, I was looking at the price of judge foil Lightning Bolts today thinking I might finish my set. I remember wincing at paying 30 bucks for one just a handful of years ago, and now they are 100+, thanks a lot EDH!

[Wagner]

Similar to your experience, I was looking at the price of judge foil Lightning Bolts today thinking I might finish my set. I remember wincing at paying 30 bucks for one just a handful of years ago, and now they are 100+, thanks a lot EDH!

I had a play set years ago and I was asking 20$ each in trade and didn't find a taker for at least 2 years. That said, yes, EDH does contribute, but Bolt also began to be widely played in Legacy a while back and most recently Vintage.

What amazed me the most is that format junk rares like Beacon of Tomorrows, Daybreak Coronet ($30), Aggravated Assault, Auriok Champion, Black Market, Bribery, Cloud Key, Doubling Cube, Gauntlet of Power, Genesis, Ghostway, Helm of Kaldra, Miren, the Moaning Well, Mycosynth Lattice ($20) and so so many unplayable cards are now worth decent money.

[policehq]

I don't know CDawg, I dabbled with Vintage on MTGO and realized that MTGO is actually just a miserable program and the reason I like Vintage is because of the "cool, old" cards.  Paper MTG could crash but I'd still have the Forces with just that little bit of wear on them.  One day, during the apocalypse, I hope to have a couple of vintage decks that I can play with whoever I'm with and at that point they are priceless; you won't have that option with MTGO

This is why, when I sold my paper collection, I kept basic lands and a sharpie.

[desolutionist]

I'm thinking about getting some Monastery Mentors; it could be the new Jace, the Mind Sculptor or Tarmogoyf. It's ridiculously good

[marcb]

Mentor is better than tarm.