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John Cox
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« on: February 11, 2015, 02:13:06 am » |
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I have a question that in a vacuum is a lot more complex than in any given meta: in a Delver style list, what would be the better maindeck anti Gifts tech. -Null Rod or Grafdigger's Cage? Obviously Cage hits more things and would be a better card to have in a Delver deck as a singleton. But in a vacuum, against purely Gifts, what would be better? I think Gifts could find a pile that could deal with any single hate card. My thinking is that mana denial would be better to stop them from getting there. Does that help fulfil the ideal role in the match? Would Cage fit that role better? Is there a better card?
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serracollector
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« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2015, 03:07:56 am » |
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Maindeck red elemental blast is pretty damn clutch vs gifts imo.
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B/R discussions are not allowed outside of Vintage Issues, and that includes signatures.
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oshkoshhaitsyosh
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« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2015, 09:45:33 am » |
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Cage most likely. Both are fairly easily dealt with but the simple fact is to execute yawg will or tinker, cage gets in the was more then rod. If we were playing and you landed rod, I'd go all in on the tinker for the win plan. Cage, means I have to just vault key you without tinker or will...or kill the cage then go off.
This being said, a good build of gifts should be built to handle both cards...
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Team Josh Potucek
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xouman
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« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2015, 09:51:22 am » |
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Hard question imho. Overall I'd play cage just because it prevents broken things, but being a tempo deck probably null rod makes more sense.
Null rod is better if you play snapcasters (not really played in delver nowadays) and specially if the Gifts approach relies on time vault as win condition (primary or not).
Cage is my choice without snapcasters and if Gifts plays tinker+robot.
I also thing that in a vacuum, flusterstorm > reb against gush. Not only counters more spells (I doubt Jace is an important card for Gifts, while y.will is a very dangerous card), but usually is a harder counter.
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diophan
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« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2015, 10:27:35 am » |
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I played Uwr delver over the weekend with a maindeck stony silence and it was unsurprisingly awesome against gifts. It's especially potent because it dodges many lists null rod removal (hurkyl's and ingot chewer).
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desolutionist
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« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2015, 01:19:56 pm » |
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Null Rod. Everyone is already prepared for Cage while Null Rod cripples the mana. Also Rod is good vs. Shops, Belcher, etc.
But really, Delver's strength lies on the ability to play so many cheap counterspells. The best defense for delver is to just have a hand of spell pierces, Flusterstorms, and FOWs
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« Last Edit: February 11, 2015, 01:24:14 pm by desolutionist »
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Smmenen
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« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2015, 09:12:07 pm » |
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the subject line is semantically ambiguous. I thought you meant what kind of hate should Gifts maindeck for the Delver matchup  |
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Twiedel
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« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2015, 03:38:41 am » |
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Same here Steve  But nonetheless, I honestly think that I'd always prefer Cage, it is a one-drop which can be protected easily, whereas a two-drop will be harder to resolve against a Gifts deck and can be really really clunky in Delver. Just my 2 cents... |
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Ten-Ten
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Posts: 473
Shalom Aleichem
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« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2015, 10:37:49 am » |
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Stoney silence, Aven mindcensor, Null Rod, Ravenous trap and Graffdiggers cage are all great at slowing Gifts down.
The current Gifts lists I see being tested are not maxing out on Mana Drain and rely mostly on artifact mana for speed. Not to mention packing four mental misstep and some flusterstorms.
Null rod is best in that case. If your mana base allows, I would run Stoney silence, Graffdiggers cage and a singleton Aven mindcensor.
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desolutionist
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« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2015, 12:14:25 pm » |
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Yeah there isn't really a default list yet so it's hard to pinpoint how to hate it out... I personally have had a lot of success with Mana Drain in recent testing, as well as ways to just go over Cage, so it's easy to imagine other people are discovering that as well
I played against a guy who had what was probably 8 Duress effects; that was really good against me because if you haven't noticed, modern Gifts has no draw
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« Last Edit: February 12, 2015, 12:22:16 pm by desolutionist »
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John Cox
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« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2015, 12:57:08 pm » |
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Same here Steve But nonetheless, I honestly think that I'd always prefer Cage, it is a one-drop which can be protected easily, whereas a two-drop will be harder to resolve against a Gifts deck and can be really really clunky in Delver. Just my 2 cents... Well that's where role comes in. Is the goal to tap out each turn and play threats (null rod), or go control and hold up counter mana? I think this is the main issue. Against traditional grixis lists null rod made sense. I'm trying to figure out if it still does now. |
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MisterFoote
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« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2015, 01:41:56 pm » |
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I've been maindecking null rods since the cruise restriction. It's an extremely powerful card v most of the win conditions that the deck struggles with. It's a complete blowout v belcher as well as most other combo decks that are seeing more play now.
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MisterFoote
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« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2015, 01:43:03 pm » |
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I should add that the meta has responded with more maindeck hurkyls, which makes sense for a combo deck to have anyways, as well as more repeals.
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Will
Veritas
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« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2015, 02:16:23 pm » |
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But nonetheless, I honestly think that I'd always prefer Cage, it is a one-drop which can be protected easily, whereas a two-drop will be harder to resolve against a Gifts deck and can be really really clunky in Delver.
How is a 2 drop harder to resolve than a 1 drop against a deck playing 4 Mental Misstep and 0 Spell Snare? I guess you mean because with Cage you have an extra mana to counter their spells, but this seems quite counter-intuitive to me. |
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The artist formerly known as Wmagzoo7
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The Atog Lord
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« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2015, 04:35:52 pm » |
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I just have to ask. Is Gifts such a problem for Delver that one needs maindeck hate? Honestly, I haven't seen a Gifts deck that can go even against Delver, much less a Gifts deck that is favorable against Delver. Delver decks are already running Pyroblast and a heap of other counters. Is this actually a problem that needs to be solved?
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The Academy: If I'm not dead, I have a Dragonlord Dromoka coming in 4 turns
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Chubby Rain
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« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2015, 05:03:48 pm » |
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I just have to ask. Is Gifts such a problem for Delver that one needs maindeck hate? Honestly, I haven't seen a Gifts deck that can go even against Delver, much less a Gifts deck that is favorable against Delver. Delver decks are already running Pyroblast and a heap of other counters. Is this actually a problem that needs to be solved?
This...Delver doesn't need to got out of it's way to beat Gifts. If you are playing one of the aforementioned hate pieces (Null Rod, Cage) in the maindeck, you are likely doing it to hit Gifts AND Belcher, Dredge, other Vault/Key decks, and Oath. |
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desolutionist
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« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2015, 05:14:03 pm » |
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I don't think playing Null Rod is going out of Delver's way. It's going to bottleneck your opponents spells, which enhances the Gush strategy by allowing you to make those land drops. If you're expecting a lot of Gifts, it will only improve your ability to compete in the meta.
But like I said before, a lot of cheap counterspells is what makes Delver good to begin with. It's great to trade a 1 mana card for a 4 mana card and draw 2 for free.
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« Last Edit: February 12, 2015, 05:17:57 pm by desolutionist »
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gkraigher
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« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2015, 04:43:33 pm » |
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I don't understand why delver decks don't play some number of graddiggers cage main already. The card stops something in most decks and helps swing the match up by having access to it in game 1. The matchups where it is no good are still very winnable.
Graf cage should be a main board card in all decks where it is unliateral and only harms your opponent. (Hint delver, merfolk, red/white humans, and non-forgemaster mud)
A friendly reminder of cards shut down by cage:
Oath of Druids
Bloodghast, Ichorid, narcomebia, and dread return
Kuldotha forgemaster
Yawgmoth's will
Tinker
Snapcaster Mage
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« Last Edit: February 14, 2015, 04:46:05 pm by gkraigher »
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