UWR Monastery Mentor

[Hrishi]

I wouldn't play Meltdown. The games in which you lose to shops tend to involve getting sphered/wastelanded out, which Meltdown is pretty atrocious at dealing with. Your best strategy is probably similar to what you're doing: a combination of basics, chewers, swords, Dacks, etc. I haven't played Pulverize and it might be good, but other options are Engineered Explosives, Wear/Tear, Serenity, etc. I've never been a fan of Mystical Tutor in decks like this as the card disadvantage can be rough and you don't have Snapcaster Mages for additional value. It does have a role in fetching the Pulverize but if you decide to cut that, you might want to cut the Tutor as well. Drain is also not great as you don't have much to do with the extra mana and you have a lot of sorcery speed action, not to mention Gush setting you back on lands. A 15th land such as Strip, Library or a fourth strand might be worth it.

Good luck tonight!

Actually the games you lose to Shops are the ones where they have a Chalice at 1 and you can cast any spells, making Meltdown insane, since it can blow up all the Chalice at 1s that they play

This is why you play Ingot Chewer.

[msg67183]

I wouldn't play Meltdown. The games in which you lose to shops tend to involve getting sphered/wastelanded out, which Meltdown is pretty atrocious at dealing with. Your best strategy is probably similar to what you're doing: a combination of basics, chewers, swords, Dacks, etc. I haven't played Pulverize and it might be good, but other options are Engineered Explosives, Wear/Tear, Serenity, etc. I've never been a fan of Mystical Tutor in decks like this as the card disadvantage can be rough and you don't have Snapcaster Mages for additional value. It does have a role in fetching the Pulverize but if you decide to cut that, you might want to cut the Tutor as well. Drain is also not great as you don't have much to do with the extra mana and you have a lot of sorcery speed action, not to mention Gush setting you back on lands. A 15th land such as Strip, Library or a fourth strand might be worth it.

Good luck tonight!

Actually the games you lose to Shops are the ones where they have a Chalice at 1 and you can cast any spells, making Meltdown insane, since it can blow up all the Chalice at 1s that they play

This is why you play Ingot Chewer.

Chewer can only hit 1 artifact, whereas Meltdown can hit a lot at once.

[Hrishi]

Yes, but in order to hit a chalice and a sphere, you need to be able to pay 4 mana. The games you lose to shops, you will not get to 4 mana. This is only worth it to hit 2 chalices at once, and honestly that is a corner case.

[msg67183]

Yes, but in order to hit a chalice and a sphere, you need to be able to pay 4 mana. The games you lose to shops, you will not get to 4 mana. This is only worth it to hit 2 chalices at once, and honestly that is a corner case.

I gave already said this, I don't worry about killing off spheres with Meltdown, that is what Chewer is for, if need be. I have a ton of cards to answer Lodestone Golem, I'm not afraid of him at all honestly.

[diopter]

UWR can't play Ancient Grudge very well, so you're kind of forced to try horrific junk like Meltdown.

The real answer is just to accept that your Shop matchup is worse than Mentor-less RUG Delver. That's all there is to it. You simply cannot beat the curve of (Delver/Bolt/Chewer, Grudge/Pyromancer, Dack).

I'm playing UWR Mentor and my build goes just far enough to have passable game against the opening 3 turns of most Shops builds. Don't bastardize your SB with bad cards that don't actually get you there.

[brianpk80]

Meltdown is a reasonable sideboard candidate when you determine your meta is going to be heavily populated by Shops, Blue Belcher, and Steel City Vault variants.  It's actually primary hate for Steel City with secondary applications against Shop.   

[msg67183]

If you haven't casted Meltdown, please don't criticize it. It is a strong card and it has it's uses.

[Islandswamp]

I just realized how much I still need to learn and to think about with this deck, I never thought about the amount of artifacts that I am running, I just thought about wanting to blow up all of theirs.

I think that I could stand to lose an mox or two if I got to blow up their entire board. I try to save as many artifacts to play after landing a mentor as I can. If I don't need the mana that bad right away, I try to get a monk out of the deal.

[vaughnbros]

How is meltdown better than serenity against shops?  Serenity is cheaper, and guarantees you a turn with untapped mana and no spheres in play.  I'm actually struggling to think of a scenario where Id rather have meltdown other than super late game where neither is very useful.

EE is another card that draws a comparison in its ability to wipe out spheres and chalices.  It's nearly impossible for shops to lock you out of it.  Of course it can be difficult to deal with chalices at some points with it though.  Unlike serenity and Melton, it's ability to be applied in almost every MU makes it very main deck able.

[diopter]

When I say "horrific" it's only in the context of these tempo-oriented Mentor builds or the turbocharged Delver cousins. Spending a lot of mana for Meltdown just to open a window of opportunity to cast 3 mana Preordains is just not what either deck wants to do.

I feel similarly about EE. These are much more suited to the hard-control Bomberman or Landstill builds that are unconcerned about gaining little edges and half Time Walks all the time because they have bigger game.

[msg67183]

How is meltdown better than serenity against shops?  Serenity is cheaper, and guarantees you a turn with untapped mana and no spheres in play.  I'm actually struggling to think of a scenario where Id rather have meltdown other than super late game where neither is very useful.

EE is another card that draws a comparison in its ability to wipe out spheres and chalices.  It's nearly impossible for shops to lock you out of it.  Of course it can be difficult to deal with chalices at some points with it though.  Unlike serenity and Melton, it's ability to be applied in almost every MU makes it very main deck able.

Lance I was stating that I use it in my UR Delver list, there is no White for Serenity, no Green for Grudge....

[diopter]

Splashing Green for Grudge is super easy. It "flows", so to speak - fetching Tropical Island on demand to play the cheaper back half of Grudge after playing the front half (which costs just as much as a Meltdown set to X>0 to avoid Chalice)  just naturally fits with how the deck operates.

Meltdown is just none of those things.

[vaughnbros]

How is meltdown better than serenity against shops?  Serenity is cheaper, and guarantees you a turn with untapped mana and no spheres in play.  I'm actually struggling to think of a scenario where Id rather have meltdown other than super late game where neither is very useful.

EE is another card that draws a comparison in its ability to wipe out spheres and chalices.  It's nearly impossible for shops to lock you out of it.  Of course it can be difficult to deal with chalices at some points with it though.  Unlike serenity and Melton, it's ability to be applied in almost every MU makes it very main deck able.

Lance I was stating that I use it in my UR Delver list, there is no White for Serenity, no Green for Grudge....

So we agree that meltdown has no place in this deck?  UWR Mentor most definitely has White available for Serenity.

[xouman]

Here in Barcelona people have lately toyed with Pulverize. I hate the idea of losing 3 cards (2 of them lands) against MUD, but unless opponent has wurmcoil/factories, it's the best reset available. Serenity costs 2 and gives opponent a full turn...

[dangerlinto]

Here in Barcelona people have lately toyed with Pulverize. I hate the idea of losing 3 cards (2 of them lands) against MUD, but unless opponent has wurmcoil/factories, it's the best reset available. Serenity costs 2 and gives opponent a full turn...

The problem with pulverize is it's ONLY good against Shops when you've established a position, in which case it's win more.  It *can* be good from time-to-time - in those occasions where you have extra land count but have been otherwise locked out, and I think that's what's given some people the idea to give it a try.  Sometimes you get 4 lands on the draw and you can just let them walk right into a devastating Pulverize, but I think those situations just come up too seldom to make it a great sideboard choice.

[msg67183]

How is meltdown better than serenity against shops?  Serenity is cheaper, and guarantees you a turn with untapped mana and no spheres in play.  I'm actually struggling to think of a scenario where Id rather have meltdown other than super late game where neither is very useful.

EE is another card that draws a comparison in its ability to wipe out spheres and chalices.  It's nearly impossible for shops to lock you out of it.  Of course it can be difficult to deal with chalices at some points with it though.  Unlike serenity and Melton, it's ability to be applied in almost every MU makes it very main deck able.

I have enjoyed Meltdown in my list, but would you say Viashino Heretic would be better suited in my sideboard?

Lance I was stating that I use it in my UR Delver list, there is no White for Serenity, no Green for Grudge....

So we agree that meltdown has no place in this deck?  UWR Mentor most definitely has White available for Serenity.

[Flash_Hulk]

Meltdown is terrible in Mentor.

Part of beating shops consistently is establishing board presence with lands and fast mana. Meltdown (and Pulverize) make absolutely no sense when you have access to: Kataki, Energy Flux, Ingot Chewer, Grudge, Wear/Tear, Disenchant, etc;

[DaveKap]

Meltdown is terrible in Mentor.

Part of beating shops consistently is establishing board presence with lands and fast mana. Meltdown (and Pulverize) make absolutely no sense when you have access to: Kataki, Energy Flux, Ingot Chewer, Grudge, Wear/Tear, Disenchant, etc;

I do my best to speak from personal experience and not use language that can make people feel bad about sharing their thoughts. Given that, I am not a big fan of Meltdown or Pulverize. Serenity taking an extra turn even seems to be weak. Shattering Spree has been excellent. I like it even better than Ancient Grudge, given the weakened manabase Green requires. Annul is another option if Oath and Shops are both prominent.

[Smmenen]

I ran 3 Shat Spree in my VSL sideboard, and it's awesome. 

Shat Spree is very much like Grudge, in that it is good in other matchups like Belcher, etc. 

[Islandswamp]

I ran 3 Shat Spree in my VSL sideboard, and it's awesome. 

Shat Spree is very much like Grudge, in that it is good in other matchups like Belcher, etc. 

I'll give it a shot. I had used one before, in a different deck. I've been doing well with my list in my practice matches, but the sideboard is one area of concern.

What do you think of serenity? Each time I cast it, I was very happy with the results.

[Islandswamp]

I cashed the Daily last night, with the list posted in the end of my article.

Please note, the Sideboard is missing two containment priests, but that is a typo caused by the website/deck list editor not recognizing that card title.

Also, I ran one Spell Pierce in the place of one of the Flusterstorms. I think it's a good list, my one loss to delver had a lot to do with not hitting any draw spells save for one Gush in game one. I think that I played well, and I use 14 of the 16 best draw spells in Vintage (from Grandpappy Belcher's article: http://legitmtg.com/competitive/the-vintage-advantage-the-best-draw-engine-in-vintage/ )

The list is at the bottom of the article. It's pretty close to the one I posted in here previously - http://puremtgo.com/articles/eternal-spotlight-mental-probing-and-gitaxian-missteps

[Naixin]

Here is my current build:

Artifacts:7
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire

Creatures: 5
4 Monastery Mentor
1 Snapcaster Mage

Instants: 23
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
3 Dig Through Time
1 Fire // Ice
2 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Gush
4 Mental Misstep
1 Misdirection
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Pyroblast
1 Swords to Plowshares

Lands: 14
2 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island

Planeswalkers: 3
2 Dack Fayden
1 Jace, the Mindsculptor

Sorceries: 8
2 Gitaxian Probe
1 Ponder
3 Preordain
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Time Walk

SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 3 Containment Priest
SB: 4 Ingot Chewer
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 Wear // Tear
SB: 1 Mountain
SB: 2 Shattering Spree

First thing y'all might have noticed is I opted for 4 monks. Some people prefer 3 Monks but from experience, I've lost more games due to not finding a threat than finding too many.

I run both Merchant Scroll and Mystical Tutor. This allows me 2 ways to find Pyroblast and Swords to Plowshares in a pinch. Along with the Snapcaster Mage, it gives me a fair number of ways to deal with random threats.

Finally, I know most people run 15 lands but I chose to run 14. It makes me weaker to shops but to compensate, my SB has more shops hate. I will consider going to 15 lands when I start losing a lot due to mana screw.

I really want to make Tinker+Robot work in mentor but it seems like that will be trying to do too much.

[rickster]

I've been cashing a few daily events with a modified version of Brain Kelly's 4 color mentor list

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=47504.0

http://i.imgur.com/MwCH0re.jpg

Listening to the gitaxian probe podcast had me remove all probes from my decks. So far i'm not missing probe.

2 Mentors has been fine. It's more my style to durdle than win the game in a timely fashion. I won a match last night with zero seconds on the clock (I was dual queuing miracles in legacy though).

[Naixin]

I feel like I have come to 2 basic philosophies. I'm not sure which one is better so I was hoping for opinions.

Here is my first decklist. The idea behind this is to tutors for answers. Once you know what you need, you tutor for the answer and then win.

Artifacts:7
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire

Creatures: 6
4 Monastery Mentor
2 Snapcaster Mage

Instants: 23
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
3 Dig Through Time
1 Fire // Ice
2 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Gush
4 Mental Misstep
1 Misdirection
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Pyroblast
1 Swords to Plowshares

Lands: 14
2 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island

Planeswalkers: 2
2 Dack Fayden

Sorceries: 8
1 Ponder
4 Preordain
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Time Walk
1 Treasure Cruise

SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 3 Containment Priest
SB: 3 Ingot Chewer
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 2 Wear // Tear
SB: 1 Mountain
SB: 1 Shattering Spree
SB: 1 Sudden Shock

The second decklist is more recent. I wanted to see what it was like to give up tutors for raw card-draw power. This is what I came up with and it's been running pretty smoothly so far. It feels more aggressive than the first list but doesn't have as good as card selection.

Artifacts:7
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire

Creatures: 6
4 Monastery Mentor
2 Snapcaster Mage

Instants: 24
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
4 Dig Through Time
2 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Gush
3 Mental Misstep
1 Misdirection
2 Pyroblast
2 Swords to Plowshares

Lands: 14
2 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island

Planeswalkers: 2
2 Dack Fayden

Sorceries: 7
1 Ponder
4 Preordain
1 Time Walk
1 Treasure Cruise

SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 3 Containment Priest
SB: 4 Ingot Chewer
SB: 2 Wear // Tear
SB: 1 Mountain
SB: 1 Shattering Spree
SB: 2 Sudden Shock


So, which direction do you think is better? Card selection or raw card advantage?

[Princess_Power]

I have been playing daily events with URW Tokens. I placed 4-0 (I got paired down vs LSV in round4, the video is on CFB), 3-1, 3-1 so far which probably implies I got lucky! (though I was mega unlucky the event I won paid out DTK/FRF ...).

This is the "Shell" of Tokens I recommend:

Threats: 6
Mix of Young Pyromancer and Mentor
(I suggest at least 3 mentor)

Removal: 3
Mix of Lightning Bolt/Swords
(I like bolts since they can always go to the face and make a tokens)

Card Advantage: 10
1 Ancestral
1 Treasure Cruise
4 Dig Through Time
4 Gush

Cantrips+Time Walk: 6
1 Brainstorm
1 Time Walk
4 Preordain
(its ok to cut the ponder imo)

Counterspells: 13
4 FOW
4 Mental Misstep
3 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
(3 fluster is a must imo. I would run 4 fluster but pyroblast kills delver+other less important stuff)

Mana: 18
1 Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Strip Mine
1 Island
2 Tundra
4 Volcanic Island
7 Fetchlands
(I really think with 4 gush you want 14 "islands" though 8 fetch/6targets is also ok. )

Total = 56
Dead cards vs shops = 9

Extra Stuff you can run: 4 slots
-Ponder
-Gitaxian Probe
-7th Token Creature
-One wasteland Main
-Lotus Petal Main
-4th removal spell (fire/ice, swords, bolt)
-Dack Fayden (I do not like this card very much. Though its cool with Gush)
-More Counters (4th Flusterstorm, 1 Mana drain, 1 misdirection, etc)
-Mystical Tutor
-1 Sensei's Diving Top

Sideboard Suggestions: 8
4 Ingot chewer (the best thin vs shops)
4 Wasteland - 3 Wasteland if one is in the main
(extra mana or killing a workshop is great, they help vs dredge and vs creature-less decks you can board these in over removal. 1-2 of these are great to board in on the play vs anything without tons of basics).


Final Thoughts:
-It is very hard to have a board plan for both Dredge and Oath. Since boarding for shops is not negotiable with 9 dead cards main. I will note I have seen very good people (Such as Steve Menendian) go very light on dredge hate.
-I think the best sideboard card for Oath is Wear/Tear or Clear. containment priest/Cage get blown up by Abrupt Decay. Though cage can buy you some time. I think you are better of trying to counter the Show and Tells and wear/tearing the oath. The side-board wastelands help alot here because you can blow up the Boseju.

I LOVE this deck, its so consistent. Feel free to pm me if you want to talk. Surely I have seen some of you on mtgo!

[tito del monte]

@princess_power. Nice post! I'd seen your lists from the dailies and like the approach. I've been trying to play the 'bigger' version but I keep getting slaughtered by straight UR Delver. I'll give your version with a mix of threats a try and see how it goes.

Interesting idea with the wastelands especially!

[Islandswamp]

I have been playing daily events with URW Tokens. I placed 4-0 (I got paired down vs LSV in round4, the video is on CFB), 3-1, 3-1 so far which probably implies I got lucky! (though I was mega unlucky the event I won paid out DTK/FRF ...).

This is the "Shell" of Tokens I recommend:

Threats: 6
Mix of Young Pyromancer and Mentor
(I suggest at least 3 mentor)

Removal: 3
Mix of Lightning Bolt/Swords
(I like bolts since they can always go to the face and make a tokens)

Card Advantage: 10
1 Ancestral
1 Treasure Cruise
4 Dig Through Time
4 Gush

Cantrips+Time Walk: 6
1 Brainstorm
1 Time Walk
4 Preordain
(its ok to cut the ponder imo)

Counterspells: 13
4 FOW
4 Mental Misstep
3 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
(3 fluster is a must imo. I would run 4 fluster but pyroblast kills delver+other less important stuff)

Mana: 18
1 Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Strip Mine
1 Island
2 Tundra
4 Volcanic Island
7 Fetchlands
(I really think with 4 gush you want 14 "islands" though 8 fetch/6targets is also ok. )

Total = 56
Dead cards vs shops = 9

Extra Stuff you can run: 4 slots
-Ponder
-Gitaxian Probe
-7th Token Creature
-One wasteland Main
-Lotus Petal Main
-4th removal spell (fire/ice, swords, bolt)
-Dack Fayden (I do not like this card very much. Though its cool with Gush)
-More Counters (4th Flusterstorm, 1 Mana drain, 1 misdirection, etc)
-Mystical Tutor
-1 Sensei's Diving Top

Sideboard Suggestions: 8
4 Ingot chewer (the best thin vs shops)
4 Wasteland - 3 Wasteland if one is in the main
(extra mana or killing a workshop is great, they help vs dredge and vs creature-less decks you can board these in over removal. 1-2 of these are great to board in on the play vs anything without tons of basics).


Final Thoughts:
-It is very hard to have a board plan for both Dredge and Oath. Since boarding for shops is not negotiable with 9 dead cards main. I will note I have seen very good people (Such as Steve Menendian) go very light on dredge hate.
-I think the best sideboard card for Oath is Wear/Tear or Clear. containment priest/Cage get blown up by Abrupt Decay. Though cage can buy you some time. I think you are better of trying to counter the Show and Tells and wear/tearing the oath. The side-board wastelands help alot here because you can blow up the Boseju.

I LOVE this deck, its so consistent. Feel free to pm me if you want to talk. Surely I have seen some of you on mtgo!

My list was pretty similar, I also made sure all my lands were "Islands". I've been thinking about digging the deck up again. I had cut YP a while back though, and was running snapcaster mage. Also, 2 mana drains that were usually overperforming. I also liked Flusterstorm a ton. It helps you win the counter wars most of the time.

[cardboard bob]

Been testing one-ofs of fastbond and mass hysteria in a list with 3-gush, 3 mentor. Landing either one is just great, but they get hit by missteps. Mana base, I dropped the island for a trop and went up to 15 lands. Also allows me to play a t-predator out of the board, and one ancient grudge.

[Naixin]

It seems to me that there are 2 main types of mentor decks now.

1) Plays 15-16 lands with the full set of moxen, mana crypt, sol ring, and plays bigger spells like Jace, Tinker, Dragons, etc. Typically plays 2-3 mentor. Plays less counters and draw spells in favor or higher impact spells

2) Plays 13-14 lands with only lotus, mox sapphire, mox ruby, and sometimes lotus petal. Plays 4 mentor as well as 2 snapcaster/young pyromancer and instead of bigger spells, runs more countermagic/removal

It seems that both of these decks have been placing well which leads me to think that either they're equally good and 2 different directions should be taken or that they're equally bad, and an optimized list is far from solved since if there was a solved list, people would play that instead.

Now, to think which version is better....

[HankZhong]

Generally speaking, the deck with higher spell density and lower mana count will be better against blue decks and worse off against shop decks. So it's really about picking your poison in that regard.

Also, I don't think I'd ever say this, but I just don't think Jace is a good card right now. With delver/mentor decks around, Jace will often just be a brainstorm + 3 life.

I personally like the consistency of a low mana count / high spell density deck. I don't mind losing to shops game 1, as that matchup is tough for most blue decks game 1 regardless, but hopefully play a ton of SB cards to make up for it.