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Author Topic: Vintage Super League: Who Would You Like to See?  (Read 34117 times)
The Atog Lord
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« Reply #120 on: December 16, 2015, 10:29:51 am »

Thank you! I appreciate hearing that Smile
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« Reply #121 on: December 16, 2015, 12:16:59 pm »

Oh man! So glad to have VSL proper back! Honestly, it's like the gentlemen's club of Magic and I sit there pretending I could be part of it. Smile

My favourite moment was probably Steve's face when he saw what decks Luis and Randy were on... spectacular!
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« Reply #122 on: December 16, 2015, 01:12:47 pm »

Amazing play by Rich in my opinion (despite what Tom on commentary thought). I've gone back and watched that series over lunch and would appreciate if you could confirm something: did you neglect to kill the hangarback in game 2 because your ultimate plan was to race it with seeker? I imagine this was your line and you had to use the flashback to kill the jitte instead since the jitte races too well.
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The Atog Lord
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« Reply #123 on: December 16, 2015, 02:52:46 pm »

Quote
did you neglect to kill the hangarback in game 2 because your ultimate plan was to race it with seeker?

Exactly. Drawing Dack was great, to be sure. But before drawing Dack, my plan was to use Seeker to race his Walker. Without Ravager or Jitte, I believe that would have been viable.
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« Reply #124 on: December 16, 2015, 05:45:25 pm »

The match between LSV and Beuhler was hilarious.
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« Reply #125 on: December 16, 2015, 09:39:29 pm »

My favorite moment last night was the Brainstorm into three Gush...followed in chat by

RichShay: I wonder if this is in Steve's Gush book.

At least there were very few lopsided games last night...most were either actually interesting or at least hilarious.
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« Reply #126 on: December 17, 2015, 06:55:15 am »

And here we are: http://magic.wizards.com/en/MTGO/articles/archive/vintage-super-league-season-4-decklists

Overall a very competitive deck selection with almost all actual top decks (beside Oath, Grixis Thiefes and BUG Fish maybe) and one interesting homebrew (Enligthened Kai).
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« Reply #127 on: December 22, 2015, 10:48:45 pm »

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« Reply #128 on: December 22, 2015, 11:32:57 pm »



2 Kataki's is the optimal number in play.
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« Reply #129 on: February 26, 2016, 07:49:30 pm »

Hopefully this doesn't count as thread necro'ing; I didn't want to start a brand new thread.

If anyone is a patreon for VSL and hasn't seen it, it looks as though Randy is going to select the remaining competitors for the qualifying tournament by a vote. So if you want to see more vintage community members in the VSL, go there and vote!
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« Reply #130 on: February 26, 2016, 09:11:35 pm »

Saw it, voted for Mike Long and Dennis Bentley.
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« Reply #131 on: February 29, 2016, 03:45:07 pm »

The Vintage world champion should have a standing invite.
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« Reply #132 on: February 29, 2016, 04:50:55 pm »

The Vintage world champion should have a standing invite.

At the very least they should be invited to the play-in tournament.
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« Reply #133 on: March 09, 2016, 04:54:46 pm »

I have to express that I'm starting to get pretty disillusioned with VSL at the moment. I think the icing on the cake was last night when both LSV and Eric Froehlich decided to have a "gentlemen's agreement" to not play a deck with Workshop or Bazaar. This sort of anti-shop anti-dredge sentiment as "not being real magic" needs to stop or it'll start to permeate the community and then more toys for those decks will be restricted. Blue decks are just one facet of Vintage and not ALL of Vintage. Get over it folks. It's really starting to get old to hear the soap box from many of the Vintage elite and *cough cough* the Wizards elite.

My 2 cents,

-Storm

 
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« Reply #134 on: March 09, 2016, 05:57:47 pm »

I have to express that I'm starting to get pretty disillusioned with VSL at the moment. I think the icing on the cake was last night when both LSV and Eric Froehlich decided to have a "gentlemen's agreement" to not play a deck with Workshop or Bazaar. This sort of anti-shop anti-dredge sentiment as "not being real magic" needs to stop or it'll start to permeate the community and then more toys for those decks will be restricted. Blue decks are just one facet of Vintage and not ALL of Vintage. Get over it folks. It's really starting to get old to hear the soap box from many of the Vintage elite and *cough cough* the Wizards elite.

My 2 cents,

-Storm

The "gentlemen's agreement" was likely a reaction to viewer sentiment, which was sick of Shops and looked on Rich Shay choosing two Shops decks the week before unfavorably, and the play-style preferences of LSV and Efro. David Ochoa flat out rejected such a "gentlemen's agreement" when Randy asked him about it, so it looks like you won't have to worry about it next week...

However, I have to call you out for hypocritically getting up on your own soap box here. The pros and viewers of the VSL have a right to their own opinions, as do you. Telling them to "get over it folks" because this is how I say Vintage should be comes across as arrogant and portrays the Vintage community as pretentious and exclusive. It certainly isn't doing much for your position.
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« Reply #135 on: March 09, 2016, 06:14:54 pm »

I have seen lots of MUD and several Dredge decks in VSL, so I cannot say that those players ignore those archetypes. There are other decks far more unrepresented, but that's ok, deck choice is up to every player. At the end they play to win, and choose the best decks according to what they expect. If I were in their place I'd not choose my pet deck, but the decks that have the best options to win according to my understanding.
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« Reply #136 on: March 09, 2016, 07:12:13 pm »

Personally I didn't find yesterday matches more interesting than usual, it felt like the decks were just as much unfair. I much prefer to see artifacts being destroyed than Time Vault being untapped and Blighsteel Colossus being tapped.
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Stormanimagus
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« Reply #137 on: March 09, 2016, 08:00:15 pm »

I have to express that I'm starting to get pretty disillusioned with VSL at the moment. I think the icing on the cake was last night when both LSV and Eric Froehlich decided to have a "gentlemen's agreement" to not play a deck with Workshop or Bazaar. This sort of anti-shop anti-dredge sentiment as "not being real magic" needs to stop or it'll start to permeate the community and then more toys for those decks will be restricted. Blue decks are just one facet of Vintage and not ALL of Vintage. Get over it folks. It's really starting to get old to hear the soap box from many of the Vintage elite and *cough cough* the Wizards elite.

My 2 cents,

-Storm

The "gentlemen's agreement" was likely a reaction to viewer sentiment, which was sick of Shops and looked on Rich Shay choosing two Shops decks the week before unfavorably, and the play-style preferences of LSV and Efro. David Ochoa flat out rejected such a "gentlemen's agreement" when Randy asked him about it, so it looks like you won't have to worry about it next week...

However, I have to call you out for hypocritically getting up on your own soap box here. The pros and viewers of the VSL have a right to their own opinions, as do you. Telling them to "get over it folks" because this is how I say Vintage should be comes across as arrogant and portrays the Vintage community as pretentious and exclusive. It certainly isn't doing much for your position.

This is so off point I don't even know where to begin. I am not promoting my own bias, but rather I am simply wanting an absence of bias when folks decide what is "good vintage." Any deck that is legal should be fair game to choose. Actually, I find what they did yesterday quite exclusive and pretentious and I think it damages the reputation of vintage as a format where "any cards can be played and any strategy can be tried as long as it competes."

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« Reply #138 on: March 09, 2016, 08:01:34 pm »

Might be interesting at some point (if they find interest waning) to have predetermined archetype matchups.  Therefore each player has to play each deck style, and they can put their own spin on the deck, or even exploit their opponent's inexperience with an archetype.  I found it very interesting to see David Ochoa's unique shops builds, and even more interesting to see some of the pros making shops mistakes.  Something for everyone.

The gentleman's blue-on-blue matchup certainly was one of the least entertaining of the entire season.
  
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« Reply #139 on: March 09, 2016, 08:20:13 pm »

The only thing that bothered me about it was that for some reason Efro decided that "gentleman's blue" means you can play a black deck. Spirit vs. word, etc.

I realize that sounds ridiculous, but VSL is just entertainment. It's a weekly TV show. Watching Dredge sucks, watching Shops is fun sometimes but it's getting pretty old. I can barely remember the last time someone played a Time Vault. It was a nice change of pace, and for the sake of entertainment, it's fine. A combination of awesome and a shame that LSV had the turn 1 Vault/Key, but whatever. (I'd have loved to see his Remora/Notion Thief deck absolutely wreck another blue control deck, that matchup would be insane).

There's a large segment of the Vintage population that likes to play blue decks that while historically dominant haven't been particularly good in a while. LSV is one of them, and he can do what he wants for entertainment's sake. VSL metagame isn't anything like real life, don't treat it as so. If your argument is that this type of thing is somehow bad for how outsiders/the community view the format, maybe you're right. I don't know. But chat seemed happy about it. I personally have absolutely no problem with/bias towards any particular deck, but, like it or not, watching Dredge, Shops, and Storm is not a good introduction or advertisement for our format. And since those decks have been pretty much all anyone's played lately, a little break during the playoffs for a match between two of most popular pros seems pretty harmless.

TL;DR: VSL is its own thing. It's a TV show based on Vintage. Its purpose is entertainment. The VSL metagame, experiences, decklists, commentary, etc., do not for the most part represent the Vintage we play or discuss here. I think WoTC is smart enough to know that when it comes to B/R changes.

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« Reply #140 on: March 09, 2016, 09:37:39 pm »

This is so off point I don't even know where to begin. I am not promoting my own bias, but rather I am simply wanting an absence of bias when folks decide what is "good vintage." Any deck that is legal should be fair game to choose. Actually, I find what they did yesterday quite exclusive and pretentious and I think it damages the reputation of vintage as a format where "any cards can be played and any strategy can be tried as long as it competes."

The VSL is free entertainment and the players are in it largely for their own enjoyment. You don't think that two friends have the right to a "gentleman's agreement" on what decks they want to play before a match?

Also, where did this "any cards can be played and any strategy can be tried as long as it competes" "reputation" come from? First of all, you CAN play any card that's legal in any strategy you want, regardless of whether or not it's competitive. I jammed Palinchron into an Academy-Humanstorm hybrid deck and ran it into the top 8 of a small event, because a friend dared me to and there happened to be one in the case while I was registering for a tournament. How is this different from literally any other competitive format? Why do you think this statement only applies to Vintage? I played nothing but Battle of Wits decks at Standard FNMs when that was recently legal. It was a blast.

All I'm saying is that VSL participants outside of Steve and Rich used to post in these forums at the beginning of the VSL. They since stopped doing that and do you think the entitlement of similar posts and the backlash from the community here might have contributed to it?
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« Reply #141 on: March 09, 2016, 11:25:39 pm »

id like to see some more of the former world champs involved as well as the current one. i think it would shake things up.
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« Reply #142 on: March 09, 2016, 11:35:18 pm »

"Actually, I find what they did yesterday quite exclusive and pretentious"

So, Noah, let me make sure that I understand you correctly. You were watching a league of players hand-picked by Randy. The bulk of these players have won pro tours or are in the Magic Hall of Fame. Specifically, you were watching a match between two of the greatest professionals in the game today, who have become famous across the world. And these two players were playing decks that often cost over a thousand dollars to build online, and cost five figures to build in real life. And as you were watching these two Hall-Of-Famers shuffling up their decks, decks which in paper have a combined cost exceeding a year's tuition at Thayer Academy, that is when you decided that the exclusive and pretentious thing was their agreement to play blue decks. Is that, Noah, actually what you are saying?
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« Reply #143 on: March 10, 2016, 11:23:33 am »

This seems to be an unpopular opinion, but I wasn't a fan of the "gentlemen's" agreement.  First, this is not even Vintage anymore with this agreement in place.  It's the equivalent of saying "Hey let's ban these two format staples".  So in the interest of this league actually being the Vintage Super League and not the Arbitrary Eternal Format Super League, I'd hope that this agreement is a one time thing.  

Also somehow playing Workshop or Bazaar is ungententlemenly?  When people talk about pretentious Vintage players this is exactly what they are talking about.  It continues to be disappointing to me to see these stereotypes of Workshop and Bazaar as the bad guys on such a big stage.  How about we just sleeve up our decks and have some fun, not worrying about the health of a healthy format?
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« Reply #144 on: March 10, 2016, 12:10:48 pm »

I don't know who said playing Workshop or Bazaar is ungentlemanly. Maybe you don't see what a gentleman's agreement means. I'm not saying I was a fan of the agreement, but it's the perogative of those two players to play whatever they feel like playing and have fun with.

In fact, I'll go as far as to say that I didn't like the agreement, but that's my own opinion. It's not my place to force that opinion onto other people. If LSV and Efro have more fun playing Blue mirrors, isn't that their business?
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« Reply #145 on: March 10, 2016, 12:46:46 pm »

I don't know who said playing Workshop or Bazaar is ungentlemanly. Maybe you don't see what a gentleman's agreement means. I'm not saying I was a fan of the agreement, but it's the perogative of those two players to play whatever they feel like playing and have fun with.

In fact, I'll go as far as to say that I didn't like the agreement, but that's my own opinion. It's not my place to force that opinion onto other people. If LSV and Efro have more fun playing Blue mirrors, isn't that their business?

Gentlemen's agreement =/= Gentlemen's blue.  I'm referring to the gentlemen's blue narrative not the agreement.

LSV and Efro can play whatever they want, but don't call it Vintage if it's not Vintage.
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« Reply #146 on: March 10, 2016, 12:48:40 pm »

Workshops and Dredge have gotten plenty of screen time. I see no issue in trying to mix things up as neither deck is particularly interesting to watch on stream (outside of corner cases). After all isn't the point of VSL to expose the masses to this great format, introducing them to a wide spectrum of viable play?

There's a lot of talk about player retention and generating Vintage hype; perhaps being more supportive of an open VSL instead of bitching about individual Vintage privilege/bias is the play.
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« Reply #147 on: March 10, 2016, 12:54:46 pm »

perhaps being more supportive of an open VSL instead of bitching about individual Vintage privilege/bias is the play.
100% on board.  Even the chat was endlessly complaining about the commentary.  Every one of those players does great commentary.  I think this is just a case of people complaining for the sake of it.  It can be really damaging to a format that you're trying to expose to a wider audience when there is a crowd of people booing just so they can get on board of the complain-train.
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« Reply #148 on: March 10, 2016, 12:57:52 pm »

Workshops and Dredge have gotten plenty of screen time. I see no issue in trying to mix things up as neither deck is particularly interesting to watch on stream (outside of corner cases). After all isn't the point of VSL to expose the masses to this great format, introducing them to a wide spectrum of viable play?

There's a lot of talk about player retention and generating Vintage hype; perhaps being more supportive of an open VSL instead of bitching about individual Vintage privilege/bias is the play.

The wide spectrum of Blue times 5 and Storm?  4 seasons in and we haven't seen a hate bears deck once, which conceivably is the entry level deck into Vintage.  None of these discussions started until the VSL started to talk about how unhealthy our format is.  Do you think that narrative is good for luring in new players?  The fact that the narrative is largely false, especially comparative to every other major format, just furthers the dissentment.  Let's play not Vintage for the semifinals of the Vintage Super League is pretty silly to me.
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« Reply #149 on: March 10, 2016, 01:21:25 pm »

Complaints about narrative are fair but when the meta naturally gravitates towards the most competitive of archetypes and subsequently the players get tired of said archetypes - a switch up is probably for the best unless you want to keep the assumedly incorrect narrative rolling.

Arguments about meta representation are rapidly becoming wearisome. You're just not going to get an accurate representation of paper meta on MTGO even excluding player bias, meta constraints, and the minuscule sample size. At the end of the day VSL is about displaying the most interesting Vintage content and Dredge/Workshops just isn't that for the majority of the MTG playerbase. The match ups tend to be fairly repetitive and lacking in interaction - this more than anything else feeds into preconceived notions about the format.
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