Potential Idea: Cockatrice Vintage League?

[msg67183]

We all love Vintage. We all love watching Vintage. The VSL has been a great success and now I'm suggesting something to everyone, a Cockatrice variant of Vintage Super League. I've been thinking about this for awhile now and would like some input. Here are the guidelines I was thinking of using:

We set a certain number of players (VSL uses 10 for instance)
The players MUST have an account on Cockatrice as well as TheManaDrain
The matches go on one at a time and the other players spectate, to watch for enjoyment of the format as well as ensure no funny business happens (since Cockatrice has no rules code)
Each player chooses a deck to use for 3 weeks, during a 9 week period, just like the VSL
Decklists Must be posted after the trimester's first week is finished
Players cannot alter decklists during the trimester
After the 9 weeks the four highest scoring players move on to playoffs
The highest seed getting a bye into the finals
The second seed getting a bye into the semi finals
The last seed will not be allowed to play again the following season

What are everyone's thoughts on this? I feel it would be great practice for people who test on Cockatrice anyway as well as people who really like competition.

If you are interested please let me know, I would really like to start this.

Only issue for me is I would only be able to do weekends.

Thank you for reading

[msg67183]

Or we can have a set number of players and do a single Elim event each week and the winnder gets a point, the top X players with the most points get to play in playoffs.

[xouman]

Seems a really interesting initiative. Surely we will miss the comments from a pair of experts, but new videos would be very enjoyable.

About the number of players in the league and the dismishing of one for next league, I'll be cautious. It should depend on the number of interested contendants and the reception. Also I would expect a lower level of "professionality", so rules to deal with unpresented players (and even judge rulings) are surely needed.

[diopter]

AmbivalentDuck ran something like this a long while back (2011?) so search his post history for ideas.

There also used to be a "Community vs. Ringers" thing from that time frame, I even played it in once.

IIRC in both cases it was extremely difficult to keep the momentum going.

[brianpk80]

I think it's a good idea.  Maybe it would be The Mana Drain Super League.  The availability of streaming and commentary along with set viewing times might help to keep the momentum going in ways that weren't as readily available in the past. 

[JarofFortune]

I like this idea, and I'd be very interested in competing, but I have a couple questions. Is this gonna be streamed? Recorded? Will there by Skype-Commentary by the players like the VSL? Also, who gets to play in this? How will it be decided?

Edit: Will first place get a prize like the VSL? It could be that all the players pitch in some amount of money for a prize. It could even just be some bad card signed by all the players. I've heard that the 93/94 players in Europe do this with a Giant Shark for first prize.

[msg67183]

First I need a list of people who are interested that have both a TMD account and a Cockatrice account.
I have no idea how to stream and record I would need assistance with that.
I'm not sure about prizes, especially wince this is over Cockatrice and nobody knows where the other players are located.

Which idea do you guys like better, the use a deck for 3 weeks then switch, or use a different deck each week and just play a single Elim event each week?

[JarofFortune]

First I need a list of people who are interested that have both a TMD account and a Cockatrice account.
I have no idea how to stream and record I would need assistance with that.
I'm not sure about prizes, especially wince this is over Cockatrice and nobody knows where the other players are located.

Which idea do you guys like better, the use a deck for 3 weeks then switch, or use a different deck each week and just play a single Elim event each week?

Definitely the 3 weeks plan. I'd imagine Single Elimination can lead to frustration in a format with so much variance. You should have the option to not switch decks, though(This option is available in the VSL).

[msg67183]

Agreed I want to make it as similar to the VSL as possible. Without making it exactly like it, don't want to offend people. I know of a few players already that would be playing or that I would like to play besides myself:

Brian Kelly
James Saltsman
(Don't know real names)
JarofFortune
Guli
Stormanimagus

If you know of others please let me know. Also how many players should we start with? 10 seems like a solid number

[msg67183]

What about this for prizes:

For the winner:

http://magiccards.info/tsts/en/75.html with all the players names on it

For the last place player:

http://magiccards.info/m14/en/94.html with all the players names on it

Possibly give more stuff out to the winner but what do you guys think?

[msg67183]

Here's another question, would you guys like it to be 10 players, just like the VSL? Or would you rather it be smaller, like 8 to make the seasons go faster?

[vaughnbros]

I think you really need to ask what is the purpose of doing this is? 

If its to popularize vintage more (in order of importance):
1. You need someone with the time and willpower to run this effectively.  Posting deck lists/videos/updates, and creating the schedule/hype.  If the person organizing it is saying "I would only be able to do weekends" that's probably an issue.
2. Have a time that everyone in the league can meet that is attractive to watchers.  I'd imagine Mon-Thurs nights are probably the only times that people are going to want to sit down and watch a few hours of magic.
3. You need commentary, and good commentary.  We don't have the allure of pro players when someone tunes in you need something to keep them there that they can't get other places.  Better commentary is the biggest selling point of this league over the VSL.  These need to be people that know the format well, sociable enough to keep conversation going, and intelligent enough for people to want to hear what they have to say. 
4. You really need bigger names.  Nothing against the people that you listed, but I don't think many people know who they are outside of maybe a few posts on this forum.  Even you don't know what some of their real names are... That's kind of a problem in drawing in outside attention when half the people you are talking about having aren't even known by Vintage players themselves.
5. You need a variety of types players.  If every match is crazy stuff like Inferno Titan vs Knight of the Reliquary, not only is it not going to be indicative of the format, but the idea is draw people into watching some Vintage, not standard.
6. You should really consider using MODO.  As awful of a program it is, its still a lot more spectator friendly than the moving images, and the rules are built in so you won't have any of those issues arising.

Is it to just to get some games in?  I don't think you need to be overly formal at all for this.  Just record some games, and post the deck lists / results.  I'm sure some people would enjoy watching them.

[nedleeds]

Is WotC squirrely about people streaming Cockatrice? If so you might be dead in the water ... if Twitch snap bans you. I suppose you could stream to You Tube as well. If anyone were to do it, the gap while they run the Scryland Super League would be a good time to do it. Anyone interested in eternal won't be watching Llanowar Elf into Courser of Kruphix for 10 weeks.

[msg67183]

I'm not trying to have people watch this over the VSL, I want people to enjoy this as well as the VSL.
The "metagame" will be diverse, that's the reason I'm picking people myself as I know mostly what decks the players play. I deffinietly wanted to include Brain, Guli and Stormanimagus as they are the biggest innovators that I have seen and I think that would be great for the League.
I'm hoping to get some big names into the league, might be getting Nick Detwiler if he is available.

[msg67183]

Also, just because the VSL does their matches all in one night doesn't mean we have to, all I said is I am only available on weekends, the other players can play during the week if that is more convenient for them. It might be better to have them split up to one match per night anyway so the viewer isn't sitting there for hours watching.

[wappla]

sounds like a great idea

Cockatrice is a easy way for people to enter into the format, and perhaps the easiest way to test new ideas. Further establishing a culture of high level play on the medium is beneficial for Vintage.

would be interested in playing if needed.

[Stormanimagus]

I would be interested in doing this as long as I could schedule doable times for my matches. I am very busy as a music teacher and I need some flexibility for my schedule. I'd be happy to show off decks and cards that are all but non-existent on the VSL (Thalia and Stony Silence *cough cough*). It's funny, when watching Randy Beuhler get all but demolished by Efro yesterday I couldn't help but think "man he probably would have had far more game in all three of these matches if he had had the sack to choose Stone-Cold Humans ." Seriously, we've already seen the belcher deck die horrendous deaths on multiple occasions and Oath has often just been very meh vs. the field (particularly these weird untuned Oath lists). Why do the VSL players still think these decks are a good meta call? Is it stubbornness or just ignorance of other things out there that could be solid? If I expected this sort of field I'd be on either Stone-Cold Humans, Espresso Shops, or even 2-Mentor Control in a heartbeat. Heck, even a TPS list with Defense Grid could be solid vs. all the blue we're seeing. BUG Fish could also have some game but it would need to be designed very very carefully.

I'd be happy to play in a Cockatrice tournament because I'm not above playing ANY deck. I do have favorites, but that's generally because I think they are well positioned and players still don't sideboard hate them out enough.

-Storm

[msg67183]

I would be interested in doing this as long as I could schedule doable times for my matches. I am very busy as a music teacher and I need some flexibility for my schedule. I'd be happy to show off decks and cards that are all but non-existent on the VSL (Thalia and Stony Silence *cough cough*). It's funny, when watching Randy Beuhler get all but demolished by Efro yesterday I couldn't help but think "man he probably would have had far more game in all three of these matches if he had had the sack to choose Stone-Cold Humans ." Seriously, we've already seen the belcher deck die horrendous deaths on multiple occasions and Oath has often just been very meh vs. the field (particularly these weird untuned Oath lists). Why do the VSL players still think these decks are a good meta call? Is it stubbornness or just ignorance of other things out there that could be solid? If I expected this sort of field I'd be on either Stone-Cold Humans, Espresso Shops, or even 2-Mentor Control in a heartbeat. Heck, even a TPS list with Defense Grid could be solid vs. all the blue we're seeing. BUG Fish could also have some game but it would need to be designed very very carefully.

I'd be happy to play in a Cockatrice tournament because I'm not above playing ANY deck. I do have favorites, but that's generally because I think they are well positioned and players still don't sideboard hate them out enough.

-Storm

Storm, I'd love to have you in the League. And that's what I plan on doing, set up who plays who during what week, then those players decide for themselves when they will play during that week.
I'm hoping to get people to stream the matches.

You have knowledge of that don't you Storm? Could you assist with that?

[Stormanimagus]

I would be interested in doing this as long as I could schedule doable times for my matches. I am very busy as a music teacher and I need some flexibility for my schedule. I'd be happy to show off decks and cards that are all but non-existent on the VSL (Thalia and Stony Silence *cough cough*). It's funny, when watching Randy Beuhler get all but demolished by Efro yesterday I couldn't help but think "man he probably would have had far more game in all three of these matches if he had had the sack to choose Stone-Cold Humans ." Seriously, we've already seen the belcher deck die horrendous deaths on multiple occasions and Oath has often just been very meh vs. the field (particularly these weird untuned Oath lists). Why do the VSL players still think these decks are a good meta call? Is it stubbornness or just ignorance of other things out there that could be solid? If I expected this sort of field I'd be on either Stone-Cold Humans, Espresso Shops, or even 2-Mentor Control in a heartbeat. Heck, even a TPS list with Defense Grid could be solid vs. all the blue we're seeing. BUG Fish could also have some game but it would need to be designed very very carefully.

I'd be happy to play in a Cockatrice tournament because I'm not above playing ANY deck. I do have favorites, but that's generally because I think they are well positioned and players still don't sideboard hate them out enough.

-Storm

Storm, I'd love to have you in the League. And that's what I plan on doing, set up who plays who during what week, then those players decide for themselves when they will play during that week.
I'm hoping to get people to stream the matches.

You have knowledge of that don't you Storm? Could you assist with that?

Guli knows how to Twitch the matches better than I. I will drop him a line to see how we can set things up with dual commentators perhaps kinda like the VSL. 2 Commentators who aren't the players is a really good formula that I don't think we should hesitate to swipe from the VSL.

-Storm

[msg67183]

I would love to have Guli in the league as well. Between you, Guli and Brian Kelly we will have so much innovation for the format.

If Guli agrees to participate, the player base so far will be:

Myself
Brian Kelly
James Saltsman
Stormanimagus
Guli

I have had others tell me they would love to play and others that said if they cant play that they would love to be commentators.
I want to limit it to 10 players. The only issue I see with having matches whenever the players choose is the streaming issue. I would love everything to be streamed as well as put on YouTube.

[Stormanimagus]

If we can agree to a time I can probably make it work. As long as there is some lead time and we can discuss the streaming time that would work best for everyone I think we can make this work. Perhaps we could do Wednesday Night around 9:30 PM EST? I am on the West Coast and don't get out of work til about 5:30 on Wednesdays so the soonest I could be home for such a thing would be about 6:30 PST which is 9:30 EST. Does 9:30 EST work for folks? I know that's a tad late as a start time, but hopefully we'd be done by around 12:30 or 1 AM EST? You could start earlier too if I was just guaranteed to not have my match start until 6:30 PST at the earliest.

-Storm

[msg67183]

If we can agree to a time I can probably make it work. As long as there is some lead time and we can discuss the streaming time that would work best for everyone I think we can make this work. Perhaps we could do Wednesday Night around 9:30 PM EST? I am on the West Coast and don't get out of work til about 5:30 on Wednesdays so the soonest I could be home for such a thing would be about 6:30 PST which is 9:30 EST. Does 9:30 EST work for folks? I know that's a tad late as a start time, but hopefully we'd be done by around 12:30 or 1 AM EST? You could start earlier too if I was just guaranteed to not have my match start until 6:30 PST at the earliest.

-Storm

My issue is I'm only available on weekends. That's why I thought it would be good to let the players decide between themselves when they will play, then tell the person recording the match.
Also to note, Cocmatrice already records matches so if there is a way to record a recorded match that would make things easier I would think.

[MaximumCDawg]

I could be interested in this. 

But I would run insane decks that have no bearing on the Vintage metagame.

[xouman]

It would be nice to have an idea about schedules. Those 5 difference hours between Europe and America (not to speak about the difference with other continents) could be a problem finding diversity. And since most people have responsibilities, it could be hard to find a more or less static timespan to play.

One idea about comments is that both players could comment the match just after they played. Nobody better at understanding plays as the same player who did them. While that's impossible to be done in real time, it could be done short after the match and upload the game with comments. Of course there are lots of disadvantages there, but I'm not sure how often would you get 2 commentators for every match.

[brianpk80]

I could be interested in this. 

But I would run insane decks that have no bearing on the Vintage metagame.

Any deck appearing in any Vintage event anywhere has bearing on the metagame. 

[Twaun007]

I could be interested in this. 

But I would run insane decks that have no bearing on the Vintage metagame.

Any deck appearing in any Vintage event anywhere has bearing on the metagame. 

I suppose you're right



 

[brianpk80]

Perfect way to attack through Mentor tokens with that Volcanic Island-walk.   Just watch out for Gush! 

[msg67183]

So far the first Season of The Mana Drain Vintage League consists of:

Myself
Brian Kelly
James Saltsman
Sean Ottaway
Kael Williams
Stormanimagus
Maximum C Dawg
Wappla

Only 2 Slots left! Hurry in and let me know if you are interested.

[vartemis]

Will the lack of HD pics matter for recording? Wizards C&D'd mtgimage.com, so only the stuff being scraped from gatherer works now, unless you host all the images locally.

[DaveKap]

I'm interested if there's still a spot left.