TheManaDrain.com
April 09, 2020, 05:38:30 am *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News:
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: [1]
  Print  
Author Topic: Rich Shay's Fenton Oath  (Read 6679 times)
evouga
Basic User
**
Posts: 537


View Profile Email
« on: April 30, 2015, 12:52:42 pm »

Here is Rich Shay's Oath deck from the VSL:

3 Griselbrand
4 Oath of Druids
3 Show and Tell
1 Voltaic Key
1 Time Vault

4 Preordain
1 Time Walk
2 Thoughtseize
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
2 Misdirection
2 Flusterstorm
1 Dig Through Time
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Memory's Journey
1 Brainstorm

1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Forbidden Orchard
1 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Island

Sideboard
2 Pithing Needle
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Nature's Claim
1 Forest
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Strip Mine


There are several things I really like about this deck: first, the 3x Griselbrand and 3x Show and Tell gives it a consistency and resilience not found in other Oath builds that mix in some Emrakuls, or dubious additional quasi-dead cards like Omniscience. 3x maindeck Show and Tell might seem high, but since opposing blue decks usually must respect it as a must-counter threat it can be used to draw out counterspells in a pinch.

The post-Griselbrand plan is to cast Time Walk and/or assemble Vault+Key and take enough extra turns to kill the opponent. Memory's Journey looks incredibly janky but is an essential part of this plan, without which the deck cannot reliably race Dredge, Mentor, or an opposing Jace. (This also means that the deck is more reliant on the graveyard than it appears at first glance, though I've noticed that opponents sideboard in graveyard hate less often than they probably should.)

However the deck has a few weaknesses:

1. Only one win condition. This is especially awkward if the opponent Shows and Tells an Emrakul, as even with infinite turns the deck has no way to win other than to hope the opponent concedes.
2. Heavy reliance on Time Walk, or Vault+Key, to win the game after Griselbrand enters play. Often games are lost if Griselbrand arrives after you're already low on life, and facing a large Monk/Zombie army that forces Griselbrand to play defense. You must hope to draw Time Walk before the opponent finds removal.

Are there any suggestions for shoring up these weaknesses? I've seen some builds run Elesh Norn in the sideboard, which certainly is an intriguing solution to the stalemate issue, especially vs Dredge and Mentor.
Logged
Ozymandias
Basic User
**
Posts: 117


View Profile
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2015, 01:47:03 pm »

A single Jace or Tezzeret in the place of a Preordain could go a long way.
Logged
Anusien
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 3669


Anusien
View Profile
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2015, 01:50:11 pm »

Is there any evidence that these weaknesses are actually that bad? It's true that those are potential issues, but before you go changing the deck to fix them (and making the games where those weaknesses *don't* come up worse), how often do you lose because of it?
Logged

Magic Level 3 Judge
Southern USA Regional Coordinator

Quote from: H.L. Mencken
The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.
Prospero
Aequitas
Administrator
Basic User
*****
Posts: 4854



View Profile
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2015, 01:57:26 pm »

Is there any evidence that these weaknesses are actually that bad? It's true that those are potential issues, but before you go changing the deck to fix them (and making the games where those weaknesses *don't* come up worse), how often do you lose because of it?

This.  Excellent point.

The amount of thought and effort that went into this list is tremendous.  I know, first-hand, just how much Greg put into this list.

And before we go changing things, let's look at Greg's results first.  He has been kicking ass and taking names for a while now, and is on fire as of late.  He won the last Top Deck Games event, top four'd Eternal Extravaganza 2 and has performed in local events.  This is in the last two months.  He's a monster. 

Try the list, see where it goes, but I think you'll find that the list, as currently comprised, is excellent in this metagame.
Logged

"I’ll break my staff,
Bury it certain fathoms in the earth,
And deeper than did ever plummet sound
I’ll drown my book."

The Return of Superman

Prospero's Art Collection
nedleeds
Tournament Organizers
Basic User
**
Posts: 399


View Profile
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2015, 03:53:30 pm »

Cutting a Preordain in a 15 land deck that doesn't have Ponder seems like a bad idea. You're about 32% to have one and only one land, about 65% to have 1 or 2 lands. Preordain and the Quad Laser Missteps to protect them probably help find land number two or green quite a bit. I might even argue for Ponder which is decent cantrip for enabling 2 card combos.
Logged
evouga
Basic User
**
Posts: 537


View Profile Email
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2015, 04:49:39 pm »

Is there any evidence that these weaknesses are actually that bad? It's true that those are potential issues, but before you go changing the deck to fix them (and making the games where those weaknesses *don't* come up worse), how often do you lose because of it?

This.  Excellent point.

The amount of thought and effort that went into this list is tremendous.  I know, first-hand, just how much Greg put into this list.

And before we go changing things, let's look at Greg's results first.  He has been kicking ass and taking names for a while now, and is on fire as of late.  He won the last Top Deck Games event, top four'd Eternal Extravaganza 2 and has performed in local events.  This is in the last two months.  He's a monster. 

Try the list, see where it goes, but I think you'll find that the list, as currently comprised, is excellent in this metagame.

Well, I bring these up not because they are theoretical concerns, but because I've observed them as weaknesses that arise in practice, over the course of piloting the deck (admittedly, only in ~30 matches) on MTGO.

It's possible I'm playing the deck incorrectly, but I do seem to encounter situations where I can't attack, and can't draw 7, with some regularity when playing against Mentor decks.
Logged
HankZhong
Basic User
**
Posts: 4


View Profile Email
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2015, 08:48:20 am »

Try an emrakul in place of a griselbrand. With the death of storm, and dearth of other combo decks, oathing up an emrakul is not that bad. And the following turn you can oath up griselbrand to seal the deal. Omniscience looks awful on paper, but in practice it gets around containment priest and allows you to truly "combo" off regradless of your life total, which seems to be an issue vs. mentor. Worst case, they pitch to FOW.

Vault Key is what is truly out of place in an oath deck, yes you will get those random wins by assembly vault key early, but if you have griselbrand, you don't really need the vault key to win. Too many times they are just completely dead draws that do nothing in this deck (and there are ALOT of dead draws in this deck already).

Lastly, dig is absurd, and 1 copy is just not enough.

PS mox ruby and pearl are secretly the worst cards in this card, yawg will is also mediocre until you already have griselbrand out.

Logged
PeAcH
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 472



View Profile
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2015, 04:12:49 pm »

Quote
Lastly, dig is absurd, and 1 copy is just not enough.

@HankZhong

I played the build to a Top2 in the LCV March edition and DTT is the worst card in the deck by far.

I sided it out all the time. Once The Black Lord is out, you donīt need DTT. The deck is extremely resilant and you only want to survive until you activate Oath or S&T FTW.

Logged

"Your deed cannot be undone. You, however, can be."

@Peachmtg
Zieby
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 267


One who goes unpunished, never learns.

ajjbos@hotmail.com ajjbos
View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2015, 07:34:47 am »

A question:
Why is Memory's Journey in this deck, I can not understand the purpose of it.
- Infinit turns with 3 cards in your library means nothing.
- This deck has not the ability to Combo out in one turn as the old Tyrant Oath decks

Is it pure there for the reason that you can suffle 3 cards that where milled during oathing back into your deck (mainly this would be Time Walk, Vault and Key and Y-Will).

If it is only for this purpose the card is in the deck, is there not a better card that does something on its own...
Or is the above mentioned reason of that importance, that the fact it is dead 90% of the time you draw it something you take for granted?

Thank you inadvance for your thoughts behind this cards inclusion,

Greetz Arjan
Logged

Quote from:  Mr. Chapin
"Rogue is spelled with the "g" before the "u." Rouge is a cosmetic used to color the cheeks and emphasize the cheekbones.
Rogue is a deck that isn't mainstream/widely played."

Member of Team R&D: Go beyond Synergy and enter Poetry

Founder of "The Dutch Vintage Tournament Series"
youhavenogame
Basic User
**
Posts: 113


View Profile
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2015, 08:07:29 am »

The post-Griselbrand plan is to cast Time Walk and/or assemble Vault+Key and take enough extra turns to kill the opponent. Memory's Journey looks incredibly janky but is an essential part of this plan, without which the deck cannot reliably race Dredge, Mentor, or an opposing Jace. (This also means that the deck is more reliant on the graveyard than it appears at first glance, though I've noticed that opponents sideboard in graveyard hate less often than they probably should.)

Don't most people board in Grafdiggers Cage anyway?


However the deck has a few weaknesses:

1. Only one win condition. This is especially awkward if the opponent Shows and Tells an Emrakul, as even with infinite turns the deck has no way to win other than to hope the opponent concedes.
2. Heavy reliance on Time Walk, or Vault+Key, to win the game after Griselbrand enters play. Often games are lost if Griselbrand arrives after you're already low on life, and facing a large Monk/Zombie army that forces Griselbrand to play defense. You must hope to draw Time Walk before the opponent finds removal.

Are there any suggestions for shoring up these weaknesses? I've seen some builds run Elesh Norn in the sideboard, which certainly is an intriguing solution to the stalemate issue, especially vs Dredge and Mentor.

1. It rarely takes more than one Griselbrand to install a lightbulb. Emrakul is played by less than 1% of the metagame and any other creature in the format is a dog to Grisel usually, and especially if you take infinite turns. If you are really scared I'd suggest to run 1 Jace TMS, probably in place of 1 Misdirection. Early Jace is often as devastating as early Gris and later in the game it adds additional utility. Also, I'm not sure if you need 2 Misdirections on Modo, as there are way more Red Blasts running around than Decays. I like 1 as a target to tutor for and random "got your Recall, bro" blowouts.
2. I wouldn't call that heavy reliance on certain cards but rather natural randomness. If a Mentor deck explodes before you get Grisel into play then variance is just not on your side. In my experience, Oath either explodes in the first 2-3 turns or gets the crap beaten out of it. There is hardly a middle ground, because, as you already pointed out, if you take too much time to assemble your Demon you fall behind on life total. The problem you describe has something to do with consistency in my book, and decks like Mentor and Dredge are more reliable to execute their plan than Oath is. On the other hand you have a couple of ways to combo out early. Maybe you have to mulligan more aggressively, because I doubt that you can control the midgame against decks with Gush and Dig.


Regarding Dig in Oath:
The problem is that it's hard to reach the requirement for Dig unless you already oathed once, making it clunky, unreliable and kind of win-more. One copy sounds like the correct amount to me.
Logged
Anusien
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 3669


Anusien
View Profile
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2015, 12:02:41 pm »

Quote
Lastly, dig is absurd, and 1 copy is just not enough.
@HankZhong

I played the build to a Top2 in the LCV March edition and DTT is the worst card in the deck by far.

I sided it out all the time. Once The Black Lord is out, you donīt need DTT. The deck is extremely resilant and you only want to survive until you activate Oath or S&T FTW.
Dig Through Time is quickly becoming one of my favorite cards to draw in any attrition based matchup. It's significantly better than Treasure Cruise. If you have high variance between your cards (as this deck does), the choice of cards is so incredibly powerful. It's much harder to get a bad Dig than a bad Treasure Cruise.
Logged

Magic Level 3 Judge
Southern USA Regional Coordinator

Quote from: H.L. Mencken
The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.
evouga
Basic User
**
Posts: 537


View Profile Email
« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2015, 12:52:06 pm »

A question:
Why is Memory's Journey in this deck, I can not understand the purpose of it.
- Infinit turns with 3 cards in your library means nothing.
- This deck has not the ability to Combo out in one turn as the old Tyrant Oath decks

Is it pure there for the reason that you can suffle 3 cards that where milled during oathing back into your deck (mainly this would be Time Walk, Vault and Key and Y-Will).

If it is only for this purpose the card is in the deck, is there not a better card that does something on its own...
Or is the above mentioned reason of that importance, that the fact it is dead 90% of the time you draw it something you take for granted?

Thank you inadvance for your thoughts behind this cards inclusion,

Greetz Arjan

Yes, that is the purpose (although I would shuffle in only Time Walk and Will). It is not uncommon for Griselbrand to fail to win the game on his own, when the opponent is threatening to counterattack for lethal damage, has an active Jace, has a summoning-sick Kuldotha Forgemaster, etc etc. In these cases winning requires reliably assembling extra turns.

Also Memory's Journey can steal Game 1s from Dredge, though of course that is only a minor consideration.
Logged
evouga
Basic User
**
Posts: 537


View Profile Email
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2015, 12:56:55 pm »

Quote
Lastly, dig is absurd, and 1 copy is just not enough.
@HankZhong

I played the build to a Top2 in the LCV March edition and DTT is the worst card in the deck by far.

I sided it out all the time. Once The Black Lord is out, you donīt need DTT. The deck is extremely resilant and you only want to survive until you activate Oath or S&T FTW.
Dig Through Time is quickly becoming one of my favorite cards to draw in any attrition based matchup. It's significantly better than Treasure Cruise. If you have high variance between your cards (as this deck does), the choice of cards is so incredibly powerful. It's much harder to get a bad Dig than a bad Treasure Cruise.

I agree with Youhavenogame that Oath is not built to best use the Delve cards, due to its large mana base and lack of Gush,
Logged
Greg
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 341



View Profile
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2015, 07:16:25 pm »

Lastly, dig is absurd, and 1 copy is just not enough.

I played the build to a Top2 in the LCV March edition and DTT is the worst card in the deck by far. I sided it out all the time.

Isn't it interesting how two different players, both having actually piloted the deck, are having completely inverse yet authoritative conclusions about the same card?

I wholeheartedly agree with both of them, by the way. Smile

The list that I gave Rich Shay was one very specific iteration that I used in the Eternal Extravaganza event. That specific list had evolved from the previous event that I played in a week or two earlier at Top Deck Games. After Eternal Extravaganza, I altered a few miniature details in the deck for an event at Mark's Comics a week or two later. In the most recent event that I've played in, at Top Deck Games, the list was, again, slightly different. All four decklists differed to some small degree based on experiences and notions that I had. None of them were "correct" and none of them were "incorrect." Some of the decklists during this time had exactly one copy of Dig Through Time, while some had more than one copy, and others had zero.

The decklist posted above is a (very arbitrary) snapshot of an evolving idea. It's a small excerpt of an on-going exploration to learn more about the archetype. It's not permanently definitive. No list is.

Regarding Time Vault and Voltaic Key: I've made strong arguments as to why these two cards should not be in an Oath of Druids deck, showcased in the decklist that I gave Mark Tocco for his incredible Vintage Champs victory. I've also made strong arguments as to why these two cards absolutely should be in an Oath of Druids deck. Diversity is fun! There are positives and negatives for both including and omitting the "infinite turn" duo, which is true for any card, such as Dig Through Time. I would strongly encourage people to come to their own conclusions.
Logged
Zieby
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 267


One who goes unpunished, never learns.

ajjbos@hotmail.com ajjbos
View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2015, 06:32:12 am »

A question:

Yes, that is the purpose (although I would shuffle in only Time Walk and Will). It is not uncommon for Griselbrand to fail to win the game on his own, when the opponent is threatening to counterattack for lethal damage, has an active Jace, has a summoning-sick Kuldotha Forgemaster, etc etc. In these cases winning requires reliably assembling extra turns.

Also Memory's Journey can steal Game 1s from Dredge, though of course that is only a minor consideration.

Thank you for your answer, but at that time, is Geae's Blessing not strictly better?
No mana involved, can't be countered (ok stifle, but that sees hardly play) and when in your hand, it accomplish the same and draws a card.

The only downsite is that it is not blue.
Logged

Quote from:  Mr. Chapin
"Rogue is spelled with the "g" before the "u." Rouge is a cosmetic used to color the cheeks and emphasize the cheekbones.
Rogue is a deck that isn't mainstream/widely played."

Member of Team R&D: Go beyond Synergy and enter Poetry

Founder of "The Dutch Vintage Tournament Series"
Chubby Rain
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 742



View Profile Email
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2015, 10:13:11 am »

-Snip-

Excellent post, Greg! Continued success comes (in part) from the ability to adapt to changing metagames and that is something you have done admirably since I began playing Vintage two years ago or so.



Thank you for your answer, but at that time, is Geae's Blessing not strictly better?
No mana involved, can't be countered (ok stifle, but that sees hardly play) and when in your hand, it accomplish the same and draws a card.

The only downsite is that it is not blue.

Careful with the term "strictly better." The major differences between the two are:
1) Journey is blue.
2) Journey hits 6 cards potentially instead of 3 cards.
3) Journey is an instant.
4) Gaea's Blessing's ability cannot be easily countered.
5) Gaea's Blessing's ability is not optional.
6) Gaea's Blessing draws a card.

These differences give these cards a set of unique pros and cons: the fact that Journey is blue is quite relevant in a deck with 4 Force and 2 Misdirection; being able to hit 6 cards instead of 3 is more valuable against Dredge and Delve spells, and Instant speed is valuable in responding to Snapcaster Mage and Yawgmoth's Will.

This is not meant to be an exhaustive list but to emphasize that there are differences between the two. Like Greg, I think it best if you test and come to your own conclusions.
Logged

"Why are we making bad decks? I mean, honestly, what is our reason for doing this?"

"Is this a Vintage deck or a Cube deck?" "Is it sad that you have to ask?"

"Is that a draft deck?" "Why do people keep asking that?"

Random conversations...
evouga
Basic User
**
Posts: 537


View Profile Email
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2015, 11:17:56 am »

Certainly swapping in Gaea's Blessing is reasonable and worth testing, however IMO the fact that Blessing is not optional is not a trivial change: it greatly reduces the frequency of a post-Oath explosive Will.
Logged
Will
Veritas
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 465


Wmagzoo7
View Profile
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2015, 11:28:12 am »

As others have said, Blessing makes Yawgmoth's Will much less explosive at times. Memory's Journey allows for some really interesting scenarios to take place which let you win from positions which otherwise are not possible. In most games, Memory's Journey is one of if not the worst card in the deck, however when it is good, it is like no other card.

Like Greg, I think it best if you test and come to your own conclusions.

Isn't it always? Smile I think that this should be an approach taken for every single deck in every format. There is almost never a "Correct" list for all metagames because your deck should be a byproduct of each specific metagame.
Logged

The artist formerly known as Wmagzoo7

"If one does not know to which port one is sailing, no wind is favorable" - Seneca
Pages: [1]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.077 seconds with 21 queries.