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Author Topic: [ORG]Jace,Vryn's Prodigy//Jace, Telepath Unbound  (Read 27048 times)
Saya
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« on: June 14, 2015, 04:22:25 am »



Now we have 6th Jace - childhood's one.

The first one,Jace Beleren from Lorwyn,did only draw.In vintage a few landstill control decks played it.
The mindsculptor was kinda overpowered,banned in multiple formats.It's a key card of vintage blue control.Recently,though,it slightly decline because of token creatures, delve draws and Dack.
After that one we saw 3 cards named Jace(Memory Adept,Architect of Thought and the Living Guildpact),but they aren't played outside standard since they are just lower than mindsculptor.

In my opinion,Dark Confidant is more similar to Jace,Vryn's Prodigy//Jace, Telepath Unbound than planeswalkers above - Their costs are both (1)(C).Do nothing at the turn when they comes to field.Continual Advantage etc.

Consequently I think this card has potential to work in vintage since its flipping condition is pretty easy. Any thoughts?
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xouman
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« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2015, 05:54:48 am »

Could be tried, but I'd be surprised it becomes a vintage staple. Let's put the text:

Jace, Vryn's Prodigy    1U
Legendary Creature - Human Wizard
T: Draw a card, then discard a card. If there are five or more cards in your graveyard, exile Jace, Vryn''s Prodigy, then return him to the battefield transformed under his owner's control.
illus. # 60/272
0/2


It's not card advantage like confidant, but filtering. Not the worst thing in the world, but we are not playing other loot effects than fayden, and that's because it filters double and because it gets permanents advantage. It dies to most damage, and cannot deliver any. It's not hard to flip, specially with fetches and cantrips. Could be available maybe at first or second activation, which is pretty good.


Jace, Telepath Unbound
Planeswalker - Jace
+1: Up to one target creature gets -2/-0 until your next turn.
-3: You may cast target instant or sorcery card from your graveyard this turn. If that card would be put into your graveyard this turn, exile it instead.
-9: You get an emblem with "Whenever you cast a spell, target opponent puts the top five cards of his or her library into his or her graveyard".
illus. # 60/272
5

First ability is poor. Really.

Second ability is of course more interesting. It looks slightly better than snapcaster, because probably you can play spells by their alternative costs (namely gush or fow), but pretty close to snapcaster nevertheless. And it's taking a lot of the loyalty. Man, that sucks!

Third ability does not look like a game breaker in a non-dedicated deck. But in the right deck it's like a tendrils! It can look as: "play 9-10 spells and win the game". So in a mentor deck, which already should provide spells chaining, can be really good.


Where do you want this card? The filter ability is nice, but it's not really repeatable since it's not optional to flip. Being a human makes him a nice option in human decks with caverns, namely mentor. Or even delver, since it's pretty cheap at T1.

The first ability is bad in any deck. Maybe not so bad in a deck with lots of planeswalkers, because they will survive more, but it's bad.

The second ability is nice in any deck with instants or sorceries. Maybe a deck with gushes seems the best positioned.

The third ability, as said, wants a deck with lots of cheap spells and specially cantrips.


So overall, a delver o mentor deck seem the best targets for this card, probably mentor even better since the first ability should be better, and since it often plays caverns jace can be uncounterable. Is it good enough to be played? Well, it's a nice alternative win condition, specially against something like moat or so. I'd play 1, at the worst case is a sorcery snapcaster that can be reused. And snapcaster is good.
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vaughnbros
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« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2015, 09:45:33 am »

Nissa is the only decent Walker and also nearly impossible to flip.  The Jace is effectively Merfolk looter transforms into some weird version of Snapcaster so I don't think it's completely unplayable.  The chandra should be the easiest to flip and does provide some burn power, but shock really?  Wizards definitely wanted to tread lightly with these.
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« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2015, 10:12:25 am »

I really don't think any of these are playable.  Chandra at least had potential in Modern...if she were modern legal.  Even there, she'd be meh.  In vintage, none of these guys are worth a hoot.  There are much better versions of these PWs with no stipulations (except SLIGHTLY higher cost) already.
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« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2015, 12:08:04 pm »

There are much better versions of these PWs with no stipulations (except SLIGHTLY higher cost) already.

Well 2 mana on the Jace is the cheapest we've ever seen a planeswalker that isn't complete garbage (Tibalt was lols).  In the end I think its more comparable to snapcaster than to a planeswalker.  1 turn delayed snappy in exchange for the potential of getting a second activation, and allowing you to cycle 1 card.  Of course it would have had way more potential if flipping it was a may.
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TheWhiteDragon
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« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2015, 01:01:35 pm »

There are much better versions of these PWs with no stipulations (except SLIGHTLY higher cost) already.

Well 2 mana on the Jace is the cheapest we've ever seen a planeswalker that isn't complete garbage (Tibalt was lols).  In the end I think its more comparable to snapcaster than to a planeswalker.  1 turn delayed snappy in exchange for the potential of getting a second activation, and allowing you to cycle 1 card.  Of course it would have had way more potential if flipping it was a may.

Cheapest, but the -2 mana comes at the cost of being summoning sick, boltable (JtMS can +2 off the bat), killed by creature removal (path, dismember, etc), and if you are dropping him on turn 1 or 2, you probably don't have 5 cards in the grave to flip him anyway.  Hell, he's also a dog to leyline of the void (if your main strategy suffers against leyline anyway). AND if you do actually flip him, his abilities are just terrible.  Snapcaster at least provides a 2/1 body and the element of surprise. This guy loses his body (which is pitiful anyway) and broadcasts what you plan to do anyway.

The other PW kids are just terrible too.  As I said, only in modern could the Chandra one be worth a hoot.
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MaximumCDawg
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« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2015, 11:36:11 am »

I hesitate to call Baby Jace "bad," but I have a hard time seeing how it's good.  

The biggest question in my head is whether he is better or worse than Merfolk Looter.  When you initially cast him, that's exactly what he is, though he does lack the ability to swing for 1 in a pinch.  Then, if you loot when you're mostly at threshold, he flips -- you have no choice about this.  Is that a good thing?

I mean, on the one hand, if Looter said "if this is the second time you activated this ability, sacrifice this and target card in your yard gains Flashback until end of turn," that's not terrible.  I don't think.  I can see dropping Baby Jace, letting him suck on the pacifier a few turns, and then being allowed to recast a Gush or something off him.  The loot ensures you have targets for his regrow ability.  So, he loots once or twice, and then he "draws" you an extra card because he's flipped and can regrow something he just looted.  

On the other hand, once you've accomplished this sequence, Jace is pretty piss-poor.  He flashes back one card.  Then, you have to spend a turn doing nothing with his +1 ability to do it again.  At that point, you can cash him in to flash back again, or you can keep doing nothing to ramp him up and flash something back once every four turns.  

Like I said, for me, this turns into "would you play Merfolk Looter if it also had a Flashback ability," and I'm totally unsure what the answer is.  Here's some more random thoughts:

1. Baby Jace is a turn 1 play like Dark Confidant or Pyromancer.
2. Baby Jace eats Lightning Bolts and Red Elemental Blasts.
3. Baby Jace cuts you off Daddy Jace if you have him flipped.  Or, put a different way, Daddy Jace consumes his young if he arrives.  Can't have both.
4. The looting ability can probably be used twice in the early game and once by midgame (absent Delve) before he is forced to flip and lose the looting ability.
5. If he flips, almost by definition you have something in the yard to flashback.
6. Baby Jace is not a win condition, either by swinging OR by his ultimate.

Imagine you're sitting down and your opponent goes first turn Island, Mox, Baby Jace.  That's a legit first turn play.  Are you scared of that?  Well, turn 2 your opponent is going to loot and Jace is unlikely to flip.  Turn 3, he might flip.  You can't rely on whats in the graveyard to determine if flipping is bad, because he will get an extra loot before the flip.  The last loot will happen as part of the same ability flipping him, so you don't get priority in between the loot and Planeswalker Jace getting a chance to activate his -3.  

What's the worst that happens to you in this situation?  Well, probably they put a cheap cantrip or duress or something into the yard with Jace and then get to cast it.  What has been accomplished at this point?  They've seen two extra cards and got to "draw" one of them.  Is that good?  Is it comparable to just casting Brainstorm or Preordain?  

I'm having a hard time discounting or endorsing this guy.
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gkraigher
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« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2015, 01:26:29 pm »

The fact that jace has to be in play for a turn makes it worse than snapcaster Mage.  Not a bad card, but not vintage playable. 
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bactgudz
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« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2015, 01:42:03 pm »

The wording on him just drives me bananas...why didn't they just template him like flashback?  Now there are going to be some super weird corner cases where we are going to have to track that specific card through our hand if we cast something with buyback or it gets remanded or other such nonsense.  It's sylvan library bad.
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MaximumCDawg
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« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2015, 03:41:34 pm »

The wording on him just drives me bananas...why didn't they just template him like flashback?  Now there are going to be some super weird corner cases where we are going to have to track that specific card through our hand if we cast something with buyback or it gets remanded or other such nonsense.  It's sylvan library bad.

I don't think that's quite right.  If a card changes zones while it's subject to an effect, I do not think that the effect can track it to the new zone because it's a new object.  So if you -3'd your Babby Jace and then cast Regrowth on the same card, I think the Jace ability just kind of goes away.  

I think Sylvan Library is a little different because the same effect moves the cards into a new zone and then tells you to do something else with some of them from there.  To make the point more clear, if you use Words of Wilding or whatever to replace all of your draws under a Sylvan Library, the Library's attempt to put the cards back just fizzles because the replacement effect makes the cards change zones out from under Library.

EDIT: Found the citation:

603.6. Trigger events that involve objects changing zones are called "zone-change triggers." Many abilities with zone-change triggers attempt to do something to that object after it changes zones. During resolution, these abilities look for the object in the zone that it moved to. If the object is unable to be found in the zone it went to, the part of the ability attempting to do something to the object will fail to do anything. The ability could be unable to find the object because the object never entered the specified zone, because it left the zone before the ability resolved, or because it is in a zone that is hidden from a player, such as a library or an opponent’s hand. (This rule applies even if the object leaves the zone and returns again before the ability resolves.) The most common zone-change triggers are enters-the-battlefield triggers and leaves-the-battlefield triggers.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2015, 03:45:25 pm by MaximumCDawg » Logged
bactgudz
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« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2015, 03:57:29 pm »

The wording on him just drives me bananas...why didn't they just template him like flashback?  Now there are going to be some super weird corner cases where we are going to have to track that specific card through our hand if we cast something with buyback or it gets remanded or other such nonsense.  It's sylvan library bad.

I don't think that's quite right.  If a card changes zones while it's subject to an effect, I do not think that the effect can track it to the new zone because it's a new object.  So if you -3'd your Babby Jace and then cast Regrowth on the same card, I think the Jace ability just kind of goes away.  

I think Sylvan Library is a little different because the same effect moves the cards into a new zone and then tells you to do something else with some of them from there.  To make the point more clear, if you use Words of Wilding or whatever to replace all of your draws under a Sylvan Library, the Library's attempt to put the cards back just fizzles because the replacement effect makes the cards change zones out from under Library.

EDIT: Found the citation:

603.6. Trigger events that involve objects changing zones are called "zone-change triggers." Many abilities with zone-change triggers attempt to do something to that object after it changes zones. During resolution, these abilities look for the object in the zone that it moved to. If the object is unable to be found in the zone it went to, the part of the ability attempting to do something to the object will fail to do anything. The ability could be unable to find the object because the object never entered the specified zone, because it left the zone before the ability resolved, or because it is in a zone that is hidden from a player, such as a library or an opponent’s hand. (This rule applies even if the object leaves the zone and returns again before the ability resolves.) The most common zone-change triggers are enters-the-battlefield triggers and leaves-the-battlefield triggers.

The rule you quoted has nothing do do with Jace.  Clearly Jace's "exile it" clause will apply to it after it has changed zones since the next time it would go to the graveyard it must have moved out of the graveyard, that characteristic must be tracked to the card itself and is not a zone change trigger.
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Chubby Rain
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« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2015, 03:58:57 pm »

The wording on him just drives me bananas...why didn't they just template him like flashback?  Now there are going to be some super weird corner cases where we are going to have to track that specific card through our hand if we cast something with buyback or it gets remanded or other such nonsense.  It's sylvan library bad.

It's functionally similar to Yawgmoth's Will, which is a boon for the card when it comes to using alternative mana costs. I didn't like that part of Flashback when it first came out in Odyssey.  MDawg is right with regards to change of zones.

Edit: The cited rules text doesn't apply. The relevant text (in my nonjudge opinion) is

400.7. An object that moves from one zone to another becomes a new object with no memory of, or relation to, its previous existence. There are seven exceptions to this rule:
...
400.7d Abilities that trigger when an object moves from one zone to another (for example, “When
Rancor is put into a graveyard from the battlefield”) can find the new object that it became in
the zone it moved to when the ability triggered, if that zone is a public zone.
...
400.7f If an effect grants a nonland card an ability that allows it to be cast, that ability will continue
to apply to the new object that card became after it moved to the stack as a result of being cast
this way.

If the spell is put into a player's hand or library (private zones), Jace's ability loses track of it (I think - that rules text uses triggers and not replacement effects), but moving from the graveyard to the stack doesn't apply due to 400.7f.

Quote
The fact that jace has to be in play for a turn makes it worse than snapcaster Mage.  Not a bad card, but not vintage playable.

I don't know, the delay on this Jace along with the ability to use alternative mana costs makes it better against Workshops. It's still probably not enough to make it Vintage playable but that was my hope when I first saw the new Liliana - that this would enable undercosted Thorn-proof planeswalkers against Shops.

 
« Last Edit: June 15, 2015, 04:19:05 pm by Chubby Rain » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2015, 04:28:55 pm »

I know I probably sound like a dick so I'm just gonna send it in to cranial insertion for my own edification cause I'm still not satisfied.

There is no listed exception that seems to cover jace, the closest exception seems to be:
400.7f If an effect grants a nonland card an ability that allows it to be cast, that ability will continue to apply to the new object that card became after it moved to the stack as a result of being cast this way.

Which covers something quite similar, but not precisely the same, in Snapcaster giving a spell flashback.  Jace's -3 does not give a card in the graveyard an ability but rather changes the game rules allowing you to cast the spell.  So how does it remember to get exiled? It seems to be just changing the game rules around that object?
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Chubby Rain
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« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2015, 05:08:36 pm »

I know I probably sound like a dick so I'm just gonna send it in to cranial insertion for my own edification cause I'm still not satisfied.

No worries. I'm somewhat frustrated in that I can't find a better answer. It does seem that for practical reasons, if the card were to enter a private zone, the ability cannot be applied as you can't be sure it's the same card in most cases. Like if an opponent remands your gush and you have another gush in your hand, you would have to give your opponent that information in order to cast the other gush (that wouldn't be exiled).

As far as functionality, the cards wording is very similar to Sins of the Past but I can't find a ruling that covers these corner cases.
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MaximumCDawg
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« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2015, 05:15:22 pm »

Chubby Rain is correct here, and he found the rule that explains why Jace and Snapcaster and Flashback in general gets to work even though an ability loses track of an object when it changes zones.  If it were not for 400.7f, none of these kind of abilities would work because, as you point out, once you cast a spell it moves onto the stack and is a new object.

Absent this exception, or another one abilities lose track of cards when they change zones as a general principle.  They don't lose track when the ability itself moves the item there (imprint) just when the card ends up somewhere unexpected.
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vaughnbros
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« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2015, 05:30:07 pm »

There are much better versions of these PWs with no stipulations (except SLIGHTLY higher cost) already.

Well 2 mana on the Jace is the cheapest we've ever seen a planeswalker that isn't complete garbage (Tibalt was lols).  In the end I think its more comparable to snapcaster than to a planeswalker.  1 turn delayed snappy in exchange for the potential of getting a second activation, and allowing you to cycle 1 card.  Of course it would have had way more potential if flipping it was a may.

Cheapest, but the -2 mana comes at the cost of being summoning sick, boltable (JtMS can +2 off the bat), killed by creature removal (path, dismember, etc), and if you are dropping him on turn 1 or 2, you probably don't have 5 cards in the grave to flip him anyway.  Hell, he's also a dog to leyline of the void (if your main strategy suffers against leyline anyway). AND if you do actually flip him, his abilities are just terrible.  Snapcaster at least provides a 2/1 body and the element of surprise. This guy loses his body (which is pitiful anyway) and broadcasts what you plan to do anyway.

The other PW kids are just terrible too.  As I said, only in modern could the Chandra one be worth a hoot.

Yes it's a higher variance Snapcaster which I think is fine.  The more I look at this card the more I think it's legit.  The ability to cast Gush is obviously a major plus.  The fact that you don't have to pay +1U on the same turn, but do it on a previous turn is also a huge plus.  Then you add in cycling cards when your graveyard is empty another plus over Snapcaster.  Oh and potentially multiple activations... Yeah that's also a pretty big thing.  Lots of pluses compared to Snapcaster, even if there are also some minuses.  The cards seem to be on the same power level.  Of course snappy hasn't been particularly great recently.
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« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2015, 05:39:55 pm »

I don't agree that this is on the same power level as Snapcaster; that's going too far.  Snapcaster is a pinch blocker, can target and return countermagic or anything else, and has 2 power so he can legitimately punch through.

Baby Jace got created when Snapcaster and Merfolk Looter had a night of passion and romance, and I don't know that I like their child better than both parents.  He's really hard to get a good judgment on.
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« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2015, 10:12:35 pm »

Humans and Merfolk don't make good babies. Best you can hope for is a bangin' mermaid like Ariel...instead we get this fugly gimp of a planeswalker.  Just sayin...
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diopter
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« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2015, 10:47:50 pm »

Replaying Gush without playing green is HUGE game. The single Loot you get is not to be discounted either.

Lightning Bolt is a weakness but imagine you are the Bolt-wielding player facing this and Delver or Mentor simultaneously - most times they have to kill the other creature and this lets you reload reliably.

Definitely fills a hole in the Delver builds that I'm trying to solve - getting your dudebeatz killed and needing to dig towards Gush #2.

I'm a huge fan. The shell has to be right but it has insane potential.
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« Reply #19 on: June 21, 2015, 03:14:10 pm »

Pitching Anger to Dack or something lets him transform the same turn you drop him, at which point he pays for himself if you -3 targeting a Gush. Since the decks that want a Blue Regrowth are already probably U/R, it makes sense that you'd have Mountains for him.
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« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2015, 12:14:35 pm »

That seems like an awful lot of work for a Snapcaster Mage.  If Jace works, it's gonna be on his own merits and not because he combos with Dack+Anger.
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« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2015, 12:29:34 pm »

That seems like an awful lot of work for a Snapcaster Mage.  If Jace works, it's gonna be on his own merits and not because he combos with Dack+Anger.

Merfolk looter is usually going to be better than Snapcaster in the early game so I don't see the issue.  My looter turning into a snappy late game is just pure sweetness.  I don't really know about anger that seems like too many hoops to jump through.
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bactgudz
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« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2015, 12:34:23 pm »

I do like the idea of revisiting anger-survival builds with this guy.
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Chubby Rain
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« Reply #23 on: July 24, 2015, 06:38:21 pm »

I have been very impressed with Baby Jace in testing. Two mana to get a couple of loots in the early game and then flashback a spell in the mid game has been quite solid. Dividing up the mana costs into two turns has been great especially in mana light decks. He feels like a better Snapcaster Mage in Gush decks.
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« Reply #24 on: July 25, 2015, 03:35:49 am »

I'm a bit surprised,since he lacks the flash factor and the beating, but i understand that early looting is deceptively powerful, and that can be reusable if is not answered.

I'm trying a deck with welders, jace could be an option...
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« Reply #25 on: July 27, 2015, 09:03:03 pm »

I've done a lot of critical thinking about this card and I have changed my mind.  Not only do I think this is Vintage playable, but I think it's a great eternal card!

here's why:

I like to compare cards, and the more I read this card, the more I realize it is the mythic version of snapcaster mage.  

1) If you eliminate all the noise on the card and focus on two abilities (and granted, it has 4) the card is a looter at least once, then recurs a instant/sorcery from your graveyard.  I never claimed to be a good blue mage, but in cases where you get to do both, it seems better than a 2/1 flash creature there.  

2) It fills up your graveyard with cards to lower the cost of delve cards (so in that way it adds mana to your pool).

3) It's got a perfect casting cost (avoids misstep in the mirror, is a creature to get around thorn of amyfest, and chalice for 2 is slightly harder than chalice for 1)

4) The card can flip as an instant.  It can block, flip, and remove itself from combat.  

5) the interation with gush is pretty awesome.  Same with the delve cards.  

6) his ultimate ability is amazing in control mirror matches, although this will almost never come into play for Vintage. 

Whether the card is better than snapcaster mage as a whole will take years to be seen.  But I do think it plays very nice with the other great blue cards in the format, inlcuding snapcaster mage.  

I will not be suprised if this card has some copies in the eternal weekend top 8s.  I think the card is also great in Legacy, namely Grixis and Mentor.

The strangest beauty of the card is how multiples work in tandem with each other.  An unflipped and a flipped copy, as long as you yard stays at or below 4 cards, work gloriously together.  
« Last Edit: July 28, 2015, 12:28:52 am by gkraigher » Logged
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« Reply #26 on: July 27, 2015, 09:42:18 pm »

I am not the only one who is bullish on this card - it's above 30 dollars on TCGplayer (though I admit that this is obviously not due to Vintage players)...
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« Reply #27 on: July 27, 2015, 09:57:21 pm »

Quote
I am not the only one who is bullish on this card - it's above 30 dollars on TCGplayer (though I admit that this is obviously not due to Vintage players)...
 
It turns out that this card is a powerhouse in standard. After playing with this guy in standard and seeing it tested in vintage, I've changed my mind on the card just the same as some other people in this thread. It's no JTMS, but it's a turn 1 play a frequent amount of the time.
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The Auriok have fought the metal hordes for so long now that knowing how to cripple them has become an instinct. -Metal Fatigue
gkraigher
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« Reply #28 on: July 27, 2015, 11:44:44 pm »

I am not the only one who is bullish on this card - it's above 30 dollars on TCGplayer (though I admit that this is obviously not due to Vintage players)...

I gotta give you credit where credit is due.  You were the first to test it and tell the forum it played much better than it looked.  

But to the discredit of all magic players (Chubby Rain excluded), and this includes myself, we didn't realize the obvious:  this is a 2 mana Jace Planeswalker, with the added luxury that one can have two copies in play.  Its opening price was $10, it's current price is $30,  and since this looks like the only printing the card will ever see, $30 now sounds cheap, especially considering it's playability in Legacy, Modern, and EDH.  

(for the record, I just bought my first copy of the card tonight.  I missed this one, and I'll only ever want one copy of this card for French EDH Narset.)
« Last Edit: July 27, 2015, 11:52:44 pm by gkraigher » Logged
xouman
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« Reply #29 on: July 28, 2015, 04:12:05 am »

Haven't tested it, but my gut says prodigy is better on the first couple of turns, but probably snapcaster is better after those turns. Flash cannot be understimated, snapcaster would be half as poweful without it, and a body to attack or chumplock (response to attacking revoker, confidant, unprowessed mentor, dack...). Reusing a misstep/reb/fluster is really common with snapcaster, and jace is not as good with that.

On the other hand looting is nice and flashback can be used more than once, which is a huge bonus, so if attacking with a 2/1 is negligible, go for jace.
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