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Author Topic: [ORG]Jace,Vryn's Prodigy//Jace, Telepath Unbound  (Read 27072 times)
brianpk80
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« Reply #30 on: July 28, 2015, 07:24:11 am »

Haven't tested it, but my gut says prodigy is better on the first couple of turns, but probably snapcaster is better after those turns. Flash cannot be understimated, snapcaster would be half as poweful without it, and a body to attack or chumplock (response to attacking revoker, confidant, unprowessed mentor, dack...). Reusing a misstep/reb/fluster is really common with snapcaster, and jace is not as good with that.

On the other hand looting is nice and flashback can be used more than once, which is a huge bonus, so if attacking with a 2/1 is negligible, go for jace.

This sums it up pretty well.  He is much better in the very early game, doing a Dack Fayden impersonation for a turn or two then flashing back something anything from handy to busted.  The +1 can hold off a 3 power creature indefinitely, assuming that creature attacks Jace, Telepath Unbound.  This is sometimes nontrivial. 

On the flip side, he's a mediocre to bad topdeck in the mid-late game, far more annoyed by opposing Lightning Bolts than Snapcaster Mage, and outshined in combo matches where Snapcasters flashback on a Misstep, Flusterstorm, or Pyroblast is critical. 

That said, since the two cards he's imitating are two of the most played cards in the format and he's less expensive* and more opening-hand friendly than either, the card is definitely playable. 
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brianpk80
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« Reply #31 on: July 28, 2015, 07:24:49 am »

Haven't tested it, but my gut says prodigy is better on the first couple of turns, but probably snapcaster is better after those turns. Flash cannot be understimated, snapcaster would be half as poweful without it, and a body to attack or chumplock (response to attacking revoker, confidant, unprowessed mentor, dack...). Reusing a misstep/reb/fluster is really common with snapcaster, and jace is not as good with that.

On the other hand looting is nice and flashback can be used more than once, which is a huge bonus, so if attacking with a 2/1 is negligible, go for jace.

This sums it up pretty well.  He is much better in the very early game, doing a Dack Fayden impersonation for a turn or two then flashing back something anything from handy to busted.  The +1 can hold off a 3 power creature indefinitely, assuming that creature attacks Jace, Telepath Unbound.  This is sometimes nontrivial.  

On the flip side, he's a mediocre to bad topdeck in the mid-late game, far more annoyed by opposing Lightning Bolts than Snapcaster Mage, and outshined in combo matches where Snapcaster's flashback on a Misstep, Flusterstorm, or Pyroblast is critical.  

That said, since the two cards he's imitating are two of the most played cards in the format and he's less expensive* and more opening-hand friendly than either, the card is definitely playable.  
« Last Edit: July 29, 2015, 03:14:08 am by brianpk80 » Logged

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« Reply #32 on: July 28, 2015, 03:15:21 pm »

I see the appeal, but it's also just a 0/2 creature and invites you to blown out by cards ranging from Umezawa's Jitte and Grim Lavamancer to cards like Yawgmoths Will and Oath of Druids.

Snapcaster is great because it provides immediate payout and would basically never be Plowshares. This Jace will be Plowshares immediately.
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« Reply #33 on: July 28, 2015, 03:20:23 pm »

I see the appeal, but it's also just a 0/2 creature and invites you to blown out by cards ranging from Umezawa's Jitte and Grim Lavamancer to cards like Yawgmoths Will and Oath of Druids.

Snapcaster is great because it provides immediate payout and would basically never be Plowshares. This Jace will be Plowshares immediately.

So you are admitting that your opponent has to be remove it or go over the top of it immediately?  This same assessment could be made about Bob.  The difference is this is synergistic with delve spells instead of terrible with them.
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« Reply #34 on: July 28, 2015, 04:49:48 pm »

No not immediately; it operates as slow as Merfolk Looter, right?  Bob is going to generate +1 next turn so it has to be dealt with. This Jace can only +1 a few turns down the line, when it might not even matter.  I was just pointing out that creatures like Snapcaster or Ravenous Rats don't get removed because that's a bad exchange. Swords/Bolt this Jace is a good exchange because it's 1 mana for 2.

Also, is looting even that good? I have a hard time seeing Dack Fayden as a major player without artifact steal.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2015, 04:54:45 pm by desolutionist » Logged

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Chubby Rain
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« Reply #35 on: July 28, 2015, 05:08:55 pm »

No not immediately; it operates as slow as Merfolk Looter, right?  Bob is going to generate +1 next turn so it has to be dealt with. This Jace can only +1 a few turns down the line, when it might not even matter.  I was just pointing out that creatures like Snapcaster or Ravenous Rats don't get removed because that's a bad exchange. Swords/Bolt this Jace is a good exchange because it's 1 mana for 2.

Also, is looting even that good? I have a hard time seeing Dack Fayden as a major player without artifact steal.

Between fetches, counterspells, and cantrips, Jace can often flip the next turn if you want him to. Looting is also amazing with Delve and Gush...
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« Reply #36 on: July 28, 2015, 07:36:57 pm »

I wonder - with delve a thing now and gush being a 4-of...would merfolk looter be playable?  Sure, he doesn't flip, but he attacks/blocks for damage if needed.  Jace's abilities are really awful except for the flashback.  You can reuse his flashback, but can no longer loot after he flips which seems to be decent due to delve and gush.  Could looters/dack/new jace make for some crazy mill/welder deck?
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« Reply #37 on: July 29, 2015, 02:28:11 am »

I honestly think this card is garbage.

1) you can't control when it flips
2) it has a one turn delay before even doing <anything>
3) When flipped it is only(!) a one-shot Snapcaster Mage
4) the +1 is useless
5) the ultimate can't be reached
6) it takes him four turns to give you +1 card without dying (best case!)
7) if you consume him, it takes you three turns to get +1 card (best case!)

If you compare this to Bob - Bob gives you +1 card after 2 turns, and then +1 after each consecutive turn. This needs four turns until you get +1, and then you gain a new card every fourth turn. Come on, this isn't even realistic in slower formats.

The only benefit you get is a *somewhat* free choice what to flashback instead of pure +1 draw from Confidant, but the rate is so much worse AND your opponent can just attack it with tokens and whatnot to kill it after the first flashback. This card is jsut not realiable in any way.

Dark Confidant is leagues above this, but it is not good enough in our current environment. Even IF you could make him work, efficient removal is in about every deck already to shut down the superior creatures played right now.

What makes you think this has any chance to be in any deck?
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« Reply #38 on: July 29, 2015, 02:56:41 am »

Thank you I agree whole heartedly. I think both snapcaster and even regrowth are better than this in the current meta.
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« Reply #39 on: July 29, 2015, 05:43:30 am »

Having got to play this card in Limited and Standard, I can say he is really good.

However, in my vintage testing he has been abysmal. Vintage is a format that is generally won or lost on the stack, at instant speed. If his flash back ability read "until your next turn" he would be playable, and busted.

Against slower blue decks he is OK,  in that you can grind out value, but the metagame  simply does not reflect this need.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2015, 05:57:17 am by Flash_Hulk » Logged
gkraigher
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« Reply #40 on: July 29, 2015, 08:45:23 am »

Quote
1) you can't control when it flips
2) it has a one turn delay before even doing <anything>
3) When flipped it is only(!) a one-shot Snapcaster Mage
4) the +1 is useless
5) the ultimate can't be reached
6) it takes him four turns to give you +1 card without dying (best case!)
7) if you consume him, it takes you three turns to get +1 card (best case!)

I view a lot of these as short sighted.  let's go through them.

1) you 100% get to control when it flips.  If you don't want it to flip, don't tap it.  
2) this is mostly true, the one exception being that he can block.  [I'll give you this one]
3) it's a one shot snapcaster mage that must be answered or it becomes a repeatable snapcaster mage.  
4) the +1 is not useless.  the +1 is sneaky good because it protects the planewalker.  it is written so well there doesn't even have to be a target for it.  Jace's loyalty starts at 5.  so -3 gets it to 2, so the plus one just means you get another free spell in a turn.  seems reasonable considering the first recursion spell probably drew you some cards and you can find something to do for 1 more turn before recurring a 2nd spell
5) In a control match with nothing on the board, his ultimate is still somewhat of a threat and makes him a card that must be answered.  
6) he is still a card on the board, so once you cast your recurring spell you are already +1 card.  That can happen as soon as you start your turn with him on the battlefield. 
7) ???  [I'm confused by what this means.]


I don't think Dark Confidant is leagues above this.  Dark Confidant is a liability.  In a world of creature based decks, the extra card draw off confidant isn't worth the loss of life.  That's why he is bad now.  Over time, the vintage format went from spell based to creature based and that made Confidant weaker.  Confidants's weakness becomes a strength with Jace because of his +1.  
« Last Edit: July 29, 2015, 09:02:48 am by gkraigher » Logged
Twiedel
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« Reply #41 on: July 31, 2015, 04:40:11 am »

Maybe I should have put a lot more effort in stating exactly what I meant, here we go:

1) People were suggesting he is a looter and that is sometimes good. You can't keep looting even if you want to. Also, if you have a slow hand with no fetches, you can't "make" him flip to be a Snapcaster on demand. I find this lack of control unbearable.

3) It doesn't need to be answered honestly - I takes so many turns to generate advantage, you can just ignore it and win in the meantime with most strategies. [This is the weakest point against it for sure, there COULD be situations where this is really good - but in that cases you have already won in the current metagame I think]

5) In a control match, with nothing on the board, and enough turns to flip and tick up to his ultimate you either won the game already or you are not playing Vintage. Think about how long it takes you to win with this... it is absurd.

6) A card on the board isn't worth anything if it is a planeswalker that won't do anything in the next two turns. In my world you ahve +1 card when you actually GOT the additional card, not if you only have the potential to have it in the future. Suspending Ancestral Vision is not +2 cards. It is absolutely nothing for 3 turns. If your opponent wins in the meantime, that's it.

7) It meant: If you use up all his loyality yourself and kill him in the process, the earliest you get to a +1 card advantage (access to two cards in your graveyard for the cost of one card and 1U) is three turns.

We have different views on why Confidant is not good enough any more, quite interesting. The lifeloss doesn't even matter in my view - it is Lightning Bolt and Swords to Plowshares. Confidant was a Powerhouse in Vintage because nearly none used maindeck creature removal back in the day - and you could pretty much only handle it with Force of Will first turn or see your opponent getting incremental advantage every turn.

Really I've never had much games where it came down to a damage race... it would rarely happen in some delver mirrors recently, but even then most games were decided by sequencing and countering of key delve spells. I don't see winning the game because of a few "-2/-0" activations over drawing more cards (which are likely removal spells if I really care about creatures attacking me).

Don't get me wrong, I find it very interesting to see that you're obviously thinking in a completely different direction - I just don't see it. "Volcanic, Mox, Mini-Jace, Go" Seems the least scary start I've seen in a long time in Vintage.

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« Reply #42 on: July 31, 2015, 05:36:16 am »

The arguments are pretty well-stated.  One thing I would add that is missing is the fact because it's Vintage we're talking about, thinking of him in pure "length it gets to +1 CA" terms overlooks the fact that the upside is so high in the format, flashing back Recall, Time Walk, Tinker, Gush, Gifts, or Dig.  In many cases the CA generated is much more than +1.

Turn 1 Baby Jace might be slightly less intimidating than Dark Confidant, but it's still very annoying.  I don't like things that give my opponent too many options and he certainly does that. 
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« Reply #43 on: July 31, 2015, 07:35:19 am »

Twiedel: Jace is legal now. Have you arrived at your conclusions via testing?
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« Reply #44 on: July 31, 2015, 09:10:44 am »

I ran Jace in a DE on MTGO in UWR Mentor shell, just to get some actual competitive play time in with the card. I went 3-1, losing Round 1 to Dredge (which I skimped SB slots...)

Observations;

1) He suffers the same pitfall Bob is facing, an abundance of removal, namely Bolt.

2) The looting ability is deceptively powerful. Filtering out cards you don't want in your hand, setting up flash back plays, and powering Delve is very strong.

3) The +1 ability is absolutely useless in this metagame, it does not protect Jace, at all. It is simply a means of ticking up the loyalty.

4) The real meat and potatoes of the card is the flash back ability; and its awesome, obviously.


The question still remains, is the 1U cost better value than running Snapcaster, JtMS, or even Narset? Probably not right now, but the card is super fun.



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« Reply #45 on: July 31, 2015, 10:17:20 am »

I keep starting posts in this thread, then talking myself into a corner and deleting it.  I think, at the end of the day, Flash_Hulk says what I want to say better.  Particularly about how if Bob is not good, this card is not good.

I'd add one more thought, too.  Another reason why Bob was very powerful in Vintage until recently was that the lack of creature decks meant a 2 power dork was a reliable, if slow, win condition on its own.  That's no longer true.  There's virtually no deck out there where Bob can reliably hammer down the opponent at 2 ticks per turn without running into a Monk token or Cursecatcher or whatever anymore.  Lil' Jace can't do that.  Now, of course, I don't think it MATTERS that he can't do that since we're not getting back to the time when Bob could win on his lonesome anytime in the near future, but still.  

And as for the Snapcaster comparison, you trade instant-speed for the ability to space out the flashback over a few turns.  I don't think that's worth it.  You lose:
1. The ability to flash back reactive spells like countermagic;
2. Surprise blockers;
3. Ability to cast it when your opponent is tapped out and can't respond.

So... I'm still highly skeptical.  The threat of being able to regrow something AGAIN if Jace is left uncontested makes me leery, though, because recurring something every three turns actually is pretty strong.  At least strong enough to make an opponent look for an answer.  At the end of the day, Lil Jace politely asks the opponent if they have an answer, whereas something like Dack demands it and Big Jace holds a gun to their head.
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Chubby Rain
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« Reply #46 on: August 01, 2015, 05:00:10 pm »

Deck Name: "I swear this card is pretty good"

4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Island
1 Snow-covered Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Library of Alexandria

1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key

1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Jace, Vryn’s Prodigy
1 Monastery Mentor

4 Force of Will
3 Mental Misstep
1 Mana Drain
1 Flusterstorm
2 Thoughtseize
1 Balance
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Swords to Plowshares

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Dig Through Time
2 Gifts Ungiven
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Ponder
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Treasure Cruise
1 Yawgmoth’s Will

Sideboard:
1 Plains
2 Disenchant
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Devout Witness
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Flusterstorm
2 Containment Priest
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Rest in Peace

Went undefeated in a 12-man event at the Player's Guild. Beat Boat Control twice, Dredge twice, and Shops. Jace was awesome. Thoughtseize was awesome. Balance was bad and I will be moving it to the sideboard for tomorrow.

I strongly feel that the best way to evaluate this card is to play him in a deck designed with him in mind. "Theorycrafting" or comparing him to Snapcaster/Merfolk Looter is insufficient.
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« Reply #47 on: August 02, 2015, 10:48:07 pm »

Nice! Have you ever wished you had more delve spells? Playing 4 Jaces and only 2 delve spells seems... too little? And how's Gifts treating you?
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« Reply #48 on: August 03, 2015, 10:41:26 am »

Nice! Have you ever wished you had more delve spells? Playing 4 Jaces and only 2 delve spells seems... too little? And how's Gifts treating you?

I suspect it's about right; Jace will be doing very little looting in a game of Vintage.  Even if you drop him the first turn, you can expect, what, 2 loots before he flips?  Yeah, you could delve with the specific intention of keeping him unflipped, but that seems like a poor use of a Jace.  Getting right to "T: Loot and then Flashback" seems like the way to maximize him.
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Chubby Rain
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« Reply #49 on: August 03, 2015, 07:51:22 pm »

Ran it back the next day at 5D's making the top 4 (of 11  Sad). I lost to very good draws from Shops in round 1 (after stealing game 1 with Hurkyl's Recall, my opponent followed in game 2 with quad Lodestone Golems + Chalice and game 3 with a disruption heavy draw in which I drew the wrong removal spells against his Chalice). I managed to win against Jeremy Beaver's Splinter Twin list (played by Dom), Brandon/Ringer on Dredge, and Keith Seals on Rich Shay Grixis Pyromancer before losing to Keith again in the top 4.

Final record this weekend was 8-2, which I don't think is bad for a deck built around a card that was "garbage".

@Fsecco - You can reconfigure the deck with more cantrips. As it is now, the deck is not built to support more than two Delve spells, IMO. Gifts is incredible in this deck: resolving it with a Jace in play almost always ends the game instantly and this deck is configured to get a lot of value out of a resolved Gifts even without Recoup/Noxious Revival and other less than stellar cards.

@MaxDawg - Bob is less good now for several reasons - creature removal is certainly one reason but the presence of more combat-oriented decks along with the high mana cost of the Delve spells and Gush exacerbate the cons of Bob, making him a less than stellar choice in this metagame. It's true that Jace suffers from the presence of creature removal but he is synergistic with Delve AND Gush. In addition, multiple copies of Jace are not exactly dead. They get pitched to the looting ability, or Force, or you play the second after the first has flipped.

@Flash_Hulk - thanks for the insight. I was underwhelmed with Jace when I played him in Mentor, but I was also underwhelmed with Snapcaster Mage and Narset in that deck.

@Twiedel - Flipped Jace isn't providing raw card advantage; it's giving you access to the best 1 (potentially 2) instants or sorceries in your graveyard. The loot itself is potentially replacing a dead card in your hand with a live card in your library, while fueling Delve. I think you are vastly underestimating the utility of these abilities.



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« Reply #50 on: August 04, 2015, 12:13:58 am »

Ran it back the next day at 5D's making the top 4 (of 11  Sad).  I managed to win against Jeremy Beaver's Splinter Twin list tier 1 modern deck (played by Dom), before losing to Keith again in the top 4.

Gifts is incredible in this deck: resolving it with a Jace in play almost always ends the game instantly.

@MaxDawg -  In addition, multiple copies of Jace are not exactly dead. They get pitched to the looting ability, or Force, or you play the second after the first has flipped. (but if the first is flipped, the second almost always flips instantly and one dies to the legend rule, making it a 1U regrowth for sorceries only.)


Made some edits, which I think are important things to note since we're judging strength of mini-jace on performance.  Congrats on the T4 finish, though.
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« Reply #51 on: August 04, 2015, 12:19:15 am »

Ran it back the next day at 5D's making the top 4 (of 11  Sad).  I managed to win against Jeremy Beaver's Splinter Twin list tier 1 modern deck (played by Dom), before losing to Keith again in the top 4.

Gifts is incredible in this deck: resolving it with a Jace in play almost always ends the game instantly.

@MaxDawg -  In addition, multiple copies of Jace are not exactly dead. They get pitched to the looting ability, or Force, or you play the second after the first has flipped. (but if the first is flipped, the second almost always flips instantly and one dies to the legend rule, making it a 1U regrowth for sorceries only.)


Made some edits, which I think are important things to note since we're judging strength of mini-jace on performance.  Congrats on the T4 finish, though.

The fact that you're making fun of the Splinter Twin list shows how out of touch you are with Vintage. Maybe you missed the results of the recent NYSE Open?
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« Reply #52 on: August 04, 2015, 12:29:02 am »

Made some edits, which I think are important things to note since we're judging strength of mini-jace on performance.  Congrats on the T4 finish, though.

Thank you! I'm more proud of the win the day before, but it was nice of you to congratulate me as well as correct the errors in my post. I guess I was just too excited that I had taken the card that was the subject of this thread and played it in an actual tournament, not that tournament results matter in the slightest. I should have just continued to make comparisons to existing cards along with altering preceding posts as that is the foundation for any worthwhile discussion.
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« Reply #53 on: August 04, 2015, 12:10:49 pm »

Congratulations to Matt Murray (chubbyrain) for winning Saturday's event and placing well in Sunday's with the full boat of 4 Baby Jaces.  Although some of the critiques of the card are legitimate (and some here unfortunately are not), there's another advantage this card has over Snapcaster Mage that hasn't been explicitly considered and that is the requirement of access to a relevant instant/sorcery.  This point may seem trivial considering the high quantity of spells in Vintage and in decks running Snapcaster, but it's not always a given.  Consider the following opening hand which approximates openers I've had twice in tournaments while running Esper Bomberman in 2014:

Flooded Strand, Mox Sapphire, Sol Ring, Cavern of Souls, Auriok Salvagers, Yawgmoth's Will, Snapcaster Mage.

The hand has robust mana, protection for its own threats, and two of the most busted cards in the deck on hand.  All it needs is to topdeck anything business (Top, Brainstorm, Trinket Mage, even Spellbomb) from the remaining 53 cards to start firing on all cylinders.  Unfortunately, it didn't get there because it drew land, Mox, and then another Snapcaster Mage.  As good as Snapcaster is, I noticed a disturbing frequency of "multiple Snaps, no business" hands when running 3 and occasionally 2.  I now usually max out at 1 Snapcaster in anything blue because of that phenomenon.  The hand becomes a much less risky keep with Jace, Vryn's Prodigy because its cycling helps you meet that criterion of spell access that occasionally is absent in the early game.  The fact that Auriok Salvagers can later retrieve the Sol Ring if discarded (a similar positive synergy with Dack Fayden) is just icing.  
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« Reply #54 on: August 04, 2015, 01:57:12 pm »

My next round of testing will be with Jace in a Gush-based deck with some number of Delvers or Mentors. Soaking up Bolts is going to be an interesting game; if my opponent Missteps my Preordain and Bolts my Jace, how often do they still die to a flipped 3/2 flyer?

I love the idea that Jace is ok early and great late and lives in an even more favourable spot on the curve than Dack. A Snapcaster effect than can target Gush without splashing green is worth pursuing, especially when it has a second-turn alt-mode that isn't horrible.
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Tobi
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« Reply #55 on: August 05, 2015, 03:53:05 am »

Out of curiosity I did some testing with Matt's list posted above, and while I think the list could use some tuning (Vault/Key but no Vampiric, Balance maindeck, etc) I found Baby Jace performs quite well.

Nice about Jace is that he fuels himself while digging for the follow-up Flashback. And the biggest plus is that the Flashback ability does not require any mana investment. So basically if you play the guy first turn you get a free Flashback on the second turn. This is a significant difference to Snapcaster.
Also, it is possible to target a Force of Will and re-use it by pitching a blue card from hand. Also something that Snapcaster is not able to do.
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Chubby Rain
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« Reply #56 on: August 16, 2015, 12:47:23 am »

Another weekend, another top 4 for Baby Jace and co. This time at the 39 person Black Magic Gaming event. Card is again absolutely broken and I'll be looking to run it back at AU's event tomorrow.
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« Reply #57 on: August 16, 2015, 02:01:02 am »

I'm still not sold on him.  In a land where there's not a lot of critter removal, he can become troubling, but it just seems that removal is so so so common.  If he came in as a planeswalker off the bat, he'd be much tougher to kill.  Also, in games where I've played him or played against him, he seemed totally win more.  The other 56-58 cards won the match, and he just threw gas on the fire.  I have yet to see him pull someone out of a losing position or even break parity with any regularity.  I suppose at worst he's a 1-for-1 with a bolt...but I have not seen him to be amazing.  Even with the last mention of a top 4, I'd be interested to see how that same stack of 56 + 4 other solid blue cards would have done.  My guess is the same, if not better.
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« Reply #58 on: August 16, 2015, 04:43:28 am »

A 2 mana blue planeswalker seems really powerful.

The +1 ability seems really limiting. I can definitely see scenarios where its a Moat or close to it, but it seems pretty bad in a number of matchups.

Does Baby Jace just completely replace Snapcaster in the decks that would want it? Seems to play along much nicer with delve spells and Gush.

Will this create something new? or does it just simply let a mana light deck like delver that can't play jace and only 1 or two copies of Dack have access to a new powerful tool?
Seems like a much better bridge to Gifts than Snapcaster does, but is that good enough?

All these cards in Magic origins seem very well designed and very difficult to analyze as well as very promising. We have a timetwister replica, a demonic tutor replica, a thirst for Knowledge replica, a new shops creature and a two mana Jace. All these cards seem like they could see play in many different decks and become quite popular. Way to go R&D. Glad to see they've come a long way since Theros block and it's underpower-ness/boring design space.
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Chubby Rain
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« Reply #59 on: August 16, 2015, 08:23:59 am »

@Dragon - I don't know what to say other than, based on the past three tournaments and a combined record of 13-3-1, Jace has earned his spot in the decks I've played him in. Yes, infanticide of Jace makes me sad but the times the opponent doesn't have one of their 3-4 removal spells or I have a Misstep, Thoughtseize, etc to protect him, his impact is incredibly high for a two drop. I've actually won two game 1's against Dredge on the draw because I played a turn 1 Jace and went completely nuts with him the next turn(s).

@Lotus - At two mana, he is an incredible bargain if he lives. The +1 ability is never "bad" as it enables you to flashback a second spell the next turn - any value you get out of shrinking a creature is just icing on the proverbial cake. Jace does not replace Snapcaster as they are different cards: having to cast Snapcaster the turn you play the spell incentivizes running cheaper spells and having flash allows you to play a more reactive game. Jace is best with more expensive and more impactful spells, sorcery forms of disruption (i.e. Thoughtseize and Balance), and in decks that would otherwise lack an early play like Gifts. It will definitely create something new (and did...my list from yesterday is a bit of a doozy) - the card is incredibly busted for what it does.

After testing, my evaluation of Jace is 5/5 based on LSV's criteria from Channelfireball set reviews: he's a multiformat all star the dramatically changes the playstyle and card selection in the decks that run him.
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"Why are we making bad decks? I mean, honestly, what is our reason for doing this?"

"Is this a Vintage deck or a Cube deck?" "Is it sad that you have to ask?"

"Is that a draft deck?" "Why do people keep asking that?"

Random conversations...
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