[ORG]Jace,Vryn's Prodigy//Jace, Telepath Unbound

[brianpk80]

Congratulations on another successful venture with Baby Jace.  Based now on results and what appears to be a strong and growing consensus on the card's playability, it's safe to conclude this card makes the cut in Vintage.  One of my favorite things about it is the way it fuels its own repository of spells to flashback.  Minimizing the frequency of "2 Snapcaster, no business" hands cannot be understated. 

Another interesting attribute about this card is that in a more controlling shell, since it does have tension with Jace, TMS being that they cannot be in play simultaneously, there's going to be a stronger desire for alternative planeswalkers and planeswalker-esque creatures, Dack being the no-brainer, but also Narset, Ral, Tezzeret, Consecrated Sphinx, and Ojutai. 

[TheWhiteDragon]

@Dragon - I don't know what to say other than, based on the past three tournaments and a combined record of 13-3-1, Jace has earned his spot in the decks I've played him in. Yes, infanticide of Jace makes me sad but the times the opponent doesn't have one of their 3-4 removal spells or I have a Misstep, Thoughtseize, etc to protect him, his impact is incredibly high for a two drop. I've actually won two game 1's against Dredge on the draw because I played a turn 1 Jace and went completely nuts with him the next turn(s).

That's fine, and I'm not saying he's terrible - I just am not sold.  You were 13-3-1, which is great....but if you ran the same list with 4 snapcaster/gush/preordain/blue-card-of-choice instead, would the list have done equally as well?  It's hard to say, but the games where I've played him/seen him played, he was good in situations where I had already won the game or he advanced my plan slightly in the same way a snapcaster or something else would have.  Remember that sedge troll control was once a thing.  Sedge troll is and was and will forever be a crappy card, but the other 59 around him were so great that it didn't matter what that 60th card was, the deck kept winning.  I'm not saying baby jace is sedge troll bad, but I'm skeptical to say he is winning games as opposed to being a negligible/replaceable slot in an otherwise dominant control shell.

Edit: I've seen similar things in this Ojutai Dragon.  He can do some decent things, but the games where he made a difference, I was completely locked down by counters and other control things.  For the cost of dragon, I could have been dead on the spot by other spells.  Granted, dragon (and I'm guessing baby jace) can KEEP you ahead once you are dominating, but is staying ahead while winning better than just ending the game?  I've yet to see either card get a player ahead when they were down....only dominate once the opponent was already virtually beaten.

[brianpk80]

That's fine, and I'm not saying he's terrible - I just am not sold.  You were 13-3-1, which is great....but if you ran the same list with 4 snapcaster/gush/preordain/blue-card-of-choice instead, would the list have done equally as well?  

He was playing Worldgorger Dragon combo with Bazaar of Baghdad.  How well do Gush and Snapcaster Mage advance that deck's gameplan compared to Jace, Vryn's Prodigy?  Hopefully the answer is self-evident. 

Edit: I've seen similar things in this Ojutai Dragon.  He can do some decent things, but the games where he made a difference, I was completely locked down by counters and other control things. 

It might help to be piloting a planeswalker control deck and find yourself constantly facing down hordes of Revokers/Factories/Porcelains/tokens/Hatebears etc. to appreciate why throwing this guy on the board under X Thorns is contextually more desirable than a Jace. 

For the cost of dragon, I could have been dead on the spot by other spells. 

One that also pitches in the early game and doesn't require you to run additional bad cards?  Seems to me the list is pretty short.  Long live the Dragonlord. 

[TheWhiteDragon]

That's fine, and I'm not saying he's terrible - I just am not sold.  You were 13-3-1, which is great....but if you ran the same list with 4 snapcaster/gush/preordain/blue-card-of-choice instead, would the list have done equally as well?  

He was playing Worldgorger Dragon combo with Bazaar of Baghdad.  How well do Gush and Snapcaster Mage advance that deck's gameplan compared to Jace, Vryn's Prodigy?  Hopefully the answer is self-evident.  

Edit: I've seen similar things in this Ojutai Dragon.  He can do some decent things, but the games where he made a difference, I was completely locked down by counters and other control things.

It might help to be piloting a planeswalker control deck and find yourself constantly facing down hordes of Revokers/Factories/Porcelains/tokens/Hatebears etc. to appreciate why throwing this guy on the board under X Thorns is contextually more desirable than a Jace.  

For the cost of dragon, I could have been dead on the spot by other spells.  

One that also pitches in the early game and doesn't require you to run additional bad cards?  Seems to me the list is pretty short.  Long live the Dragonlord.  

In a worldgorger deck, i can see it being good - it's a minibazaar there.  I guess with a deck built around it, it could be fine.  It hasn't seemed superior in a regular control shell like snap or whatnot would be.

I haven't played a superfriends list, but I've seen it played (by you I believe).  In our match, with me on dark times, countering my hexmages, pathing my Marit, bolting/electrolyzing my priests/bobs/spirits won you the game.  By the time you had narcet or flipped jace, i was buried in CA and all my threats removed.  You did have jace -2/0 a spirit one turn, but I was facing six mana, a narcet, jace, dragon, and a grip of 6 cards vs my 2 lands on the table and 3 spell hand at that point...so I consider all the early removal/counter/draw what put me away.  The dragon and jace were gravy at that point as the paths and counters (with me drawing no duress effects or spellskites) had already put me in an unwinnable position.  The game where I kept one land and vial and you had turn 1 grudge...well, that was gg there.  Had you been facing revoker/tokens/other X/1s, all your removal spells and FoWs and gushing/merch scrolling into more gas did just fine on their own.  That amount of control, where jace and dragon weren't even on the board by the time I was sufficiently beaten, is what I mean when I say a sedge troll could have been the finisher.  If you are running jace, I can even see that as a better reason to run tinker/BSC/inkwell over dragon.  Half the cost and you can pitch the BSC in your hand.  Early game 1-turn kill seems better than a 4 turn clock that lands on turn 6.

Again, not saying that either card are terrible, but, as noted from our match, they are irrelevant when the other cards win the match and they are just batting cleanup.  I suppose they are okay (especially in a worldgorger/welder list I can see Jace being good), but they just seem like adequate finishers when the game is virtually over as opposed to broken cards that win when you are on your heels.

[Naixin]

Maybe you're both right. Maybe baby jace and ojutai aren't "busted" in the same sense as recall, lotus, gush, dig, etc is, but it's still really good. Yes, a deck with 56 good cards is probably going to generate a lot of card advantage and any finisher will make the deck complete. However, out of the finishers, what is the best choice? For me, I use a slot for ojutai because it doesn't get hated out by mentor hate. Perhaps a SFM+batterskull would have worked or even a frost Titan. The bottom line is the cards work, and at the end of the day, I think it's more of a stylistic thing if anything. Some people like tokens so they end with mentor, some like dragons so they use ojutai, I bet someone has found success using Elspeth or Ajani. The shells in vintage are busted enough that finishers are more of a personality thing IMO.

[serracollector]

Couldnt agree more with the above. If it works it works. On topic I would like to see jace used more in a survival build with Goblin Welder and Anger. Just more ways and more options to break the grave. Dack and Welder are long overdue just make Gush the cheaper Thirst with Dack and Jace.

[fsecco]

Couldnt agree more with the above. If it works it works. On topic I would like to see jace used more in a survival build with Goblin Welder and Anger. Just more ways and more options to break the grave. Dack and Welder are long overdue just make Gush the cheaper Thirst with Dack and Jace.

Heheheh Jace and Concordant Crossroads <3

Remember that sedge troll control was once a thing.  Sedge troll is and was and will forever be a crappy card, but the other 59 around him were so great that it didn't matter what that 60th card was, the deck kept winning.

I disagree with this reasoning in modern Vintage. Decks nowadays have a LOT of ways to come back from a losing position, so even if you attain an advantage in the game, your kill spell is very relevant nowadays because it needs to KEEP you ahead (or at least win quickly). So, choosing the 60th card is very relevant. If it's a card that helps you get the advantage and also can keep you there, then it's pretty good. I feel things like Consecrated Sphinx and Ojutai got better these days because of that. Baby Jace may work that way too. It digs a little to help you get there, and once you get there it helps you stay there.

The main advantage Dack has over Jace is the casting cost. If Jace TMS costed 1UU, would Dack even see that amount of play? So costing 1U is actually relevant for Baby Jace.

[Chubby Rain]

That's fine, and I'm not saying he's terrible - I just am not sold.  You were 13-3-1, which is great....but if you ran the same list with 4 snapcaster/gush/preordain/blue-card-of-choice instead, would the list have done equally as well?  It's hard to say, but the games where I've played him/seen him played, he was good in situations where I had already won the game or he advanced my plan slightly in the same way a snapcaster or something else would have.  Remember that sedge troll control was once a thing.  Sedge troll is and was and will forever be a crappy card, but the other 59 around him were so great that it didn't matter what that 60th card was, the deck kept winning.  I'm not saying baby jace is sedge troll bad, but I'm skeptical to say he is winning games as opposed to being a negligible/replaceable slot in an otherwise dominant control shell.

Update: Now 20-4-1 with an extra Mox Ruby. An ~80% win rate in tournament play with 4 copies of "Sedge Troll" seems to suggest that card is indeed better than Sedge Troll. You also bolded a key point in my previous post that Jace is a two drop - it's the combination of the mana cost and the effect that makes Jace great. As for whether or not the opportunity cost of playing Jace is relevant, the value of a card is not intrinsic but dependent on the deck, metagame, and pilot. It's how you construct the deck that determines whether or not Jace, Snapcaster, Gush, Preordain, etc. is worth the slot.

In a worldgorger deck, i can see it being good - it's a minibazaar there.  I guess with a deck built around it, it could be fine.  It hasn't seemed superior in a regular control shell like snap or whatnot would be.

I recommend not plugging random cards into decklists without considering how they function in the context of the rest of the deck and how you can maximize the performance of the cards (and by extension, the deck). That seems like a very poor approach to deckbuilding...

[TheWhiteDragon]

That's fine, and I'm not saying he's terrible - I just am not sold.  You were 13-3-1, which is great....but if you ran the same list with 4 snapcaster/gush/preordain/blue-card-of-choice instead, would the list have done equally as well?  It's hard to say, but the games where I've played him/seen him played, he was good in situations where I had already won the game or he advanced my plan slightly in the same way a snapcaster or something else would have.  Remember that sedge troll control was once a thing.  Sedge troll is and was and will forever be a crappy card, but the other 59 around him were so great that it didn't matter what that 60th card was, the deck kept winning.  I'm not saying baby jace is sedge troll bad, but I'm skeptical to say he is winning games as opposed to being a negligible/replaceable slot in an otherwise dominant control shell.

Update: Now 20-4-1 with an extra Mox Ruby. An ~80% win rate in tournament play with 4 copies of "Sedge Troll" seems to suggest that card is indeed better than Sedge Troll. You also bolded a key point in my previous post that Jace is a two drop - it's the combination of the mana cost and the effect that makes Jace great. As for whether or not the opportunity cost of playing Jace is relevant, the value of a card is not intrinsic but dependent on the deck, metagame, and pilot. It's how you construct the deck that determines whether or not Jace, Snapcaster, Gush, Preordain, etc. is worth the slot.

In a worldgorger deck, i can see it being good - it's a minibazaar there.  I guess with a deck built around it, it could be fine.  It hasn't seemed superior in a regular control shell like snap or whatnot would be.

I recommend not plugging random cards into decklists without considering how they function in the context of the rest of the deck and how you can maximize the performance of the cards (and by extension, the deck). That seems like a very poor approach to deckbuilding...

I didn't bold the text, it was bolded from the quote - I assumed you bolded it, but yes the cost would be an attractive element.

I still don't know if a 20-4-1 record makes jace a great card overall as much as a good fit for Worldgorger deck.  It would also be telling of how many games you won where you didn't play Jace.  If your X-4-1 came in games where you didn't see jace, then that would be an argument for showing he helps.  If your wins came without needing Jace (as a dragon and a bazaar are prone to do), then it doesn't say much about Jace.  If your loses came in games where Jace was on the table, that is also good data to have that wouldn't support your claim.  And as I conceded, a minibazaar in a deck that wants bazaar seems good.  The issue I see with using your record as evidence is this - let's say they made an instant that said "U-discard 1, draw 1".  Your deck is already 20-4-1.  You plug in 4 of these instants and the deck goes 21-3-1.  Can you say "look at the record, it shows spell X is bonkers"?  I don't think you can.  You found a spell that already synergizes in a deck that was already winning.  I don't see magus of the bazaar in your list (maybe I missed it), but it's the same cost and gives dragon a similar effect.  If you plug in 4 magus where you have 4 jace and the deck goes 20-4-1, does that mean magus of the bazaar is bonkers too?  Or does it just mean the deck overall is solid enough to utilize whatever it can plug in and still win?  The only way to use results to show a card is that good is to take a deck that goes 10-10-1, plug in 4 of the new guy, and suddenly it runs 19-1-1.  That would show improvement, especially if the new card always resulted in wins. 

And yes, the card is probably better than sedge troll.  If you think I'm comparing the two creatures, then clearly you missed my point.

I don't plug cards into shells, but I have seen baby jace plugged in to delver lists to help enable delve and recur bolts and such, and it was much more underwhelming there.  Snaps or most anything would have been better in those games.  I can see Jace doing fine in dragon (though I could see magus of the bazaar doing equally well in those slots for the same cost), and would like to see him as a baby dack in a welder list.  But on the card as a generally versatile bomb, I don't see him as useful as snapcaster overall.  Snapcaster is one of those cards that has utility in almost any shell running instants and sorceries and trying to kill with damage.  Baby Jace seems to need a deck built around him or plugged into a deck that already utilizes his loot effect (dragon).

All that said, I'm still not sold on Ojutai either.  I know it can win games and it keeps a guy ahead once he's already ahead...but I haven't seen games where he came back from behind to win out of nowhere (like a tinker/BSC frequently does).  Not that Ojutai is terrible or wrong, it's just that I think there may be better win cons in the decks I see him in.

[fsecco]

I have absolutely no idea why we're discussing Baby Jace in a Dragon shell since ChubbyRain is playing him in an Esper Control list.

[Chubby Rain]

You found a spell that already synergizes in a deck that was already winning.

Yes, Dragon has definitely been tearing it up lately...

I don't see magus of the bazaar in your list (maybe I missed it), but it's the same cost and gives dragon a similar effect. If you plug in 4 magus where you have 4 jace and the deck goes 20-4-1, does that mean magus of the bazaar is bonkers too?  Or does it just mean the deck overall is solid enough to utilize whatever it can plug in and still win?  The only way to use results to show a card is that good is to take a deck that goes 10-10-1, plug in 4 of the new guy, and suddenly it runs 19-1-1.  That would show improvement, especially if the new card always resulted in wins.

You have fundamentally misunderstood the role of Jace in the deck: the looting ability is really good but so is the flashback ability especially in long, complex games where the card disadvantage from Bazaar is prohibitive. Jace enables an early combo and gives the deck resilience plus facilitates a transformational sideboard as he is perfectly playable (great, actually) in those games. You are also ignoring the fact that several of these match wins were with the Gifts list that I posted earlier.

That is also clearly NOT how to show a card is good. "I put Chalice of the Void in my TPS deck and lost a bunch of games because of it; therefore, Chalice of the Void is a bad card." Plugging in cards with no regard for the other 71 or metagame is just bad deckbuilding, there is simply no other way to describe it. Good and bad are contextual when it comes to Magic. You don't show up with a deck consisting of 4 copies of the same card facing an empty chair.

And yes, the card is probably better than sedge troll.  If you think I'm comparing the two creatures, then clearly you missed my point.

You were comparing my decks with Jace in them to previous decks that ran Sedge Troll. I got the point, as dull as was, and chose to have a bit of "fun" with the comparison.

I don't plug cards into shells, but I have seen baby jace plugged in to delver lists to help enable delve and recur bolts and such, and it was much more underwhelming there. Snaps or most anything would have been better in those games.

While not as egregious as running Chalice of the Void in Storm, I agree that this is a suboptimal use of Jace. Again, good and bad is contextual.

But on the card as a generally versatile bomb, I don't see him as useful as snapcaster overall.  Snapcaster is one of those cards that has utility in almost any shell running instants and sorceries and trying to kill with damage.

See previous posts. I'm really getting tired of explaining how these cards differ.

All that said, I'm still not sold on Ojutai either.  I know it can win games and it keeps a guy ahead once he's already ahead...but I haven't seen games where he came back from behind to win out of nowhere (like a tinker/BSC frequently does).  Not that Ojutai is terrible or wrong, it's just that I think there may be better win cons in the decks I see him in.

This is the Jace. Vyrn's Prodigy//Jace, Telepath Unbound thread. There is a previous thread in which you reiterated this point about Dragonlord Ojutai several times while clinging to your preconceived notions and ignoring others' theoretical input, testing, and tournament results. Much like you are doing is this current thread, again about Jace, Vyrn's Prodigy//Jace, Telepath Unbound.

[Chubby Rain]

I have absolutely no idea why we're discussing Baby Jace in a Dragon shell since ChubbyRain is playing him in an Esper Control list.

Because I built a Dragon list with 3 Jaces, top 4'd a 39 person event on Saturday, made corrections (including adding the 4th Jace) and won a Mox Ruby on Sunday at a 30 person event.

[brianpk80]

I haven't played a superfriends list, but I've seen it played (by you I believe).  In our match, with me on dark times, countering my hexmages, pathing my Marit, bolting/electrolyzing my priests/bobs/spirits won you the game.  By the time you had narcet or flipped jace, i was buried in CA and all my threats removed.  You did have jace -2/0 a spirit one turn, but I was facing six mana, a narcet, jace, dragon, and a grip of 6 cards vs my 2 lands on the table and 3 spell hand at that point...so I consider all the early removal/counter/draw what put me away.  The dragon and jace were gravy at that point as the paths and counters (with me drawing no duress effects or spellskites) had already put me in an unwinnable position.  The game where I kept one land and vial and you had turn 1 grudge...well, that was gg there.  Had you been facing revoker/tokens/other X/1s, all your removal spells and FoWs and gushing/merch scrolling into more gas did just fine on their own.  That amount of control, where jace and dragon weren't even on the board by the time I was sufficiently beaten, is what I mean when I say a sedge troll could have been the finisher.

I don't know what to say because I haven't played Path, Bolt, or Electrolyze in ages.  If you're saying Jace, the Mind Sculptor is not the most important card against Dark Times, I suppose I could agree.  But that doesn't make him bad nor does it make similar cards in this category (4-5 CMC blue advantage engine/finishers) poor maindeck considerations. 

 If you are running jace, I can even see that as a better reason to run tinker/BSC/inkwell over dragon.  Half the cost and you can pitch the BSC in your hand.  Early game 1-turn kill seems better than a 4 turn clock that lands on turn 6.

No, no, and no.  Tinker into anything but Memory Jar is not a good place to be right now for a gazillion reasons.

All that said, I'm still not sold on Ojutai either.  I know it can win games and it keeps a guy ahead once he's already ahead...but I haven't seen games where he came back from behind to win out of nowhere (like a tinker/BSC frequently does).  Not that Ojutai is terrible or wrong, it's just that I think there may be better win cons in the decks I see him in.

You might be misunderstanding the role of Ojutai.  No one has hailed it as the second coming or holy grail of the format.  What it constitutes is another viable avenue to victory that complements different strategies to different degrees (Stoneblade being the sickest since you end up with a ridiculous de facto combo finish), while combining a lot of attributes we like to see, namely being blue, being able to generate card advantage, being a win condition, and having unique fortitude against different threats.  It's neither strictly superior nor strictly inferior to other cards in this category.  For instance, Jace TMS is overall the best of the bunch but he has his own vulnerabilities not found in Ojutai & Narset being able to complement your one or two Jaces with a few other legitimate options is pretty cool.  There are a lot of crowded board states that make me grateful it's the Ojutai in my hand and not Jace--these most commonly come up against public enemy #1 Workshop.  It happens a lot with Pyromancer decks too.  For decks that are faster than blue control, being able to pitch him turn 1 unlike Monastery Mentor or Time Vault has frequently been relevant. 

Suggesting Tinker might make sense from the perspective of non-blue mages who only see it at its best, but blue pilots today do not want to be losing to Dack Fayden, Flusterstorm, unable to play a Tinkerable Mox due to Chalice, or drawing dead cards like Voltaic Key or Robot with Gush decks being so punishing, or the other myriad reasons it's only fringe playable outside of Europe.  Hopefully that sheds some light on things. 

[TheWhiteDragon]

I haven't played a superfriends list, but I've seen it played (by you I believe).  In our match, with me on dark times, countering my hexmages, pathing my Marit, bolting/electrolyzing my priests/bobs/spirits won you the game.  By the time you had narcet or flipped jace, i was buried in CA and all my threats removed.  You did have jace -2/0 a spirit one turn, but I was facing six mana, a narcet, jace, dragon, and a grip of 6 cards vs my 2 lands on the table and 3 spell hand at that point...so I consider all the early removal/counter/draw what put me away.  The dragon and jace were gravy at that point as the paths and counters (with me drawing no duress effects or spellskites) had already put me in an unwinnable position.  The game where I kept one land and vial and you had turn 1 grudge...well, that was gg there.  Had you been facing revoker/tokens/other X/1s, all your removal spells and FoWs and gushing/merch scrolling into more gas did just fine on their own.  That amount of control, where jace and dragon weren't even on the board by the time I was sufficiently beaten, is what I mean when I say a sedge troll could have been the finisher.

I don't know what to say because I haven't played Path, Bolt, or Electrolyze in ages.  If you're saying Jace, the Mind Sculptor is not the most important card against Dark Times, I suppose I could agree.  But that doesn't make him bad nor does it make similar cards in this category (4-5 CMC blue advantage engine/finishers) poor maindeck considerations. 

 If you are running jace, I can even see that as a better reason to run tinker/BSC/inkwell over dragon.  Half the cost and you can pitch the BSC in your hand.  Early game 1-turn kill seems better than a 4 turn clock that lands on turn 6.

No, no, and no.  Tinker into anything but Memory Jar is not a good place to be right now for a gazillion reasons.

All that said, I'm still not sold on Ojutai either.  I know it can win games and it keeps a guy ahead once he's already ahead...but I haven't seen games where he came back from behind to win out of nowhere (like a tinker/BSC frequently does).  Not that Ojutai is terrible or wrong, it's just that I think there may be better win cons in the decks I see him in.

You might be misunderstanding the role of Ojutai.  No one has hailed it as the second coming or holy grail of the format.  What it constitutes is another viable avenue to victory that complements different strategies to different degrees (Stoneblade being the sickest since you end up with a ridiculous de facto combo finish), while combining a lot of attributes we like to see, namely being blue, being able to generate card advantage, being a win condition, and having unique fortitude against different threats.  It's neither strictly superior nor strictly inferior to other cards in this category.  For instance, Jace TMS is overall the best of the bunch but he has his own vulnerabilities not found in Ojutai & Narset being able to complement your one or two Jaces with a few other legitimate options is pretty cool.  There are a lot of crowded board states that make me grateful it's the Ojutai in my hand and not Jace--these most commonly come up against public enemy #1 Workshop.  It happens a lot with Pyromancer decks too.  For decks that are faster than blue control, being able to pitch him turn 1 unlike Monastery Mentor or Time Vault has frequently been relevant. 

Suggesting Tinker might make sense from the perspective of non-blue mages who only see it at its best, but blue pilots today do not want to be losing to Dack Fayden, Flusterstorm, unable to play a Tinkerable Mox due to Chalice, or drawing dead cards like Voltaic Key or Robot with Gush decks being so punishing, or the other myriad reasons it's only fringe playable outside of Europe.  Hopefully that sheds some light on things. 

Good explanation for Ojutai.  Like I said, I didn't think it was the best win con bar-none, but I can see how it plays synergistically with a different angle. 

I don't know what it was you played then - i just remember playing you and all of my threats getting wiped away repeatedly, including Marit (I think you actually repealed it now that I'm thinking back), and ending up with only a couple lands and a few cards in hand while your board and hand were overwhelming before you ever flashbacked anything with baby jace.  I didn't see baby jace as impressive in that matchup because he was irrelevant at the time he flipped.

[TheWhiteDragon]

You found a spell that already synergizes in a deck that was already winning.

Yes, Dragon has definitely been tearing it up lately...

I don't see magus of the bazaar in your list (maybe I missed it), but it's the same cost and gives dragon a similar effect. If you plug in 4 magus where you have 4 jace and the deck goes 20-4-1, does that mean magus of the bazaar is bonkers too?  Or does it just mean the deck overall is solid enough to utilize whatever it can plug in and still win?  The only way to use results to show a card is that good is to take a deck that goes 10-10-1, plug in 4 of the new guy, and suddenly it runs 19-1-1.  That would show improvement, especially if the new card always resulted in wins.

You have fundamentally misunderstood the role of Jace in the deck: the looting ability is really good but so is the flashback ability especially in long, complex games where the card disadvantage from Bazaar is prohibitive. Jace enables an early combo and gives the deck resilience plus facilitates a transformational sideboard as he is perfectly playable (great, actually) in those games. You are also ignoring the fact that several of these match wins were with the Gifts list that I posted earlier.

That is also clearly NOT how to show a card is good. "I put Chalice of the Void in my TPS deck and lost a bunch of games because of it; therefore, Chalice of the Void is a bad card." Plugging in cards with no regard for the other 71 or metagame is just bad deckbuilding, there is simply no other way to describe it. Good and bad are contextual when it comes to Magic. You don't show up with a deck consisting of 4 copies of the same card facing an empty chair.

And yes, the card is probably better than sedge troll.  If you think I'm comparing the two creatures, then clearly you missed my point.

You were comparing my decks with Jace in them to previous decks that ran Sedge Troll. I got the point, as dull as was, and chose to have a bit of "fun" with the comparison.

I don't plug cards into shells, but I have seen baby jace plugged in to delver lists to help enable delve and recur bolts and such, and it was much more underwhelming there. Snaps or most anything would have been better in those games.

While not as egregious as running Chalice of the Void in Storm, I agree that this is a suboptimal use of Jace. Again, good and bad is contextual.

But on the card as a generally versatile bomb, I don't see him as useful as snapcaster overall.  Snapcaster is one of those cards that has utility in almost any shell running instants and sorceries and trying to kill with damage.

See previous posts. I'm really getting tired of explaining how these cards differ.

All that said, I'm still not sold on Ojutai either.  I know it can win games and it keeps a guy ahead once he's already ahead...but I haven't seen games where he came back from behind to win out of nowhere (like a tinker/BSC frequently does).  Not that Ojutai is terrible or wrong, it's just that I think there may be better win cons in the decks I see him in.

This is the Jace. Vyrn's Prodigy//Jace, Telepath Unbound thread. There is a previous thread in which you reiterated this point about Dragonlord Ojutai several times while clinging to your preconceived notions and ignoring others' theoretical input, testing, and tournament results. Much like you are doing is this current thread, again about Jace, Vyrn's Prodigy//Jace, Telepath Unbound.

Apparently dragon had been tearing it up: 20-4-1.  I was referring to that guy.

Contextually, as in dragon, welder, etc., I guess baby jace is fine.  Seeing him in Esper (as mentioned in some other list), I guess if he works for you, he works for you.

As far as my example of 10-10-1 to a 19-1-1, that would show if a card is helpful in that particular build.  As far as universally good, I'd think card X added to ANY list could help its win % if it were just generically powerful (ancestral/lotus/etc).  Baby Jace may fit well in some decks, I'll concede that.  I don't think it's as universally useful as cards like snapcaster, though it has its niche.  If I added a card to a list and my losses came due to that card or the card had little positive impact where it could have been/should have been any other card, I think it speaks to it not fitting well in the deck.  For the dragon list, it clearly fits.

[TheWhiteDragon]

I have absolutely no idea why we're discussing Baby Jace in a Dragon shell since ChubbyRain is playing him in an Esper Control list.

Because I built a Dragon list with 3 Jaces, top 4'd a 39 person event on Saturday, made corrections (including adding the 4th Jace) and won a Mox Ruby on Sunday at a 30 person event.

Congrats on the win again - but where in the world are you getting power for a 30 man attendance???  At $30 a head, that barely even covers the cost of the first place prize.  I hadn't seen a piece of power for prize short of 60 man with $30 entry.  The 30 man tourneys I've seen typically give out a FBB Dual land...at best a Time Vault.

[fsecco]

I have absolutely no idea why we're discussing Baby Jace in a Dragon shell since ChubbyRain is playing him in an Esper Control list.

Because I built a Dragon list with 3 Jaces, top 4'd a 39 person event on Saturday, made corrections (including adding the 4th Jace) and won a Mox Ruby on Sunday at a 30 person event.

It's hard to understand that looking at this thread, since the only list mentioned here is the esper control one. But nice to see Dragon rocking solid! I'm currently in love with Baby Jace too, but haven't got to play him outside Duel Commander.

[Chubby Rain]

Congrats on the win again - but where in the world are you getting power for a 30 man attendance???  At $30 a head, that barely even covers the cost of the first place prize.  I hadn't seen a piece of power for prize short of 60 man with $30 entry.  The 30 man tourneys I've seen typically give out a FBB Dual land...at best a Time Vault.

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=47925.0

Absolute cannot complain about the prize support. Store was great too.

Contextually, as in dragon, welder, etc., I guess baby jace is fine.  Seeing him in Esper (as mentioned in some other list), I guess if he works for you, he works for you.

As far as my example of 10-10-1 to a 19-1-1, that would show if a card is helpful in that particular build.  As far as universally good, I'd think card X added to ANY list could help its win % if it were just generically powerful (ancestral/lotus/etc).  Baby Jace may fit well in some decks, I'll concede that.  I don't think it's as universally useful as cards like snapcaster, though it has its niche.  If I added a card to a list and my losses came due to that card or the card had little positive impact where it could have been/should have been any other card, I think it speaks to it not fitting well in the deck.  For the dragon list, it clearly fits.

Yeah, I understand what you are saying but I disagree that this a viable approach to evaluating a card. The inclusion of a card, especially as a 4-of, should influence decisions made on the other 56 (and 71), as should things like the metagame and playstyle. Still, I'll settle for the admission that Jace may fit well in some decks. It's been an uphill battle in this thread getting to that point :p

Sorry, I can't go through Snapcaster vs. Jace, Vryn's Prodigy again. They are very different cards despite their apparent similarities and that dramatically affects deck construction - decks that run Snapcaster typically run 1-3 copies whereas Jace has been a 4-of in most of my decks. You talk about about something being "universally useful" vs more narrow but I think this is like comparing Ancestral Recall to Mishra's Workshop: one is clearly more narrow than the other but can you really choose between them regarding power level?

[Chubby Rain]

It's hard to understand that looking at this thread, since the only list mentioned here is the esper control one. But nice to see Dragon rocking solid! I'm currently in love with Baby Jace too, but haven't got to play him outside Duel Commander.

Brian mentioned that I was running Dragon with it this weekend though I didn't include it in my post Saturday night as I had a tournament the next day. List from the second event is here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UKKk8urbB-SevYIZc3fxYTvlHz99CZ56W1VFqK64d7c/edit#gid=0

Edit: As this thread is technically about Jace and not the decks, I wanted to keep the discussion on him but again all cards depend on contextual.

[fsecco]

Hum, funny that somehow I understood that Brian was stating that the Dredge deck you said you beat with Jace was actually a Dragon deck. Tsc, tsc.

Nice list, it's always awesome to see Dragon!

[TheWhiteDragon]

Congrats on the win again - but where in the world are you getting power for a 30 man attendance???  At $30 a head, that barely even covers the cost of the first place prize.  I hadn't seen a piece of power for prize short of 60 man with $30 entry.  The 30 man tourneys I've seen typically give out a FBB Dual land...at best a Time Vault.

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=47925.0

Absolute cannot complain about the prize support. Store was great too.

Wow - for a $900 take-in, that was at least $1000 in prizes.  How can stores do that without going under?

I wish I lived in PA/NJ/NY (not really) to play in tourneys like that.  Here, the stores actually want a sizeable profit for running an event and giving out mad bucks in prizes.

[healo]

I just wanted to make a quick comment on the baby Jace. I have faced it multiple times now on mtgo and, facing it mostly on T1, it has very meaningful impact on the game.

The theorycrafting here is nice to read, but it was not until I have faced it in a real game I realized how good it actually is. It's not a broken spell we are used to be playing in Vintage, but it certainly gives the pilot lots of options and ways to navigate through the game. It seems to be the trend these days to shift out of the broken strategies and rely more on consistent/slower ways to win games. I'd say the main reason for this is likely to be the dominance of Shops. And this is exactly why the baby Jace is good, imo. You rarely lose games these days by being overwhelmed by broken spells. You lose more often by being buried under CA, denied to play spells, or generally just controlled to death. So, baby Jace on T1 has plenty of time to put you in a advantageous position from which you can win the game then.

Also, regarding Ojutai, I have possitive experience playing it in an Oath shell. Basically, due to the fact that players won't scoop to Salvagers + Lotus combo on mtgo most of the time, I tweaked Brian Kelly's Oath deck and removed the combo, added more control cards + Ojutai instead of Salvagers. I was surprised how effective it is to Oath up this dragon. It is very easily casted from your hand, so it dodges all the Oath hate out there too. The deck can transform into pure Planeswalker/Oath + Dromoka/Ojutai control, I even cut few Orchards to make a breathing room for my planeswalkers. I was really stunned how many matches I was able to win just because most people had no Idea how to play against this kind of Oath deck that does not rely on the card Oath of Druids as much.

Just few observations.

[Chubby Rain]

Two interesting articles on Jace in different formats. Mike Major's analysis in particular is great and he does a good job detailing the difference between Tiago and Jace and what decks want which. Hopefully it helps with other's brews in Vintage. 

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/31410_Legacy-Esper-Delve.html
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/31408_Igniting-Jacersquos-Spark-In-Modern.html

[brianpk80]

Also, regarding Ojutai, I have possitive experience playing it in an Oath shell. Basically, due to the fact that players won't scoop to Salvagers + Lotus combo on mtgo most of the time, I tweaked Brian Kelly's Oath deck and removed the combo, added more control cards + Ojutai instead of Salvagers. I was surprised how effective it is to Oath up this dragon. It is very easily casted from your hand, so it dodges all the Oath hate out there too. The deck can transform into pure Planeswalker/Oath + Dromoka/Ojutai control, I even cut few Orchards to make a breathing room for my planeswalkers. I was really stunned how many matches I was able to win just because most people had no Idea how to play against this kind of Oath deck that does not rely on the card Oath of Druids as much.

Just few observations.

That sounds like a nice possibility for adapting the list to MTGO's inability to pragmatically process infinite repetitions while still staying true to the deck's mission of exploiting Oath of Druids without crutching on it.  I might try that out IRL after Champs to see how it works.  Thank you for posting. 

[Aaron Patten]

I suspect the fact that little jace is only 2 mana will cause it to outperform big jace in many cases.  I would not be surprised if people start playing Vryn's Prodigy and cutting down on Mindsculptor just to avoid the planeswalker rule.  It's a totally different card of course but they have some overlap in the kind of decks that will play them.  

Also, regarding Ojutai, I have possitive experience playing it in an Oath shell. Basically, due to the fact that players won't scoop to Salvagers + Lotus combo on mtgo most of the time, I tweaked Brian Kelly's Oath deck and removed the combo, added more control cards + Ojutai instead of Salvagers. I was surprised how effective it is to Oath up this dragon. It is very easily casted from your hand, so it dodges all the Oath hate out there too. The deck can transform into pure Planeswalker/Oath + Dromoka/Ojutai control, I even cut few Orchards to make a breathing room for my planeswalkers. I was really stunned how many matches I was able to win just because most people had no Idea how to play against this kind of Oath deck that does not rely on the card Oath of Druids as much.

Just few observations.

That sounds like a nice possibility for adapting the list to MTGO's inability to pragmatically process infinite repetitions while still staying true to the deck's mission of exploiting Oath of Druids without crutching on it.  I might try that out IRL after Champs to see how it works.  Thank you for posting.  

I will be testing this also.  I'm looking forward to seeing some more creative oath lists that don't depend on oath.  Has been my favorite style for many years.  

Edit: Also, congrats on your win.  It was well deserved.

[TheBrassMan]

I ran 2x Jace, Vryn's Prodigy (in a deck quite different to the ones in this thread) at Eternal Weekend and was very impressed. My understanding is that the Dragon deck top 8'd the Saturday prelim (over 100 players), and the pilot spoke very highly of them as well.

At a single local 4 round event I attacked for lethal with Jace, flipped it with combat damage on stack, used it very effectively as a permanent looter through a Rest in Peace, and flashed back multiple spells in a row.

Over 4 matches at eternal weekend I won using his ultimate twice, which was not something I expected from the card - I had assumed the ultimate was completely unrealistic, but it won me two games I would have otherwise lost.

I fully suspect Jace, Vryn's Prodigy is the real deal, and I look forward to running more in the future.

[Chubby Rain]

I ran 2x Jace, Vryn's Prodigy (in a deck quite different to the ones in this thread) at Eternal Weekend and was very impressed. My understanding is that the Dragon deck top 8'd the Saturday prelim (over 100 players), and the pilot spoke very highly of them as well.

For the record, this was not me

Thanks for the report, Andy.

[Space_Stormy]

Also, regarding Ojutai, I have possitive experience playing it in an Oath shell. Basically, due to the fact that players won't scoop to Salvagers + Lotus combo on mtgo most of the time, I tweaked Brian Kelly's Oath deck and removed the combo, added more control cards + Ojutai instead of Salvagers. I was surprised how effective it is to Oath up this dragon. It is very easily casted from your hand, so it dodges all the Oath hate out there too. The deck can transform into pure Planeswalker/Oath + Dromoka/Ojutai control, I even cut few Orchards to make a breathing room for my planeswalkers. I was really stunned how many matches I was able to win just because most people had no Idea how to play against this kind of Oath deck that does not rely on the card Oath of Druids as much.

Just few observations.

That sounds like a nice possibility for adapting the list to MTGO's inability to pragmatically process infinite repetitions while still staying true to the deck's mission of exploiting Oath of Druids without crutching on it.  I might try that out IRL after Champs to see how it works.  Thank you for posting. 

I have to agree with this! The last time Oath was a big contender was back in old Extended, ignoring the strange combo-Oath decks that used 2x Cognivore as the kill, they ran Morphling, Spike Feeder and Spike Weaver as their creature suite, all which were easily castable from hand making there be less dead draws in the deck.  Having 1 dead draw rather than 2 or even 3 with some decks going all-in on Gristledad, effectively making Oath of Druids a free Worldly Tutor when facing Grafdigger's Cage makes the deck much more consistent and less susceptible to hate. Not that Auriok Salvagers doesn't do that already but sadly people don't give the courtesy scoop when in paper they would have lost.

[diopter]

How's baby Jace tactically vs Oath? I would suspect big Jace is a better card but a worse fit in most shells.

BrassMan: nice update. One Q: attack for lethal?

[Chubby Rain]

How's baby Jace tactically vs Oath? I would suspect big Jace is a better card but a worse fit in most shells.

Better than most other creatures as you can make him not a creature if your opponent plays Oath.