[ORG]Jace,Vryn's Prodigy//Jace, Telepath Unbound

[diopter]

Chubby: ok.

Getting more specific - what is the comparison with big Jace?

[brianpk80]

Thank you for the comment, Aaron. 

Baby Jace is the real deal without a doubt.  And it's a completely different card than Snapcaster Mage despite superficial similarities.  I've been wanting to try it in a Cavern Human Fish deck as a selection method and means of looting away those annoying extra copies of Thalia when running the full 4. 

[Chubby Rain]

Chubby: ok.

Getting more specific - what is the comparison with big Jace?

What is the comparison with big Jace in the Oath matchup? Jace has an obvious application as he is a noncreature win condition against a deck that punishes the existence of creatures and has virtually no way to deal with a resolved Jace (assuming Fenton Oath, here). Tiny Jace can take over the game if played on turn 1 and flipped before they get Oath active (not necessarily difficult). Flashing back the right combination of spells generally puts you in the driver's seat from that position. For instance, one match I had against Oath involved Thoughtseize into Jace, flip Jace, flashback Thoughtseize, Recall, uptick Jace, Flashback Recall. We got there in that game... On the flip side, the fact that Tiny Jace starts out as a creature makes it worse if your opponent is able to force through an early Oath of Druids - future Tiny Jaces become a bit dead there as you need removal for the Oath or Time Walk to flip him.

As far as what would I run if I were to play against nothing but Oath? Obviously, you don't want to play any creatures against Oath if you can help it...

[Islandswamp]

I ran 2x Jace, Vryn's Prodigy (in a deck quite different to the ones in this thread) at Eternal Weekend and was very impressed. My understanding is that the Dragon deck top 8'd the Saturday prelim (over 100 players), and the pilot spoke very highly of them as well.

At a single local 4 round event I attacked for lethal with Jace, flipped it with combat damage on stack, used it very effectively as a permanent looter through a Rest in Peace, and flashed back multiple spells in a row.

Over 4 matches at eternal weekend I won using his ultimate twice, which was not something I expected from the card - I had assumed the ultimate was completely unrealistic, but it won me two games I would have otherwise lost.

I fully suspect Jace, Vryn's Prodigy is the real deal, and I look forward to running more in the future.

I'd be testing baby Jace online myself if it wasn't so expensive at this point. I'm hoping it dips a little bit soon, I'm very interested in trying it, but at this point I don't want to invest a lot more cash into MTGO (and "prizing" your way to buying them is pretty difficult with play points).

I'm glad to see that Chubby Rain's prediction has seemingly panned out!

[xouman]

I have a question about playing 4 Jace,Vryn's Prodigy. Imagine you have a flipped Jace, Telepath Unbound in table, and a Jace,Vryn's Prodigy in hand, and no Fows, or have other blue cards in hand. Which is the correct call, to play Prodigy or keep it in hand (I assume that it's worth playing it, but I'm not sure). And what about activating it, supposing that would flip it and thus sending one of the telepaths to the grave?

Thanks in advance!

[Aaron Patten]

I'd say if you're expecting a removal heavy list he's safer in your hand but they will still have the opportunity to take him out before he flips barring haste so he may as well be in play unless you're baiting removal with another threat on the table.  If you think flipped jace is going to be toast soon then that's going to add weight to the line where the second jace is already in play.  That way you're making the mana investment while you can.  

[Chubby Rain]

Follow up on Mike Majors' adventures in Modern: http://www.starcitygames.com/article/31442_The-Vryns-Prodigy-Hat-Trick.html

"Let's just cut to the chase...Jace Vryn's Prodigy is not only more than capable of competing in Modern, but will soon see play in every format. Over the next few years I suspect he may prove to be one of the best two-drops ever printed."

I've found a soul brother. Interesting sidenote is that he runs Snapcaster Mage and Jace in the same deck, which is reasonable in Vintage especially in Gifts decks.

[TheBrassMan]

BrassMan: nice update. One Q: attack for lethal?

I may or may not have been on Jesaki Ascendancy.

[Islandswamp]

I'd try this guy right now if I could. It's cheaper in paper at the moment I think.

It's probably likely to be able to untap with Jace, loot, flip him, and flashback the card you just discarded, which seems pretty good actually. I'm sure that the more play these see, the more Lightning Bolt (and to a lesser extent Swords to Plowshares) will see play.

Do you ever try to wait to use it in response to a removal spell so that you can exile and flip it before it would die? Like, if you smell a removal spell or something? Not sure that's a valid tactic or not, it just popped into my head seconds ago.

[gkraigher]

I think it's time to stop calling him "baby Jace" and start calling him "The Prodigy"

[serracollector]

This guy and Anger really play nice together. I believe we will see several new builds due to this guy. And um Prodigy def still belongs to my friend aka Tim.

[H]

I think it's time to stop calling him "baby Jace" and start calling him "The Prodigy"

I think the nomenclature should be as follows:

Jace = Mindsculptor
Little Jace = Beleren
Baby Jace = Vryn's Prodigy

Prodigy is baby Jace because, first, he costs less than every other Jace.  Second, it's a Jace that 'grows up' while in play.

[Aaron Patten]

Do you ever try to wait to use it in response to a removal spell so that you can exile and flip it before it would die? Like, if you smell a removal spell or something? Not sure that's a valid tactic or not, it just popped into my head seconds ago.

Totes!  They have to wait until you're the one needing to flip Jace before they play their removal or it's wasted.  Best case scenario, they're leaving mana up for him just sitting on the table and that means you're up tempo.  The times I've seen him played he acted as a mini moat that slowly ticked up card advantage.  The opposing players entire game plan was to take out jace but he's remarkably tough to kill once flipped.  When he flips against a swarm he's going to flash back removal that you've already played so there's two creatures down and the third is going to get -2'd forever.  If you don't have the removal he's still at 6 the turn he flips (if you want) so it almost always takes several turns to get rid of him and by then he's done his job distracting your opponent from playing the real game that you're preparing for behind little jace.  It feels like a return to old school keeper style control which I absolutely love.  He's forcing your opponent to deal with him and the best way to do that, if they didn't get their chance with the removal spell, is to attack.  If they're investing all their mana in attackers then they're not doing other things and you're winning the tempo race for a 2 mana investment while gaining card advantage after the first flashback.  It's like he's aggressively defensive

This guy and Anger really play nice together. I believe we will see several new builds due to this guy. And um Prodigy def still belongs to my friend aka Tim.

Yes, and even better with effects like Corpse Dance since he dodges the drawback.  He even works with Whip of Erebos (My favorite so far).  

[wappla]

Vryn's Prodigy has been testing great as a one and two-of in Delver and Mentor. His looting ability is great in the deck's worst matchups, while his Snapcaster ability has enough utility to be a weapon against blue decks. He makes sideboard cards better. It's understandable why people don't get excited about something that makes it more likely to find a Grafdigger's Cage or Rest in Peace against Dredge, or a land drop against Workshops. Desperately digging for cards to survive for another turn isn't an area of the game people really enjoy, and that's where he makes one of his biggest contributions. I understand playing him in combo shells, but Delver is great at taking advantage of how he differs from Snapcaster- his ability to flashback spells without additional cost.

[wappla]

While pretty underdeveloped at the moment, I have no doubt that Gush + Jace + Thoughtseize will prove to be the core of some very viable control or combo-control decks. ChubbyRain ran two Thoughtseize in an Esper Combo-Control shell and in the Dragon deck. In Modern, where Thoughtseize and Inquisition of Kozilek are the equivalent of Force of Will in eternal formats, they've adapted Jace into the Grixis decks. I was biking home from work when I thought of a sequence of turns.

T1 Thoughtseize: taking their best turn 2 play, or possibly turn 3 play depending on play/draw
T2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
T3 Gush, loot with Jace, flip Jace, replay Thoughtseize, have two mana to do something else

This sort of sequence utterly destroys most blue decks, including those who try to combo off before the Gush engine comes online. T1 Thoughtseize significantly boosts game 1 percentage against Workshops as well, arguably more than T1 Delver. Thoughtseize helps protect Jace, ensuring he can stick around to dominate the midgame. Depending on your own draw, you can force your opponent into the control or aggro role by taking their card draw or permission, leaving them with a threat, or you can take their threat if you can't otherwise deal with it. The nature of Vintage decks is that discard can often easily push them into a strategic role. It's not like in most formats where Thoughtseize is simply hitting one of four creatures. You are able to create highly reproducible game states in turns five and six because the combination of Vryn's Prodigy, Thoughtseize, and Gush is just more precise and more versatile than engines relying on Gitaxian Probe, Cabal Therapy, JTMS, Notion Thief, or Dack Fayden to complement their restricted blue spells, and the Dig Through Time, Preordain, Gush engine. Despite having a worse top-end, Thoughtseize is overall a much stronger spell than Cabal Therapy, especially in game 1 or on turn 1.

The list and earlier variants of it are currently 15-1 in testing


URB Vryn's Thoughts
3 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
3 Thoughtseize
1 Dack Fayden
3 Young Pyromancer

3 Lightning Bolt
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Fire // Ice

3 Gush
3 Dig Through Time
4 Preordain
1 Ponder
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Time Walk
1 Treasure Cruise

4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
2 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm

1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Strip Mine

Sideboard:
2 Mountain
2 Izzet Staticaster
1 Null Rod
1 Karakas
3 Pulverize
1 Rakdos Charm
3 Ravenous Trap
1 Pithing Needle
1 Vampiric Tutor

This is really a hybrid control deck that is significantly less aggressive than any Delver decks and many Mentor builds. Young Pyromancer is really late-game finisher that has the ability to come down early and race if needed. The ability to go wide and play defense against other token decks and against Workshops or Hatebears makes Pyromancer a bit better as a win condition than things like Snapcaster, Vendilion Clique, Tasigur, Gurmag Angler, or Tinker targets. Pyromancer reduces the need for board sweepers like Toxic Deluge and allows you to hold serve against early aggressive starts from opposing Mentors or Pyromancers. Having a one dimension threat that is severely neutered by something like Engineered Plague is remedied by Jace ultimate being a viable secondary win condition.

The sideboard is far from perfect, but problems with Oath are fairly inherent for any fair Grixis deck. The colors just don't have good ways of dealing with enchantments, and Grafdigger's Cage has long since been a sound gameplan. Running Cage alongside Jace is self-defeating, as well. Like the Grixis Therapy deck, I've accepted a weak Oath matchup and chosen to run a compact Vampiric Tutor + Karakas plan. Combined with Thoughtseizes and potentially Pithing Needle to shut off Griselbrand or Salvager activations, this gives the deck a plan if it can survive the first couple turns. Null Rod also comes in against some builds of Oath. Dredge is attacked with four graveyard emptying spells, Pithing Needle to shut off Bazaar or Thespian's Stage, Strip Mine, and Vamp Tutor to find any of it.

Workshops is approached with the knowledge that I am very much the control deck in that matchup. We sideboard up to 22 mana sources and 18 lands and wait as long as possible to Pulverize. Null Rod and double Staticaster do a ton of work against the MUD decks that are trying to evade Pulverize. Rakdos Charm and Pithing Needle also come in. The combination of Jace, Dack and Staticaster is a lot of on board presence and Kolaghan's Command, Null Rod, Fire // Ice, and Pulverize are also sources of card advantage. Ingot Chewer makes a sense in decks that can take advantage of the window or just need to buy a turn, but in testing I found that trading one for one with Chewers was fairly impotent in this shell.

Staticaster is pretty good against Workshops. It can be flashed in under a Tangle Wire. It is a good blocker. It can combine with a Pyromancer to answer a Lodestone Golem. It can combine with a token to kill a Factory. It is great at clearing Revokers. And it is great against Thopter Tokens. It taxes their Revokers, helping Jace and Dack and Moxen. Against Gush aggro decks one or both of the Staticasters also come in. The card is just so much better in the control role than sweepers like Deluge or Engineered Plague. Like Fire // Ice, it pitches to Force of Will. It should be mentioned that the four looters maindeck greatly strengthens sideboard cards. Thoughtseize also boosts fringe and unanticipated matchups.

There is a lot of room in both the maindeck and sideboard for pushing this shell in different directions. I would say arguably eight to eleven slots in the main are flexible and nothing in the sideboard, save a basic Mountain, is set in stone.

[Chubby Rain]

Awesome deck, Wappa. In addition, if you are NotinKansasAnymore on MTGO, congrats on the 3-0 with the deck.

One thing to consider is putting a single Tundra in the sideboard, which would give you access to Wear//Tear (awesome with Jace) and Containment Priest for the Oath match up (with splash applications against Shops and Oath).

[wappla]

MTGO and at least two judges I've asked about it say that Containment Priest exiles Jace when he's trying to flip. I'm still unsure of whether that's the correct interaction, but I would definitely want to find out before using them alongside each other.

[Aaron Patten]

Containment priest can't exile Jace, Telepath Unbound since it isn't a creature. 

[Chubby Rain]

Containment priest can't exile Jace, Telepath Unbound since it isn't a creature. 

That's my understanding of how it works. Disappointing if MTGO has that programmed wrong but it's not like my expectations are very high...

[wappla]

After discussing it some more, I've been told it is indeed a MTGO bug.

This equivalent example was cited to me:

2. Assuming that there is an empty board state when Collected Company is cast, will Hallowed Moonlight prevent Athreos from entering the battlefield?


A: 614.12 applies to Hallowed Moonlight exactly the same as it applies to Imposing Sovereign. Under the Moonlight, a Theros God that’s entering the battlefield off a Collected Company (or Chord of Calling, or Birthing Pod, etc.) will be exiled if and only if its controller already has sufficient devotion to the appropriate color(s) on the board for it to be a creature. The God’s own mana symbols are not taken into account, nor are the symbols of any other permanents that happen to be trying to enter the battlefield at the same time.
So in the given situation, with Athreos arriving onto an empty board, Hallowed Moonlight will not apply, and Athreos will enter the battlefield unhindered.
Approved by Callum Milne, L2, Netrep, Nanaimo Canada
Source: http://apps.magicjudges.org/forum/topic/20533/

from http://blogs.magicjudges.org/blog/2015/09/11/magic-judge-monthly-august-2015/

[CHA1N5]

Can someone clarify the MTGO bug?  Does Containment Priest exile Jace, Telepath when Prodigy's flip trigger resolves?

[bactgudz]

I'm not 100% sure it is a bug.  I would think entering transformed is a replacement effect, just like entering tapped.  In this case, it is unclear to me if Containment Priest actually should be able to stop Jace from coming back, since technically Priest prevents the action to be replaced a priori.

Would be good to have judge clarification.

Edit: nm, just saw that Priest is worded as a replacement effect as well, not a rule change preventing entering.  In that case, Jace's owner should be able to choose which replacement effect to apply first, Containment Priest or entering flipped.  Does it let you click on either Priest or Jace when this is happening?  If not, it looks like that choice is what is missing and it is always selecting Priest.

Edit2: Man, this is even more confusing than I thought reading the transform rules, I'm going to submit this to Cranial insertion:
a)
701.25:
 While a double-faced card is not on the battlefield, consider only the characteristics of its front face.
b) So how could we ever consider Jace not a creature until he is actually back on the battlefield from exile?
c) How could he even get on the battlefield in the first place if Containment Priest is out?

It's not clear to me that 614.12, that drives the Athreos example applies here:
614.12. Some replacement effects modify how a permanent enters the battlefield. (See rules 614.1c–d.) Such effects may come from the permanent itself if they affect only that permanent (as opposed to a general subset of permanents that includes it). They may also come from other sources. To determine how and whether these replacement effects apply, check the characteristics of the permanent as it would exist on the battlefield, taking into account replacement effects that have already modified how it enters the battlefield (see 616.1), continuous effects generated by the resolution of spells or abilities that changed the permanent’s characteristics on the stack (see rule 400.7a), and continuous effects from the permanent’s own static abilities, but ignoring continuous effects from any other source that would affect it.

That rule is pretty explicit in what you take into account and what you don't and I'm not sure where 701.25 fits in that list.

[Chubby Rain]

Regarding Athreos, it is considered to be a creature in all other zones: You can Oath into it. You can Remove Soul it. You can Living Wish for it.

"The type-changing ability that can make the God not be a creature functions only on the battlefield. It’s always a creature card in other zones, regardless of your devotion to its color."

From the Gatherling page on Athreos.

What the example mentioned before implies is that replacement effects predict the future based on the present. The relevant rules text is (http://mtgsalvation.gamepedia.com/Replacement_effect):

614.12. Some replacement effects modify how a permanent enters the battlefield. (See rules 614.1c–d.) Such effects may come from the permanent itself if they affect only that permanent (as opposed to a general subset of permanents that includes it). They may also come from other sources. To determine which replacement effects apply and how they apply, check the characteristics of the permanent as it would exist on the battlefield, taking into account replacement effects that have already modified how it enters the battlefield (see rule 616.1), continuous effects generated by the resolution of spells or abilities that changed the permanent’s characteristics on the stack (see rule 400.7a), and continuous effects from the permanent’s own static abilities, but ignoring continuous effects from any other source that would affect it.

The replacement effect checks to see how Atheros (or Jace) would exist on the battlefield. If the conditions would be met, the replacement effect is applied and alters the event. It is quite clear that Jace will not exist on the battlefield as a creature when returned to play and therefore Containment Priest has no effect.

Edit: Adrian edited his post while I was constructing mine. What 614.12 implies is that replacement effects that affect how a permanent enters the battlefield (i.e. Containment Priest) care about the card "as it would exist on the battlefield". 701.25c is not applicable as 614.12 doesn't care about the card when not on the battlefield.

[bactgudz]

The replacement effect checks to see how Atheros (or Jace) would exist on the battlefield. If the conditions would be met, the replacement effect is applied and alters the event. It is quite clear that Jace will not exist on the battlefield as a creature when returned to play and therefore Containment Priest has no effect.

614.12 does not say to consider how it exists on the battlefield cart blanche, it gives an explicit list of things to consider.  I don't see anything that covers the ruling from 701.25.  On Athreos for instance, you do not consider that as it exists on the battlefield it adds 2 to your devotion, so as the previously mentioned ruling says Containment Priest would exile Athreos if your devotion is already 7 or more, but not if he himself would get you there.

[Chubby Rain]

The replacement effect checks to see how Atheros (or Jace) would exist on the battlefield. If the conditions would be met, the replacement effect is applied and alters the event. It is quite clear that Jace will not exist on the battlefield as a creature when returned to play and therefore Containment Priest has no effect.

614.12 does not say to consider how it exists on the battlefield cart blanche, it gives an explicit list of things to consider.  I don't see anything that covers the ruling from 701.25.  On Athreos for instance, you do not consider that as it exists on the battlefield it adds 2 to your devotion, so as the previously mentioned ruling says Containment Priest would exile Athreos if your devotion is already 7 or more, but not if he himself would get you there.

The rule states "to determine which replacement effects apply and how they apply" which implies that you do this for every replacement effect. It then goes on to list circumstances that are factored in to "the characteristics of the permanent as it would exist on the battlefield", i.e. other replacement effects and continuous effects from the card's static abilities. Athreos has a static ability (the devotion) and that is why it is taken into account and checked based on the current board state without Athreos in play. I think you are getting bogged down in the details, Adrian. The short of it is a replacement effect asks "would a specific event occur" and then modifies it. Containment Priest asks "will a nontoken creature come into play without being cast". This does not occur during Jace's transformation.

[Aaron Patten]

It doesn't occur when oathing into Keranos either.  You would need to fulfill his devotion for the priest to exile the god off oath or reanimate.  Keranos is Tech against Priest in Oath.

[bactgudz]

I may very well be getting bogged down in details, I do tend to do that, but I'm just not convinced one way or the another.  I've submitted it to a judge list to see what bounces back.

Here's another cr entry for instance:
711.5. Except for determining whether or not a permanent can transform, a spell, ability, effect, or rule that needs information about a double-faced permanent sees only the information given by the face that’s currently up.

Even if we are supposed to be evaluating it as it would exist on the battlefield in the context of being back-face up, it is still front-face up during this evaluation, so I don't see how 614.12 can even get the characteristic info of the back side.

[Chubby Rain]

711.5. Except for determining whether or not a permanent can transform, a spell, ability, effect, or rule that needs information about a double-faced permanent sees only the information given by the face that’s currently up.

Even if we are supposed to be evaluating it as it would exist on the battlefield in the context of being back-face up, it is still front-face up during this evaluation, so I don't see how 614.12 can even get the characteristic info of the back side.

So by this rule, if Jace is being returned to the battlefield transformed as the Telepath Unbound, how can Containment Priest get the info that Jace used to be a creature?

[Aaron Patten]

There is an effect causing it to enter the battlefield transformed (past tense) so it is already transformed.  I'm sure if you're searching a zone it is a creature but the ability states you must flip it prior to it entering thee battlefield.  That's the wording anyhow.  Maybe the state of being flipped when not in the battlefield zone is not so strict?  Maybe it is the default case and abilities can modify that state?  It sure seems to be worded that way, otherwise how would he ever transform in the first place?  The wording would be incorrect in that case (Not that it isn't a possibility).

[bactgudz]

711.5. Except for determining whether or not a permanent can transform, a spell, ability, effect, or rule that needs information about a double-faced permanent sees only the information given by the face that’s currently up.

Even if we are supposed to be evaluating it as it would exist on the battlefield in the context of being back-face up, it is still front-face up during this evaluation, so I don't see how 614.12 can even get the characteristic info of the back side.

So by this rule, if Jace is being returned to the battlefield transformed as the Telepath Unbound, how can Containment Priest get the info that Jace used to be a creature?

Containment Priest doesn't ask what something used to be, it asks what it is in some context.  While asking this question, It seems very possible that the only info Priest has access to is the front-face of the card; and if you ask when seeing the front face, you get a clear answer that this is a creature.  Remember, there is just one object here, but 2 mutually exclusive sets of characteristics with the one being available corresponding to what is currently face up.

Similarly 614.12 asks what it will be in some context to see if Priest even applies and gets to ask, but again no matter what context it tries to ask that question in this rule seems to imply that it can only see the front face.  As evidenced by Athreos possibilities, the answer that 614.12 gets to it's question and what the thing actually ends up being when all is said and done do not always coincide.