Gold border legalization article

[TheWhiteDragon]

It's because they look real.  It would increase the supply of legal cards and thus (hopefully) drop the price of REAL cards.  Then more folks would buy up the real cards after a price dip.  The prices would then inflate again once the supply dried up again, but then you'd have dozens more people invested in Vintage (unless speculators/collectors buy them up first after a price dip).

The goal is to get prices down and more players in.  Sharpieing up a deck means people can test the waters and bail without a second thought.  Once people pay money for vintage cards (real or CE), they are less likely to abandon it.

[rikter]

I think if the fakes get that good it might drive the market a bit on the played stuff. I remember reading something a while back, and through personal experience (I have some fakes as old as the game itself...biggest difference is the black text wasn't over printed and they lack the middle blue piece) that the fakes don't wear properly.

In a world where the market is getting filled with indistinguishable high end fakes, a card in lesser condition, but that you can authenticate through its imperfections, might increase in value.

Nice to know my beat-to-crap power will soon be worth more than mint betas, hahaha.

I don't mean that the played stuff will be worth more than an authentic mint card, but that the gap in value between a played version and a nicer version might close.

[covetousrat]

http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/3bidx8/the_new_batch_of_chinese_fakes_has_been_produced/

[rikter]

It's because they look real.  It would increase the supply of legal cards and thus (hopefully) drop the price of REAL cards.  Then more folks would buy up the real cards after a price dip.  The prices would then inflate again once the supply dried up again, but then you'd have dozens more people invested in Vintage (unless speculators/collectors buy them up first after a price dip).

The goal is to get prices down and more players in.  Sharpieing up a deck means people can test the waters and bail without a second thought.  Once people pay money for vintage cards (real or CE), they are less likely to abandon it.

I personally would rather have people sharpie the deck than change the supply of legal cards. Why alter the supply when you can have the same effect by just allowing proxies? With blue duals where they are it's not a terrible time to trade into Vintage, which is what I did. I converted a lot of my extra stuff into power, some of which is played, but some of which is nice. I figured I would rather have a legit Vintage deck than a million extra cards that were realistically just going to sit in a binder. And if it's going to just be sitting, then RL cards are your best bet, because they continue to appreciate and you don't have to worry about losing half the value on a reprint.

It's all a matter of priorities. There are a lot of players that have binders loaded with inventory that's just sitting there, there are a lot of expensive modern cards that people could trade in. A lot of stores at the bigger events will give you a 20% trade in bonus (I've gotten as high as 25%), which means you will be trading the cards at the same value you would get if you sold them on ebay and subtract out the fees. Given the way Wizards has been trying to price control Modern, it seems like total insanity to me to maintain a large stock of those cards if you aren't incredibly active churning them, because if it's worth anything it's going to get printed again and again until it isn't. If you're going to have assets sitting in a binder, it just makes sense to me to make sure those assets are the few cards that have NEVER gone down.

You don't have to be a millionaire to play Vintage, lord knows I'm not. The Time Walk I just picked up was paid for almost entirely by trading in 25 cent cards. Seriously. Of the 5500 cards I brought in, there were only 8 cards worth between $5-$10, plus one City of Traitors. If you've been in the game a long time, you could almost certainly do the same. Dealers are in a good position to capitalize on the smaller value cards, which are really inefficient to get rid of for most people. You can trade up gigantic piles of quarters into something that will appreciate better and which is efficient for you to sell. You would be surprised at the deals you can get if you get into the scene and make some friends.

I don't think Vintage is ever going to be a format for "the many". I think it's a format for people who have been in the game a long time, and that that is how it will always be. I believe that expanded coverage of, and an expanded number of, Vintage events can help drive membership. I believe that clearing up misconceptions of Vintage as just being nothing but turn 1 kills can help drive membership. I think the best way to drive membership is at Legacy events that feature Vintage Sundays with proxies (Eternal Extravaganza), where you can recruit people. Legacy players are more equipped to get into the format.

 Really, Modern is a hugely popular format that saw people over the last year dump 7-$800 into playsets of Tarmogoyf. People will dump $400 to get their Snapcasters, their Lili's, Cliques etc. You can get Moxes for that type of money. Modern isn't cheap, by any means, but people manage it. Like I said, it's a matter of priorities.

[nedleeds]

Sanctioned vintage is better than non sanctioned vintage, it's really that simple. Proxies suck, sharpied cards suck. CE/IE are Magic cards, they look and feel everything like Magic cards with the exception of the corners, they are produced by WotC. Altering the supply may allow a hundred more people to play sanctioned vintage. Doesn't seem like a ton but in the niche world of vintage it is.

[rikter]

Sanctioned vintage is better than non sanctioned vintage, it's really that simple. Proxies suck, sharpied cards suck. CE/IE are Magic cards, they look and feel everything like Magic cards with the exception of the corners, they are produced by WotC. Altering the supply may allow a hundred more people to play sanctioned vintage. Doesn't seem like a ton but in the niche world of vintage it is.

The thing about legal CE vs proxies is, that right now the CE stuff will run you about $100 per Mox. If those Moxes are suddenly legal Magic cards, what's going to happen to the price? My guess is that it doubles. That may even be a conservative estimate. It's still a barrier to entry, albeit lower, but a barrier none the less. At least with proxies the barrier is much lower, especially for those who play blue decks in Legacy, because they don't have to outlay as much.

Vintage events, and the people who attend them, are really so awesome that I think they speak for themselves. I don't believe we need to force people to lay out a good chunk of coin on CE just so that they are invested and more likely to stay. If someone comes to this awesome party and doesn't like it enough to stay, oh well. I think those guys are the minority.

The other thing about legalizing the CE stuff is that you almost double the supply, it's about 15,000 copies of each power card. That's simply too much of an increase for me to stomach, personally.

[gribdogs]

People like to own real cards, plain and simple.  Proxies are great if you want to test the water out, but they won't keep people in Vintage.  The real staying power is to allow new people to own the cards for real.  If legalizing gold borders increases, even by a handful, that group then it would be worth it. 

It'll never happen, though, so gold borders are just the best proxies you can buy; unless you prefer alternate art and/or foils.

[rikter]

People like to own real cards, plain and simple.  Proxies are great if you want to test the water out, but they won't keep people in Vintage.  The real staying power is to allow new people to own the cards for real.  If legalizing gold borders increases, even by a handful, that group then it would be worth it. 

It'll never happen, though, so gold borders are just the best proxies you can buy; unless you prefer alternate art and/or foils.

That's a good point about owning the actual cards, but with the current slate of big events you really only NEED them all for Eternal Weekend. If we're talking about just realistically adding a bit of new blood, I think the biggest things you can do are:

1) Support as best you can the existing Vintage events. By providing the most solid player base we can, we can ensure that the prize pools are juicy, which is certainly one way players who don't own the cards can get them. By doing this we also generate great event photos and tournament reports that can be used to entice people to show up to the next event. If you can't go, visit the websites that host the coverage, watch the videos and such. The web traffic can generate ad revenue for the folks who organize and support the events.

2) Be an ambassador for the format. Reach out to Legacy players, particularly at 2 day events with Legacy and Vintage. Many of those guys could trade into power, and have enough stuff as it is to play 10 proxy. Just get them in the door. I had a buddy I just got into Vintage; he reluctantly sleeved up the Oath deck I was recommending (he plays Legacy Sneak and Show), all it took was one Yawgmoths Will and he was hooked. I like to give deck recommendations based on their Legacy deck, so for Sneak and Show and Reanimator I recommend Oath. Death and Taxes I recommend Shops, Miracles I might recommend Mentor etc. I basically just try and turn them on to a Vintage deck that is philosophically or spiritually similar to something they already play, because I think that will make the transition easier.

3) Dispel the myths. Vintage is not all turn 1 kills. Vintage is incredibly interactive. The biggest one: you need to be incredibly rich to own all the cards. This last one just isn't true for many people who play the more expensive formats. I have a buddy who was happy to play dredge and proxy the Bazaars. In the end I convinced him to take some of his 1,000,000 (est) $1, $2, $5 cards  and convert them. The stuff was just sitting, it wasn't getting played, and in the end he came to the same conclusion that I did, which was that his collection and deck were better off with the Bazaars than a large amount of Commander crap.

Using the above methods I have added 2 more players to our ranks, and am working on a third. It isn't much, but it's something, and these are things we can all do that wouldn't require possibly hurting the value of the real cards.

[MaximumCDawg]

http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/3bidx8/the_new_batch_of_chinese_fakes_has_been_produced/

Aaaaaand now the major Chinese operations are hitting Vintage as well in a serious way.

Welp, secondary market, it was nice to know you.  It will be interesting to see how stores use grading and authentication systems to jack up the price of older cards even more, now, and particularly interesting to see the first high-profile disqualification due to fake cards happen on camera.

I give these events like, three years, tops.

[jcb193]

I've seen TONS of the Chinese fakes (from about 15-20 different providers).  Of the 500+ cards, only two of them were really, really good, and none ever passed all the tests.  Something always looks off, or fails light test, or feels weird.  Some of the modern fakes look really good, and I can't tell difference, but of the vintage cards, you usually can just see that something is off.

I sold most of my collection 10yrs ago fearing counterfeits as an inevitability (20yr old printing technology can't be duplicated, really?) and we know that was a mistake  (bye bye two sets of beta and about 40 BB duals)....but alas, I still think I did the right thing. Vintage was on life support, and fakes seemed inevitable.

That said, the fakes are still pretty noticeable, ESPECIALLY on old cards, when held side by side.  I've seen a great Mox Sapphire, a great Mana Crypt, and a decent Bazaar.  That's about it.  Most beta fakes are pretty bad.

[MaximumCDawg]

Were the older fakes part of a large-scale print run like these, though?  Scuttlebutt is that these producers are selling commercial lots.  You need to spend like $800.00 or so to order a big print run before you can get them, you can't buy singles from the factory.

Whether you can tell the difference with a jeweler's loupe is not the issue here as much as whether the volume of fakes is going to be ticking up dramatically.  The prior print runs from these large-scale operators were Modern and some Legacy cards... these are the first large-scale mox fakes I've seen yet.

[jcb193]

Sorry, I meant older as in Vintage old, not older proxies. I've seen all the newest ones.  Not interchangeable, but definitely will eventually affect the secondary market I would bet.  Maybe not for tournament players, but definitely for casual/cube players.