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Author Topic: MTGO Play Points & changes to Dailies  (Read 13483 times)
The Atog Lord
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« Reply #30 on: July 21, 2015, 10:25:06 pm »

Great article.
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« Reply #31 on: July 22, 2015, 01:28:02 am »

A good blog on this topic by Heath.
Take his advice and send your thoughts to WOTC.
I certainly will be.

http://blog.mtgprice.com/2015/07/21/understanding-the-changes-to-mtgo-payouts/


Big long post about how the math here is wrong and its not so bad if they weren't untradeable deleted after Lee fixed his stupid typo which said dailies were now only 8 players


Funny thing is, under the new structure it is now cheaper to run a player run de with either $ or tix below:


have 16 people pay you $12 a piece: $192 revenue

pay 4 wins: 6 packs+$36
pay 3 wins: 3 packs+$18

Buy 18 packs from the store(secondary market if tix): $72 cost (less if tix)
cash prizes: $108 cost

profit: $12 (more if tix)

« Last Edit: July 22, 2015, 02:04:03 am by bactgudz » Logged
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« Reply #32 on: July 22, 2015, 03:01:25 am »

A good blog on this topic by Heath.
Take his advice and send your thoughts to WOTC.
I certainly will be.

http://blog.mtgprice.com/2015/07/21/understanding-the-changes-to-mtgo-payouts/


For a person who never sells his packs or his tickets or his cards... you act like these changes would affect you. Oh, I guess they do because other players are cashing out... well, you can find them and me on XMage.

This change is going to happen. The best you could hope for is a lower entry fee for Dailies, but that's it. We all will be stuck with Play Points, because "going infinite" was just too easy and not worth it for Wotc.
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« Reply #33 on: July 22, 2015, 11:45:20 am »

Wow, these changes are grade-A bullshit, and I wouldn't be surprised if they effectively kill the MTGO Vintage scene. I wouldn't even mind being paid in company scrip for winning a two-man, if the house didn't take a ludicrous 13% cut per match.
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« Reply #34 on: July 22, 2015, 01:22:38 pm »

I am selling out solely based on the UI ... I didn't even care about perceived EV. I bought into everything for shops 2-3 months ago and it's just unusable and doesn't help me get better at real Magic.
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« Reply #35 on: July 22, 2015, 01:40:49 pm »

I am selling out solely based on the UI ... I didn't even care about perceived EV. I bought into everything for shops 2-3 months ago and it's just unusable and doesn't help me get better at real Magic.

I thought long and hard about buying into MTGO Vintage just to have an extra avenue to play, but ultimately decided to just plow the 1k or so it would've taken into my paper stuff instead. I'm lucky enough to live in the Northeast and have access to more events though.

MTGO is a real wasted opportunity, it has so much potential. Oh well, maybe someday.
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« Reply #36 on: July 22, 2015, 04:54:07 pm »

It's official, just cashed out to CardHoarders. Was easy to do and they offered the best price. Would deal with them again (if I ever bought back in and then cashed out...).
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« Reply #37 on: July 22, 2015, 07:39:40 pm »

It's official, just cashed out to CardHoarders. Was easy to do and they offered the best price. Would deal with them again (if I ever bought back in and then cashed out...).


I'm sad to see another regular player go. I can't exactly just quit. Quitting MTGO means that I quit Magic altogether, and I quit my writing job. I just don't want to have do that.

I did sell my Shops deck prior to this, and I sold off 100 in tix and 200 in Misdirections (2x, very limited use) as a way of "downsizing" my collection, and hedging my bets a bit. I plan on keeping just the basic Vintage staples for Delver, Grixis, and a few mentor decks.

I'm going to email WotC again with a talley of all the players that have quit. Doubt it will help. I have 96 play points in my account already, they converted my Phantom Points I've never wanted to use into play points I don't want. Thanks a million Wizzo's!  Sad
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« Reply #38 on: July 22, 2015, 08:07:10 pm »

Can someone please explain, in simple terms, the rationale behind this change?  What is the upside?
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« Reply #39 on: July 22, 2015, 08:25:11 pm »

Can someone please explain, in simple terms, the rationale behind this change?  What is the upside?

The published reason is that you don't have to go and sell your packs to get into another event and packs will keep value closer to msrp.  

This is a little hard for me to believe.  The reality seems to be more so that Wizards wants more money.  That is to take a larger cut from players entries, and create more direct pack sales than just packs as prizes.  I'm sure they realized it might have a negative effect in the short term, but wanted greater long term profits.  
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« Reply #40 on: July 22, 2015, 08:48:17 pm »

Can someone please explain, in simple terms, the rationale behind this change?  What is the upside?

The published reason is that you don't have to go and sell your packs to get into another event and packs will keep value closer to msrp.  

This is a little hard for me to believe.  The reality seems to be more so that Wizards wants more money.  That is to take a larger cut from players entries, and create more direct pack sales than just packs as prizes.  I'm sure they realized it might have a negative effect in the short term, but wanted greater long term profits.  

EXACTLY. That's all. It's a cash-grab. Plain and simple.
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« Reply #41 on: July 22, 2015, 09:02:49 pm »

Can someone please explain, in simple terms, the rationale behind this change?  What is the upside?

Not sure if you were truly looking for an answer on this but I will attempt to field it. Wizards saw that the economy and current state of affairs of the MTGO economy was completely broken. This was most evident in the disparity between the MSRP of booster packs and their secondary market value. For most events offered the MSRP of prize support packs was roughly the value of the entry fees. While this is perfectly reasonable approach to prize support, the problem was the devalued secondary value of booster packs served as a disincentive to play in events and likely resulted in reduced revenue to Wizards as everyone knew not to purchase boosters at MSRP from the store.

In order to address the issue of devalued prize support Wizards wanted to create a system of prize support which essentially put a floor of the value of the prize support. This is how the play points nonsense was developed. The play points should address secondary market issues through both reducing supply and creating a fixed value (i.e. ability to play in future events). The glaring problem with this solution is that as play points are untradeable they have no secondary value and therefore are no longer a store of value for a large portion of the community. I earlier expressed that this didn't bother me as I primarily used event tickets to enter events anyway, but I realized I was missing the point, tickets are the de facto currency on MTGO and have a value as determined by the market. Any event that pays out in play points essentially removes value from the MTGO economy.

As mentioned the rationale was to create a method of prize support that creates a floor in value. It has been asked if the goal is to create a floor in prize support why not just offer Event tickets as prize support. I think the most likely reason that Event tickets as prize support is not possible is that it would run directly afoul of gambling laws in most jurisdictions. Although I am not an expert in that area it seems pooling a form of currency and dispersing based on a game of luck (and skill) would generally meet the definition of gambling. By creating a non-currency as a form of prize support Wizards likely avoids running afoul of these laws. So the upside is a prize support with a fixed value. The downside is a prize support that each recipient has to value individually and only being satisfied if entering events is sufficient compensation.

None of this justifies the abysmal rate at which they assigned prize support to the various tournament structures especially the daily events which have historically been MTGO's flagship events.
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« Reply #42 on: July 23, 2015, 04:30:23 am »

Steve, on top of Ahab's comments, it seems like the reason they had to put a floor on the value of prize support is because they undermined originally by hiking up the redemption price from $5 to $25. That made it worse value for people to convert sets accumulated on MTGO into real cards - and it was this link to physical goods which had previously ensured the value of prize packs.

This was a good read a few weeks ago on the problems the MTGO economy was facing.
http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/what-broke-the-magic-online-economy/

Note, it was written by an economist - but no one at WOTC saw the necessity of include an economist in its crack MTGO team... perhaps why the methods they are using to fix things seem ill-thought out at best and a cynical money grab at worst. 
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« Reply #43 on: July 23, 2015, 04:31:09 am »

I am still unsure how I feel about this. These changes don't have huge affect on me as I am not one of the players who goes infinite, I am just trying to enjoy the game and accept the fact that this hobby, much like any other hobby, has a cost related to it. Doing well on events meant that I was able to "slow bleed" my tix and actually I don't see that these changes really change that. If I do well I get more cheaper entries for future events, much like I did earlier, now I just don't have to trade tix to packs or packs to tix depending on if I want to play constructed or limited.

Im gonna give these changes some time before I want to take a hard stance on any direction.
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« Reply #44 on: July 23, 2015, 09:49:21 am »

MTGO Traders, The Card Nexus and many other sellers have noticed a sharp up tick in people liquidating their collections after this change, to the point that they are officially worried.  Some buyers have stopped buying collections all together.

If things do not change and change quickly, a death spiral could be triggered as the rats desert the sinking ship. 

The fact that the people selling were well establish players makes it more unlikely that any bandaids will bring them back.  There would need to be fundamental fixes to the program to restore confidence, something that Wizards has been eternally unable or unwilling to accomplish in the past.

I'm sure the team there is incredulous, believing that the people leaving are overreacting to the Play Points change, but their echo chamber completely ignores their horrendous track record and the abysmal state of their program.  I'm sure they all think that everything is normal and this is all just going to blow over, because everyone has been willing to stick around after all their other mistakes and broken promises.

If that truly is the case, they are gravely underestimating the impact that the loss of dedicated, heavily invested players has on their product.  I have lower than zero confidence that they are taking this with the appropriate seriousness and even less that they are willing or able to turn back the tide.

The complete lack of communication or understanding from Worth and friends is par for the course.

Had I any faith in Worth and team to fix this, any increase in panic would likely be a great buying opportunity, but they have failed so often and with such blatant lack of humility in their admission of said failures that there is no way I would risk more than I already have invested in this train wreck of a program.

Sorry for the rant.  At this point I'm just flailing around, trying to find a reason to not to sell out as well (if I can even still find a buyer).
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« Reply #45 on: July 23, 2015, 10:20:38 am »

KrauserKrauser, that was a great post. I agree with your sentiments entirely.

Quote
At this point I'm just flailing around, trying to find a reason to not to sell out as well (if I can even still find a buyer).

Indeed.
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« Reply #46 on: July 23, 2015, 11:17:46 am »

Out of curiosity: for what types of players are these changes neutral or good?

Also, as painful as it is for all concerned, won't this change succeed in increasing pack values?  I'm not making a value judgement about said, but everything I've read suggests this is one of the stated goals and this plan will (to some degree) achieve that goal.
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« Reply #47 on: July 23, 2015, 11:34:22 am »

I believe that people who exclusively play limited may see little change.  On the other hand, while the changes do seem likely to increase pack prices somewhat, my understanding of the various analyses I've seen is that it's very unlikely any increase will be enough to justify the change; players will have to do better to break even.  Furthermore, if the change decreases demand enough by driving players away, pack prices won't recover the way we'd all like anyway
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« Reply #48 on: July 23, 2015, 11:34:46 am »

Out of curiosity: for what types of players are these changes neutral or good?

Also, as painful as it is for all concerned, won't this change succeed in increasing pack values?  I'm not making a value judgement about said, but everything I've read suggests this is one of the stated goals and this plan will (to some degree) achieve that goal.

I don't know who benefits from these changes other than wizard's of the coast.

For daily events to fire, there has to be players that are willing to lose a lot. All of the folks who never win more than a match or two, but that want the experience and competition.
Those players were essentially already subsidizing the tourneys, just like ptq losers in paper magic, or all the folks going broke at casino and poker tables.
But now, these folk are being asked to blow twice as much for the same potential prize.
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« Reply #49 on: July 23, 2015, 11:42:15 am »

There's a few points on the changes that I haven't really seen discussed, so I figured I air them here.

First off, the way the release reads, daily events will now fire on 8 participants instead of 16. Everything aside, this is very welcome and should make events fire more regularly assuming there isn't a loss greater than 50% to the player base.

Second, the prize structure seems to subsidize entry to frequently cashing players at double the expense to the average joe. This seems bad as the only persons incentivized to play more frequently are those who feel they can perform well consistently. If the prizes are shite regardless, you'll be left with only the top players who didn't see fit to sell out, and those who are playing for love of playing regardless of value. I'd wager the gap between player skill level will widen significantly for constructed events on mtgo.

Third, fixing price packs relative to the ticket is irrelevant if it devalues the ticket. The proposed system doesn't correct the value of packs AND tickets as they are compared to the dollar (or local currency). Logic suggests that if packs that had a value of 2 tickets to players are suddenly pushed to 4 tickets, then the value of the ticket will roughly half.

At the end of the day if they changes get implemented as is, the biggest shame is the likely loss of some of the digital worlds best players, while forcing people in the middle of the pack to pay more for a less competitive experience.

The things that have kept me playing mtgo have been a strong field of players, and reasonable rules enforcement, bugs aside. I still plan to play for a love of the game and the availability mtgo affords the format. The only thing to be done is to state my thoughts, and try to leverage a bad situation by rounding out my collection while prices are suffering.

It's a gamble, but I have high faith that vintage players are some of the most passionate around. The loss to player base hopefully will be mitigated by those that might be able to buy in at cheaper prices. I'd take the opportunity to explain the situation to paper players. If they aren't comfortable assuming the risk, that's fully reasonable. However, its seems foolish to not at least try making the best of the few tangible benefits of this announcement.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2015, 11:47:15 am by Corvel » Logged
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« Reply #50 on: July 23, 2015, 11:47:36 am »

I think this is the killing blow. The situation as it was before this change made me already to almost stop playing in daily events, because I just could not cash out frequently enough for it not to hurt. I'd have to play the top 1-2 decks around to make for less skill/experience I have, but thats what I don't want to do. I like to experiment and make my own decks. Add to that the horrible programm mtgo is right now and you can see they are asking too much this time.
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« Reply #51 on: July 23, 2015, 11:48:44 am »

A lot of casuals simply won't care, nor will the people who are more interested in having fun and playing Magic than in +EV. I imagine for a lot of people it's going to just be business as usual, and that there are enough of those people that Wizards couldn't care less about the folks at the higher end of the food chain.

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« Reply #52 on: July 23, 2015, 01:33:01 pm »

I'm on my phone, on a break from work, so I don't want to quote an entire post (it's too much of a pain to select a few sentences).

To answer Corvel's post: The 8 player Daily Event was a typo. That's been confirmed. It's been hard to get 6 dollar DE's to fire at times, how many 12$ DE's will fire with several regulars quitting already?

We all need to email wotc and state our case. I don't want to sell out, but I'd like to rally people for a no log in protest, that's the only thing I can think of besides email and collection selling tjat sends wotc a message.
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« Reply #53 on: July 23, 2015, 03:37:46 pm »

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The 8 player Daily Event was a typo.

Wow, so the only positive thing in that whole post turned out to be a "thing that they said but did not mean"? Great.
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« Reply #54 on: July 23, 2015, 03:58:52 pm »

I cashed out earlier as well. Cardhoarder was offering 2% less than they originally would due to the spike of people selling out their collection.

I haven't had a lot of time to play lately and mainly use MTGO to test out my paper decks. My LGS have been hosting monthly vintage events, which is the frequency I'm able to join the dailies anyway.The client have been abysmal to me lately and it doesn't make much sense for me to try and put up with it. I also, don't want to lose anymore money due to the potential of prices plummeting, us early vintage adopters already lost a couple of hundreds due the P9 and fetches price drops.

Hoping that the MTGO play points would somehow be the online currency for MTGO in the future and that it would replace event tickets all together. Also hoping that they would create some sort of online market place for people to buy and sell their cards. There is no reason for us to depend on MTGO bots to handle the secondary market. I would be happy to reinvest my money, if and when, they all sort this out.
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« Reply #55 on: July 23, 2015, 04:03:08 pm »

Quote
The 8 player Daily Event was a typo.

Wow, so the only positive thing in that whole post turned out to be a "thing that they said but did not mean"? Great.

I'm pretty sure the MTGO management is so inept that the only way they can make a good decision is unintentionally. Like the Introductory Physics student that uses the wrong equation, plugs in the wrong values, and miraculously gets the right answer. Except in this case, they then crossed out that answer, took a dump on test, and then handed it to the poor TA in charge of grading.
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« Reply #56 on: July 23, 2015, 04:56:50 pm »

Quote
The 8 player Daily Event was a typo.

Wow, so the only positive thing in that whole post turned out to be a "thing that they said but did not mean"? Great.

I'm pretty sure the MTGO management is so inept that the only way they can make a good decision is unintentionally. Like the Introductory Physics student that uses the wrong equation, plugs in the wrong values, and miraculously gets the right answer. Except in this case, they then crossed out that answer, took a dump on test, and then handed it to the poor TA in charge of grading.

Well they aren't completely inept.  They at least have decent PR skills to be able to write an article spinning these changes as positives for the players.
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« Reply #57 on: July 23, 2015, 05:54:04 pm »


Well they aren't completely inept.  They at least have decent PR skills to be able to write an article spinning these changes as positives for the players.
If they had done that competently we wouldn't all immediately have seen through it as total crap.
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« Reply #58 on: July 24, 2015, 11:00:14 am »

It's official, just cashed out to CardHoarders. Was easy to do and they offered the best price. Would deal with them again (if I ever bought back in and then cashed out...).


I second CardHoarder. They offered more and getting out of bad Shanadalar was a 5 minute process. Looking forward to blowing the proceeds at Gencon Smile
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« Reply #59 on: July 24, 2015, 11:43:56 am »

Welp, I better scramble to find some bots to buy buy my massive MODO collection and liquidate some value before it all goes south!

Oh wait, I never wasted a single cent on MODO, even when people were imploring me to buy in when Vintage was released on the platform. "Black Lotuses and Moxen are the lowest they'll ever be! Get them now while you still can!" they told me.  Very Happy
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