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Author Topic: MTGO Play Points & changes to Dailies  (Read 19541 times)
yugular
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« Reply #60 on: July 24, 2015, 11:52:42 am »

mtgotraders just tweeted that mtgo sellout is now past us and people are actually buying cards again (well ORI was also released today).

I cashed out earlier as well. Cardhoarder was offering 2% less than they originally would due to the spike of people selling out their collection.

I literally also sold all my bulk (non eternal playables) around 15K cards last week. Luckily so, now those cards would have earned me maybe 10% less. Which actually leads to that I might need to invest some singles while prices are now at low point.

I haven't had a lot of time to play lately and mainly use MTGO to test out my paper decks. My LGS have been hosting monthly vintage events, which is the frequency I'm able to join the dailies anyway.The client have been abysmal to me lately and it doesn't make much sense for me to try and put up with it. I also, don't want to lose anymore money due to the potential of prices plummeting, us early vintage adopters already lost a couple of hundreds due the P9 and fetches price drops.

I have been happy with the client and the ability to play Vintage, Legacy and Pauper. I don't have LGS though, I am not sure if I would prefer paper mtg if I had...

Hoping that the MTGO play points would somehow be the online currency for MTGO in the future and that it would replace event tickets all together. Also hoping that they would create some sort of online market place for people to buy and sell their cards. There is no reason for us to depend on MTGO bots to handle the secondary market. I would be happy to reinvest my money, if and when, they all sort this out.

Bots are very efficient. Whats the problem there?
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Chubby Rain
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« Reply #61 on: July 24, 2015, 12:17:23 pm »

Welp, I better scramble to find some bots to buy buy my massive MODO collection and liquidate some value before it all goes south!

Oh wait, I never wasted a single cent on MODO, even when people were imploring me to buy in when Vintage was released on the platform. "Black Lotuses and Moxen are the lowest they'll ever be! Get them now while you still can!" they told me.  Very Happy

I cashed out for more than I put in Very Happy
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« Reply #62 on: July 24, 2015, 12:39:15 pm »

Another great synopsis of 'Play Points'. Definitely worth the read.

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/fun-money-on-magic-online
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Chubby Rain
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« Reply #63 on: July 24, 2015, 01:03:32 pm »

Another great synopsis of 'Play Points'. Definitely worth the read.

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/fun-money-on-magic-online


They don't really do a format-by-format analysis though. I feel like devaluing the DE's is a particularly big deal for Vintage players as we were struggling to hit the minimum for the events and we do not have the alternative of 8-mans. We are also disproportionately affected by depreciation in card prices as our investment is higher than other formats. The weekly loser list suggests that many of the people selling off were Vintage players, with Power taking a significant dip.
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« Reply #64 on: July 24, 2015, 01:08:32 pm »

They revised it... now daily events for vintage (and legacy and pauper) have a minimum of 8 players, 6 ticket entry, and 3 rounds.

(The changes are in the original article)
http://magic.wizards.com/en/MTGO/articles/archive/magic-online/august-2015-constructed-event-changes-2015-07-20
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Chubby Rain
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« Reply #65 on: July 24, 2015, 01:24:46 pm »

They revised it... now daily events for vintage (and legacy and pauper) have a minimum of 8 players, 6 ticket entry, and 3 rounds.

(The changes are in the original article)
http://magic.wizards.com/en/MTGO/articles/archive/magic-online/august-2015-constructed-event-changes-2015-07-20

So they "revised" it to give out worse prize support than their 8-man events in formats that are a fraction of the cost? I'm done...
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Montolio
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« Reply #66 on: July 24, 2015, 01:28:55 pm »

This is good news in that we should be able to fire every DE with an 8 player minimum.
This is a major downgrade though as we can't play 4 rounds of Vintage.
I understand that with less then 16 people in an event that the logistics get all weird with 4 rounds and that 3 rounds is better suited.
However we didn't ask for less rounds of magic in a DE for the ability to fire more easily.
My feeling is we fire most Vintage DE's and the one's that don't fire are at a minimum.
I still think the prizes are poor substitute and like the old way of prize payout better than play points.
This all just feels bad and this is a further kick in the pants.
Foils also look like dog shit. I have been asking for a change for over a year now. I get one finally and they are just so much worse.
What is going on here WOTC?

« Last Edit: July 24, 2015, 02:07:38 pm by Montolio » Logged

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« Reply #67 on: July 24, 2015, 01:30:49 pm »

And yet, they make things EVEN WORSE. These guys are complete buffoons. Who wants to pay for a Vintage deck and win 3 packs once a day, at best, if you actually manage to go 3-0. That there is no prize whatsoever for 2 wins is a complete joke. A new job, a divorce, and a move to another state have stopped me from playing MTGO temporarily. These changes will stop me from playing MTGO permanently. Well done Worth, et. al.
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saspook
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« Reply #68 on: July 24, 2015, 01:54:44 pm »

They revised it... now daily events for vintage (and legacy and pauper) have a minimum of 8 players, 6 ticket entry, and 3 rounds.

(The changes are in the original article)
http://magic.wizards.com/en/MTGO/articles/archive/magic-online/august-2015-constructed-event-changes-2015-07-20

So they "revised" it to give out worse prize support than their 8-man events in formats that are a fraction of the cost? I'm done...

The only difference in payouts is 1 QP. And the cost is the same.
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The Wolf
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« Reply #69 on: July 24, 2015, 02:14:54 pm »


This is good news in that we should be able to fire every DE with an 8 player minimum.
This is a major downgrade though as we can't play 4 rounds of Vintage.
I still think the prizes are poor substitute.
These guys just have no idea what they are doing. Flying by the seat of their pants and instituting things without thinking them through thoroughly.
I am glad they took action right away on this, but this is your answer?


I'm actually far more likely to pay attention to launch times and play in a 3 round event.  4 rounds with a lot of them going to 50 min was just too much time for me. Also, the changes to the 2 player ques should make them a lot more appealing.  There was a while cause of pack prices that winning didn't even get your your entry free back.  I do wish the payout was 35-0 instead of 30-5, but its a pretty minimal difference.  
I'm quite happy with these changes.

The daily events were totally lopsided with the rest of MTGOs payouts and I never understood why they ran them in the first place.  A lot of people were just playing dailies and nothing else, which is pretty bad for the MTGO economy and for wizards trying to make money on their product.  Really the events were just subsidizing a section of the player base to get to play for free while limited players payed for it.
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« Reply #70 on: July 24, 2015, 02:15:48 pm »

The only difference in payouts is 1 QP. And the cost is the same.

Which IS worse, not to mention a 66% MWP means you get to keeping playing with your $1,000 deck for "free"...
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Smmenen
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« Reply #71 on: July 24, 2015, 08:20:32 pm »

Can someone please explain, in simple terms, the rationale behind this change?  What is the upside?

Not sure if you were truly looking for an answer on this but I will attempt to field it. Wizards saw that the economy and current state of affairs of the MTGO economy was completely broken. This was most evident in the disparity between the MSRP of booster packs and their secondary market value. For most events offered the MSRP of prize support packs was roughly the value of the entry fees. While this is perfectly reasonable approach to prize support, the problem was the devalued secondary value of booster packs served as a disincentive to play in events and likely resulted in reduced revenue to Wizards as everyone knew not to purchase boosters at MSRP from the store.

In order to address the issue of devalued prize support Wizards wanted to create a system of prize support which essentially put a floor of the value of the prize support. This is how the play points nonsense was developed. The play points should address secondary market issues through both reducing supply and creating a fixed value (i.e. ability to play in future events). The glaring problem with this solution is that as play points are untradeable they have no secondary value and therefore are no longer a store of value for a large portion of the community. I earlier expressed that this didn't bother me as I primarily used event tickets to enter events anyway, but I realized I was missing the point, tickets are the de facto currency on MTGO and have a value as determined by the market. Any event that pays out in play points essentially removes value from the MTGO economy.

As mentioned the rationale was to create a method of prize support that creates a floor in value. It has been asked if the goal is to create a floor in prize support why not just offer Event tickets as prize support. I think the most likely reason that Event tickets as prize support is not possible is that it would run directly afoul of gambling laws in most jurisdictions. Although I am not an expert in that area it seems pooling a form of currency and dispersing based on a game of luck (and skill) would generally meet the definition of gambling. By creating a non-currency as a form of prize support Wizards likely avoids running afoul of these laws. So the upside is a prize support with a fixed value. The downside is a prize support that each recipient has to value individually and only being satisfied if entering events is sufficient compensation.

None of this justifies the abysmal rate at which they assigned prize support to the various tournament structures especially the daily events which have historically been MTGO's flagship events.

I appreciate the explanation - as I genuinely want to understand the rationale - but I still don't feel like I have a strong grasp on the reasoning behind these changes.  And this certainly isn't the "simple" explanation I requested. 

It's easy (and perhaps fair) to assume that any change is designed to maximize revenue or capture value by the company, but I'm open to trying to better understand their rationale. 






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The Wolf
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« Reply #72 on: July 24, 2015, 10:00:58 pm »

Simple version:
1) Packs were being given out at a fast rate than they were being drafted so they were being very devalued.
2) You can't give tickets as prizes cause of gambling issues.
3) They made a new ticket type to get around this issue.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like the people most upset by the daily changes are the ones who played them and pretty much nothing else. AKA people who want to play for free or actually view MTGO as a way to make money.
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Smmenen
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« Reply #73 on: July 24, 2015, 10:12:34 pm »

Simple version:
1) Packs were being given out at a fast rate than they were being drafted so they were being very devalued.
2) You can't give tickets as prizes cause of gambling issues.
3) They made a new ticket type to get around this issue.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like the people most upset by the daily changes are the ones who played them and pretty much nothing else. AKA people who want to play for free or actually view MTGO as a way to make money.

Not saying that isn't the rationale, but 1) why is the value of packs suddenly a problem now?  What triggered this problem or changed recently to prompt a policy response?  And 2) then how do Grand Prix, SCG Opens, and other major tournaments give away cash prizes? 
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« Reply #74 on: July 24, 2015, 11:12:24 pm »

Simple version:
1) Packs were being given out at a fast rate than they were being drafted so they were being very devalued.
2) You can't give tickets as prizes cause of gambling issues.
3) They made a new ticket type to get around this issue.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like the people most upset by the daily changes are the ones who played them and pretty much nothing else. AKA people who want to play for free or actually view MTGO as a way to make money.

Not saying that isn't the rationale, but 1) why is the value of packs suddenly a problem now?  What triggered this problem or changed recently to prompt a policy response?  And 2) then how do Grand Prix, SCG Opens, and other major tournaments give away cash prizes? 

1. It's actually been a problem since around the time of Gatecrash, but I do think its gotten slightly worse recently. When the redemption fee was increased from $5 to $25 there was a larger decoupling of prices from MTGO and paper magic.
2. (Disclaimer - Not an attorney and may be completely incorrect) - Jurisdictional differences. I believe the Federal Government limits internet gambling in the U.S. whereas, for live tournaments its a state issue. Some states allow betting on games of skill while others do not. I wonder if we listed out where Grand Prix have been held if we could figure that out, or prove me completely wrong?

Interestingly those tournaments generally have terrible EV and no one complains about that.

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« Reply #75 on: July 25, 2015, 10:14:34 am »

I ran the daily numbers in a model that was useful for me, so I thought I'd share. Personally I really only care about breaking even/going infinite with dailies.

Old system:
6tix entry
4-0 11 boosters
3-1 6 boosters

New 3 round system:
60 points/6tix entry
3-0 3 boosters, 80 play points
2-1 60 play points
1-2 20 play points

Let W be your chance of winning a round of vintage. Obviously your opponent's expected skill changes based on your record, but let's roll with W being constant. Let B be the price in tix of a booster. To go infinite we want the EV to be 0. As far as "going infinite" is concerned, it's valid to use a 1 tix:10 points conversion since we can enter a daily with this ratio. Therefore my unit with be "tix".

Old daily (in tix):
W^4(11B)+4W^3(1-W)6B-6=0
W^4*11+4W^3(1-W)6=6/B
W^3(24-13W)=6/B

New system 3 round daily (in "tix"):
W^3(3B+8)+3W^2(1-W)6+3W(1-W)^2*2-6=0
W^3(3B+8)+3W^2(1-W)6+3W(1-W)^2*2=6

These equations are too obnoxious for me to deal with in the (B,W) plane, so let's just plug in reasonable value(s) of B. Right now the weighted average of booster payouts is B=2.2. Under the old system we need W=.54 and in the new we need W=.58. Since the old system is weighted more towards boosters, the higher B gets the greater the disparity. Note that the new system is designed to increase B: it lowers the supply of boosters.

I understand some people want to grow your collection slowly and this doesn't model that at all. Honestly, I think the "hourly wage" for grinding vintage dailies is so low that it's silly to think in these terms and it's more of a philosophical argument than a practical one.

Anyway, my 2 cents. Hopefully I didn't mess up the math. My personal assessment is that unless the dailies stop firing the biggest change is 4 rounds to 3 rounds, which works out more nicely for my schedule.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2015, 10:35:48 am by diophan » Logged
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« Reply #76 on: July 25, 2015, 10:32:19 am »

Simple version:
1) Packs were being given out at a fast rate than they were being drafted so they were being very devalued.
2) You can't give tickets as prizes cause of gambling issues.
3) They made a new ticket type to get around this issue.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like the people most upset by the daily changes are the ones who played them and pretty much nothing else. AKA people who want to play for free or actually view MTGO as a way to make money.

Not saying that isn't the rationale, but 1) why is the value of packs suddenly a problem now?  What triggered this problem or changed recently to prompt a policy response?  And 2) then how do Grand Prix, SCG Opens, and other major tournaments give away cash prizes? 

I'm kind of curious about the legality of issue #2 as well. What are the legal ramifications of offering cash prizes at large-scale Magic tournaments? Someone once told me that under certain laws governing gambling that these types of tournaments are considered "amusements" and are thus not subject to illegal gambling statutes, but I'm not a lawyer and I certainly would appreciate if one could chime in and shed some light on this!
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« Reply #77 on: July 25, 2015, 01:53:44 pm »

I sold everything.

I have been unhappy with the last 30 months of mtgo management. They are going to create more untrade-able objects in the future. I wanted to sell my collection while it's still worth something. And I had little interest in the constructed meta games. Those reasons made me quit.


I got a lot more selling my cards individually than what the bot chains were offering. I got about 1,000 more tickets selling the cards to bots than selling the entire collection to a bot chain. I made about ~$100/hour painstakingly selling cards 1 by 1 cross referencing buylist prices.
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« Reply #78 on: July 25, 2015, 02:11:24 pm »

To be fair, I have no proof that the gambling thing is actually a threat.  Its just something I've read so many times I believe it now.
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« Reply #79 on: July 25, 2015, 02:32:49 pm »

Is cardhoarder still the best dealer to sell your cards too? any bot in particular?
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yugular
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« Reply #80 on: July 25, 2015, 03:13:18 pm »

Thiim quite many botchains buy whole collections. You just need to make a csv out of your collection and send it to them. See their websites for instructions. I got best price from dojo recently for my bulk
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« Reply #81 on: July 25, 2015, 04:38:12 pm »

Is cardhoarder still the best dealer to sell your cards too? any bot in particular?
You can get a quote from all of them.

I got quotes Thursday night

Cardhoarder's quote is automated on their website.
Dojotrade e-mailed me a quote in a couple of minutes.
Mtgotraders e-mailed me a quote 20 hours later.

I would look to sell your cards individually. You are taking a huge pay cut if you sell your collection as a whole. The chains offered me 1000-1500 less than what I was able to get selling cards individually.  For reference I came out with 6423 tickets from selling cards individually.

I would at least consider making everything for trade and mass selling cards to bot chains that way.

You're taking a huge pay cut for convenience if you sell your collection as a whole.
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« Reply #82 on: July 25, 2015, 06:10:35 pm »

Come on there are several serious issues with pack prizes that are resolved by this change.  After some serious looking at the issue I've pretty much concluded that for certain things Play points are MUCH better and for other things they are worse.  So basically what WotC needed to do was apply play points to some formats that needed them, namely drafts.  And keep prize pack payouts for other formats.

It's been a huge problem for a long time at the end of the cycle of a set that it was a giant disincentive to play.  There were always large drags on play time where there was no point in playing any format because you were about to get packs you could never use to play again.  What is the point of topping an event only to get 30 or 60 packs of some block that rotated out in 2 weeks?  Also there was no way to switch easily between draft formats.  You couldn't play block and then try out some core set because they were pack specific.

Why change now, is obvious.  With the elimination of the core sets and faster block rotation, hence more end of cycle no-play zones, they needed to do something to resolve that.  Simply put the faster block schedule was about to make it so every couple months people would dramatically slow their drafting for a couple weeks.  Now with play points they can draft up to the end of cycle and be earning rewards on Sunday night, that Monday morning work in the latest and greatest format.  No dead prizes at the end of cycles, no variation between winning prizes the first week of a set vs the last week of a set.

So that goes back to my first point, I think of player points as basically "any pack you need" for limited games and a relatively 'good thing'  But for something like constructed, and specifically constructed vintage its crap.  I don't see why they didn't just do player points for limited events and stick with product for constructed?  1 size does not fit all.
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« Reply #83 on: July 25, 2015, 11:08:41 pm »

I've started to come around on the idea of play points having *some* worth, instead of the completely useless objects that I initially considered them to be. I still hate the idea that these things have zero value outside of playing in another event or drafting. Since I never draft, the value of these points is lower for me than most others.

However, the biggest issue I have is how they nerfed the Vintage/Legacy DE's. What exactly is the point of playing a 3 round event where the only way you gain anything is by going 3-0? Get mana screwed one game and play against a god-hand in another game in round 1? Tough luck for you buddy... if you play really well, you'll get a pat on the back. Lose again and you get a kick in the nuts. 3 rounds of Swiss in a high variance format like Vintage/Legacy is really pointless. I've argued with WotC for making LARGER Vintage events, which was part of the impetus of the Winter Celebration. By and large, the Winter Celebration was a resounding success, so instead of capitalizing on that and expanding Vintage events, they make them smaller than every other format? C'mon, how dumb can these people really be?
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« Reply #84 on: July 26, 2015, 08:05:43 am »

Well I'm glad WOTC reacted to feedback about the eternal DE's but it does not sound like they listened to it.  At first glance the payouts on the 8 man eternal DE's looked awful compared with the 8 man queues.   Then I remembered that one is SE and the other swiss with maybe more players.  If the DE fires with the minimum 8 though I for one will feel slightly hard done by that there is no booster and no QP for going 2-1.
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« Reply #85 on: July 26, 2015, 10:59:05 am »

The new Vintage/Legacy dailies are an insult. They're already second-class dailies, but for most players the prize payout is also worse than an 8-man for Standard or Modern.  In order to get anything of any real value you have to go 3-0.  And of course there's the fact that if you're lucky and can play in both dailies, you get to play no more than 6 rounds of tournament Vintage/Legacy.  It's the only option available other than casual play or a 2-man.
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« Reply #86 on: July 27, 2015, 03:30:51 am »

The new Vintage/Legacy dailies are an insult. They're already second-class dailies, but for most players the prize payout is also worse than an 8-man for Standard or Modern.

Agreed - this really relegates them to almost pointless. Sure, three rounds is quick and fun, but this really makes Legacy and Vintage feel like little more than casual formats. It's a bloody hopeless change - and unless they run big blue-riband events more regularly or introduce leagues quickly, this is really a slap round the face for everyone who has bought into the format, taken it seriously and who treated the DEs as the best, regular Vintage competition they could get to play in.
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« Reply #87 on: July 27, 2015, 10:45:52 am »

Blow up the economy, butcher Vintage Dailies and now stop supporting VSL?  The hits just keep on coming.
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« Reply #88 on: July 27, 2015, 11:24:34 am »

Blow up the economy, butcher Vintage Dailies and now stop supporting VSL?  The hits just keep on coming.

Season 1 wasn't supported by WotC, I don't see what support is needed.  But I don't see why they wouldn't support it (unless they are 'making' their own standard and modern).
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« Reply #89 on: July 27, 2015, 03:54:33 pm »

Blow up the economy, butcher Vintage Dailies and now stop supporting VSL?  The hits just keep on coming.

Season 1 wasn't supported by WotC, I don't see what support is needed.  But I don't see why they wouldn't support it (unless they are 'making' their own standard and modern).
It was indeed supported (in a very miniscule way), in that Randy convinced WotC to provide a set of Foil Power 9 on MTGO to the winner each season. Randy and Shotgun Lotus have basically done everything else themselves the rest of the time.
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