White Trash - Post Origins

[Bluediamonds]

With the introduction of Wingmare to top off the curve, is it possible for a re-evaluation of this deck's viability

edit : Wingmare was underwhelming in testing at this time

Main


2 Stony Silence
3 Swords to Plowshares

2 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Leonin Arbiter
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Containment Priest
3 Spirit of the Labyrinth

4 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Grand Abolisher
1 Mental Misstep

4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
9 Plains
1 Strip Mine
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Karakas
1 Mox Pearl
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Mother of Runes
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Grand Abolisher
1 Swords to Plowshares
3 Mental Misstep
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Magus of the Tabernacle
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Stony Silence

List slightly edited for 4 Stoneforge engine and sideboard


Turn by turn pro-active interaction lines

Pro Active Openings
Thalia - Prevents busted openings and sets you up for the next piece
Leonin Arbiter - Fetchland tie-up, the main distinction between the White vs the WG,WR versions
Spirit of the Labyrinth - Stops preordain openings ( Most common blue opening ) from being good
Stoneforge - Will likely draw out a Force of Will
Stony Silence - Disable all artifacts
Containment Priest - only good against dredge as an opening
Ethersworn Canonist - Prevents busted openings
Grand Abolisher - with Cavern effectively disables FOW and Gush in your turn against wasteland activation

Reactive openings
Relic-warder, Revoker - Disabling first Mox
Swords to plowshares - First creature
Mental Misstep - Usually first spell
Wasteland

[ajfirecracker]

Just want to make sure you're aware Glowrider exists

[Bluediamonds]

Yes but Vryn is an improvement apart from creature type and wont be maxxed out as it is 3cc unless we head towards an ancient tomb mana base

[ajfirecracker]

What do you think of going closer to Shops, running a bit more artifact acceleration to try and set up the lock a little faster?

[nedleeds]

Just want to make sure you're aware Glowrider exists

and is Human ...

edit: and has a job of Cleric

[MrGlantz]

White Trash did not need more powerful 3 drop hatebears (of which Vryn is still suspect compared to other options) to become more powerful. It needs another solid 1 drop to back up Dryad Militant.

[serracollector]

Is the new Gideon from origins an option? Should be easy enough to flip.

[Bluediamonds]

Did I miss any possible turn one interactions

Proactive interaction
Mental misstep
Chalice of the void
Mox,lotus,petal etc into a 2 drop
dryad militant
Judge's familiar
Other 1cc creature
Mother of Runes
Gideon?

Reactive interaction
Swords to plowshares

[nedleeds]

I think new Gideon is pretty bad. I mean if he was just Indestructible he probably wouldn't get played.

I would play Icatian Javelineers over him and they aren't very good.

[vaughnbros]

There are still two problems with this deck that have existed since its conception.  It has almost no 1 drops and it has no top end of the curve.  The original build ran 4 chalice and full power to make up for the lack of a 1 drop, but staying in mono white there is still no top end finisher/draw engine.   Adding red becomes one solution to this problem giving you access to Prophetic Flamespeaker a card that is both a draw engine (through david Bowie) and a finisher (when equipped).  This addition on has been shown to be effective in Josh Potuceks simians mom builds.

[Bluediamonds]

So far the closest in white to a finisher draw engine is Stoneforge Mystic

I will test some on mtgo by moving to an ancient tomb mix and using jittes and swords

[rikter]

I just played against a monowhite bears last Saturday at Comic Book Depot.

That deck had Aether Vial and Student of Warfare, both of which can be fairly obnoxious vs Shops, which is what I was on. He also had Dryad militant. Most of the rest was the standard other stuff you see in these types of lists. Power was the lotus and pearl.

I ended up losing both matches to this deck, though I got hit pretty hard having to mull to 4 and 5 a couple of times.

It seems like a reasonable list for a smaller event at least.

[ajfirecracker]

One possible reaction to "No Good 1-Drops" is to go all on on 2-drops, ie Maximum Moxes (and many Shops builds historically ran  Chalice, Null Rod alongside lots of Moxes, with the expectation that a blue card-drawing deck would usually be hurt more by those cards)

[xouman]

I think the best argument for playing White trash is not having access to power, so moxen can be replaced by spirit guides. But let's try to do a step behind and think: what's the best effect that you can play on T1?

On the play:
Chalice > leonin arbiter > thalia (or another sphere) > stony silence > spirit of the labyrinth > judge's familiar > eidolon > dryad militant > javalineers

On the draw:
strip mine > wasteland > misstep > revoker > Leonin Relic Warder Leonin Relic Warder > thalia (or another sphere) > stony silence >  Kataki War's Wage > leonin arbiter > spirit > chalice


Something else relevant and really welcome asap? Most of those cards have a cost of 2, with at least one colorless mana. So yes, it could be worth to play some spirit guides. And dropping CC1 cards could mean better chalices.



I'm not sold with this archetype nowadays since delver/mentor seem awful pairings, but maybe with 4 sfm (in the side maybe?) and some anti-tokens tech, they could be improved...

[Bluediamonds]

Been experimenting but its becoming more viable now with the meta shifting towards the 'fair decks'

With some builds White thrash can have good matchups against Stax and dredge both md and sb

with Swords / SFM Batter/Sword/Jitte, it can hold its own against the 'fair decks'.

It holds okay against the blue decks but so far it seems draw dependent.

[RecklessEmbermage]

Hi guys,

I´ve been trying to figure out how to build a hatebear deck with as good matchups against storm and shops as possible, working under the assumption that those are the two dominating decks in the metagame and that they will become gradually stronger until something happens to significantly weaken storm. The first thing I did was to set up four lists; cards that are good against storm, cards that are good against shops, cards that are good against both and otherwise playable cards that aren´t good against neither. Of course these lists are incomplete. I would appreciate feedback to flesh them out:

Storm:
Thalia
Ethersworn Canonist and to a lesser extent Eidolon of Rhetoric (too hard to play on turn one)
Aegis of the Gods
Leonin Arbiter and Aven Mindcensor
Rest in Peace
Spirit of the Labyrinth (which has application against shops, due to its 3 point of power)
Mental misstep
Chalice of the void
Glowrider and Vryn Wingmare
Dryad militant
Gaddock Teeg

Shops:
Kataki (which is too easy for storm to play around, unless also pressured by a sphere effect)
Knight of the Reliquary (arguably too expensive, but very good once in play)
Mayor of Avabruck
Ghost quarter
Magus of the moon
Swords to plowshares
Stoneforge Mystic and assorted equipment
Dark confidant
Gaea´s Cradle
Basic lands

Storm and shops:
Stony Silence (which is only good against ravager versions of shops)
Wasteland/Strip
Deathrite shaman
Phyrexian revoker (not an all-star, but having decent application against both)
Leonin relic-warder
Qasali Pridemage (arguably weak against both decks, but not unplayable)
Pithing needle (Weak, since it doesn´t present a clock while the effect isn´t fully worth a card)

Neither storm nor shops:
Containment priest (weakens forgemaster, which is not good enough imo)
Grand abolisher
Karakas
Maze of ith
Tabernacle at pendrell vale (which has corner-case application against both decks)
Cavern of souls (Becomes better if TPS becomes a thing)
Mother of runes (at an all time low at the moment)
Grafdigger´s cage (stops will, but is so much weaker than rest in peace against storm that I believe it belongs here)
Abrupt decay (Which is weaker against shops than the artifact-removing creatures and has only marginal applications against storm)

One of the key takeaways here was that ghost quarter is quite interesting, since it is already turned on against shops and the creatures that naturally back it up are good against storm. This leads me to believe that a hatebears deck designed to beat both decks should accomodate for ghost quarter. That again points toward a design with light mana requirements; White Trash as opposed to a multicoloured human-based deck. The fact that Cavern of souls isn´t as good as it was before chalice was restricted enforces this idea. So the decklist I´m currently one isn´t innovative in any way, but I think it might have merit for being relatively clean. Note that it has a green splash mostly because elvish spirit guide is a good accelerator in a deck that aims to play stony silence as early as possible. This could easily become a red splash:

4 Artifacts:
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Chalice of the void (It still hurts my feelings that they had to take these away from us)

28 Creatures:
4 Aven Mindcensor
4 Elvish spirit guide
2 Kataki, War´s Wage
2 Knight of the Reliquary (I´m a sucker for this card, alright. Maybe it is flat out a mistake to have it in here, but it provides so much resiliency in slower match-ups.)
2 Leonin Arbiter (In your experience, how many creatures are needed to support ghost quarter?)
4 Leonin Relic-warder
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Vryn Wingmare (I really don´t like this card, but it has broad application and flying is a thing)

5 Enchantments:
1 Rest in Peace (clearly a hedge)
4 Stony Silence

2 Instants:
2 Swords to Plowshares (Another hedge. Stp is probably at it´s worst in 4 years or so.)

21 Lands:
2 Cavern of Souls (The deck has 12 white sources and 11 green sources, not counting cavern. I think that is as low as I´m willing to go, so not room for more caverns. Still a good card against blue decks.)
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Karakas (Still almost free to play. It is a liability against shops, but provides some cool interactions with all the little legends.)
3 Plains
4 Savannah
1 Strip Mine
1 Windswept heath (Could cut this and a cavern for a plains and a horizon canopy and still feel fine with my coloured mana.)


Sideboard:
4 containment priest (Which brings the hate for oath up to a fine level.)
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Kataki, War´s Wage
1 Knight of The Reliquary (Shops, landstill, non-blue creature decks)
2 Choke (Together with Teeg, this gives the deck a shot against mentor, even though the match-up is probably still weak)
3 Rest in peace (Which brings the hate for dredge up to a fine level.)
1 Maze of Ith (Drawn-out creature match-ups)
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale (Dredge and gush decks. May be a main-deck consideration over Stp.)

Any sort of feed-back is very welcome. I test very little and haven´t played this against hangarback aggro or dark petition storm. If you have tried something similar: Can this work, or is it futile to try?

[xouman]

My initial thoughts:

-4 mindcensors is too much. I'd play 0-2. while is great against dark petition, is not that good, and 3 mana in this deck often hurts.
-revoker is a must imho. mana denial, stops planeswalkers and prevents other annoying situations.
-chalice is only good if you plan to play it to something over 0. You will have it in your starting hand less that 12% of the time, and you will be on the play about 50% of your matches. Not really solid cutting moxen.
-i'd include canonists in your main deck. not only against storm, they are also good against blue decks. against mud add poor, but not dead.
-how about an answer against token strategies? while stoneforge+batterskull is technically not an answer to them, lifelink helps surviving long enough. engineered explosives to 0 is also a decent answer, but it conflicts with null rods so maybe just for the sb. Jitte is great but also is a nonbo with stony silence/rod. Ghostly Prison prevents you to be attacked from a swarm, but does not help in the long run.
-If you are going WG route, I have seen some players having Noble hierarch or even Avacyn's Pilgrim.
-What about mental misstep? While it's not great with thalia or similar, is still playable and saves your creatures from removal.
-Dryad Militant, while not being an all star, is good if you plan to face some dredge decks. Also helps against will, snapcaster, gifts, therapy... and slows dtt/cruise

[RecklessEmbermage]

My initial thoughts:

-4 mindcensors is too much. I'd play 0-2. while is great against dark petition, is not that good, and 3 mana in this deck often hurts.
-revoker is a must imho. mana denial, stops planeswalkers and prevents other annoying situations.
-chalice is only good if you plan to play it to something over 0. You will have it in your starting hand less that 12% of the time, and you will be on the play about 50% of your matches. Not really solid cutting moxen.
-i'd include canonists in your main deck. not only against storm, they are also good against blue decks. against mud add poor, but not dead.
-how about an answer against token strategies? while stoneforge+batterskull is technically not an answer to them, lifelink helps surviving long enough. engineered explosives to 0 is also a decent answer, but it conflicts with null rods so maybe just for the sb. Jitte is great but also is a nonbo with stony silence/rod. Ghostly Prison prevents you to be attacked from a swarm, but does not help in the long run.
-If you are going WG route, I have seen some players having Noble hierarch or even Avacyn's Pilgrim.
-What about mental misstep? While it's not great with thalia or similar, is still playable and saves your creatures from removal.
-Dryad Militant, while not being an all star, is good if you plan to face some dredge decks. Also helps against will, snapcaster, gifts, therapy... and slows dtt/cruise

Thanks for the feedback Xouman,

The revokers are there. I´ve usually played less tahn four in these kinds of decks, but if the assumption is that the metagame is stretched out between storm and shops, revoker is one of the few cards that are good against both, even though the power-level of the card is not astronomical.
You might be right about mindcensor. I think it is better than arbiter (non-symmetrical for one, but both flying and flash are relevant abilities). Am I wrong? Is arbiter the better choice because of manacost? And more importantly: How many should I run of these creatures total? If I didn´t play ghost quarter, there would probably 0 in the maindeck as opposed to 6.
Chalice 1 is such a powerful play against so many decks that I believe that alone more than justifies running the allowed copy. Chalice isn´t the reason for cutting moxen; Stony silence and the ease of splashing a colour with the spirit guides are.
Stoneforge and equipment are good against important decks, but they do nothing against storm, belcher and oath. I think that comes close to disqualifying them from the maindeck at the moment. There is the tabernacle for tokens, and tabernacle could be a maindeck consideration. I could also run eidolon of rhetoric, which covers both pyromancer and mentor reasonably well. That is probably a sideboard card though. I wouldn´t side stoneforge and eidolon in against the same decks. Ghostly prison is interesting, but as you suggest, mentor will overpower it if it is allowed to play spells freely.
Noble hierarch is interesting. It may be more powerful than the spirit guides. The basic notion behind spirit guides is that most of the powerful cards available to me cost 1W and playing one the first turn is very important, since a combo player will need two counters to be able to untap and win turn three as opposed to one. A slower but more robust development will often be superior though.
Mental missteps may very well come in. They could easily replace swords to plowshares, for instance. Misstep is so bad against shops though.
And dryad militant is probably better now than ever. I´ll find room for it, since it easens the curve at any point in the game and is always relevant to a certain degree. Against creature decks, it attacks and blocks. The first inclination would be to shave a few arbiters/mindcensors and replace them with militants. I´m still not sure on which of those two to cut though, and how many: arbiter or mindcensor?

[xouman]

Mindcensor flies and is asymmetric, but the extra mana is terrible. If someday wizards print a leyline with this effect, fetchlands will dissapear (or close to it) because disabling the first fecthland is worse than wasting a land because you get at least one mana. Thalia and arbiter/mindcensor are the first effects you want to play against most decks, and you want them ASAP. Besides, between your first 3 lands there would be a wasteland, and you want to play it as soon as possible. If you have to wait a turn in order to play mindcensor, maybe you are losing that same turn. Still there are decks like dredge, mud or oath that are not really hampered by this effect, so playing 6 is too much, even with ghost quarter.

I also forgot about serenity, probably the best card against mud. Also abolish can win games nearly lost.

Overall I like your comments, it's clear you understand the deck better than me Good luck and keep us up to date with your results!

[msg67183]

I know someone who played White Trash recently at an event and he said his worst matchup is Mentor. What can this deck do to combat Mentor decks?

[Naixin]

I know someone who played White Trash recently at an event and he said his worst matchup is Mentor. What can this deck do to combat Mentor decks?

This is a hard topic to approach. 2 cards i've found that were great against mentor was Jitte and Batterskull with SFM, but mentor decks run dack so it's a tough call.

I'd say the best bet is a combination of thalia and canonsworn to limit their prowess triggers.

[RecklessEmbermage]

I know someone who played White Trash recently at an event and he said his worst matchup is Mentor. What can this deck do to combat Mentor decks?

We have pondered over this in other threads. you might want to go to the stone-cold humans thread to see various suggestions. I´ve previously used eidolon of rhetoric, since it stops artifacts from being cast, as well as tabernacle at pendrell vale in concoction with knight of the reliquary and land destruction.

Although I´ve used both against menotor, I don´t have enough experience to tell you if they are your actual best options. Other people have surely tested enough though.

As a side note, I´ve tested the above list a bit. First few conclusions is that Knight of the reliquary is too slow (not a bomb, I guess) and that ESGs are just inferior to moxen in most circumstances: The most important use of accel in this deck is to be able to play consecutive two-drops on turns one and two. Moxen do that as effectively as ESGs on turn one if I land a stony silence and if I don´t, their mostly upside. I´m also testing Meddling mage off 4 caverns (and tundras) in the main, as it should be very strong against storm and not useless against shops.

[xouman]

My personal thought is that monowhite is ill-prepared to fight mentors, or even pyromancers. Jitte is probably its best tool, but I'd play stony silence in monowhite so it's a nonbo.

Adding black helps, since it has some tools to kill tokens or even engineered plague.

Adding red instead also helps, with sudden shock (sulfur elemental is not advisable when playing thalias, wingmares or spirits of the labyrinth) and also has other mana/artifact denial cards, helping the archetype.

[serracollector]

Peacekeeper and the white propaganda seem like choices to try versus mentor/pyro as well.

[Ten-Ten]

Against bigger, heavier on creature kinda decks or mass tokens: Blinding Angel,  Exalted angel, Baneslayer Angel, ghostly prison and maybe even circle of protection: ....wait for it....... White/ Red

[Apocolyps6]

I've made the Mentor/Pyro matchup tolerable by playing the SFM package instead of Stony Silence, and a second Jitte in the sideboard. Instead I use 3x of each Leonin Relic-Warder and Phyrexian Revoker to harass moxen.

This is my current decklist: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/rodless-white-trash-2/

Mentor decks when they draw their mentors are basically the only bad matchup so far

[Ten-Ten]

@apocolyps6:
Ooooh, I forgot about Brimaz. How is he working out so far? Seems awesome in your list.

[Apocolyps6]

I've been pretty happy with him as a win con. He survives bolt and most creatures, can be protected by Karakas, makes his own backup win con in case the opponent finds an answer.

WW can be hard on the mana. Both of the WW cards are Cats, so naming that with Cavern is an option. Tho Soldier for (Thalia and later Brimaz) and Spirit are usually higher priorities.