What to Run for Lands 15-18/19 in Shops?

[Arianeira]

What to run for Lands 15-18/19 in shops?

Answer is probably different depending on what build you run.

Currently running a Forgemaster build with a 2/2 split of Cavern of Souls and Mishra's Factory and no 19th land on MTGO.    

Feel it is the most versatile because of Forgemaster Tutoring.   Did not like Stax.  Would like to try Frobots but do not really feel like spending money to buy Ravagers online.

for main deck.

Buried Ruin: Gets your artifact back.   More for builds running Crucible main deck.

Cavern of Souls.  Good versus blue.  Lets you resolve your bombs against blue.   You can also play the blue for Phyrexian Meta Morph to take less damage.

Ghost Quarter - Another wasteland for the shops mirror.  Can be good if there is lots of shops.

Mishra's Factory.  Started trying these when I played lots of shops mirrors. Gives additional pressure.  Can be a double edged sword if you swing with it and it gets bolted or swords and you don't have mana to play something later.  Good with Crucible or in mirrors, can trade with Lodestone or block Revoker.  Did not like 4 because wanted some Caverns against blue.

Homeward Path.  Kept getting artifacts stolen by Dack so tried this out. Gets your stuff back if Dack steals it.   Usefulness depends on how many Dacks are played.  Probably more of a sideboard land unless you see many Dack Fayden.  Online was more shops mirrors and RU and BUR though and less Dacks so stopped running it.

City of Traitors.  TAnother Sol land issue is that if you play another land it poofs.   Sometimes is decent as another Sol Land if you are playing Crucible of Worlds.

Urborg Tomb of Yawgmoth.  Tried this when I was on 4 dismember board for black mana to take less damage.   Allows you to use Mishra's Workshop to pay for Kataki or Energy FLux upkeep and helped equip Batterskull.

Sideboard lands
Tabernable of Pendrell Vale - Good against the Mentor and Pyromancer token decks and Belcher.  Issue is it does not make mana.  Sometimes sideboard one or two.

Tower of the Magistrate - haven't actually run this but I seen people run it for mirrors and equipment

Karakas. Bounces Emrakul, Griselbrand, Kataki.  Ran a couple in my board early in the cycle right after Tempest Remaster when there was still a decent amount of Oath but since cut them since rarely see Oath on MTGO anymore.  Is there that much Oath these days I barely see any online.    I used to play Oath myself and stupid Containment Priest popularity with her friend Monastery mentor made Oath much less effective nerfing the Show and Tell back up plan as well so you need to either Abrupt Decay the Priest or run Omniscience.  Karakas mostly hits Kataki which is a bad news bear but is it worth boarding just for Kataki if there is not much Oath.

[Minkar]

Sideboard lands
Tabernable of Pendrell Vale - Good against ... Belcher.

Mind explaining this? Can't seem to figure out if that's just a typo or not...

[TheWhiteDragon]

Belcher often runs Empty the Warrens as a plan B....sometimes 3-4 main since you won't always see a charbelcher in your opener or as you dig.  It's basically charbelcher 5-8 and gets around null rod/counters.

[Islandswamp]

Tabernacle is pretty good at keeping the amount of Young Pyromancer tokens manageable.

Personally, I just built Montolio's list and went from there. My friend Thiim (also on MTGO) has done well with Shops, so I'd check his deck lists too. Try MTGGoldfish or TCDecks.

I like to download a deck, import it, try to learn it, and then tune it.

[tito del monte]

Given the preponderance of Shops online at the moment, I would add a singleton Ghost Quarter to your list of possible maindeck inclusions.

Also, as more of a sideboard choice, one card I've been kind of keeping an eye on is Tomb of the Spirit dragon (2T: Gain 1 life for each colourless creature you control). Perhaps something fringe-playable in a list that makes lots of Thopters...

[rikter]

I prefer the factories personally. Like you said, sometimes they get killed and its a bummer, but for me it's worth it.

[Dice_Box]

Factory for me. The amount of times I have locked myself out with Sphere-effects and killed with a mix of Factories and Wasteland. It's just too useful not to have.

Sideboard I run Tabernacles and a Ghost Quarter. The Quarter I could see main but I would have to see a very inbreed meta to run Tabernacle main.

[Flash_Hulk]

4x Factory is always the best default, the synergy with the deck is crucial.

Adjusting this slot is really meta dependent, and generally not worth it;

Homeward Path - Meh. If your seeing allot of Dack, sure.

Cavern - Again, very meta dependent. If your playing MTGO, not worth the main deck, ATM.

Ghost Quarter - I find 3x Factory 1x Ghost Quarter perfectly acceptable in a shops heavy meta.

Tabernacle - I love this card, and I hate this card. I would not main deck it, and out of the board it has either been really good, or an utter blank. I do like 1x Tabernacle and 2x Dismember out of the board against creature/token decks.

[rikter]

I don't bother running the caverns in vintage, the spheres do a good enough job for me generally.

I am also pretty meh on homeward path, since we have revokers.

Tabernacle is a cool card, but meta dependent.

I am assuming you are main decking Academy right?

[Will]

4x Factory is always the best default, the synergy with the deck is crucial.

Adjusting this slot is really meta dependent, and generally not worth it;

Homeward Path - Meh. If your seeing allot of Dack, sure.

Cavern - Again, very meta dependent. If your playing MTGO, not worth the main deck, ATM.

Ghost Quarter - I find 3x Factory 1x Ghost Quarter perfectly acceptable in a shops heavy meta.

Tabernacle - I love this card, and I hate this card. I would not main deck it, and out of the board it has either been really good, or an utter blank. I do like 1x Tabernacle and 2x Dismember out of the board against creature/token decks.

Maybe it's your lack of acknowledgement for the difference between "your" and "you're" that biases me, but saying that it's not worth it to adjust your last 4 lands or that Factory should always be the default seems flawed and baseless.

If you know what metagame you are going to be going into then you can adapt. To continue the trend of just saying what we like certain cards for, Cavern is ideal against blue control and Gush strategies. Factories and Ghost Quarter are best against Dredge and Workshops with Factory providing extra beats against everything, specifically planeswalkers and Ghost Quarter being solid against all decks not sporting more than 1 basic. Homeward Path is far and away the best answer to Dack Fayden out of a Shop deck and Tabernacle is almost solely Dredge hate out of the sideboard because it doesn't tap for mana.

[cutlex]

Factory seems by far the best in a vacuum:
-Beats on planeswalkers
-Good against oath
-Great in ground combat in general
-Extra artifact for Forgemaster

Cavern could be better in a metagame saturated in Blue control decks filled with Mana Drains, but it seems like most counterspells we're running into these days are Force of Wills. Resolving a threat doesn't help against a grip of Chewers/Bolts/Plows.

Buried Ruin has really fallen out of favor, but it seems like a decent alternative if you're playing with big guys or utility cards that you want to reuse (Wurmcoil or Trike, Ratchet Bomb, etc.) or if you want extra lands that are solid against Dredge. Very slow card though.

Ghost Quarter seems a bit dodgy in the mainboard unless you're running Crucible or are confident in running into a ton of mirrors.

Homeward Path is better if you're running a lot of dangerous things that need to avoid getting dack'd (Wurmcoil Engine, Legionnaire, etc.). Is it worth including instead of/in combination with Ravager?

It's been a while since I've seen Karakas being used, but a heavy prison/mana denial build might like these to really put the squeeze on Oath. I think those builds are already stronger than general in that matchup, though, and Oath seems to be underplayed now in general since the printing of Containment Priest.

Does anyone else have any experience running Urborg? I've been seeing a lot of Dismembers being played, but not many of this land. I know that I suffer a lot of life loss in those lists, but I'm not sure if it's worth the opportunity cost of another utility land and/or potentially mana fixing an opponent.

[JesterSB]

I'm certainly no expert, but I plan on running 19 lands with 4 factories and 1 cavern main, 1 Tabernacle and 2 ghost quarter in the side.

[Flash_Hulk]

4x Factory is always the best default, the synergy with the deck is crucial.

Adjusting this slot is really meta dependent, and generally not worth it;

Homeward Path - Meh. If your seeing allot of Dack, sure.

Cavern - Again, very meta dependent. If your playing MTGO, not worth the main deck, ATM.

Ghost Quarter - I find 3x Factory 1x Ghost Quarter perfectly acceptable in a shops heavy meta.

Tabernacle - I love this card, and I hate this card. I would not main deck it, and out of the board it has either been really good, or an utter blank. I do like 1x Tabernacle and 2x Dismember out of the board against creature/token decks.

Maybe it's your lack of acknowledgement for the difference between "your" and "you're" that biases me, but saying that it's not worth it to adjust your last 4 lands or that Factory should always be the default seems flawed and baseless.

If you know what metagame you are going to be going into then you can adapt. To continue the trend of just saying what we like certain cards for, Cavern is ideal against blue control and Gush strategies. Factories and Ghost Quarter are best against Dredge and Workshops with Factory providing extra beats against everything, specifically planeswalkers and Ghost Quarter being solid against all decks not sporting more than 1 basic. Homeward Path is far and away the best answer to Dack Fayden out of a Shop deck and Tabernacle is almost solely Dredge hate out of the sideboard because it doesn't tap for mana.

Perhaps you missed the part I clearly discuss meta consideration??

And sorry to offended you Grammer Gestapo.

[Will]

4x Factory is always the best default, the synergy with the deck is crucial.

Adjusting this slot is really meta dependent, and generally not worth it;

Homeward Path - Meh. If your seeing allot of Dack, sure.

Cavern - Again, very meta dependent. If your playing MTGO, not worth the main deck, ATM.

Ghost Quarter - I find 3x Factory 1x Ghost Quarter perfectly acceptable in a shops heavy meta.

Tabernacle - I love this card, and I hate this card. I would not main deck it, and out of the board it has either been really good, or an utter blank. I do like 1x Tabernacle and 2x Dismember out of the board against creature/token decks.

Maybe it's your lack of acknowledgement for the difference between "your" and "you're" that biases me, but saying that it's not worth it to adjust your last 4 lands or that Factory should always be the default seems flawed and baseless.

If you know what metagame you are going to be going into then you can adapt. To continue the trend of just saying what we like certain cards for, Cavern is ideal against blue control and Gush strategies. Factories and Ghost Quarter are best against Dredge and Workshops with Factory providing extra beats against everything, specifically planeswalkers and Ghost Quarter being solid against all decks not sporting more than 1 basic. Homeward Path is far and away the best answer to Dack Fayden out of a Shop deck and Tabernacle is almost solely Dredge hate out of the sideboard because it doesn't tap for mana.

Perhaps you missed the part I clearly discuss meta consideration??

And sorry to offended you Grammer Gestapo.

I didn't miss it, you basically voided everything that you said by saying this before discussing meta consideration.

Adjusting this slot is really meta dependent, and generally not worth it;

The highest placing player at Vintage Champs playing Forgemasters was some guy named Will playing 4 Cavern of Souls, 2 Homeward Path and 0 Mishra's Factory MD, but what do I know, I'm just the "Grammer Gestapo"...

My point is that there should not be a "default" land, you should decide your list based on your metagame. If you meant that Mishra's Factory should be your starting point, then fine but to me your post read that Mishra's Factory is the best default and you should almost never change to another land which is just patently untrue. For the past year, Cavern of Souls was the de facto choice for Forgemaster lists in paper Magic. The scales may have shifted back to Mishra's Factory, but Cavern of Souls should not be written off.

Arianeira, I would run a 2/2 split of Cavern and Factory until you get more comfortable with the deck and the metagame.

[Flash_Hulk]

With the paper and online meta infested with shops, Cavern is simply not optimal, IMO.

Again, it's a meta consideration, but the default consistent shops land base is going to give you the most play across the board.

[Commandant]

With the paper and online meta infested with shops, Cavern is simply not optimal, IMO.

Again, it's a meta consideration, but the default consistent shops land base is going to give you the most play across the board.

You're just 100% incorrect. A 2/2 split seems very prudent in  an unknown meta and despite what you may believe blue based decks still make up a large % of any given meta game. Cavern is a gigantic pain in the ass for a number of control decks.

[Prospero]

It's never easy to admit that we're wrong, but it's a necessary function of improving.  

First, a story:

With the rise in popularity of Jace, the Mind Sculptor (henceforth Jace) in 2010, Workshop decks needed an answer to a fast planeswalker.  Jace's unsummon ability was able to protect him reasonably well, and the plus ability was able to end games (albeit in grueling, boring fashion).  

While Jace and Lodestone Golem were both printed in Worldwake, Lodestone Golem was an auto-include, while Jace took some time to replace Tezzeret as the planeswalker of choice.  In the time before Jace's rise, the best performing Workshop deck of the time was Espresso Stax, a Smokestack based MUD prison deck that used Serum Powder to consistently find devastating hands.  The first iterations of Espresso used Rishadan Port to great effect.  The rise of Jace necessitated their omission, and the inclusion of Mishra's Factory.  

Espresso was dominant in its time, but the rise of token based strategies nerfed Smokestack pretty hard.  I played one of the last successful Espresso builds, using Ratchet Bombs and Steel Hellkites (replacing Karn, Silver Golem) to clean up the board before Smokestack finally accomplished what it was meant to.  

As Espresso Stax eventually faded away, it was succeeded by Martello Shops, a Forgemaster based Workshop deck that sought to keep an opponent off balance until Forgemaster was able to end the game with a devastating creature, albeit Sundering Titan, Steel Hellkite, Wurmcoil Engine, etc.  Mishra's Factory was immediately included in Martello for two reasons:

1.  It was a quick answer to a troublesome planeswalker (re: Jace).

2.  It was an easy artifact to sacrifice to the Forgemaster, helping the end-game.

Martello Shops has been wildly successful in the last few years, but the environment around it has been changing.  Most notably, Jace has seen significantly less play than he saw just a few years ago.  As Jace has declined in play, many tempo strategies have either gotten better (U/R Delver), or been born (U/W/R Mentor).  Mishra's Factory, which comfortably had four slots in Workshop decks for the better part of five years, has found its position newly tenuous.

Last summer, Jace was dealt another brutal blow with the printing of Dack Fayden.  The tempo decks sought to land an early threat, use counter-magic to keep you off balance, and then be ready to swing for lethal once you were finally getting ready to establish board control.  Dack changed the nature of defending a planeswalker for Workshop decks.  In the past, Jace's unsummon ability bounced threats, but Dack's ability to outright steal them meant that you couldn't just swing through an empty board to kill the opposing planeswalker.

This presented Workshop decks with two problems:

1.  The traditional Workshop answer to planeswalkers (Mishra's Factory) was no longer able to serve its role as effectively as it had in the past.

2.  Stolen threats were potentially able to hold down the board, or even outright win the game against you.  

In order to fight Dack, Workshop decks had to be able to answer the planeswalker, but they also had to ensure that one or two pieces of counter-magic didn't completely nix their ability to fight an early game.

Raffaele Forino suggested Homeward Path to Vinnie and I, and we immediately picked up playsets of them.  Homeward Path, in being a land, presented an answer to Dack that the tempo decks weren't able to easily answer.  As they were generally light on land, running cards like Wasteland and Strip Mine were difficult, if not impossible.  

Secondly, Raf moved the Factories out of his Martello deck, and began running Cavern of Souls.  If the tempo decks are forced to fight a creature battle with Martello, they will generally lose.  The early countermagic that stopped a Lodestone Golem, or a Kuldotha Forgemaster was what really won the game, not the Delver, Pyromancer, or Mentor.  

Finally, the point; while running a split of Caverns and Factories may seem optimal, I think it's a hedge that doesn't necessarily get you to where you need to go.  Workshop decks are concentrated hate decks.  They are meant to show up to a known metagame, and use their consistency to beat opposing decks.  There is no good draw engine for Shops, so if you fall behind, you're likely not making it back to parity, let alone winning the game.  If you don't know what the field is going to be like, you're walking into a bad Workshop metagame.  

What other lands should be run?  Keep an open mind, consider the problems of your metagame, and see what lands can be used to address those problems.  All the decklists from Champs are going to be published this week, so it's pointless not answering honestly (if people were looking for the 75 that I ran with the Forinos); I had maindeck Ghost Quarter, maindeck Tabernacles, and the full suite of eight manlands, as I played an adjusted Terra Nova build.  I liked my list a lot, though I think it has some problems.  

Regardless, good luck with the deck, and good luck at your next event.

[jcb193]

I've enjoyed this thread, though one thing about it perplexes me, and it's a trait that I have never understood in many Magic players.  Why is everything in Magic always spoken of in such absolutes.  "This is the right configuration.  This is 100% incorrect.  That strategy is wrong."  Is it a trait of the game, or a personality trait of Magic players?  You don't ever see it in sports.  Most coaches will say "that is our highest percentage play," but almost never "that is the 100% right play."

There are so many mathematicians, strategist, and intelligent people in the Magic community, and yet I rarely ever hear the words "That might work"  or "I prefer a different configuration." It always seems to be "No, that's wrong, this is right."  And then the person goes on to back it up with a reference to a 1st place in a tournament or a night of playtesting.  There are so many millions of variables to winning a Magic tournament, or having a successful day of playtesting, that I never understood how this line of thinking can stand up to scrutiny.  I understand how a successful run with a deck can be helpful, but not sure how it becomes an absolute. 

Isn't the point of Magic is that there is no one particular strategy that always works, and even high percentage plays are often irrelevant?  .

[Chubby Rain]

I've enjoyed this thread, though one thing about it perplexes me, and it's a trait that I have never understood in many Magic players.  Why is everything in Magic always spoken of in such absolutes.  "This is the right configuration.  This is 100% incorrect.  That strategy is wrong."  Is it a trait of the game, or a personality trait of Magic players?  You don't ever see it in sports.  Most coaches will say "that is our highest percentage play," but almost never "that is the 100% right play."

There are so many mathematicians, strategist, and intelligent people in the Magic community, and yet I rarely ever hear the words "That might work"  or "I prefer a different configuration." It always seems to be "No, that's wrong, this is right."  And then the person goes on to back it up with a reference to a 1st place in a tournament or a night of playtesting.  There are so many millions of variables to winning a Magic tournament, or having a successful day of playtesting, that I never understood how this line of thinking can stand up to scrutiny.  I understand how a successful run with a deck can be helpful, but not sure how it becomes an absolute. 

Isn't the point of Magic is that there is no one particular strategy that always works, and even high percentage plays are often irrelevant?  .

Excellent post!

[vaughnbros]

I've enjoyed this thread, though one thing about it perplexes me, and it's a trait that I have never understood in many Magic players.  Why is everything in Magic always spoken of in such absolutes.  "This is the right configuration.  This is 100% incorrect.  That strategy is wrong."  Is it a trait of the game, or a personality trait of Magic players?  You don't ever see it in sports.  Most coaches will say "that is our highest percentage play," but almost never "that is the 100% right play."

There are so many mathematicians, strategist, and intelligent people in the Magic community, and yet I rarely ever hear the words "That might work"  or "I prefer a different configuration." It always seems to be "No, that's wrong, this is right."  And then the person goes on to back it up with a reference to a 1st place in a tournament or a night of playtesting.  There are so many millions of variables to winning a Magic tournament, or having a successful day of playtesting, that I never understood how this line of thinking can stand up to scrutiny.  I understand how a successful run with a deck can be helpful, but not sure how it becomes an absolute.  

Isn't the point of Magic is that there is no one particular strategy that always works, and even high percentage plays are often irrelevant?  .

Excellent post!

This is a great post.  Not to derail this thread, but I agree absolutism seems to be a stance that is taken way too often.  Although I will point out that it depends on your interpretation of these statements.  I implicitly place, "in my opinion" or "as far as I know", before pretty much every statement anyone makes period, which adjusts for all of the absolutist stances that people take.   I'll also say that I disagree that this is limited to just magic.  As a statistician both the statements "that is 100% the right play" and "that is our highest percentage play" read the exact same to me.  It seems these types of stances are incredibly common to encounter in any discussion about sports, politics, and a number of other areas especially when they are expressed in forms of media, like facebook, television, ect.

To add to the main thread here, there are so many great choices for lands in Workshops now and it really all depends on what you end up playing.  Ghost quarter and buried ruin, which were both left out of the original post, are actually two of my personal favorites as they interact so well crucible of worlds.  

As to land count I wouldn't want to be playing less than 18 unless my mana curve and sphere count were lower than most shops lists are playing.

Also does tabernacle really count towards your land count given that it can't actually tap for mana?

[Arianeira]

Thank you for all the replies.  Is everyone else  on a Forgemaster build as well?  I am finding different builds different lands are better.

Stax builds liked Mishra's Factory for attacking and you could get it back with Crucible and Urborg actually was good with Null Rod.  Buried Ruin may be good here to combo with Crucible.

I would think that the aggressive builds with Ravager would want Mishra's Factory for more aggression.  I never played them yet.  Might buy Ravagers online eventually to try it but haven't been that motivated to play that much with the playpoint changes. 

@Islandswamp
Will have to try out Montolio's list.   He constantly changes it though.  I remember losing to him back when I was still on Oath.   Still lose to him in workshop mirrors he is really good.  He is on 4 Factory last time I checked though.

@tito del monte
Tomb of the Spirit Dragon I saw in standard for the Blue Red Ensoul Aritfact deck sideboard to beat burn.  There is no burn in vintage and Wurmcoil or Batterskull are more general purpose.

@rikter
Revokers can get destroyed more often then Homeward Path and you may have played it to turned off Artifact mana early.  Yes I am maindecking Academy.   The usual first 14 lands would be 4 Mishra's Workshop, 4 Ancient Tomb, 1 Tolarian Academy, 1 Strip Mine, 4 Wasteland.  We are discussing lands 15-18/19.   Although I noticed some running 20.

@cutlex
Cavern was much better when there was more Oath and Drain decks.   Was pretty key in resolving your Duplicant or Metamorph on Griselbrand if they actually put Griselbrand into play and getting a key threat trained was really bad news.

Forgemaster tends to run big things that if Dack steals is bad news.   It is even bad if Dack steals your Lodestone but if you run Factories you can block and tradw with it.

Karakas was much better when there was more Oath and has the added bonus of bouncing Kataki.   Have not run Karakas in awhile.

Urborg I found really good in lists that ran Null Rod.  When I was running Stax with Null Rod, Urborg was excellent for animating Mishra's Factory since you could use Workshop or not have to take pain from Ancient Tomb.  Not quite as good in a Forgemaster list.


@Will
20 lands seems a little high to flood out but it obviously worked for Will.  I am running a 2/2 split now.   I was sideboarding some Homeward Paths for awhile but its pretty tight.  Might fit one main.   Dacks are really annoying.

@Prospero
Thank you for the story and information. very informative.  Nice point about no draw Engine.  I was trying 2 Coercive Portal for a draw engine but that could be hard to get through Spheres and I want back to Staff of Nin cause it could ping Pyromancers.

@Jcb193
Very good point.

@vaughnbros
Good point about Buried Ruin and Ghost Quarter added them to the list.  It does matter what build of shops you are running and what your meta is.

[Will]

@Will
20 lands seems a little high to flood out but it obviously worked for you.  I am running a 2/2 split now.   I was sideboarding some Homeward Paths for awhile but its pretty tight.  Might fit one main.   Dacks are really annoying.

Fixed that for you.

[vaughnbros]

@Will
20 lands seems a little high to flood out but it obviously worked for you.  I am running a 2/2 split now.   I was sideboarding some Homeward Paths for awhile but its pretty tight.  Might fit one main.   Dacks are really annoying.

Fixed that for you.

You did refer to yourself in the third person earlier...

[Random Noob]

Only Siths deal in absolutes.

As I am trying out much by myself, I get always surprised when I get back to Factories, they seem simple, but are pretty fitting the landstillish Sphere Plan. Also blocking for 3/3 can get really handy, when you got some Crucibles. And it's always best plan against Energy Flux.

Nasty Tech I had seen some time ago, and I had some succes with, are Petrified Field. The thought is, that a Shop is for Mud, what a Bazaar is for Dredge, and that's the worst case, when your Shop becomes wasted. Also grabbing own Wastelands out of your Grave, when your Base/Sphere presence is established is fine.