Cabal Pit vs Barbarian Ring - and other sideboard discussion

[gkraigher]

One of the bigger innovations to come out of Vintage Worlds was that two decks in the top 32, one in the top 8, were playing these lands in their 75 to deal with containment priest.

While the Barbarian Ring adds reach, and the ability to hit planeswalkers, I think that Cabal Pit is slightly better.  The reason why I am leaning towards pit is because of the fact that I would board it in the mirror match.  I'd cut petrified field, and replace it with the pits, so casting bloodghast is easier.  

Where does the community stand on this issue?

This is my current Dredge List:

4 bazaar of baghdad
4 mana confluence
4 petrified field
4 undiscovered paradise
1 dakmor salvage

4 serum powder
4 bridge from below

4 golgari grave-troll
4 stinkweed imp
4 golgari thug
4 narcomobea
4 bloodghast
4 ichorid
1 flame-kin zealot

4 cabal therapy
1 ancestral recall
1 dread return

4 leyline of the void (FLEX SPOT, could be chewers, wipsmeres, claims...other sideboard cards)

sideboard:
4 cabal pits
4 ingot chewer
4 nature's claim
3 wispmare

[Chubby Rain]

Barbarian Ring was a nod to the Workshops matchup as it was another land capable of casting Ingot Chewer. Cabal Pit doesn't quite have the same utility there as you aren't really looking to cast your creatures (aside from Chewer) in that matchup.

[gkraigher]

Why would you board in barbarian ring against MUD?  What card would you possibly take out?

You're not taking out rainbow lands or petrified field for it. 

[Chubby Rain]

Why would you board in barbarian ring against MUD?  What card would you possibly take out?

You're not taking out rainbow lands or petrified field for it. 

You generally board in more lands against Shops as you need to be able to cast your artifact removal through their spheres.

I would also probably board out your therapies, dread return, and flame kin zealots against Shops.

But then again, I don't play Dredge...or Shops. I'm trusting Sullivan Brophy on the Barbarian Ring thing and I think Tom Dixon was a strong advocate of the card.

[msg67183]

Why would you board in barbarian ring against MUD?  What card would you possibly take out?

You're not taking out rainbow lands or petrified field for it. 

You generally board in more lands against Shops as you need to be able to cast your artifact removal through their spheres.

I would also probably board out your therapies, dread return, and flame kin zealots against Shops.

But then again, I don't play Dredge...or Shops. I'm trusting Sullivan Brophy on the Barbarian Ring thing and I think Tom Dixon was a strong advocate of the card.

Against Shops we (Sullivan Brophy, myself, etc) board out 4 Cabal Therapy, 4 Leyline of the Void, 1 Elesh Norn, 1 Dragonlord Kolaghan, 1 Golgari Thug, and then one last card that we are still trying to decide on. We bring in 4 Ingot Chewer 4 Serenity (much MUCH better than Nature's Claim) and 4 Barbarian Ring.

[gkraigher]

that does make some sense.  But isn't cabal pits nearly as good vs shops?  If you just want more lands, how important is the red mana? 

Am I over thinking this, how would you board this decks list in the mirror match?  Would you just cut field for nature's claim?  And run neither sideboard land?

[xouman]

I think that the key is not that barbarian ring effect > cabal pits, but red mana for ingot chewer >>> black mana for bloodghast. In fact, in lots of matches against MUD you won't have 7 cards in the grave to activate, but being able to play chewer from a lonely ring to destroy a thorn or chalice (RIP) can get you in the game.

[gkraigher]

msg67183,

Serenity is much better than nature's claim against decks like oath of druids, but how is it better vs MUD?  In your same post you just said you play more lands to cast ingot chewer, why play a spell that already costs 1 more mana? 

Also now that Acrbound Ravager is showing up in MUD lists, and often times alongside hangarback walker, is taking out leyline of the void still the right strategy?

[inkmothnexus]

ring is favored when trying to cast chewer or race, or snipe a walker.

pit is favored when on the manplan, casting therapy, activate off salvage or fogging a blightsteel.

the former situations comes up more than the latter.

both are additional mana sources against shops, which is huge.

mark's guide to boarding against shops is accurate.

in the mirror we board out fields and some mix of ichorid/thug for cards that say enchantment on them. wispmare is best obviously but claim/serenity come after that. in the mirror claim would be better than serenity, unless they're running misstep for some reason, but serenity is better overall for a lot of reasons, but that's not the subject of this thread. postboard we're at 17 mana sources, one of which is a portal, so casting it against shops isn't too hard, as they need to be playing both hate and multiple spheres to keep you off it. the upside is just so much higher than claim, although less so now that the occasional shops player keeping in chalices is less of a thing.

I'd still prefer to be able to start the game with a leyline, sure, but being able to cast spells reliably trumps that. you don't need bridge to win. if they keep a hand that can only break a bridge and make a few 1/1s, you'll probably win.

[gkraigher]

doesn't serentiy kill your leyline in the mirror, thus making it worse than nature's claim?

(I've changed the name of the thread, because we have gone off in a very interesting tangent that still seems relevant to the origional intentions of the thread)

[Chubby Rain]

doesn't serentiy kill your leyline in the mirror, thus making it worse than nature's claim?

Sully, says just that :p

The main benefit of Serenity is that it can wipe out multiple hate pieces. As a Blue Control player, I am looking to stack hate: a couple Grafdigger's Cages, a Rest in Peace, etc - this approach punishes 1 for 1 removal but gets wrecked by Serenity. Nature's Claim also plays into the abundance of Mental Missteps played by blue decks.

So while you can make the argument that Nature's Claim is better in the mirror, I think you also have to look at the metagame as a whole and in this circumstance, I feel Serenity is better.

[gkraigher]

really interesting stuff.  Yeah, Serenity does attack the dual threat of cage and rest in peace.  


after this discussion, my maindeck stays the same, but the sideboard moves to this:

4 barbarian ring
4 ingot chewer
3 serenity
4 wispmare

I would love to find room for a riftstone portal somewhere in the 75.  

Actually, I'm going to cut Flame-Kin Zealot for Dragonlord Kolaghan in the main.  It seems a lot more fun and slightly better because you can dread return it earlier.  

[Archae]

It certainly depends on the deck construction, but in general Ring is superior if you are running Chewers or worried about PWs.
One additional benefit, albeit very slight is the ability to cast your critters (read: Thugs, Imps, and Ichorids) off a Pit, which can be especially helpful in G1 when playing against more roguish decks.

In general, my views are such: if you have rainbow lands, your version of Dredge is more likely to benefit from Ring. Otherwise, Pit is probably superior. Obviously, this is a massive simplification, but it maps pretty nicely onto deck (and sideboard) construction in regards to these two strategies.

[AlmostGrown]

Hi, I'm new to dredge. What's the logic behind dragonlord kolaghan?

[xouman]

Hi, I'm new to dredge. What's the logic behind dragonlord kolaghan?

I'm no dredge player, but I'm pretty sure that kolaghan is there to substitute Flame-kin zealot giving haste to your creatures zombies from below, trying to kill in the big turn without having to pass the turn.

[AlmostGrown]

But how is it better than fkz? Because of the static ability that grants haste?

[TheBrassMan]

It's bigger on it's own, making it a better small-ball dread return target. If you have less than lethal zombies in play, you're better off having the large body of a Dragonlord stick around than a 2/2 Flame Kin Zealot.

Of course there are tradeoffs, there are boards where FKZ deals more damage - particularly when there are blockers involved. And of course not every dredge deck wants a haste enabler at all

[vaughnbros]

But how is it better than fkz? Because of the static ability that grants haste?

It pitches to Ichorid and still functions for the primary role of granting haste to zombies.

[Islandswamp]

Why would you board in barbarian ring against MUD?  What card would you possibly take out?

You're not taking out rainbow lands or petrified field for it. 

You generally board in more lands against Shops as you need to be able to cast your artifact removal through their spheres.

I would also probably board out your therapies, dread return, and flame kin zealots against Shops.

But then again, I don't play Dredge...or Shops. I'm trusting Sullivan Brophy on the Barbarian Ring thing and I think Tom Dixon was a strong advocate of the card.

Against Shops we (Sullivan Brophy, myself, etc) board out 4 Cabal Therapy, 4 Leyline of the Void, 1 Elesh Norn, 1 Dragonlord Kolaghan, 1 Golgari Thug, and then one last card that we are still trying to decide on. We bring in 4 Ingot Chewer 4 Serenity (much MUCH better than Nature's Claim) and 4 Barbarian Ring.

I trust gottshall, brophy, and dixon to have done their homework. I've played against Sulivan, and he was very good at playing the deck.

T
Good work guys!

[gkraigher]

It pitches to Ichorid and still functions for the primary role of granting haste to zombies.

this is a relevant interation I hadn't thought of.  I figured it was just a better target for dread return because you can do it earlier, but this interaction alone makes it better than flame-kin.

He also has an ability that prevents creatures (or planeswalkers) from being cast.  You can ravager me once, but draw another one and you can't cast it. 

[Bips]

Dragonlord also gives haste the next turn (if there will be one). FKZ only gives your team haste once.
He flies, so he's better vs (Magus of the) Moat.

@gkraigher:
He does not prevent those cards from being played IF your opponent has a copy of it in his/her graveyard.
And even than it will cost them 10 life, so they MIGHT be able to cast them and pay the life...
Also note that is says CAST, so it won't trigger with something like Oath, Show and Tell or any other alternative way of putting said cards onto the battlefield.

[gkraigher]

i stand corrected, you can still cast the card, at at hefty price. 

[Bips]

Not realy a sideboard question, but I saw the post-B&R list from mr. Brophy and couldn't quite comprehend some of the changes.
Basically it was his Eternal Weekend list
- FKZ, + Dragonlord
-2 Mana Confluence, +1 Riftstone Portal, +1 Karakas
-1 Thug, +1 Dakmor Salvage
Sideboard:
-4 Nature's Claim, +4 Serenity

Dragonlord has been discussed. Serenity and Riftstone Portal as well.
But can someone tell me why change Thug for Salvage and why play Karakas?

Is Karakas for the Oath matchup (due to Serenity being worse in that matchup than Nature's Claim)?
Or is it a hedge agains baby Jace? Or is it to bounce Dragonlord and/or Elesh Norn to protect them from Swords to Plowshares?


One other question I have is: Would it help to play 1 Maindeck Ancient Grudge as a hedge against Vault/Key oriented decks?

[msg67183]

Not realy a sideboard question, but I saw the post-B&R list from mr. Brophy and couldn't quite comprehend some of the changes.
Basically it was his Eternal Weekend list
- FKZ, + Dragonlord
-2 Mana Confluence, +1 Riftstone Portal, +1 Karakas
-1 Thug, +1 Dakmor Salvage
Sideboard:
-4 Nature's Claim, +4 Serenity

Dragonlord has been discussed. Serenity and Riftstone Portal as well.
But can someone tell me why change Thug for Salvage and why play Karakas?

Is Karakas for the Oath matchup (due to Serenity being worse in that matchup than Nature's Claim)?
Or is it a hedge agains baby Jace? Or is it to bounce Dragonlord and/or Elesh Norn to protect them from Swords to Plowshares?


One other question I have is: Would it help to play 1 Maindeck Ancient Grudge as a hedge against Vault/Key oriented decks?

I discussed Karakas with Sullivan. It is for white Mana, bounce opponent's Elesh Norn, the Oath matchup, Baby Jace.
I think Sullivan wanted another mana source for shops, plus it allows you to use the Salvages for Bloodghasts multiple times.

[inkmothnexus]

basically what mark said. the second salvage makes bloodghast more consistent.

karakas is an experiment. the manabase is an interesting thing in a deck like this. when boards were just a mix of claim/chain/chewer/wispmare/etc a solely 5 color manabase is necessary, but I'm not sure how true that is anymore. my list has 7/6/9/10/6 WUBRG sources plus portal. the 8 rainbow land lists prering played 8/8/9/8/8. portal is insane against shops and ok against other decks. cutting a confluence for karakas still leaves plenty of red sources and the same number of white sources while adding utility against jace/griselbrand/dromoka/opposing elesh/thalia/teeg/marit lage/even karn. the cost is at our ability to cast narcomoeba or black spells, and the ability to cast black spells is slightly offset by the second salvage. it gives you an out to elesh in the mirror that you can petrified field for. karakasing our own things seems bad but having the option seems better than not, and i can see bouncing kolaghan in response to removal to discard it the next turn to fuel ichorid. swords on the big things the turn they come out doesn't seem too big of a problem given how people often have to swords the ichorid in draw step anyway. the second salvage in combination with portal also gives you the ability to potentially dredge up a white source through multiple cages. I'm fine cutting a thug, as if my ichorid get too hungry i will aggressively feed them to each other.

[Bips]

Thank you for the detailed explanation!

... my list has 7/6/9/10/6 WUBRG sources plus portal....

I only count 8 B...

I'm fine cutting a thug, as if my ichorid get too hungry i will aggressively feed them to each other.

It's not the Ichorid food I'm worried about, more the +2 dredge (or rather -2 dredge on Salvage). But I can see the advantage Salvage makes for Bloodghast and our mana.

What's your plan against the new Thirst for Knowledge Vault/Key decks (big blue / some city vault)?
And vs Combo (Blue Belcher and TPS)?
Just (try to) outrace them?

I think 1 Ancient Grudge in the main might help against at least 3 of the afore mentioned decks, as well as being good against MUD. I don't like it in the side, because a) the side is lean and clean and b) i feel like having a mainboard option against those "oops I win!" combo's these 3 decks have.
If you were to replace 1 card for Ancient Grudge, what would it be?

[jimmycolorado]

Speaking of the new Thirsty big blue mana decks, are folks running into more Blightsteel or is it just me? Leaves me pining for the days of four Chain of Vapor from the board haha

Vault/Key also wants an instant-speed answer, so if the thirst/Grixis control decks become more popular, Nature's Claim feels more right than Serenity (or Wispmare, but that dodges Mental Misstep).

Do we expect Thirst to be a chunk of the meta going forward, or will it be like when Gifts came off the B&R list, people toyed around with it for a week, then went back to their usual programming?

Looking forward to trying out Sullivan et Co.'s changes (especially Riftstone Portal, always a pet Shops tech I liked).

[inkmothnexus]

I'm not sold on grudge, as it seems worse than fatestitcher. If we had the mana to hold grudge open and devoted a slot to it, we could also just unearth fatestitcher uncounterably into a kill or further disruption. If we pass with grudge in the yard and green open, assuming a competent opponent, they will either do non vault stuff on their turn and we wasted the mana and slot, they will vault key with a counter for our grudge, or they will do nothing/play right into the grudge. You have to make decisions around holding up a grudge of unknown value. If I was to cut a card for grudge/fatestitcher, it would probably be an ichorid.

The plan against Belcher and storm is to let them get eaten alive by shops. Failing that, racing and proper therapies, and leyline against tps, especially if people are now on dark petition/cabal ritual.

Dodging misstep is huge. Serenity is worse than claim against vault and oath as cards but better against everything else.

[gkraigher]

Karakas is the best it's ever been in vintage, and only gets better the more kolaghan and prodigy jace get played.  However, I don't think I'd ever play more than 1 karakas in any deck excluding some white hate bears deck.

[msg67183]

I haven't adopted the Karakas tech yet, but it seems strong in theory. If only Mortuary Mire was a White land and put any permanent on top of your library....