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Author Topic: Boseiju. Community project.  (Read 5531 times)
John Cox
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« on: October 14, 2015, 05:12:14 am »

I've been impressed with Boseiju, to the extent that I think its possible to make a deck that relies on it to surpass the majority of the field. With a few top 8s completely dominated by blue I think now is the time to build a deck that focuses on beating blue. The idea that land is uncounterable is, I think, key. I think you could leverage this in an unconventional deck.

I think Sylvan Scrying would be really good since it gets Boseiju and can be cast with Boseiju. This opens up Dark Depths for a win. Demonic Tutor seems good, as does some land toolbox, I think Sensei's top and Fastbond should be in here too.  This is about as far as I am with this.

The deck so far looks like this,

2-4 Boseiju
2-4 Dark Depths
2-4 Thespian Stage
4 Sylvan Scrying
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Karakas
1 Strip Mine
1 Tabernacle
1-X  Sensei's Divining Top
1 Fastbond

I'd like to try for a high land count and have as many spells as possible be sorceries/instants costing  {1}+

I'd like to have a high land count and avoid graveyard reliance.

Mishra's factories are an option, so are Burgeonings and Explorations.

Does any one have input, advice? This seems like a weird deck and the format is wide open right now.
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Bips
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« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2015, 05:21:17 am »

Some cards you might want to play:

Wasteland
Life from the Loam
Bojuka Bog
Crop Rotation
Abrupt Decay
Dark Confidant

Just my $0,02
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keys
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« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2015, 05:41:17 am »

Vintage Lands? You've got my attention.
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Thiim
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« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2015, 06:37:51 am »

I think you should run the full set for more consistently going off with the combo, which is the main priority with this deck.

You mention Sylvan scrying being good for the deck, I suggest trying Into the north + Crop rotation, they are quite effecient. Expedition map is another good solution.

Considering a lot of deck in the meta is currently Uwr builds, the most dangerous card for your deck is swords to plowshares, I propose 4 Mental Misstep to deal with this. Spellskite is another approuch.

Since you run Demonic tutor, you might as well go the full distance and run, vampiric tutor, imperial seal and demonic consultation.
Bonus: Urborg might be a good addition. It serve several funtions it makes your combo faster and suplies a healthier mana base. And if you choose to run vampire hexmage, makes it more castable.
In addition you could add a cavern of souls to make hexmage uncounterable.

And like mentioned already in the post, add 4 Wasteland, they are super strong for obvious reasons.
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nedleeds
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« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2015, 09:45:52 am »

I don't think Crop Rotation is ever getting cast in a world where 90% of the blue decks are on 3+ Missteps.

2 life, discard this card: Sinkhole an opponent, they discard a card.
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Thiim
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« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2015, 11:43:40 am »

That's why I said he should run 4 missteps himself, to protect his combo. I didnt say it was perfect, but just proposed it as another way to bring the combo in play.

Besides the argument of not running 1 drops, because your opponents have access to and plays mental misstep isn't a valid argument for not running one drops, I think this is a bit narrow way to look at things and not the right approuch to attack a meta, because your afraid of one specific card.

Loosing a land is worth it, if you win the game in my opinion.
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NosferatuStuff
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« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2015, 12:01:19 pm »

Since you run Demonic tutor, you might as well go the full distance and run, vampiric tutor, imperial seal and demonic consultation.

I think the reason you start with Demonic Tutor auto include is because you make it uncounterable.  Other tutor don't have the colorless requirement and can't benefit from the Boseiju.  So you only want them if there is a really compelling reason to have them.  With Demonic and Sylvan having 3 more tutors might not be necessary.
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Wagner
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« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2015, 12:48:27 pm »

If you go with 4 of each land, Demonic Consultation is a no brainer.

Also, you might think about Glacial Chasm at least in side to deal with Mentor/Pyro decks. Tabernacle is great, but your deck might not be very fast and Boseiju will drain your life.

I know it's not the goal of the deck, but if you're running 0 creatures main, you could make room for Oath and 2 guys as alternate win con.
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Bips
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« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2015, 01:43:40 pm »

How about running 4 Dark Confidant main and have a thransformational Sideboard into Oath?
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John Cox
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« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2015, 01:57:00 pm »

Swords on Marit is bad, 4 Missteps would be money. It would be great if there was some kind of creature protecting land from legends or something. It would be great to have it searchable with scrying.
How worth it are the 1cc tutors (Crop Rotation included)? If boseiju isn't out they become something that counters get thrown at. I'm not sure how I feel about having a key setup Vamp FoW'ed.
Is there any black sorcery draw engine other than Nights Whisper? 2 life from Boseiju and another 2 from NW is rough.


How about running 4 Dark Confidant main and have a thransformational Sideboard into Oath?

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
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dangerlinto
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« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2015, 02:33:43 pm »

How about running 4 Dark Confidant main and have a thransformational Sideboard into Oath?

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

You are running 4 Dark Depths but are worried about the price of Confidant/Oath Pieces?
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boggyb
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« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2015, 02:37:34 pm »

Try Cavern on Shaman for both Hexmage and Deathrite. Pretty neat.
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Bips
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« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2015, 03:18:23 pm »

It would be great if there was some kind of creature protecting land from legends or something. It would be great to have it searchable with scrying.

There is Sejiri Steppe. Though I think that will be beter with Crop Rotation, since it's an instant...
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Wagner
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« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2015, 04:41:22 pm »

How about running 4 Dark Confidant main and have a thransformational Sideboard into Oath?

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

You are running 4 Dark Depths but are worried about the price of Confidant/Oath Pieces?

Pretty much this. A set of Oath with creatures should be $50 tops.
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John Cox
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« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2015, 05:56:02 pm »

No I meant it was a bling, or good idea lol.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2015, 05:58:33 pm by John Cox » Logged

JACO
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« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2015, 06:09:21 pm »

Is this post a joke, or no? I can't tell if you're serious or not. You want to play a deck based around Boseiju, so you're...going to jam it full of underpowered lands? Wouldn't logic dictate that you jam your deck full of cards that Boseiju casts uncounterably, like the most broken Instants and Sorceries with at least 1 colorless mana in the casting cost? Apologies if I missed the joke, but I just don't get it.
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« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2015, 06:24:18 pm »

I agree with previous post. My first thought would be Tinker and four Show and Tell.
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John Cox
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« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2015, 06:38:30 pm »

People have tried to do very obvious things with boseiju. What i think gives this deck potential is sylvan scrying, it can find boseiju as well as abuse it.
I know this needs a lot of work, but thats the fun.
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vaughnbros
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« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2015, 08:25:34 pm »

People have tried to do very obvious things with boseiju. What i think gives this deck potential is sylvan scrying, it can find boseiju as well as abuse it.
I know this needs a lot of work, but thats the fun.

I think what hes bringing up is that Boseiju is a card with a lot of limitations, and it really only makes sense if you are using to cast a game ending spell.  Boseiju is not powerful enough to do something not obvious with.

Frankly your land deck has no reason to run Bosejui because your most important cards are already uncounterable since they are in fact lands.  I'd look at the legacy lands deck if I were you and use them as a starting point: http://mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=36.  I ran a similar deck in Vintage a few years ago now right after the rule change making Stage+Depths a thing, went 2-3, but honestly Stage+Depths is way better as a plan B in something like Dredge, Shops, or another combo deck than it is as a plan A.  Vintage decks are just too well equipped to deal with a 2 card combo that only puts a 20/20 flier into play.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2015, 08:28:15 pm by vaughnbros » Logged
TheWhiteDragon
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« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2015, 08:27:22 pm »

I agree with previous post. My first thought would be Tinker and four Show and Tell.

Agreed.  Blue is the majority of top 8s. If you're going to run an off-beat land, it should obviously be in....blue.  Who better to beat blue decks than other blue decks with uncounterable spells?  Yeah, you could run a playset of Sylvan scryings and DT to uncounterably get an uncounterable win condition, but that's not blue.  Better to play ancestral, pitched FoW, alt cast gush, brainstorm, ponder, mana drain, misstep powered by your boseij...ooh wait.  So yes, boseiju is bad.  Sleeve up some underground seas and volcanic islands instead and just counterspell your way through counterspells and maybe one boseiju to resolve your restricted tinker on the off chance you draw boseiju for the one spell with colorless mana.  How's the saying go?  "If it's not blue, don't run it"...something like that.  I know the expression deals with "broken", so that must mean blue.

In all seriousness, as a fan of dark times myself, I like the inclusion of boseiju to power through sylvan scrying as DT 2-5.  Another, possibly better, or complementary approach is to run 4x living wish.  Same cost, sorcery speed.  You'll basically have DT 6-9 then, with the bonus of grabbing some critters like kataki or spellskite or contagion priest.  All of my DT builds ran a couple aether vials as well, to go all in on uncounterability. It casts your whole team @2, so it's fast to get online.  Spirit of lab, confidant, hexmage, contagion priest, qasali, spellskite....all 2cc.  Might want to try that.  Because of bounce and removal, you need 3 skite main and 1 more sb....there's just no way around it.  Even running your own missteps and discard, you still need skite.  You can't force a discard of the top decks, and they will out counter your single missteps, especially since they are stocking up on missteps and FoW, unable to counter your other spells.  Topdecking a draw spell/tutor/plow with FoWs and missteps in hand will wreck your day and pee in your cereal.  Dropping a turn 2 (or 1 with moxen) spellskite, or vialing it out in response to plow will save your wins more often than not.
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John Cox
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« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2015, 09:17:57 pm »

I'd like to break this. I'm open to blue, does anyone have suggestions?
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TheWhiteDragon
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« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2015, 10:54:15 pm »

Man, I was just kidding.  I don't think it's a fit at all in blue, but since everyone is rah rah, blue, rah lately and T8s are mostly blue, i wasn't surprised to see someone say you should stick it in a blue deck.  Time walk and tinker are probably the only spells you could use boseiju for.  Everything else has no colorless mana or an alt casting cost (though now we have thirst again).  I suppose you could cast gifts off it or whatever...maybe yawg will.  But i think a blue deck already packing draw and counters won't need a non-U land to resolve anything at the risk of hurting their manabase. At most it is a 1-2 of SB card for the mirror.  I thought my post dripped of enough sarcasm to be obvious...guess not.

GBW are the colors you want for boseiju.  Lots of strong effects for what you are trying to do and with colorless mana tacked on.  You even get decay (already uncounterable) and maelstrom pulse (uncounterable with boseiju).
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Hrishi
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« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2015, 01:07:25 am »

I'd like to break this. I'm open to blue, does anyone have suggestions?

I'd go for a dedicated Show and Tell type deck. I played one with 2 maindeck Boseijus last year, along with Eurekas. While the experiment didn't exactly go as planned, Boseiju+dumb sorcery was just as broken as advertised. I'd maybe go for a cantrip heavy shell to easily find your Show and Tells.

I agree that going for a lands-based deck completely wastes the potential of Boseiju. Boseiju signals a very fast and brutal clock for a blue opponent, because as soon as you find something to do with that Boseiju (assuming it's broken enough), the game is over. Definitely look at some broken sorceries. Show and Tell is an obvious starting point but there might be better options.
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« Reply #23 on: October 15, 2015, 09:53:21 am »

I last played Boseiju earlier this year as a 1-of in Rector Omniscience, because there were a lot of good spells to cast with it (1 Tinker, 1 Flash, 3-4 Show and Tell, 1-4 Gifts Ungiven, 1 Yawgmoth's Will, 1 Merchant Scroll, 1 Demonic Tutor, delve spells, etc.). It was pretty good in that deck, and a second was in my sideboard. Boseiju was also played as a 1 or 2-of in the Vintage Super League in the OmniOath deck, because it can make Show and Tell uncounterable (which was a 4 of in that deck), not to mention spells like Dig Through Time (which was also a 4 of in that deck).

The only tension in basing a deck around Boseiju that you might encounter is the fact that Boseiju is Legendary, comes into play tapped, and doesn't produce colored mana (the latter is the reason I only played it as a 1-of main in Omnisience). This leads you to playing fewer Boseijus, which is turn creates less incentive to design a deck entirely based around Boseiju. I think the first order of business is figuring out what game-breaking spells you are hoping to resolve (justifying Boseiju's inclusion in a deck) and then building outwards around that, taking into consideration the colorless mana issue. Now that Thirst for Knowledge is unrestricted again, it may be worth playing those partly because it's a good card, partly because you can cast it uncounterably with Boseiju, and partly because you can use it to pitch superfluous copies of Boseiju that you'll inevitably draw if you play more than 2 main deck. Dack Fayden may also be a consideration for those reason (minus the uncounterable angle).

Living Wish does seem decent if you are in to green, but then that pushes you more to the Lands.dec plan, and less towards a stream of otherwise broken cards that make Vintage rest on a knife's edge.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2015, 10:01:42 am by JACO » Logged

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« Reply #24 on: October 15, 2015, 11:49:18 am »

The reason I like boseiju in a dedicated Dark Times shell is because you essentially run 9 demonic tutors with DT, 4x sylvan, 4x wish.  Yes, your wincon is uncounterable, but GETTING your wincon isn't, which boseiju fixes.  Your marit can be plowed just as easily as BSC or jace'd just like emrakul.  Show and tell is one option, but then you have to run big, uncastable creatures, digging for your S&T AND having boseiju.  With depths/stage/hexmage, you typically draw into one piece by itself and then tutor for the other quickly.  And if you never draw boseiju, you can still get a fast Marit.  If you never draw a tutor, you can still combo.  With S&T, if you are missing one piece, it is a nonbo. Also, a colorless land is icky in a blue base, but it is fine in a deck that uses colorless to activate stage and typically runs urborg to make it tap for B.
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Aaron Patten
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« Reply #25 on: October 15, 2015, 12:00:08 pm »

Running less colours is going to help if you're running multiples of the namesake land.  Show and Tell is probably the best unrestricted card to cast off Boseiju, who Shelters All but most blue shells need a lot of blue mana and the cantrips will burn that up in a hurry.  You're going to run out of life points quite quickly so you need to only tap it a few times and have the game on lock-down after that.  You'll need some Shatterstorm like effects in the main and some way to get the mana to cast them through 13+ spheres.  If you're not on blue-black-tutors.deck you'll need multiple copies of all your game changing instants and sorceries so the restricted list will not lend as much help.  Wrath effects are going to be a must in large supply in the main since getting paired against creatures when you're paying life is a quick end.  

Based on these observations I think there are a couple options for an optimal Boseiju, who Shelters All list:
1) Mono blue deck based on Show and Tell, Day's Undoing, or maybe Upheaval.  I have only ever tested any thing close to the Upheaval idea once and it was fun but delicate.  I was using Orim's Chant(instead of boseiju) and Crop Rotation plus Tolaria West for Tolarian Academy to generate the mana(used the other draw 7s long before Day's Undoing was printed) and killed with 4 Black Vise.  You're only ever going to cast one sorcery per turn unless you want to dilute your deck with untap effects.  Stormtide Leviathan and Consecrated Sphinx(especially with Days Undoing) seem the most relevant Show and Tell targets outside of omniscience.  
2) Black-X control with Mind Twist and Toxic Deluge.  Maybe some life gain.  The second colour should be the way to get around 13+ spheres so red or green are the obvious choices to me.  Uncounterable Mind Twist plus Toxic Deluge for the monks seems fine against blue.  Merderous cut seems a must since it can be made uncounterable against blue and can be cast through spheres.  
3) ...  Dark Times I guess?
« Last Edit: October 15, 2015, 12:02:39 pm by Aaron Patten » Logged

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Khahan
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« Reply #26 on: October 15, 2015, 01:24:21 pm »

If Boseiju is used to cast a storm spell do the copies gain the benefit of Boseiju, too?
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« Reply #27 on: October 15, 2015, 11:11:09 pm »

If Boseiju is used to cast a storm spell do the copies gain the benefit of Boseiju, too?
no
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John Cox
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« Reply #28 on: October 16, 2015, 03:24:17 pm »

I think if the deck has full acceleration then blue with thirst for knowledge makes sense, and at that point if your playing oath it just becomes oath with 4 boseiju. Thats the main reason I approaching the deck from the lands perspective, I think theres an archetype here somewhere.
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« Reply #29 on: October 16, 2015, 07:44:54 pm »

The thing with any deck is you need a deck that naturally wants spells with colorless mana that are bombs when you resolve it.  Resolving thirst is nice, but is it a 3 mana bomb worth running a limited land and paying 2-life to resolve?  I don't think so.  Tinker and S&T are and yawg will is....but those are 6 cards in a deck that already has spell protection and boseiju has 0 synergy with the rest of the plan.  In dark times, boseiju can at least pay the colorless for your combo, it can force through tutors (up to 9!) to find part of a 2-card combo, those same tutors can FIND boseiju if needed to resolve something (like naturalize or something out of the sb to kill time vault through counters), and the deck runs more spells with colorless beyond the instants/sorceries (confidant, vial, priest, spirit, null rod, stony, RiP, maelstrom pulse....whatever you decide to go with).  That has a lot of synergy.
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