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Author Topic: On the stack land.  (Read 1814 times)
Wagner
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« on: November 04, 2015, 10:00:33 am »

I'm thinking of a land that would only give mana when there are spells on the stack.
I started with this:
 {Tap}: Add  {2} for every spell on the stack, but I think that would be completely busted in a few decks. However at {1}, it would probably be a bit weak.

So instead how about something like this:

Stack land
 {Tap}: Add {2} to your mana pool, use this ability only if there is at least 1 spell on the stack.

It can accelerate you on your turn, but requires that you have at least 2 things to do. You can also use it on opponent's turn, but they pretty much get to decide when you get your mana.


Current version:

{Tap}: Add {2} to your mana pool, use this ability only if at least 1 spell resolved this turn.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2015, 04:25:26 pm by Wagner » Logged
Smmenen
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« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2015, 08:14:12 pm »

Check out the postscript: http://www.eternalcentral.com/so-many-insane-plays-designing-for-eternal/

Mark Rosewater responded to my article saying that cards that discuss the stack as a zone have very little design space to offer.  Your design is brilliant, and illustrates how it is a space that can be mined.
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Wagner
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« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2015, 06:25:10 am »

In that case, and even more simple, yet also much stronger:

{Tap}: Add {2} to your mana pool, use this ability only if at least 1 spell was played this turn.
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p3temangus
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« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2015, 09:17:43 am »

I'm a huge fan of this design, and would be the fastest way to get thirst for knowledge re-restricted  Very Happy
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cycle  -> slide eternal witness-> rift your face->return cycle land with witness -> lather rinse repeat
bactgudz
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« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2015, 09:31:50 am »

I like it, it should have a timing restriction though to get around the cheatyface-oldschool-LED-style freebie ancient tomb of using this mana ability for something placed on the stack as the first step in being cast.  Or, you could just make it target and kill two birds with one stone (getting rid of "the stack"):  "T: choose any number of target spells.  Add 2 to your mana pool for each spell chosen this way."
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Wagner
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« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2015, 09:45:44 am »

I like it, it should have a timing restriction though to get around the cheatyface-oldschool-LED-style freebie ancient tomb of using this mana ability for something placed on the stack as the first step in being cast.  Or, you could just make it target and kill two birds with one stone (getting rid of "the stack"):  "T: choose any number of target spells.  Add 2 to your mana pool for each spell chosen this way."

2 mana per spell on the stack would most likely be brutal. Imagine playing a Mox/Cantrip/Ritual and having 4-6 mana on turn 2.

I think I got a pretty good fix to the timing problem.

{Tap}: Add {2} to your mana pool, use this ability only if at least 1 spell resolved this turn.

That way it's more balanced as you can't use it to counter other people's spells, yet it still works when you get your spells countered. It's also very bad in the draw-go deck mirror if they don't cast anything in their turn.





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bactgudz
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« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2015, 10:09:40 am »

I like it, it should have a timing restriction though to get around the cheatyface-oldschool-LED-style freebie ancient tomb of using this mana ability for something placed on the stack as the first step in being cast.  Or, you could just make it target and kill two birds with one stone (getting rid of "the stack"):  "T: choose any number of target spells.  Add 2 to your mana pool for each spell chosen this way."

2 mana per spell on the stack would most likely be brutal. Imagine playing a Mox/Cantrip/Ritual and having 4-6 mana on turn 2.

I think I got a pretty good fix to the timing problem.

{Tap}: Add {2} to your mana pool, use this ability only if at least 1 spell resolved this turn.

That way it's more balanced as you can't use it to counter other people's spells, yet it still works when you get your spells countered. It's also very bad in the draw-go deck mirror if they don't cast anything in their turn.



I see it fits your goal of accelerating when you have multiple things, the cool thing to me about your original idea was the different design it seemed to open up which it then loses. Power level can be scaled however appropriate:
"T: choose up to 2 target spells.  Add 2 to your mana pool  and lose 3 life for each spell chosen this way."
"T: choose 3 or more target spells.  Add 2 to your mana pool for each spell chosen this way."
"T: choose 3 or more target spells.  If those spells are not all controlled by the same player add 1 to your mana pool, gain 1 life and draw 1 card for each spell chosen this way."
All provide interesting spaces of lands that are conditionally good in counter-wars, can be build around, etc.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2015, 10:21:56 am by bactgudz » Logged
zimagic
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« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2015, 10:18:53 am »

Adding 2 per spell seems like a lot. Going : "Stack-Land, Saphire, Brainstorm, Add 4 (or 6/8 if someone Missteps/Forces)" seems like a lot.

Edit: Actually, it would be an interesting card to add to the environment as you'd strive to balance the ability to generate colourless mana (meaning instants) with something to sink it into on a consistant basis (X spells, Delve cards, artifacts & colourless activated abilities)
« Last Edit: November 05, 2015, 10:21:52 am by zimagic » Logged

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bactgudz
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« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2015, 10:23:07 am »

Adding 2 per spell seems like a lot. Going : "Stack-Land, Saphire, Brainstorm, Add 4 (or 6/8 if someone Missteps/Forces)" seems like a lot.

Edit: Actually, it would be an interesting card to add to the environment as you'd strive to balance the ability to generate colourless mana (meaning instants) with something to sink it into on a consistant basis (X spells, Delve cards, artifacts & colourless activated abilities)

And you need the colored sources in play in the first place to cast those instants and have them on the stack the same time as your mox...moxes dont tap on the stack and rituals don't add mana yet:-/...it self balances a bit; not saying 2 straight for all spell types is a good number, just that it's not quite so bad as it seems, I think you have to build around it and I don't think it'd jam into everything especially now that the delve cards are gone.

That's actually what I find interesting about it [or a related mechanic], it seems storm-like in the sense that some thought pyromancer was storm-like when spoiled...cause the closest mechanical comparison we could make was casting lots of spells; but the card doesn't really care about the spell count over a turn (storm) or a sequence of turns (pyromancer), but rather at a higher frequency (between sorcery-speed windows); so how the card would play best would likely end up very different from our initial thoughts.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2015, 10:40:52 am by bactgudz » Logged
ben_berry
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« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2015, 11:30:28 am »

I think it would turn out allot like a first main phase manadrain. Allot of colorless mana after you tapped allot. I think this would be busted in Belcher with Leyline of Anticipation.
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« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2015, 01:41:40 pm »

This would allow MUD the ability to go Mox Mox Sphere and drop this land and tap for six mana. True late game this is a bad card for MUD but the explosive starts would be worse than Workshop. Serum Powder builds would be a lil silly imo.
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Wagner
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« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2015, 01:59:31 pm »

This would allow MUD the ability to go Mox Mox Sphere and drop this land and tap for six mana. True late game this is a bad card for MUD but the explosive starts would be worse than Workshop. Serum Powder builds would be a lil silly imo.

None of the versions proposed here would do the opening you mentionned. This is not a land with Storm, of course that would be incredibly busted.

Quote
I think it would turn out allot like a first main phase manadrain. Allot of colorless mana after you tapped allot. I think this would be busted in Belcher with Leyline of Anticipation.

Would it? Belcher doesn't play many lands, it would be highly unreliable to try to have it in opening hand with Leyline. And last proposed version would give 2 mana, just like City of Traitors, which seems better in a deck with 2 lands.
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jcb193
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« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2015, 09:56:14 pm »

Check out the postscript: http://www.eternalcentral.com/so-many-insane-plays-designing-for-eternal/

Mark Rosewater responded to my article saying that cards that discuss the stack as a zone have very little design space to offer.  Your design is brilliant, and illustrates how it is a space that can be mined.

I enjoyed this old read Steve, thanks for sharing.

I too wish they could figure out a way to make the Lich mechanic work.  It was such a fascinating concept to me back in the day.  Maybe some sort of enchantment that if your life becomes zero, your life total instead converts to your permanents total, and you have to sacrifice one permanent each turn for upkeep. 
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Space_Stormy
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« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2015, 12:54:45 am »

Check out the postscript: http://www.eternalcentral.com/so-many-insane-plays-designing-for-eternal/

Mark Rosewater responded to my article saying that cards that discuss the stack as a zone have very little design space to offer.  Your design is brilliant, and illustrates how it is a space that can be mined.

It is interesting that it is an R&D perspective to refrain from using "stack" in rules text where Day's Undoing in Magic Origins has reminder text that references the stack.  Also every split second card talks about the stack but I think it goes without saying how problematic Time Spiral block was even though I really loved that set.
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