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Author Topic: New card-draw land  (Read 7439 times)
evouga
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« on: December 14, 2015, 01:13:02 am »

Land
T: Add <> to your mana pool.
2<>, T: Draw a card. Use this ability only if you have no cards in hand.

It's reusable card draw on a land, so demands some respect. Obviously any deck that wants to use this will need a reliable way of generating <>, and a need for refueling after becoming hellbent: the more aggressive shops builds, perhaps? Shops with a desire for more long-term resilience have played Staff of Nin in the past, which offers more utility, but this land is uncounterable and cheaper to get going.
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tito del monte
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« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2015, 04:58:56 am »

Yup, I think this a reasonable consideration for Shops, especially if it has less access to silver bullets like a one-of Staff of Nin in the post-Martello era. Not sure it plugs the gaps the archetype is contending with right now, but it's certainly on the "maybe" list for future builds.

Think post Shops players will be more interested in the saucy expedition Ancient Tombs first though!
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« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2015, 06:18:16 am »

Seems a bit durdly to see play in shops imo. All your lands do something better and this only turns up the heat when you're supposed to have won anyway so I doubt you would want it over lockpieces.
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fsecco
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« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2015, 08:02:40 am »

It's Sea Gate Ruins:

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gkraigher
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« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2015, 08:19:29 am »

This is a great magic card.  Will definately show up in shops, and probably show up in other archetypes as well.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2015, 02:02:44 pm by gkraigher » Logged
Chubby Rain
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« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2015, 08:25:32 am »

Many postboard games against Blue become games of attrition with the amount of removal in Blue sideboards and with Shops now lacking the ability to shut down 1cc removal spells with Chalice. I can think of many games I have played in which this card would have been scary on the opponent's side of the board and I know some Shops pilots were trying Coercive Portal so I am assuming the effect is desirable in Shops.

The issues I see are opportunity cost (what is being cut to make room for it i.e. Mishra's Factory or spells) and how awkward it may be to activate (activating this comes with the 'price' of using certain lands for mana instead of their effect like Wasteland/Strip Mine/Factory or dealing damage with Tomb or being difficult to use without Mana Artifacts if you are running Null Rod).
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dangerlinto
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« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2015, 08:44:14 am »

The issues I see are opportunity cost (what is being cut to make room for it i.e. Mishra's Factory or spells) and how awkward it may be to activate (activating this comes with the 'price' of using certain lands for mana instead of their effect like Wasteland/Strip Mine/Factory or dealing damage with Tomb or being difficult to use without Mana Artifacts if you are running Null Rod).

More importantly, what are you removing to make room for this?  Seem like Cavern is still a far better utility land to make sure your golems and constructs drop, and I can't see anyone cutting any other land in the standard shops deck, and cutting either the factories or cavern to make room for this card will, in fact, cause the aforementioned mana problem.

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xouman
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« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2015, 09:21:26 am »

Well, I'm not sure you will drop lands to play this. If you see it as a coercive portal, you can take artifact positions.

About how to pay it, there are factories, tombs, metalworkers, wastes... maybe half the mana sources of mud can pay for it.

However my question is: is this land better than coercive portal? While this is cheaper to deploy (the land drop) and can give mana, having to pay 3 every turn is really annoying. And the idea of drawing more cards is to waste lots of mana into them, so it's a bit non-bo.

Interesting? Of course, and it deserves testing. It would see play, and in cheap aggro mud builds it can have success, but imho coercive portal is better.
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MaximumCDawg
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« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2015, 11:46:46 am »

Drawing a card for 3 mana on a land -- recurrable! -- is busted.  B-U-S-T-E-D.  Sure, the condition is worse than Library of Alexandria, and it costs more, but this thing is still amazing.  I would be surprised if we don't see this card in Shops and even singletons floating around in mono- and two- color decks regularly in the future.
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TheMonadNomad
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« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2015, 01:10:52 pm »

What is the english text of the card?
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evouga
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« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2015, 02:23:21 pm »

What is the english text of the card?

It's in my first post.
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Montolio
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« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2015, 02:41:48 pm »

I think this card has big balls and will definitely see play in Shops, let alone other non-shop archetypes.
the age old story for Shops is there is minimal card draw and this card helps shore this up at the expense of another land (yes I realize that Portal / Staff draw cards)
So you take out a Cavern, Factory or Homeward Bound and slot 1 of these in it's place.
I cannot tell you how many games I have been in draw and go positions playing Shops. This card would be like hitting the lottery in those positions.
It will see play.
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« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2015, 02:44:14 pm »

There are shop decks running expedition map, and I can see this being a one-off in those decks, replacing other one-offs like buried ruins in Nick's list.

Also, works well with bottled cloister.
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« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2015, 12:54:32 pm »

This card absolutely has playable text. I've been more and more putting maps and lands in my board for matchups were my opponent is boarding out derpstep, finding this after a game has stalemated via map is pretty good. A comparable might be something like Buried Ruin, Buried Ruin required an effective 3 mana and stone raining yourself. This could provide a way to reload after a Null Brooch soft lock.
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gkraigher
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« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2015, 10:37:42 pm »

This could provide a way to reload after a Null Brooch soft lock.

Sleeve up Mishra's Workshop, Null Brooch, Ice Cauldron, and Sea Gate Ruins.  You've got a deck there.   

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evouga
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« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2015, 12:50:32 am »

I just noticed that you can exile multiple cards with Ice Cauldron, you can play those cards even without activating the Cauldron's second ability, and that if the Cauldron leaves play that does *not* stop you from later playing any spells previously exiled.

This makes the Cauldron a lot more interesting than I thought. You can stash away some gas before playing a draw 7, or use a LED to pay for a spell in your hand. You can hide countermagic in the Cauldron where it is completely safe from Cabal Therapy et al. Or use it for its intended purpose and cast Emrakul with two easy payments of 7.5 mana.

EDIT: And I just realized the Cauldron synergizes quite well with Voltaic Key, allowing you to e.g. spend X mana on your opponent's EOT to get 2X free mana during your main phase.

None of this is worth  {4}, granted, but it's still a lot more interesting than I thought.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2015, 12:56:37 am by evouga » Logged
H
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« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2015, 08:40:33 am »

I just noticed that you can exile multiple cards with Ice Cauldron, you can play those cards even without activating the Cauldron's second ability, and that if the Cauldron leaves play that does *not* stop you from later playing any spells previously exiled.

This makes the Cauldron a lot more interesting than I thought. You can stash away some gas before playing a draw 7, or use a LED to pay for a spell in your hand. You can hide countermagic in the Cauldron where it is completely safe from Cabal Therapy et al. Or use it for its intended purpose and cast Emrakul with two easy payments of 7.5 mana.

EDIT: And I just realized the Cauldron synergizes quite well with Voltaic Key, allowing you to e.g. spend X mana on your opponent's EOT to get 2X free mana during your main phase.

None of this is worth  {4}, granted, but it's still a lot more interesting than I thought.

I am fairly certain this is not how Ice Cauldron works, because you remove the charge counter as a cost when you tap it to get the mana.  Unless I am misunderstanding something, this means that untapping it will not help you get "free" mana.  All Ice Cauldron can do is basically spread the mana cost of something over two turns.
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gkraigher
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« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2015, 09:06:53 am »

I was being facetious when I brought up ice cauldron.  I believe if you read the oracle rules on that card, you will find you can only cast the last card exiled with ice cauldron.  But you can definately exile all the cards you want with it.

A much better card is gustha's scepter.
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evouga
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« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2015, 10:10:37 am »

What makes you think so? The oracle says "You may cast that card for as long as it remains exiled." It's true you can only spend the mana from the *second* ability on the last card exiled, but other exiled cards remain castable.
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vaughnbros
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« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2015, 10:25:45 am »

A much better card is gustha's scepter.

If removed the Scepter bins all of your cards, and if null roded they remain exiled forever.  I'm still trying to figure out why Ice Cauldron is relevant here... Uba mask is the best way to get hellbent in Vintage today.
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Khahan
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« Reply #20 on: December 16, 2015, 10:28:07 am »

Ice cauldron wording and rulings:

Card Text:


Variable Colorless, Tap: Put a charge counter on Ice Cauldron and exile a nonland card from your hand. You may cast that card for as long as it remains exiled. Note the type and amount of mana spent to pay this activation cost. Activate this ability only if there are no charge counters on Ice Cauldron.

Tap, Remove a charge counter from Ice Cauldron: Add Ice Cauldron's last noted type and amount of mana to your mana pool. Spend this mana only to cast the last card exiled with Ice Cauldron.

Rulings:


10/4/2004 The Cauldron counts only mana spent on it. It doesn't see the value of X, so isn't affected by cost reductions. Thus, if you spent {2}{R}{R} on X, you get {2}{R}{R} later even if X was 6.
10/4/2004 Cards which are not actually in your hand can't be exiled by the Ice Cauldron.
10/4/2004 If multiple cards are exiled by the Cauldron, the mana can only be used for the card that was exiled by the Cauldron when the most recent charge counter was put there.
10/4/2004 The mana put in the Cauldron can only be used to cast the given spell, but you can add additional mana to a spell. This means you can pay part of the cost on one turn and the rest of it on the next turn.
10/4/2004 You do not have to use any mana from the Cauldron when casting the spell if you don't want to. You don't even have to tap the Cauldron and draw the mana, you can just cast the spell using mana from somewhere else.
10/4/2004 If multiple cards are exiled by the Cauldron, any one of them can be cast.
10/4/2004 If the ability to exile a card with the Cauldron is countered, you do not lose the card since it is exiled during resolution.
10/4/2004 It is possible to have more than one card exiled by the Cauldron. You can tap the Cauldron to remove the charge counter and whatever mana is on it but leave the card there. Later, you can tap it and put in mana and a charge counter to add another card.
10/4/2004 X can be zero. This places a zero mana counter on the Cauldron.
10/4/2004 You can only cast the spell when you could legally cast it normally. So no casting a sorcery on your opponent's turn.
10/4/2004 The mana can be used to pay for additional costs to cast the spell.
10/4/2004 If the Cauldron leaves the battlefield, you can still cast any cards it exiled as though they were in your hand. You just no longer have access to the mana you charged the Cauldron with.
10/4/2004 Tapping the Cauldron for the mana is a mana ability.
10/4/2004 Produces mana of the last type used to put a counter on itself, not via any other charge counters.

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gkraigher
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« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2015, 10:59:33 am »

What makes you think so? The oracle says "You may cast that card for as long as it remains exiled." It's true you can only spend the mana from the *second* ability on the last card exiled, but other exiled cards remain castable.

ah, you are right.  So many words on that card.  

You can cast any spell exiled with ice cauldron, even after cauldron leaves play, but you can only use the second ability to produce mana on the last card exiled by ice cauldron.


"Remove a charge counter from Ice Cauldron: Add Ice Cauldron's last noted type and amount of mana to your mana pool. Spend this mana only to cast the last card exiled with Ice Cauldron."

« Last Edit: December 16, 2015, 02:38:27 pm by gkraigher » Logged
MaximumCDawg
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« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2015, 11:22:47 am »

Ice Cauldron is a worthy Magic card and I am happy we are having a serious discussion about this Ice Age gem at last.

Can we discuss the merits of Gustha's Scepter next?  Or Knowledge Vault?
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Aaron Patten
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« Reply #23 on: December 16, 2015, 11:59:51 am »

All of those cards are tech against duress Very Happy
So is Uba Mask
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« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2015, 12:04:38 pm »

Ice Cauldron is a worthy Magic card and I am happy we are having a serious discussion about this Ice Age gem at last.

Can we discuss the merits of Gustha's Scepter next?  Or Knowledge Vault?

Valid sarcasm.  The discussion was going in the direction of the benefits from being hellbent.  I think most players realize the surface applications of Sea Gate Ruins, but digging deep to find other synergies is not always obvious.  

If you told me Ornithopter was capable of being in highly competitive magic decks, I would have laughed at you in 1994.  And I'd have laughed at you in 2004, and I'd have stopped laughing at you in 2014.  

Null Brooch is actually a pretty good card, if you can set it up.  It has synergy with Ensnaring Bridge, and if you go all in on a hellbent strategy, Sea Gate Ruins all of a sudden looks like an engine.  Maybe there is some sort of Urza Tron/Cloudpost-Loci/E.Map deck out there that wins with Karn Liberated resetting the game.  

Maybe there is some sort of Lantern Control deck that also runs Brooch, Bridge, and Sea Gate Ruins.  You coud even run Force of Will, Mental Misstep, Ancestral Recall, and Field of Dreams in that deck. 
« Last Edit: December 16, 2015, 12:13:19 pm by gkraigher » Logged
Aaron Patten
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« Reply #25 on: December 16, 2015, 01:11:07 pm »

Has anyone watched the feature matches from the "God of Vintage" tournament that took place in Japan?  Uba Stax featureing Bazaars was all over that and this seems like a perfect fit for that deck.

Edit:
Here's what I'm talking about:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVlJc4LjzAY&list=PL-HjF9Jl-4X0cJthRtOUwOHD7tZYiyRrY
Should this go in the reports/results section?
« Last Edit: December 16, 2015, 01:32:36 pm by Aaron Patten » Logged

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bactgudz
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« Reply #26 on: December 16, 2015, 01:55:39 pm »

I just noticed that you can exile multiple cards with Ice Cauldron, you can play those cards even without activating the Cauldron's second ability, and that if the Cauldron leaves play that does *not* stop you from later playing any spells previously exiled.

This makes the Cauldron a lot more interesting than I thought. You can stash away some gas before playing a draw 7, or use a LED to pay for a spell in your hand. You can hide countermagic in the Cauldron where it is completely safe from Cabal Therapy et al. Or use it for its intended purpose and cast Emrakul with two easy payments of 7.5 mana.

EDIT: And I just realized the Cauldron synergizes quite well with Voltaic Key, allowing you to e.g. spend X mana on your opponent's EOT to get 2X free mana during your main phase.

None of this is worth  {4}, granted, but it's still a lot more interesting than I thought.

I am fairly certain this is not how Ice Cauldron works, because you remove the charge counter as a cost when you tap it to get the mana.  Unless I am misunderstanding something, this means that untapping it will not help you get "free" mana.  All Ice Cauldron can do is basically spread the mana cost of something over two turns.

No, it does work how evouga suggests[though it is spend X mana in opponent's end step to get 2X-3 since you need to pay for key both times]...
-activate ice cauldron for X=Y
-in response untap with voltaic key
-activate cauldron for X=0...let this resolve..exile unneeded card [which you can still cast later], cauldron gets 1 counter -- last noted amt is 0, last card exiled is unneeded card
-first cauldron ability resolves--exiled needed card last noted amt is Y cauldron gets another counter for 2 total, last card exiled is needed card

so you can activate it twice with key removing 2 counters and use 2Y mana to cast your desired card..you just need to be sure to exile the right card and make the right choice of X with each activation

EDITED: just realized exiling happens on resolution, not as cost...either way it works just order of exile switches
« Last Edit: December 16, 2015, 02:02:56 pm by bactgudz » Logged
Albarkhane
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« Reply #27 on: December 16, 2015, 04:10:32 pm »

Has anyone watched the feature matches from the "God of Vintage" tournament that took place in Japan?  Uba Stax featureing Bazaars was all over that and this seems like a perfect fit for that deck.

Edit:
Here's what I'm talking about:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVlJc4LjzAY&list=PL-HjF9Jl-4X0cJthRtOUwOHD7tZYiyRrY
Should this go in the reports/results section?

Could be a nice include in that kind of deck but IMHO it would be overkill since uba mask + BoB does the same job for lower mana cost. However it might be worth a try.

Btw, in turn 3 (in the video) landing a strip mine and a ancient tomb in the same turn makes it easier to win Wink
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nedleeds
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« Reply #28 on: December 16, 2015, 05:11:15 pm »

Has anyone watched the feature matches from the "God of Vintage" tournament that took place in Japan?  Uba Stax featureing Bazaars was all over that and this seems like a perfect fit for that deck.

Edit:
Here's what I'm talking about:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVlJc4LjzAY&list=PL-HjF9Jl-4X0cJthRtOUwOHD7tZYiyRrY
Should this go in the reports/results section?

Well playing strip mine, stripping, then bazaaring, then messing around, then playing ancient tomb probably makes the deck a favorite in most matchups. Shops with cheaters exploration in play is a savage opponent.

Edit: should scroll to bottom and refresh the page before posting.
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Aaron Patten
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« Reply #29 on: December 16, 2015, 06:14:27 pm »

Has anyone watched the feature matches from the "God of Vintage" tournament that took place in Japan?  Uba Stax featureing Bazaars was all over that and this seems like a perfect fit for that deck.

Edit:
Here's what I'm talking about:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVlJc4LjzAY&list=PL-HjF9Jl-4X0cJthRtOUwOHD7tZYiyRrY
Should this go in the reports/results section?

Could be a nice include in that kind of deck but IMHO it would be overkill since uba mask + BoB does the same job for lower mana cost. However it might be worth a try.

Btw, in turn 3 (in the video) landing a strip mine and a ancient tomb in the same turn makes it easier to win Wink

Absolutely.  He even took it back into his hand.  I cringed hard at that.  Those videos are actually riddled with similar misplays/missunderstandings/cheating?/idon'tknowhwat.  Still there is some good vintage in that series and it's always good to see more recent decks in action.
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