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Author Topic: New card-draw land  (Read 4363 times)
TheWhiteDragon
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« Reply #30 on: December 16, 2015, 08:57:45 pm »

Drawing a card for 3 mana on a land -- recurrable! -- is busted.  B-U-S-T-E-D.  Sure, the condition is worse than Library of Alexandria, and it costs more, but this thing is still amazing.  I would be surprised if we don't see this card in Shops and even singletons floating around in mono- and two- color decks regularly in the future.


It's 4 mana...the land taps itself.  We already have Jayemdae Tome, Fools Tome, Browse, etc.  All just as easy or harder to remove than a non-basic land.
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fsecco
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« Reply #31 on: December 16, 2015, 09:30:06 pm »

I also don't understand why paying 4 mana to draw a card is that awesome... I'm not a Shops player but the only advantage I see in this over Coercive Portal is that this is uncounterable. But... you have o pay mana every turn AND it can't use Workshop mana...
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gkraigher
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« Reply #32 on: December 16, 2015, 09:31:44 pm »

Quote

It's 4 mana...the land taps itself.  We already have Jayemdae Tome, Fools Tome, Browse, etc.  All just as easy or harder to remove than a non-basic land.

Quote
I also don't understand why paying 4 mana to draw a card is that awesome... I'm not a Shops player but the only advantage I see in this over Coercive Portal is that this is uncounterable. But... you have o pay mana every turn AND it can't use Workshop mana...

Because the card also taps for colorless mana.  I don't see any of those cards mentioned tapping for mana and drawing a card. 

For the record, I have come full circle and love Coercive Portal.  I think the card is underplayed in the current vintage metagame and an absolute silver bullet in the mirror match that has now turned into a hangarback walker durdlefest.  
« Last Edit: December 16, 2015, 11:37:30 pm by gkraigher » Logged
xouman
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« Reply #33 on: December 17, 2015, 05:35:08 am »

I also don't understand why paying 4 mana to draw a card is that awesome... I'm not a Shops player but the only advantage I see in this over Coercive Portal is that this is uncounterable. But... you have o pay mana every turn AND it can't use Workshop mana...
Not to name that only draws if you are hellbent, which isn't always a fact. And since it cannot be paid entirely with color mana or mws, lots of times it would need ancient tomb activation, which can be annoying.

I was going to say it can work nice with metalworker, since you should have enough mana to empty your hand and then continue drawing gas, but after hellbent metalworker is poor.
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MaximumCDawg
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« Reply #34 on: December 17, 2015, 09:39:58 am »

Quote

It's 4 mana...the land taps itself.  We already have Jayemdae Tome, Fools Tome, Browse, etc.  All just as easy or harder to remove than a non-basic land.

Quote
I also don't understand why paying 4 mana to draw a card is that awesome... I'm not a Shops player but the only advantage I see in this over Coercive Portal is that this is uncounterable. But... you have o pay mana every turn AND it can't use Workshop mana...

Because the card also taps for colorless mana.  I don't see any of those cards mentioned tapping for mana and drawing a card. 

Yea, this is the point.  The opportunity cost of playing this land is pretty low.   

Then again,  I still think Desolate Lighthouse is the bees knees, too, so what do I know.
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Aaron Patten
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« Reply #35 on: December 17, 2015, 11:45:35 am »

I see this as the Library of Alexandria for decks that get Hellbent early.  It's sort of like the negative of Library but with a mana cost activation so it's not just straight busted.  It's still a land that taps for mana that will produce continual card advantage under the right conditions.  It's obviously much worse since it costs mana but it seems to me that this card is based heavily on Library.  Being Hellbent is a bit easier than being at exactly 7 cards too even though you don't start the game with those conditions met.  A few dark rituals and duress' will get you there in short order.  I suspect this card is actually quite good and even vintage-worthy. 
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nedleeds
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« Reply #36 on: December 17, 2015, 12:54:56 pm »

People seem convinced Homeward Path is maindeck material as well, I don't, but this is no more narrow than that. Another shell to test this in is affinity shops, decks built around the lower end can get hellbent very fast unless they are land flooded and you can only play so many cradles. Skullclamp or Slate are probably better draw engines there, but in terms of running your hand out affinity can do that very well.
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TheWhiteDragon
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« Reply #37 on: December 17, 2015, 02:09:00 pm »

People seem convinced Homeward Path is maindeck material as well, I don't, but this is no more narrow than that. Another shell to test this in is affinity shops, decks built around the lower end can get hellbent very fast unless they are land flooded and you can only play so many cradles. Skullclamp or Slate are probably better draw engines there, but in terms of running your hand out affinity can do that very well.

Homeward Path is maindeck material in a meta where you expect a lot of Dack.  If you know Dack will be hitting the board at some time, Path is great.  THIS card needs 4 mana to draw a card (if you are hellbent), adds less mana and utility than any other land in the deck, costs a land drop, and can't come online before turn 4 at BEST (you are not going to have 0 cards, +3 nonshop mana, 1 of which NOT being a mox before then in MOST games).  How is this better than playing another factory, tomb, cavern, or whatever in that land slot?  Hell, play Staff of Nin and at least get some extra juice from the card.  Coming into play by turn 2-3, drawing a FREE card a turn no matter your hand size, and pinging for 1 seems a LOT better than what this card can do.

This card is crap.
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gkraigher
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« Reply #38 on: December 17, 2015, 02:35:38 pm »

This card is crap.

I'm gonna hold you to this because you are dead wrong.  

Shops is a great deck that has access to tons of mana, and really doesn't need to draw cards to win the game.  However, once you play all the cards in your hand, and your threats have been neutralized, you sometimes find yourself in a game state where you are 1 for 1 drawing with your opponent.  And shops generally loses in those situations because all the blue decks draw much better.

Insert this card.  It's a land, so now you have a choice to stay in the 18-20 land range or you can elect to go to the 21-24 land range.  If you go higher in the land count, the number of hands you have to mulligan throughout a tournament decreases.  The trade off is power.  Consistency vs. Power, the idea comes up often in Magic.

I've considered playing Library of Alexandria in the sideboard of some MUD decks.  The reasoning was because of how powerful it is on the draw, simply for the 1-2 extra cards you might net from it.  In the end, the idea wasn't good enough for tournament play because it would maybe draw 2 cards for me over the course of a 9 round event.  That isn't worthy of a sideboard slot.  

But Sea Gate Ruins is the exact opposite of Library.  You don't need cards in hand and it helps you cast the cards you already have.  This is precisely what aggressive MUD decks want to do.  They want to play spells and then have the ability to restock if necessary.  

This card is a 8/10 and will be considered a Vintage staple a month after it sees print.  
« Last Edit: December 17, 2015, 07:49:50 pm by gkraigher » Logged
tribet
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« Reply #39 on: December 17, 2015, 05:09:51 pm »

What is really the difference for Shop between Coercive Portal & Bottled Cloister?

I suppose it may suck sometimes when Cloister get destroyed but on the other hand, it does combo better with this new land!
« Last Edit: December 17, 2015, 05:12:24 pm by tribet » Logged
gkraigher
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« Reply #40 on: December 17, 2015, 05:36:35 pm »

What is really the difference for Shop between Coercive Portal & Bottled Cloister?

I suppose it may suck sometimes when Cloister get destroyed...

It sucks all the time.  Firstly, you cannot play the card aggressively because if it gets destroyed you lose all your resources and will probably lose the game.  Why you would want to gamble an entire game on a single permanent is beyone me.  Secondly, If you have multiple coercive portals in play, you get to keep drawing cards and each card you don't  play stays in your hand.  With Bottled Cloister, the cards go to exile as a triggered ability.  Having multiple cloisters, all you have to do is remove the one cloister that exiled the cards and the other one cannot bring them back.  So again, you aren't really getting an advatage.  On every level, Cloister is much worse than Portal, unless your opponent is playing all discard spells.  

Synergy with this land doesn't matter.  Cloister is still strictly worse, and in a big way.  Unless you have some Ensnaring Bridge/Null Brooch/Bottled Cloister package where you are playing off the weakness of Cloister.  
« Last Edit: December 17, 2015, 07:59:12 pm by gkraigher » Logged
serracollector
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« Reply #41 on: December 17, 2015, 07:23:14 pm »

I think this card really synergizes well with Smokestack builds allowing you to find more permanents to throw out.
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fsecco
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« Reply #42 on: December 18, 2015, 10:22:04 am »

I think this card really synergizes well with Smokestack builds allowing you to find more permanents to throw out.
It really doesn't, since you need to spend 4 mana to draw a card every turn, leaving you no mana (or at least way less mana) to actually play the permanents...
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cutlex
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« Reply #43 on: December 18, 2015, 11:05:24 am »

This seems to hit a real sweetspot for shops: either you have a bunch of action in your hand and need mana to dump it onto the board, or you have an empty hand and lots of mana doing nothing. This helps in both cases. It's only matter of whether this marginal utility is greater than the existing options. Regardless, it's an option we didn't really have before.
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serracollector
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« Reply #44 on: December 18, 2015, 11:06:43 am »

Im going on the assumption that since you cant use shop mana for this that you will still have AT LEAST three mana up to cast, well, ninety percent of what you draw? Not to mention drawing a land is not a bad thing either in these scenarios. I full on agree this is a great card for MUD. Im not gonna get in a huge debate on it tho as all cards time will tell.
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Aaron Patten
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« Reply #45 on: December 18, 2015, 01:06:34 pm »

I think it could also be really good in a lot of aggro builds.  Blue already has a lot of good draw that pretty thoroughly overshadows this but non-blue aggro seems like it would really benefit from having a continual source of card advantage from a land.  It's also easier to activate in those builds since they don't play workshop which can't pay the activation cost. 
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