[OGW] Goblin Dark-Dwellers

[fsecco]

Goblin Dark-Dwellers
3RR
Creature - Golbin
Menace

When Goblin Dark-Dwellers enters the battlefield, you may cast target instant or sorcery card with converted mana cost 3 or less from your graveyard without paying its mana cost. If that card would be put into your graveyard this turn, exile it instead.
4/4


Oath of Druids? I think this is strictly better than Snapcaster or Eternal Witness when oathed, but generally worse because it's harder to cast under Grafdigger's Cage...

Also, you must cast the card immediately, which may not be that great. Snap and Witness allow you to choose the best sequencing.

[Protoaddict]

Not sure I see it making too much of a dent in the format because it costs too much if you have to hard cast it for it. There is some potential to create reanimation chains where one casts something like Footsteps of the Goryo or shallow grave to bring this back in to cast a different reanimate, or something like show and tell goblins, recast show and tell, some big dumb thing, but all of these just feel like win-more combos when you could just reanimate a game winner anyway.

[desolutionist]

You could Dread Return it too

[fsecco]

You could Dread Return it too

Is there something Dredge want to cast? maybe Wheel of Fortune?

[rikter]

You could Dread Return it too

Is there something Dredge want to cast? maybe Wheel of Fortune?

I think the only viable target in a dredge deck for this card is cabal therapy, which they would prefer to actually pay the flashback on.

Dread returning this guy just to wheel of fortune seems convoluted to me, since generally speaking that deck should be winning the game outright off a proper dread return target.

[desolutionist]

Well some builds Dread Return Cephalid Sage or Ashen Rider.

This could also play cards such as Living End, correct?

[fsecco]

As far as I know yes, maybe Dread Returning this and then bringing your whole graveyard back would be nice. But dredge creatures are bad... and Golgari Grave-Troll would be a 1/1...

[serracollector]

Seething Song into this and recasting Seething Song is plus two storm and a beat stick to join your Empty Goblin Horde.

[Aaron Patten]

This seems like it was designed to be played in modern living end hypergensis but it is interesting for dredge.  It might not hurt dredge to play living end as a one of. 
I don't really like it much for oath just because the casting cost limit is reduced to just 3 which limits you to mostly y-will.  Yawgmoth's Will is great and all but you're not really gaining much (3 mana) for what it is costing you in the cases where you draw this compared to witness and snap.  I guess it makes it easier for the oath player to defend the y-will for that extra 3 mana but the benefit of playing snap and witness is the cases where thy're in your hand and this guy's cc doesn't like to be drawn by your typical bug oath deck. 

[xouman]

What about something like flash? Momentary Blink / restoration angel / random blink effects?

The problem with this creature is that it has a really high cost. It's a pity because it has an interesting effect f, and it would mean a secondary win condition for some decks

[vaughnbros]

Well some builds Dread Return Cephalid Sage or Ashen Rider.

This could also play cards such as Living End, correct?

Yeah living end and other suspend cards are probably the only cards worth flashing back.  This may be worth looking into.  Living end alone has the potential to tighten up the win con for Dredge substantially.

Edit:
It's worth noting that living end can win through Grafdigger's and containment priest.

[gkraigher]

Well some builds Dread Return Cephalid Sage or Ashen Rider.

This could also play cards such as Living End, correct?

Yeah living end and other suspend cards are probably the only cards worth flashing back.  This may be worth looking into.  Living end alone has the potential to tighten up the win con for Dredge substantially.

Edit:
It's worth noting that living end can win through Grafdigger's and containment priest.

That makes it a good sideboard package, at the very least. 

[Aaron Patten]

Well some builds Dread Return Cephalid Sage or Ashen Rider.

This could also play cards such as Living End, correct?

Yeah living end and other suspend cards are probably the only cards worth flashing back.  This may be worth looking into.  Living end alone has the potential to tighten up the win con for Dredge substantially.

Edit:
It's worth noting that living end can win through Grafdigger's and containment priest.

That makes it a good sideboard package, at the very least.  

How do you get it into play in a dredge shell with the cage down?

[Khahan]

Well some builds Dread Return Cephalid Sage or Ashen Rider.

This could also play cards such as Living End, correct?

Yeah living end and other suspend cards are probably the only cards worth flashing back.  This may be worth looking into.  Living end alone has the potential to tighten up the win con for Dredge substantially.

Edit:
It's worth noting that living end can win through Grafdigger's and containment priest.

I don't think Living End gets thru containment priest. Grafidiggers yes. Priest no.  Relevant card text:
Living End:  Each player exiles all creature cards from his or her graveyard, then sacrifices all creatures he or she controls, then puts all cards he or she exiled this way onto the battlefield.

Containment Priest:
If a nontoken creature would enter the battlefield and it wasn't cast, exile it instead.

Grafdiggers Cage:
Creature cards can't enter the battlefield from graveyards or libraries. Players can't cast cards in graveyards or libraries

Notice the difference in effect of grafdiggers and priest?  One stops cards being cast from graveyards or entering the battlefield from graveyard. Living end does neither of those. The priest though stops any creature not cast from entering the battlefield so it would stop living end from bringing creatures into play since you aren't casting them.


I also don't think Living End is actually a viable target for Goblin Dark Dwellers.  From the card rulings on living end: This has no mana cost, which means it can't be cast with the Replicate ability of Djinn Illuminatus or by somehow giving it Flashback.      I'm pretty sure it has to have a mana cost to be considered having a cmc 3 or under (but this I'm not 100% certain on).

[Aaron Patten]

The reason cascade works with living end is the same reason this guy does.  Cards without casting costs (such as land) have converted mana cost of zero which is less than three.

[theruister]

Well some builds Dread Return Cephalid Sage or Ashen Rider.

This could also play cards such as Living End, correct?

Yeah living end and other suspend cards are probably the only cards worth flashing back.  This may be worth looking into.  Living end alone has the potential to tighten up the win con for Dredge substantially.

Edit:
It's worth noting that living end can win through Grafdigger's and containment priest.

I don't think Living End gets thru containment priest. Grafidiggers yes. Priest no.  Relevant card text:
Living End:  Each player exiles all creature cards from his or her graveyard, then sacrifices all creatures he or she controls, then puts all cards he or she exiled this way onto the battlefield.

Containment Priest:
If a nontoken creature would enter the battlefield and it wasn't cast, exile it instead.

Grafdiggers Cage:
Creature cards can't enter the battlefield from graveyards or libraries. Players can't cast cards in graveyards or libraries

Notice the difference in effect of grafdiggers and priest?  One stops cards being cast from graveyards or entering the battlefield from graveyard. Living end does neither of those. The priest though stops any creature not cast from entering the battlefield so it would stop living end from bringing creatures into play since you aren't casting them.

Living end works when a containment priest is on the battlefield. The containment priest would be sacrificed before the creatures are put from exile onto the battlefield.

[Khahan]

Living end works when a containment priest is on the battlefield. The containment priest would be sacrificed before the creatures are put from exile onto the battlefield.

Good point.

[vaughnbros]

How do you get it into play in a dredge shell with the cage down?

Cast it for its suspend cost.

[gkraigher]

How do you get it into play in a dredge shell with the cage down?

Cast it for its suspend cost.

Yeah that's not a very good strategy after all.  Containment priest still shuts down dread return from bringing this into play, never allowing its come into play ability to trigger.  

It's cool but the living end package doesn't do anything relevant upon further review.  Cage stops the dread return from being cast, the creature from entering the battlefield, and the spell from being cast from the graveyard.  

It would be okay if living end only had suspend 1.

[vaughnbros]

How do you get it into play in a dredge shell with the cage down?

Cast it for its suspend cost.

Yeah that's not a very good strategy after all.  Containment priest still shuts down dread return from bringing this into play, never allowing its come into play ability to trigger.  

It's cool but the living end package doesn't do anything relevant upon further review.  Cage stops the dread return from being cast, the creature from entering the battlefield, and the spell from being cast from the graveyard.  

It would be okay if living end only had suspend 1.

Why is it not a good strategy?  Yes it has suspend 3, but it's game ending.  You return all of your dredgers, ghast, narc, chewers, ect.  That's insane.  Putting your opponent on a 3 turn clock through their hate is huge if it costs 0 design space.

[Aaron Patten]

I think people would already be doing this if it were a good option.  4 mana is a lot to ask of a deck that usually has no hand and very few land.  My question was about how to get the Darkdwellers into play to cast living end from the graveyard. Living End gets around cage this guy does not.  It's all very tautological.  There is Life from the Loam and there are multiple lands that can put creatures back on top of the library whereas there are no cards to get sorceries back directly.  This guy could fit that role but witness can get sorceries back also and doesn't get locked out by cage.  You're still praying to get a green source plus one more though.  If by some miracle you've got three creatures in play already then Dread return on Keranos can kill Priest without needing mana if you've dredged your draw step and have a Bazaar still untapped during your main phase but I this card just can't do anything about cage even if it could be put into play somehow with cage down which is problematic at best.  So I guess If you have the power to kill a priest And you have made sure cage stays off the table Then this guy Could be useful but how is that any different then if you just don't have this guy?  Maybe because Living End puts so much into play in one turn when you've already missed your Narcomoeba triggers and need sac outlets for cabal therapy to trigger bridge?  

This card seems like it has potential and I would say it should be on the watch list for dredge players but I would be surprised if it is to be a game changer unless there's something I'm missing.

Edit: It's probably playable in Modern but I just can't figure how this could make a splash in Vintage.

[vaughnbros]

I think people would already be doing this if it were a good option.  4 mana is a lot to ask of a deck that usually has no hand and very few land.

You'd be surprised how many things are possible with dredge that are already in existence.  A vast majority of dredge decks people play are trying to fight through hate without a plan B.  This is also coming up because this card makes living end relevant in game 1.  4 mana isn't as tough as you may think if you are playing urborg, and the typical priest answer of cabal pit/barbarian ring.

Yes this card doesn't get around cage, but its purpose would be to make living end viable in game 1, which then places living ends in your deck for game 2/3.  I think if I can play a living end the game is likely over from just that alone in game 1.  Of course testing will be needed to confirm this, like does the deck need Kolaghan to provide haste?  How many Bridge from Belows does the deck still need? Does this version want main deck Chewer? Ect.

Building a dredge deck is largely about design space so anything that can help reduce the amount of dedicated win cards you need for game 1 or cards that can help turn some of that win into viable cards post board is great.

I'm not saying definitively this card is good or even playable, but there is a niche it could serve in a dredge build.

[MaximumCDawg]

Hrm... am I the only one alarmed that they printed the most powerful five-drop goblin this side of seige gang commander?   Up till now,  the existence of Lackey and his mentally challenged brother from Zendikar seemed to scare WotC off from high casting cost Goblins that did not have silly drawbacks.

Turn one lackey,  turn two Whisper into this guy?

[gkraigher]

This card certainly makes lackey a lot better and might make warren instigator playable.

I've always loved earwig squad in vintage.  Protection from Blue on pile driver is vintage relevant. 

[xouman]

Hrm... am I the only one alarmed that they printed the most powerful five-drop goblin this side of seige gang commander?   Up till now,  the existence of Lackey and his mentally challenged brother from Zendikar seemed to scare WotC off from high casting cost Goblins that did not have silly drawbacks.

Turn one lackey,  turn two Whisper into this guy?

I suppose that the lack of sorceries and instants from typical goblin decks (tarfire? warren weirding?), plus the increment on creature hate in eternal, makes this goblin less fearsome. Besides, every some time is nice to find a good addition for tribal decks.

[Protoaddict]

Goblins have become so much less viable over the years in eternal formats because it lacks the redundancy that many other decks have gotten. Most scenarios require a turn 1 lackey to have any chance in the game, Aether vial just does not cut it. It would be like if delver just collapsed if it didn't cast a turn one delver. Add to that the frailty of a 1/1 creature and the amount of removal played now compared to back then and it's just not going to be a real deck unless something totally parallel comes out that it can play.

[Aaron Patten]

What if it played full solomoxcrypt and a deeper disruption package?  There is a cavern of souls now and I haven't seen anyone playing goblin since that came out.  Maybe I just missed the report though.

[Chubby Rain]

What if it played full solomoxcrypt and a deeper disruption package?  There is a cavern of souls now and I haven't seen anyone playing goblin since that came out.  Maybe I just missed the report though.

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/vintage-blue-goblins#online

Flashing back Time Walk seems ideal, but this isn't my baby so I don't know if or how I would change the deck to incorporate Mons Goblin Tiago.

[Protoaddict]

You could also flash back timewalk with Snapcaster, a card that does see play and is in the same color, or play eternal witness and have more versatility in selection. Or regrowth. This is way overcosted to do just that.

[xouman]

One small difference is that flashbacking walk with snapcaster nets a 2/1, not a 4/4 with menace. However since snapcaster has flashback and usually would be cheaper, I think it's overall better. But technically is possible that in a new deck this could be a kind of finisher. Probably with one or more colors, and taking profit of walks, bolts, decays, swords, Painful Truths... lots of different possibilities. A new field for adventurers.