TheManaDrain.com
March 21, 2019, 09:53:38 pm *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News:
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: [1]
  Print  
Author Topic: [OGW] Warping Wail  (Read 6920 times)
Winterstar
Basic User
**
Posts: 8



View Profile Email
« on: January 06, 2016, 04:22:43 pm »

Interesting.



Edit: Odd, image doesn't want to embed, linking instead for the moment.

http://www.toplevelpodcast.com/warping-wail/
« Last Edit: January 06, 2016, 04:26:28 pm by Winterstar » Logged
gkraigher
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 705


View Profile
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2016, 04:40:46 pm »

mode 1 is okay but not great, mode 2 is fringe but a nice option, mode 3 is bad.

so it can kill young pyromancer, prodigy jace, dark confidant, and hangarback walker while countering the draw 7s and yawgmoth's will.  Izzet charms also does these things and sees no play.  

The question is, would you play this in your MUD sideboard, and I don't see many compelling reasons to do so. 
Logged
Winterstar
Basic User
**
Posts: 8



View Profile Email
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2016, 04:47:25 pm »

Also kills Kataki. Counters Time Walk, Preordain, Ponder, Omniscience, draw 7's, Yawg's Will, Burning Wish, and Tinker.

Not saying it is an auto include, but it is flexible enough to see sideboard play I imagine.

I've been wrong before.

That said, can't cast it off workshop. But potiential.
Logged
wappla
Basic User
**
Posts: 74


View Profile
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2016, 04:49:14 pm »

You can't cast Izzet Charm off Mana Crypt, Sol Ring, Wasteland, Ancient Tomb, or Cavern of Souls. The decks that might want a card like this play less than eight instants or sorceries and certainly never have the mana to cast Izzet Charm.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2016, 05:02:51 pm by wappla » Logged
Chubby Rain
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 742



View Profile Email
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2016, 04:53:15 pm »

mode 1 is okay but not great, mode 2 is fringe but a nice option, mode 3 is bad.

so it can kill young pyromancer, prodigy jace, dark confidant, and hangarback walker while countering the draw 7s and yawgmoth's will.  Izzet charms also does these things and sees no play.  

The question is, would you play this in your MUD sideboard, and I don't see many compelling reasons to do so. 

Many MUD decks now are running Equipment and a 1/1 holds a Sword just as well as a Golem.
Logged

"Why are we making bad decks? I mean, honestly, what is our reason for doing this?"

"Is this a Vintage deck or a Cube deck?" "Is it sad that you have to ask?"

"Is that a draft deck?" "Why do people keep asking that?"

Random conversations...
xouman
Basic User
**
Posts: 1082


View Profile Email
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2016, 05:02:15 pm »

Add revoker, thalia, deathrite shaman, delver, welder and under fringe circunstances orchard spirits and tokens in general. It's worth noting that it actually exiles them, they are not going to the grave.

Pulverize can also be seen in some sideboards, cabal therapy is gaining popularity, duress/tgz still have some play, demonic tutor of course and above all probably gitaxian probe.

The token is a poor option unless you need to chumblock or need an extra mana for next turn.


Cannot say it would see play, probably not (it reminds me of dimir charm, that sees 0 play), but it's a fine card.
Logged
gkraigher
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 705


View Profile
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2016, 05:21:45 pm »

Those are a substantially larger amount of targets that I origionally saw, but still, don't see the card seeing play. 

Logged
Winterstar
Basic User
**
Posts: 8



View Profile Email
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2016, 05:35:05 pm »

Depends on the meta, I imagine. Some shop lists still run Dismember in the sideboard.

Dismember kills Trygon and Monastery Mentor (hopefully), where this does not. That said, the countering ability might make up for it.
Logged
Wagner
Basic User
**
Posts: 820


View Profile
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2016, 05:44:18 pm »

I do love the fact that this was printed. If it sees even only fringe play, it will add an extra risk/decision to blue mages in the Shop matchup as they will now have to play considering instant removal or sorcery counters.
Logged
cutlex
Basic User
**
Posts: 20


View Profile
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2016, 06:30:16 pm »

This is a first glance analysis from a Shop's perspective.

First mode targets:  Goblin Welder, Kataki, Viashino Heretic, Metalworker, Phyrexian Revoker, Thalia, Stoneforge Mystic, DR Shaman, Gorilla Shaman, Painter's Servant, Baby Jace, Human Delver, Young Pyromancer, Dark Confidant, Porcelain Legionnaire, Vendilion Clique, Notion Thief, Hammer Mage, Fiend Hunter, and 1/1 tokens. These are only the creatures I've personally seen cast in the last couple years, I'm sure there are more. This affects almost every list running creatures, and hits a ton of creatures that Shop decks hate. This mode compares unfavorably to Dismember, which is better in the mirror and has a much larger target list.

Second mode targets: probably the biggest one here is Tinker, but this has a lot of targets in lists that care less about the first mode (Dark Petition, Time Walk, Demonic Tutor, Pulverize, draw 7s). Sorceries shouldn't generally be easy to cast against you in the first place, and it seems unlikely that you would have spare mana to cast this in the event that they are. The only comparable options we currently have are Mental Misstep (for Preordain or other 1cc Sorceries, are there any others?) or Mindbreak Trap (which doesn't typically help against Tinker or Pulverize, two of the more important targets); there just isn't much else in this card pool unless we're looking at things like Null Brooch.

Third mode is interesting: it allows the card to double as a Flash-permanent (which makes it neat to use against Tangle Wire and a live card against Smokestack), giving it some utility in the mirror. It also is a neat chump blocker, preventing Lifelink on Batterskull or Wurmcoil engine. Not sure if the mana acceleration aspect is terribly useful, but it is cheap enough to be castable when mana short and could be nice to hit a big mana finisher if you're stuck at 5 mana perhaps? The appeal of the card is clearly in the first two modes, with this as a bonus.

So I suppose ultimately the closest comparison to this card is Dismember, which is currently seeing a lot of play in Shop sideboards and has previously seen play as 4-ofs in certain lists. That card does a lot of work in the mirror, but is also brought in for other match-ups as utility to hit many of the same problem creatures that Warping Wail would target. It's also useful against Tinker in limited circumstances, such as being used to survive a Blightsteel attack for a lethal counter-swing or to combat trick a Sphinx of the Steel Wind, but offers no benefit against other Sorceries.

TLDR: This is a neat card that has a lot of little applications. I'm not sure if it will see play in any of the existing lists, but it is an easily justified inclusion. If nothing else, it gives Shops players an option we didn't have before.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2016, 07:19:26 pm by cutlex » Logged
jcb193
Basic User
**
Posts: 410


View Profile
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2016, 07:16:24 pm »

I don't think it's that playable, but I LOVE the fact that they are willing to experiment with cards in this space......
Logged
cYnic
Basic User
**
Posts: 18


View Profile
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2016, 07:47:57 pm »

If only this killed 2 power dudes. : (
Logged
gkraigher
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 705


View Profile
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2016, 08:56:12 pm »

I don't think it's that playable, but I LOVE the fact that they are willing to experiment with cards in this space......

Absolutely agree, I have no idea if some of these cards are playable or not, but I'm willing to call this "maximum effort" on wizards part to press the seal.  I'm impressed with this set so far, even if nothing comes from it.  A for effort.
Logged
rikter
Basic User
**
Posts: 139


View Profile Email
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2016, 10:35:28 am »

I'm not a huge fan of it in Vintage, I would still prefer to run Dismember to deal with problem creatures and count on spheres to keep them off their sorceries, especially since this doesn't deal with Mentor. I could maybe see it having some utility in the mirror, but even then it's only going to be better than Dismember against walker and only during a very small window. I guess revoker is also a reasonable target, but ultimately I think that with 2 modes essentially dead in the mirror I would not run this card.

I think this is a card that has a lot more applications in Legacy MUD, it is likely going into my 75 somewhere in that list.

All that said, I think the design on this is pretty sweet. It's nice to have access to a colorless counterspell, even if it's only sorcery targets and I like that they tried.
Logged
MaximumCDawg
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 2172


View Profile
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2016, 10:44:19 am »

I don't think it's that playable, but I LOVE the fact that they are willing to experiment with cards in this space......

Absolutely agree, I have no idea if some of these cards are playable or not, but I'm willing to call this "maximum effort" on wizards part to press the seal.  I'm impressed with this set so far, even if nothing comes from it.  A for effort.

I'm with ya.  I love wacky new designs like this.  A purely colorless counterspell/removal?  Whaaa? 

Speaking of that, have they explained what part of the "color pie" is being moved into colorless?
Logged
gkraigher
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 705


View Profile
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2016, 11:11:28 am »

I think this is a card that has a lot more applications in Legacy MUD, it is likely going into my 75 somewhere in that list.


I could see this.  I think the card has merit in any MUD decklist that doesn't want to run sphere effects (outside of Golem and Trinisphere).  It opens up design for players to cut Sphere of Resistance and Thorn of Amyfest, and play Warping Wail and Mental Misstep. 
Logged
rikter
Basic User
**
Posts: 139


View Profile Email
« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2016, 11:32:57 am »

I don't think it's that playable, but I LOVE the fact that they are willing to experiment with cards in this space......

Absolutely agree, I have no idea if some of these cards are playable or not, but I'm willing to call this "maximum effort" on wizards part to press the seal.  I'm impressed with this set so far, even if nothing comes from it.  A for effort.

I'm with ya.  I love wacky new designs like this.  A purely colorless counterspell/removal?  Whaaa? 

Speaking of that, have they explained what part of the "color pie" is being moved into colorless?

I think that for purely colorless cards, i.e. cards that are cast with only waste mana and/or the old version of colorless mana, the design space is completely open, and they can take from all areas. This card is a great example of that, as it has a counter spell, a removal spell, and a ramp spell all on the same card. I'm sure we have all been in the game long enough to appreciate the most unusual nature of a card like this...the counter draws from blue, the removal draws from red, white, black, and the ramp hits green. Only thing this card is missing is "choose two" haha.

Contrast this with some of the devoid cards that are cast with colored mana. Even though they are colorless, they still have a tendency to stick within the traditional color characteristics associated with the mana colors in their casting cost.

Examples:
the green devoid guys (Eyeless watcher, the 6 drop) in BFZ make tokens that ramp, well within the domain of green
The red devoid guy, nettle sentinel, does damage
Black devoid guys process to force discard, or have sacrifice effects
The new white devoid guy blinks things, a very white effect
The blue devoid guys tap and bounce.
Logged
Montolio
Basic User
**
Posts: 96



View Profile
« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2016, 12:55:58 pm »

I like this card for Shops!

My feeling is the "Exile target creature with power or toughness 1 or less" is quite poor overall compared to Dismember at the extra cost of 2 life.
However it exiles a significant amount of cards that do see play such as Delver, Pyromancer, Dark Confident, Notion Thief, Kataki, Goblin Welder, Thalia, Spirit of the Labyrinth, snapcaster, HBW @1, Ravager and Revoker (was corrected and does his JVP and DRE which is even better).
IMO the current Meta (Modo) isn't seeing alot of these creatures right now as Mentor is overwhelming creature of choice.
 
What Warping Wail doesn't hit is the aforementioned Mentors, LSG (all Shops big Robots), BSC, Ojutai, Trygon and Predator.

Taking all this into consideration I would rather have Dismember when looking at a direct removal comparison in a bubble.

The Counter sorcery spell is pretty awesome addition for Workshops as it is something we have never had before.
At first glance of this feature I thought it rather insignificant until I started working through the amount of Vintage playable Sorcery's.
We have Wheel of Fortune, TimeTwister, Time Walk, Ponder, Preordain, Imperial seal, Demonic tutor, Gitaxian probe, Merchant Scroll, Treasure Cruise, Thoughtcast, Tinker, Yawgmoth's Will, Doomsday, Thoughtsieze, Duress, and SNT.

Wow, I would drool at countering pretty much every single spell just mentioned and watch my opponent either cry or burn a counter spell to stop it. Solid!

The last choice of the 1/1 Eldrazi Scion is pretty poor and the worst of the 3.
However it adds versatility to the card in that it is an instant speed chump blocker (opponent: he has no blockers and is dead with my alpha strike. Opps he has an instant blocker now and can now kill me on the back swing).
As Matt mentioned above you can attach Swords/ Jitte to them which in creature famine it can be back breaking.
If you are also desperate to find that one mana in your deck to pull ahead it could be an emergency ESG (EOT cast it, untap and you have that 4'th mana for LSG).

Warping Wail obviously cannot be cast with Workshop mana and doesn't play nice with Sphere's at all.
If you are a Workshop player and are a fan of the anti-synergy of Dismember and Sphere's in Shops, then this seems like a very reasonable card to break into the line up imo.

Overall I am a fan of the versatility this card brings to Shops and will definitely be testing this thing out.
The best of the 3 abilities is the second because of the uniqueness it brings to a mono colored deck.
Beware all non Workshop players that when you cast that Yawgmoth's Will next time a counterspell may be lurking. hehe.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2016, 01:28:49 pm by Montolio » Logged

I've sparred with Demon's from the Nine Hells I say. I shall barely break a sweat here today!
Twitter handle @TheALPHA7
rikter
Basic User
**
Posts: 139


View Profile Email
« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2016, 01:15:09 pm »


 
What Warping Wail doesn't hit is the aforementioned Mentors, JVP, LSG (all Shops big Robots), BSC, Ojutai, Trygon Predator, and DRS.  



Warping wail hits Jace, Vryn's prodigy and DRS. Warping wail exiles a creature with power OR toughness less than 1. So JVP at power 0 gets wailed, as does DRS at power 1.

Logged
Montolio
Basic User
**
Posts: 96



View Profile
« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2016, 01:25:37 pm »


 
What Warping Wail doesn't hit is the aforementioned Mentors, JVP, LSG (all Shops big Robots), BSC, Ojutai, Trygon Predator, and DRS.  



Warping wail hits Jace, Vryn's prodigy and DRS. Warping wail exiles a creature with power OR toughness less than 1. So JVP at power 0 gets wailed, as does DRS at power 1.



Even better, missed that part.
Logged

I've sparred with Demon's from the Nine Hells I say. I shall barely break a sweat here today!
Twitter handle @TheALPHA7
d0rsal
Basic User
**
Posts: 58


View Profile Email
« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2016, 09:30:19 pm »

looking thru the creatures listed that Warping Wail kills, that see vintage play, i dont believe i saw snapcaster mage mentioned anywhere. 

also, the 3rd mode does more then just create surprise blockers/attackers or make mana, it also exiles bridge from below
Logged

SLIVERS FOR LIFE!  =)
Protoaddict
Basic User
**
Posts: 664



View Profile WWW
« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2016, 09:48:53 pm »

Its funny how the part of this card I question the most is the ability to counter a sorcery. Most of the time sorceries are not the issue for shops because most of the time your opponent really can't afford to sit around and cantrip while you are casting sphere effects, which at 2 mana typically conflict with this card.

The bigger blowout style sorceries are the ones you want to stop, which spheres work well against already. Then add to it that this card is affected in a symmetrical way by your spheres, in that you cannot cheat mana with shops like you do on your artifacts, and I do not see it playing out well.

Sideboard in very specific situations where you can utilize 2-3 modes of it, but other than that I cant see it happening with the way the game is structured right now.
Logged

This is my podcast:

Http://www.fantasticneighborhood.com
Comedy gaming podcast. Listening to it makes you cool.
desolutionist
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 1130



View Profile Email
« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2016, 02:23:56 am »

The second mode of this card actually helps to mitigate Hurkyl's Recall.  The storm game plan vs. Workshops is to build up mana until an end-of-turn Hurkyl's.  Then go off usually with Yawgmoth's Will, Dark Petition, etc. (Sorceries)  If that Sorcery is countered, Storm loses.
Logged

Join the Vintage League!
Tobi
Tournament Organizers
Basic User
**
Posts: 898


Combo-Sau


View Profile
« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2016, 03:42:42 am »

The second mode of this card actually helps to mitigate Hurkyl's Recall.  The storm game plan vs. Workshops is to build up mana until an end-of-turn Hurkyl's.  Then go off usually with Yawgmoth's Will, Dark Petition, etc. (Sorceries)  If that Sorcery is countered, Storm loses.

So you're saying that this card should be used as sideboard option in MUD decks against storm?  Very Happy
Logged

2b || !2b
Protoaddict
Basic User
**
Posts: 664



View Profile WWW
« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2016, 08:24:32 am »

The second mode of this card actually helps to mitigate Hurkyl's Recall.  The storm game plan vs. Workshops is to build up mana until an end-of-turn Hurkyl's.  Then go off usually with Yawgmoth's Will, Dark Petition, etc. (Sorceries)  If that Sorcery is countered, Storm loses.

Hurkyl's Recall is an instant. This counters sorceries. So the likely situation here is that they recall you and leave you with nothing but land EOT. Then on their turn they yawgs will and you counter. You are assuming your one counterspell is going to stop yawgs when they likely have counters they have not cast under your spheres in hand, maybe duress as well? Not going to happen most of the time. I think you may catch one player off guard because hes not used to having to duress before yawgs against shops, but once you get that guy with that you are never going to get him again.
Logged

This is my podcast:

Http://www.fantasticneighborhood.com
Comedy gaming podcast. Listening to it makes you cool.
desolutionist
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 1130



View Profile Email
« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2016, 02:52:08 pm »

Proto, TPS doesn't play FoW anymore and they side Duress out vs. Workshops.  If players "catch on" and leave Duress in post-board, then they're just gonna lose because their deck sucks.  Also, if they have mana to cast Hurkyls then they have mana to cast FoW, so it almost would never be in their hand at that point of the game.

The point is that Shops has a relevant card post-Hurkyl's. It's never had this.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2016, 02:58:00 pm by desolutionist » Logged

Join the Vintage League!
xouman
Basic User
**
Posts: 1082


View Profile Email
« Reply #26 on: January 14, 2016, 08:16:16 am »

The point is that Shops has a relevant card post-Hurkyl's. It's never had this.

While this is totally true, the sideboard only allows 15 cards. If there is a deck hampered by spheres, it is storm. If mud has to play even more sideboard cards against storm, we have a problem. I can only justify that if there is a huge amount of storm decks in metagame, otherwise sb slots should be used for dredge, oath and the mirror
Logged
Pages: [1]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.055 seconds with 21 queries.