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Author Topic: Sideboarding with Workshop Aggro  (Read 2348 times)
Phdelmotte
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« on: January 10, 2016, 01:06:50 pm »

I've recently started playing Workshop Aggro (the Shay/Detwiler/Ochoa list) and am currently working on tuning a sideboard for a completely unknown metagame I'll facing at a tournament in 2 weeks.

A friend of mine is a regular TPS player, so I was considering Mindbreak Trap or Leyline of Sanctity (with a slight preference for the latter, given that it can pull double or even triple duty vs. Oath and, if need be, Belcher).

OTOH, Grafdigger's Cage is also versatile, hosing both Dredge, Oath, Tinker and Tezzeret.

Besides these, I'm also considering at least 2 Dismember vs. Mentor and 2 Crucibles of Worlds for free wins...

Thanks for your advice!
« Last Edit: January 10, 2016, 03:49:12 pm by Phdelmotte » Logged
Prospero
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« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2016, 10:03:24 am »

I've recently started playing Workshop Aggro (the Shay/Detwiler/Ochoa list) and am currently working on tuning a sideboard for a completely unknown metagame I'll facing at a tournament in 2 weeks.

A friend of mine is a regular TPS player, so I was considering Mindbreak Trap or Leyline of Sanctity (with a slight preference for the latter, given that it can pull double or even triple duty vs. Oath and, if need be, Belcher).

OTOH, Grafdigger's Cage is also versatile, hosing both Dredge, Oath, Tinker and Tezzeret.

Besides these, I'm also considering at least 2 Dismember vs. Mentor and 2 Crucibles of Worlds for free wins...

Thanks for your advice!

Frobots is actually originally a deck built by Javier David called Mudhoney.  He seems to call everything some variation of Mudhoney though, so it's not easy to find the first list with it all (though Eric has credited him with the list).  I got my list from Brian Schlossberg, but if we're going to trace this all the way back, we all owe Javier David something. 

When Espresso Stax was being developed, we tried running four Leyline of the Void in addition to two Leyline of Singularity in our sideboard in order to combat Dredge.  With four Serum Powder, we were able to somewhat reliably hit Leylines against Dredge.  It was a lot of hate, and, thankfully, more efficient cards were printed (most notably Grafdigger's Cage). 

One of the (obvious) issues with Leyline is that it's a dead draw unless it's in your opening hand.  If it isn't, it's almost always a brick (unless you have Lotus).  Another consideration is that, unlike Shop Prison lists, Shop Aggro decks are punished more for their mulligans; because you are operating as the tempo deck, you need to put as much pressure on them as fast as possible, which means that if you mulligan too low, you may not hit the cards that you need in order to achieve victory in the window you've been allotted. 

The combination of those two (being punished for mulling too low and not having something like Serum Powder to help smooth out your mulligans) means that I think Leylines are probably not great in Shop Aggro, though are still an option in Shop Prison (which is kind of dead at the moment). 

I played on Saturday, keeping the main the same, and running a different (re: better) sideboard than I ran before:

3 Dismember
2 Tormod's Crypt
4 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Sphere of Resistance
3 Crucible of Worlds
2 Karakas

You miss out on having cards like Porcelain Legionnaire, but having the eighth Sphere is critical right now.  As much as I like Mindbreak Trap and Mental Misstep as free cards (and I did spend some good money to buy German foil playsets of both), I don't think that's where I'd want to go.

I wanted more Crypt effects, but with the amount of Oath in the room, and the diversification of Oath targets, Cage seemed worthwhile. 

Given the success of the Ravager Shop decks, I'd expect the metagame to adjust.  Maybe this means more Ancient Grudges, or Serenity's, or whatever, but something is going to end up happening. 

Good luck with the deck.
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Phdelmotte
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« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2016, 10:15:09 am »

Thank you, Nick. I appreciate your reply.
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madmanmike25
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« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2016, 04:09:48 pm »

I still prefer Relic of Progenitus over Tormod's Crypt.  Maybe I'm just greedy, but the ability to draw a card was always invaluable to me.
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rikter
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« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2016, 04:17:21 pm »

I still prefer Relic of Progenitus over Tormod's Crypt.  Maybe I'm just greedy, but the ability to draw a card was always invaluable to me.

I have something of a preference for Relic as well, just because you can run it out earlier and start chewing away at the 'yard incrementally without having to one shot sac it. The card draw is also nice.

Rich Shay's top 8 champs list from this year featured no crypts and like 3 or 4 relics...Im not in a position to confirm the exact number, but I'm certain it was there.
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Thiim
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« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2016, 05:02:43 am »

I think for an unknown meta, you always start with 4 grafdigger's cage, anything else is just irresponsible. For the reason you mentioned, it takes care of the 2 worst MU for this deck.

then you add some number of GY removal, i prefer Relic of Progenitus, because you draw a card and can eat a card once a turn, the downside is removing your own GY if you have an active crucible, but you can play around this.

You want as many SB cards in the mirror, as the number of spheres in your deck, since they do nothing but make your ravager bigger. Dismembers are very good, specially after all spheres are gone, with Triskelion, i think 2 is enough, another removal can be Duplicant(no life loss, and take anything above 5 toughness)

Wurmcoil is also a card to consider, the lifegain is relevant, and in the mirror its brutal.

My sb, is a little different, because i have maindeck phyrexian metamorph, so i already feel favored in the mirror, haven't seen anyone else play them besides lampalot.
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Will
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« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2016, 02:25:52 pm »

I still prefer Relic of Progenitus over Tormod's Crypt.  Maybe I'm just greedy, but the ability to draw a card was always invaluable to me.

I have something of a preference for Relic as well, just because you can run it out earlier and start chewing away at the 'yard incrementally without having to one shot sac it. The card draw is also nice.

Rich Shay's top 8 champs list from this year featured no crypts and like 3 or 4 relics...Im not in a position to confirm the exact number, but I'm certain it was there.

Rich played 4 Tormod's Crypt and 3 Relic of Progenitus at Champs. This change was made in large part by the persuasive efforts of myself, Craig Berry, Nick Detwiler and Mark Tocco, otherwise he would have been running Cage.

As far as Relic vs. Crypt goes, Relic is significantly worse against Dredge because it costs mana to play and to pop. There are certainly situations in which having Relic can be vastly superior, such as when you are being beaten down by a 2/2 and need to cantrip into something, hands where you have a metric ton of mana, or when they have no graveyard and are trying to slow dredge by discarding to hand size, but for the most part being mana efficient is superior.

With this being said, Relic is better against other decks as a whole because it can be used every turn and your opponent is more likely to be putting 1 card into their graveyard each turn than 20 like Dredge does. Here, the tap ability and cantripping make Relic superior, but I have personally never been a fan of boarding in Relics against a blue deck even if it is dependent upon its graveyard because this is usually at the cost of threat density.
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« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2016, 02:48:20 pm »

I can't pull up LSV's Stax list right now (MTG site seems to be down for a few of the decklists), but I was surprised to see him bring in Leyline of the Void for the mirror.  Was he that short of things to bring in, or have other shops players had success with this?  I know his mana base supports it much more easily than most shops lists, but was curious if anyone else likes this move?
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vaughnbros
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« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2016, 03:05:01 pm »

I can't pull up LSV's Stax list right now (MTG site seems to be down for a few of the decklists), but I was surprised to see him bring in Leyline of the Void for the mirror.  Was he that short of things to bring in, or have other shops players had success with this?  I know his mana base supports it much more easily than most shops lists, but was curious if anyone else likes this move?

I like the move as it shuts down Hangarback Walker, Ravager, and Crucible.  One of LSV's biggest mistakes in the match was was sacrificing the leyline to the stack and then proceeding to lose to a hangarback token and crucible lock.
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jyuj
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« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2016, 01:32:21 pm »

Why not use cage in the board?
« Last Edit: January 22, 2016, 01:43:28 pm by jyuj » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2016, 04:05:16 pm »

I can't pull up LSV's Stax list right now (MTG site seems to be down for a few of the decklists), but I was surprised to see him bring in Leyline of the Void for the mirror.  Was he that short of things to bring in, or have other shops players had success with this?  I know his mana base supports it much more easily than most shops lists, but was curious if anyone else likes this move?

Hey Josh,
LOTV is a strong card in the mirror.
It shuts off CoW from the opponents side so they cannot recur their Wastelands and Strip Mine.
Essentially making one of their best cards useless.
It also has the added bonus of shutting off Ravager's modular effect, Skullclamp and HBW.
I will employ this strategy against other shops decks.

Edit: Sorry Josh didn't see this had already been answered by Vaughnbros
« Last Edit: January 22, 2016, 04:09:51 pm by Montolio » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2016, 04:35:15 pm »

Thanks Andy.  I know you had begrudgingly run Lotv in the past, but I assumed it was mostly for Dredge.  I've seen people bring in Relic or Crypt for the Mirror on occasion, but never thought of Lotv for a mirror match.  Seemed too narrow and too much of a tempo loss for a narrow buffer against LD.  But LSV ran a Tomb of Yawgmoth, which definitely makes it more castable.  I guess the added utility of working against HBW and Modular now (instead of just Crucible) makes it worth the slot.  
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vaughnbros
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« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2016, 08:20:27 pm »

Why not use cage in the board?

Cage is a fine card, but you can't rely on it as your only dredge or oath hate card.  They have too many ways to play around it.  Dredge still accumulates a graveyard, and can use its dredgers.  Oath can still Show and Tell.
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« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2016, 02:16:51 am »

I can't pull up LSV's Stax list right now (MTG site seems to be down for a few of the decklists), but I was surprised to see him bring in Leyline of the Void for the mirror.  Was he that short of things to bring in, or have other shops players had success with this?  I know his mana base supports it much more easily than most shops lists, but was curious if anyone else likes this move?

From 2014 http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=46086.0

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For game two I bring out my spheres, Thorn, Trinisphere and some number of Stacks and Wires for my 4 Leyline of the Voids, the Maze of Ith, the two Wurmcoils, and the Razormane Masticores.

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sideboard the same as before, bringing in Leylines, fatties and Maze of Ith for my Spheres and some number of Smokestacks and Tangle Wires. I was really interested in seeing how Leyline affected this matchup. I figured they were just as dead as spheres in the late game but provided so much advantage in a long, drawn out game like the Espresso mirror, blanking his Crucible (one of his best cards in the mirror) and Buried Ruin seemed a good trade off.

Quote
I sideboard the same as Espresso shops earlier with the addition of Tabernacle. I knew he was much more creature heavy than I was so I brought in the tabernacle in hopes of hitting a Wurmcoild and its tokens.
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