URLandstill vs. UWLandstill

[Enigma]

I've been playing URlandstill for about a month now but have been recently looking into UW mostly because i think the UW build is more interesting. My metagame is mostly extended decks with type 1 cards. The rest is made up of TnT, Keeper, Parfait, Sui, WMUD. So really there are only 5 decks that are cosidered type 1 decks. I'm not really sure which way to go, or doesn't it matter? Help would be appreciated.

[timmy]

which extended decks are they running

more the combo decks or beatdown or control
with the t1 decks
i would go with ur
as it has better sideboard cards
against those matches

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- Toad

[Enigma]

Sorry, i'll clarify on that. The extended decks are the rock, tog, and RDW. Besides the extended decks there are also scrubby beat down decks. There isn't really any combo at all in the area around me. Also what is there any real advantage of UW over UR? I really like swords and degree but i dont know if there worth it.

[timmy]

Swords to Plowshares could come in handy, but with a majority of the decks being beatdown, swords to plowshares is going to be as handy as you think it will be.  Sure it might hit the stray spiritmonger, but the majority of the time you will want fire/ice, either to tap down one large threat or pick off two smaller ones.  Other than that I don't think that white has anything very useful.  Finally fire/ice will never be a dead card like swords to plowshare, it can always just be used as a simple cycle to draw into another card.

[TheRock]

Most of the U/W Landstill decks that I have seen are structured to play fairly different than the U/R cousins.   Two things that I have seen a lot of in U/W Landstill variations run are Cunning Wish and Isochron's Scepter instead of Disks.

I couldn't imagine not having Disk in my maindeck.

Sacred Ground, IMHO, is no better than Trade Routes.  Trade Routes can trade away lands for cards when the deck has problems with mana flood and still nets the same manland invulnerability.  Ground has been getting a lot of positive attention for almost no reason other than the fact that people are looking for a "quick-fix" solution.

I feel that U/R Landstill is better, but that is only from experience and nothing else.  While some white cards look very intriguing, I think that you will be much happier having Bolt and Fire/Ice around for burn and utility (which probably would help you more against RDW and Sligh anyway), and the ability to use Disk to leave MUD and TnT defenseless.

[Moxlotus]

I prefer the red/blue version over the U/W version. Fire/Ice is amazing. Granted it can't take out a Dreadnought, but it can ping 2 goblins/welders/soldier tokens. Fire/Ice is also better at taking down scrubby beatdown decks like elves or something.  And every once in a while, especially against Keeper, the Ice part is really nice (I rhyme-call me Mixin' Moxy, or don't it won't hurt my feelings)

 Also, Rack&Ruin is amazing against any workshop deck. Disenchant takes out only 1 artifact, while for only one more mana R&R takes out 2.  This can be critical to remove both the Dreadnought and Mask(somewhat shoring up the no StP), 2 of TNT's fat, or whatever lock components are on the board. The ability to take out enchantments is negligible.  Enchantments are so 2001.

Decree of Justice is a good finisher, but when you already have control you are going to win anyways with manlands.  Rock will be able to Deed away all of your soldiers.

I don't think I've ever seen a Landstill list that doesn't use Nevy's Disk.  It is an essential part of the deck because it can be a Mana Drain sink into board sweeper.

One more thing about the burn.  It is nice to be able to cheese your opponent out sometimes. If they managed to topdeck Wastes for the past 3 turns, shots to the head can always be a last resort.

[MarkPharaoh]

At Stroudsburg The Encounter, it's metagame is similar to yours and I have chosen to play Ur over Uw mainly for the reasons that have already been provided.  In our type of metagames, I would much rather prefer my Bolts and Fires to Swords.  Bolts nail Pups for 3, deals the final blow to your opponent, among other things.  Fire/Ice is pitchable, nails weenies and taps fatties.  Swords can only do like half of that.  I would only run UW over the Ur version if there are ALOT of mountains where I could just bring in CoP from the board.

[Sodent]

I personaly prefer the U/R version much more than U/W. As everyone has said, Fire/Ice is amazing and its never a dead card. Although white would add some more defense the deck already takes care of that with a Nev's Disk. The only problem I found with the deck is that it's lack of tutor/card advantage. Maybe I'll play test with some wishes and Trade Routes and see how that works out for the deck.

[Raven Fire]

U/R also allows for REB in the sideboard to help against those Keeper and Tog decks.

[Hi-Val]

White seems like it can pair well with Standstill, as it is a very reactionary color. However, despite what it may seem like, Landstill needs to be proactive as soon as the Standstill busts. If you have a hand of Swords, you cannot use them like you can use Lightning Bolts. The deck makes or breaks in the time between Standstills and it must concentrate as much power as it can in the downtimes.

I feel that the main reasons for playing white are Swords To Plowshares, Meddling Mage and Decree of Justice. Swords is very strong. However, Nev's Disk will almost always take care of problem creatures. If not, Chain can bounce it or red can burn it out. Meddling Mage is good in a known meta, but also rolls over to Disk. And finally Decree is just flashy. Sure, cycling under a Standstill is a lot of fun, but it really doesn't do much. You can get a few token soldiers, but why is that better than Fire/Ice or Lightning Bolt damage combined with manland beatdown?

My conclusion is that white, unless you are in fattie aggro metas, is inferior to Red. It lacks the power to dump the hand right after Standstill breaks. With white, you also lose Rack and Ruin and access to Red Elemental Blast on the sideboard. These disrupt the top decks in a way that white cannot.

On a sidenote, I have also found that Standstill in Gro is completely wrong : )

[Dr_Tongue]

Another card that white offers is Balance. It is a bonus against aggro, although, it can hurt your hand size/lands just to rid a few (or alot) creatures.

 Having played against the RU build with my WU, the 8 blast SB comes in handy(Reb/Beb) when playing against control. The 8 blast board is a real nuisance when you limit yourself to WU. The RU is superior in that fact alone , leaving me searching for an answer in white.
 
The only benefit that I've personally gained (for spashing white) was my 2 SB cards I devote to the Dragon match-up.In addition to the Tormod's of course. While Dragon is busy boarding the 4 Xantid Swarms to deal with the Stifle/Swords/permission aspect, it usually leaves the back door open for an Absolute Grace. Bet they didn't see that coming.

[Pern]

However, Nev's Disk will almost always take care of problem creatures. If not, Chain can bounce it or red can burn it out.

Allow me to introduce you to Mr. Troll Ascetic.

The only Landstill to top 8 at Waterbury was a U/w,
featuring more counters,
more guys,
non-basic land recursion,
and better removal,
both for creatures and artifacts/enchantments.
His fetches can get either basic land.
True, he can't side in Red Blasts,
but he already runs three extra counters main,
and he can bring in three Blue Blasts when facing U/r.

KEITH JOHNSON
5th Place

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
2 Decree of Justice
4 Nevinyrral's Disk
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Standstill
3 Stifle
3 Mana Leak
3 Misdirection
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will

1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
2 Flooded Strand
1 Plains
2 Islands
4 Tundra
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Faerie Conclave
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Petrified Field

SB:
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Disenchant
3 Energy Flux
3 Chalice of the Void

Balance would be awful in this deck.
Best case it's a two mana Wrath against Big O,
but that would probably be at the cost of
half your lands and your whole hand.
If you've already Decreed it's a stone dead card.

The benefits of White are Decree, Disenchant, Swords, and on-color fetches.

[Shock Wave]

The only Landstill to top 8 at Waterbury was a U/w,
featuring more counters,
more guys,
non-basic land recursion,
and better removal,
both for creatures and artifacts/enchantments.
His fetches can get either basic land.
True, he can't side in Red Blasts,
but he already runs three extra counters main,
and he can bring in three Blue Blasts when facing U/r.

.. and in no way does that imply that u/w is any better a build. How does a white build, with "superior removal" help against Troll Ascetic? If anything, this deck does a lot worse than u/r against any aggro other than mask.

However, I must say that this u/w is probably the best I've ever seen. The architect gets my respect. There have been a lot of shitty Landstill decks built in the past while and this is by far the best piece of work I've seen. I personally would not play u/w over u/r (unless I felt like playing something different for the hell of it), but if I did, I would play an almost identical build.

[ctthespian]

Thanks for the nod shockwave.  My tournament report will be coming soon about my day in Waterbury and will include more details.  I have to admit that my friend Jarad(Wicketsnatcher) also has hounded me to switch to the UR version as well, though I like the more counter and stronger removal option of my build.  Not to mention that being able to not only cycle a decree under standstill, but cast angels after a big mana drain is incredible.  Having 1 or 2 4/4 angels vs the UR landstill was incredibly strong.

I've yet to test this version vs the Oshawa variants, but I think that swords and decree may make it a better matchp that the UR as well.  When I played this in Hadley the week prior to Waterbury, I forgot to add disenchants to the board to take care of things like Null Rod and B2B.  That cost me games.

After more extensive testing with this build I'll let you know more.  So far I've run this in three tournaments or varying sizes.  I made Top 8 in Hadley (20+ people), 5th in Waterbury (119 people) and 2nd in a limited swiss tournament (12 people)

-Keith

[Pern]

My Troll Ascetic comment was a response to the quote,
and unrelated to the decklist following.

Although I'd have to say,
Decree tokens can chump Trolls while Conclaves go over,
and Swords beats hell out of Fire or Bolt against Mongrels and Wurms.

Anyway, I agree, this is a brilliant build of U/w.
I'm looking forward to the tourney report.
I'd side very differently, but that's a personal thing.

Main I'd pull a Waste for a Dustbowl.
I'd try Miscalculate over Mana Leak,
trusting the research Moobius did for his Snakes deck.
He ran Miscalc, and kept score when he had it in hand,
asking "would Leak have countered something this couldn't?"
vs how many cards he cycled it for when both would have been dead.
He found that the extra countering power of Leak was insignificant,
and the cycling drew a lot of cards.

What do you think about Keith's Pearl over Lotus Petal?
Both help with turn one Standstill.
Petal can get you turn one Drain online,
but can leave you mana stranded.

[Shock Wave]

Although I'd have to say,
Decree tokens can chump Trolls while Conclaves go over,
and Swords beats hell out of Fire or Bolt against Mongrels and Wurms.

Well, if you're chumping, what you're chumping with is almost always irrelevant. You're not in good shape regardless of what is biting the dust. The problem with STP is that while it is great against Dragon, it is only a 1/1 trade against every other creature. It only *really* shines against Mask, where you may sometimes absolutely need to remove dreadnaught ASAP. Fire/Ice is *generally* better removal, which makes U/R Landstill generally a better deck. By "generally" I mean that U/W outshines U/R only in specific metagames, but I don't think a metagame comprised of Oshawa Stompy is one of them. It is not a good match-up for U/W Landstill, especially this build which runs no bounce spells (ie. resolved Null Rod = thanks for coming out). Sure, DoJ will own the Landstill mirror, but it is otherwise a very superfluous commodity. I would actually cut the DoJ for more answers.

What do you think about Keith's Pearl over Lotus Petal?
Both help with turn one Standstill.
Petal can get you turn one Drain online,
but can leave you mana stranded.

This is an interesting point for discussion. I actually think that in this build, the Mox Pearl might be a little better because of the Mana Leaks. Land, Petal, Leak is a rather weak play. However, I think the manabase in this deck needs some work. The Petrified Field definitely has to go, in exchange for another U or U/W mana source. I would try an Adarkar Wastes, or a Dust Bowl (although I really don't like this card in Landstill).

With respect to the sideboard, I don't think I'd change anything (maybe 1 or two cards). I was very impressed with the choice of cards. Considering the nature of u/w control, the sideboard has all the necessary elements to fight even the most problematic of matchups. The build and the sideboard reflect a strong insight into the weakness of u/w control decks (not just Landstill) and a very clear, efficient attempt to shore up these weaknesses.

[Pern]

@Keith -

Good report.
I'd like to hear more about how you sided.
It was interesting seeing Chalice against Keeper.

How happy were you with the Petrified Field?
It looks like one more manland,
one more Strip Mine,
one more basic,
and one more Library,
all in a tidy package.
Did it ever mess you up?

[TheRock]

Petrified Field is a second Library that can untap a manland to block.  The fact that it is taking the place of, for example, an Island, means that being able to generate blue mana is not an advantage.

Field is only as good as the nonbasics that are already on the table, should they happen to stay there.

[ctthespian]

I believe that my keeper sideboarding was:
-3STP
+3 COTV.  

I may also have done:
-1 more STP -1 stifle (-1 mana leak )
+2(3) disenchant

The Petrified Field was a help in the tournament if anything.  I was able to sacrifice my factory on a couple occasions to remove an opponents critter, knowong that I'd have it back on the board next turn.  The only time I saw it be a problem was in playtesting and only once when I was land screwed a bit.  There I lost 1 turn trying to replay a Tundra that was wasted.

-Keith

[BreathWeapon]

For me, U/W Landstill has always been a metagame preferance vs Mask and Madness coupled with an excessive amount of Dragon/Rector players, my meta is hella powered and hella random. U/w is only going to be the proper metagame choice against a meta full of FAT Aggro and non-TPS combo. U/r just has better SB options than U/w which is more pertinant than having a stronger MD, IMO.

The version I like to run is ShockWave's list with the following changes,

-4 Fire/Ice
-4 Lightning Bolt
-1 Misdirection

+4 Swords to Plowshares
+4 Impulse
+1 Balance (MVP)

and a higher Fetch count.

I went for Impulse over additional counters, because I think its more flexible in the late game and Mana Leak is wanting without Moxen. The deck has always needed a way to pull itself together IMO, and Impulse fits the bill better than anything else i've tried so far.

That SB for U/w looks really strong, tho' I think Decree is probably better left in the SB maybe?

[Pern]

Balance?
Really?
Don't you generally have a bigger hand and more lands than anybody?
Granted, a two mana Wrath doesn't suck,
but I'm not so keen on losing five lands and six cards at the same time.
What were the situations that made it MVP?

I wrecked a couple of people last Friday in Hadley
with a random Serenity in the board.
It was especially tasty when played the same turn as Time Walk.
I always wanted to make it work in Preacher's Field,
but the clash with Replenish was insurmountable.
It's amazing in Landstill.
It is often exactly the same as Nevinyrral's Disk for half the mana.
You can even Chain Of Vapor it in response, same as Disk.

My two sideboarded Acid Rains were downright abusive against the random Elf deck.

I tried Miscalculation where Keith ran Mana Leak.
It was only four matches, but the results were interesting.
As it happened, there was no time when I was holding Miscalc
that either Miscalc or Leak would have countered something.
Miscalc cycled a few times, which was OK, but not good enough.
I think I'm going to bring back a Chain Of Vapor or two in that slot.
I'm also considering a Teferi's Response and a Counterspell Classic.

I think Chain of Vapor will be critical once Darksteel goes live.
Do you have an answer to a simple early Darksteel Reactor?

I ran a Teferi's Response in the place of one of Keith's Decrees.
I liked having one Decree, but I think two is too many.
The change from Fire/Ice to Swords To Plowshares reduces the blue card count a lot,
which is critical with seven pitch counters.

[BreathWeapon]

Well, my thoughts on Balance are:

If its a dead card, than i'm probably winning anyway.

It clears the board of Decree Tokens Cycled under a Standstill and maintains card parody, if it resolves. Risky as all hell, but what else can you really do?

There are times i'd trade my entire hand and several land for a single Wrath of God vs TnT.

Standstill can almost always bounce back from an even board position against another control deck better than they can bounce back vs you. You have a higher Land Count, larger Threat Density and a better Draw Engine than Keeper or Tog in the Control Mirror. Whenever you Balance the board vs Keeper and resolve a Standstill the next turn, you just gained the upper hand from an inferior position.

I guess its really just a matter of taste more than anything else. If you don't see a lot of Aggro it probably isn't worth the slot. Even still, its the most broken card in all of Magic and almost always returns you to fighting chances from lost positions. Even if it is dead more often than not, the games that it isn't dead in are often the difference between the Top 8 and going home.

[Shock Wave]

Wow... lots of good food for thought in this thread right now.

@ Pernicious Dude: You've mentioned some interesting ideas with Serenity and such, although they seem to be more metagame calls than significant technical additions. Props for the Acid Rain, that's a great hoser for all the green Landstill hate in a lot of metas right now.

Breath Weapon is spot on with his explanation of why Balance is indeed a strong inclusion. The argument that your lands go down the tube is correct in observation, but incorrect in overall reasoning. Landstill will run more lands than the opponent, and thus you'll be able to recover more quickly. Even if you have to sacrifice land, that's ok. You keep your manlands and go to town while they pray for removal.

It's not even important to start listing other scenarios where Balance rocks the board. Opponent resolves Ancestral, Will, etc. Sometimes, you'll be fortunate enough to Balance after your opponent has gained a seemingly hopeless advantage. There are countless other scenarios too, as we all know.

Keep up the good discussion.

[cssamerican]

I am probably going to get flamed, but I got to say this. Very rarely have I ever been out controlled when I was playing Landstill, so I do not find Balance as a needed card in the control match-up. However, the merits of having a non-regeneration board sweeper in the deck against O. Stompy or similar decks is clearly a nice ability. But in those cases Balance might remove the threats, but it also has a tendency to rape your hand and lands. This can result in a top decked Troll Ascetic coming into play, and suddenly Balancing the board looks kinda weak. Since it would be very rare to cast Balance on turns 1 or 2  (If your hand was that weak you probably should have mulliganed anyway) wouldn’t a Wrath of God be a better card? It keeps your hand in the superior position like it should be and does not affect your win conditions while removing the same problem permanents as Balance.
Edit: If Wrath of God is effective I could see a reason to play UWLandstill over URLandstill because the match-ups with anti-landstill decks like O. Stompy would be improved along with the Mask match-up. But without cards to significatly improve match-ups I can't see any reasons to run white over red. Am I missing something???

[MarkPharaoh]

You won't ALWAYS outcounter other control decks, I know I don't with my Ur version.  

Balance is better then Wrath of God for a few reasons.  Against aggro, I find it a bit hard to keep a full hand mainly because you can't always drop that turn 2 Standstill if the aggro player gets a fast start.  Against good aggro decks like TnT my resources get depleited pretty quickly and I would rarely have a hand greater then four.  This deck is also pretty heavy on using mana to activate manlands and play Disks so the 1W is a lot more desireable then 2WW.

[cssamerican]

MarkPharaoh: I never said you never get out controlled, just that I don't think Balance is necessary since most of the time you are the better control deck. And because of this, it is rare that another deck out controls you in such a dominating fashion that you say to yourself "If I only had Balance!” Plus I also think people need to realize there are no tutors in this deck, so it is not like you can call up Balance with any type of regularity when you would need it. And saying 4 mana uses up to many of your lands for a turn is a weak argument, since when you cast Balance you will use up 2 lands on your turn to cast it, and probably lose more than 2 lands for the entire game when it resolves. The only argument about casting requirements that can be made in my mind is the double white requirement, and that might very well be enough to make Wrath of God unplayable. But right now what makes white better than red as the secondary color in Landstill? All I am saying is to justify running UW it would seem that you have to improve your ability to win games that otherwise are difficult matches for UR. If the casting cost is not crippling I could see Wrath of God, at least post sideboard, being a good way to combat a deck with regenerating creatures and Null Rods. And if you can improve your worst match up by running white then maybe it becomes worthwhile.

[BreathWeapon]

I'll answer that question.

1st, The only reason to run U/w Landstill is for Swords to Plowshares and Balance MD. This greatly improves one match up that U/r Landstill just can't win, Mask.dec.

2nd, Swords improves your match ups vs quality Aggro decks. I'm not talking about little Timmy and his Suicide deck, Lightning Bolt just owns budget Aggro. No, i'm talking about decks like TnT and Madness with 4 to 6 toughness creatures that force you to play 2 or even 3 for 1's against their threats by combining multiple Lightning Bolts or Fire/Ices + Chumped Man Lands etc. Against quality Aggro decks, STP is simply superior in all ways to Lightning Bolt and Fire/Ice and just as good against budget, IMO. Aggro-Control, GAT or HULK, is a much better match up for the deck. Lightning Bolt and Fire/Ice don't do anything vs a Tog wall against your Man Lands and Disk is almost ALWAYS Duressed. I would even make a case for STP improving the ReAnimator match up, but that would probably be pushing it too far lol.

3rd, Swords also improves your winning percentages vs Dragon and Rector Trix. While Landstill may already have a respectible win percentage vs these decks, having 4 additional counters to both Dragon and Rector MD will turn Landstill from a deck with a solid win percentage vs Combo into a deck that turns Combo into a free win. The obvious exception is TPS or Long, but U/w or U/r doesn't make mutch of a difference in these match ups.

4th, Balance is the shiznot. Don't think of it as a random top deck, but Disk # 5 for 1W. If I had a nickle for all of the games i've stolen vs Aggro with this card, well ... i'd have a lot of nickles. A point a lot of people seem to be missing about Landstill is, it will NOT always out counter the other Control player. This is certainly true of U/w without REB, and further justifies the use of Balance.

5th, despite the fact that Lightning Bolt can deal damage to a Control player (Its never *Dead*) I don't think I have ever won a game by burning my opponent that I couldn't win a few turns later with Man Lands. I consider them to be just as dead vs Control as STP, but its purely speculative at best.

6th, U/w can ditch Fire/Ice for Impulse. This effectively increases the amount of removal in your deck by decreasing the time interval between STPs and Disks. It also helps string together your Counter Magic and Draw Engine, which I think has become necessary for this deck's consistancy.

[cssamerican]

BreathWeapon:
1st I agree that Swords to Plowshares improves the Spoils-Mask match-up, eventhough Rack and Ruin post sideboard is pretty damn good. However, against Ninja Mask losing Fire/Ice will hurt you as much as Swords to Plowshares help you and you lose the ability to side in Rack and Ruin. So I don’t think that match-up is improved like some of you may think. (The primary deck I play is Ninja Mask so I am speaking from the other side of the table.)

2nd Against TnT Lightning Bolt handles Juggernaughts just fine, now once you have replaced Bolts with Plows you can remove Su-Chi and other fat as well. This is an improvement; however, you drop Fire/Ice for Impulse, which makes Goblin Welders harder to deal with, and you lose the ability to run Rack and Ruin, this is a downgrade. So, this is another match-up that is not necessarily improved. You totally correct about Madness; however, Oshawa Stompy is only slightly improved and still is nowhere nere in your favor. The Hulk initial match-up maybe slightly improved; however, post sideboard I would consider Red Elemental Blast to be superior to Plows. GAT you might have an advantage simply because REBs can’t hit Dryads, so I’ll give you this one although something tells me REB’s would be pretty good in this match-up as well.

3rd I totally agree on this. Similar results could be obtained by running Chain of Vapor, but it is a relatively weak card in a metagame that you expect to see a good amount of Aggro. Against a competent Rector player Plows are completely dead, at least Bolts might make them stall with bad draws and Chain of Vapor can bounce Illusions in response to Donate.

4th This I kind of agree with you. Yes, you can steal games against Aggro just because it has a Disk like effect. Yes, you can't always out control someone, but what would you rather have one Balance or three to four REBs?

5th I question this simply because you never now when something can happen like laying a Tog and casting Time Walk and smashing your face. Like you said you can't always win the control match-ups, so it is always better to cast Bolts at someone's dome and win a couple of turns earlier, than holding two or three Plows waiting for them to play a threat only to get out controlled and your face smashed in.

6th While Impulse may allow you to dig for what you want, that is two mana that is not doing anything. That means that is two mana that can't be used to activate a man land, that is two mana that can not be used to hold open for a Mana Drain, that is two mana that can't be used to cast what ever you dug for. Keep in mind Impulse can only be used to dig 4 cards deep and put one card in your hand that's it. Fire/Ice can dig one card deep and at the same time tap a creature, land, or artifact. Then if you need it to be a burn spell it can be that too. So if someone resolves a Goblin Welder, with Fire/Ice I will spend two mana to remove it, and do one point of damage to my opponents head. With Impulse I will spend two mana to get a Plow, then one mana to cast a Plow and then my opponent will gain one point of life.

So after going through this the only match-ups that UW seems strictly superior to UR and is a weak match for UR is Spoils Mask(Rarely played), Madness and possibly GAT(Have no experience in this match-up). However, it is weaker in pretty much all control match-up because it loses REBs, and it is weaker against most artifact decks because it loses Rack and Ruin. Unless your meta is nothing but Spoils Mask and Madness with some Dragon combo decks thrown in, I can’t see why you would play white over red. And if your meta looks like this there are probably a lot more than one Oshawa Stompy deck floating around who is going to beat you anyway. So, unless you can beat it you are wasting your time splashing white. But that is just my opinion.

[BreathWeapon]

I agree with you for the most part, U/w is a very specific metagame call. However, Rack and Ruin isn't as good as people would think it is vs Mask and TnT FAT. This deck has almost no acceleration what so ever, which makes 2R a practical pipe dream vs Mask/TnT with a full compliment of Strip/Wastes. I'd rather have a 1cc answer vs these decks than a 3cc answer given the speed of thier clocks. I'm not sure how Shock Wave feels about R&R, so hopefuly he will chime in.

Also, I really disagree with your opinion on Impulse. It never takes the place of a Manadrain ever, its an Instant and 1U played EOT. If your in a position where you can afford to pump mana into Man Lands, then you should already have everything you need on the board and in hand to begin attacking, Impulse or Fire/Ice is irrelevant under a Standstill or after a Disk. Actually, Impulse is what allows your Man Lands to attack, because its what finds Standstills and Disks to clear the road for offensive maneuvers. Impulsing into a Plow vs FAT or a Disk vs Swarm wins games. Impulsing into a Standstill wins games vs Control. The deck badly needs a card to bring the deck together, Cycling Fire/Ice doesn't cut it.

Edit: Did you forget about Triskelion, Karn, Masticore and Platinum Angel in TnT?

[cssamerican]

Ok I concede Impulse is not as bad as I first thought it was. And no I didn't forget about them

Against TnT Lightning Bolt handles Juggernaughts just fine, now once you have replaced Bolts with Plows you can remove Su-Chi and other fat as well. This is an improvement; however, you drop Fire/Ice for Impulse, which makes Goblin Welders harder to deal with, and you lose the ability to run Rack and Ruin, this is a downgrade.

I too would like here some of Shokwave's opinions especially about the loss of REBS and Rack and Ruin.