[Deck] Long.dec

[drg`]

Hi,

I've been working independently and with Kaervimon on this deck for a few weeks now.  My version is fairly different than his.  Most notably we disagree on the relevance of Elvish Spirit Guild and Chromatic Sphere.  I find that Elvish Spirit Guild helps the consistency of the deck as well as speeds it up and allows you to save Black and Blue mana for the spells that matter.  I also don't run Chromatic Sphere as the deck is now black based and not red based due to the Burning Wish to Death Wish shift.  Chromatic Sphere does little more than eat up a mana to draw a card in this version.  If you pace yourself with ESG's you rarely find color selection a issue.  Here are the results for my variation of the deck through goldfish testing.

Turn 1
3 Times
Turn 2
4 Times
Turn 3
1 Time

I will run more testing and post further results in the future as Kaervimon will with his build.  Here is the version I'm currently playing.  Note that there is no Sideboard as I am not finished working on it yet.  This deck is still in the preliminary stages of growth thus it is open to improvement.  It is about as consistent as the older version of long, even with the extremely important loss of Lions Eye.  

// Long.dec
// 0cc
1 Black Lotus
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Diamond
// 1cc
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
// 2cc
2 Cabal Ritual
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Burning Wish
1 Time Walk
// 3cc
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Death Wish
1 Necropotence
1 Timetwister
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Windfall
1 Tinker
// 4cc
1 Tendrils of Agony
// 5cc
1 Memory Jar
// 6cc
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Mind's Desire
// Land
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
2 Glimmervoid
1 Tolarian Academy

The build is fairly strait forward if you understand other variants of long.dec.  It plays basically the same way except that it uses ESG x4 and Cabal Ritual x2 in place of Lions Eye Diamond x3.

Thanks for reading, questions / comments welcome.

Mike

[Willforce]

i think that is better to have something to protect you like Duress instead of Elvish spirite Guide, even if they are a mana speed.

only 4 swarm (fire\ice rulez) are a too small defense.

[drg`]

Elvish Spirit Guild arn't there to protect me.  Xantid Swarm is.  Elvish Spirit Guild is essentially 4 Green Lotus Petals that aren't Willable.  

Swarm is used as a defensive mechanism verses control as once it swings it ignores future Force of Wills / Mana Drains / Stifle / Etc. drawn off draw 7's.  Yes its deal able with creature removal, but keeper just plays 4 (2 Swords, 1 Balance, 1 Fire / Ice) and Tog plays none main deck sans Deed which is clearly to slow.  

Mike

[Willforce]

i think there is a different metagame.

in my meta atog plays 1\2 fire ice and scepter to imprint on.

keeper plays a lot of solution.

even i think that a FOW on your swarm make u in difficult time.

[drg`]

Duress / Xantid are interchangeable, it's a metagame call.  The thing is your meta is weird.  Tog w/ Scepter and Fire / Ice isn't optimal.  Removal in tog has always been a   to me.  It just isn't needed in T1.  Maybe 1 Deed main but that's about it.  Tog is creature removal.  Scepter is also bad in Tog but whatever.  Keeper only run 4-5 Removal.  But this isn't about other decks, its about making Long better.  This is a attempt at a build for a optimal meta.  

Thoughts anyone?

[xrizzo]

Here I am a big fan of swarm.  The duress is only more effective against an aggro deck without access to counters.  (which you will handely beat anyway)

Drop the swarm turn 1 when you cant go off anyway, and you are set for the rest of the game.  If they waste resources to kill the swarm, and have enough resources to stop you from going off, then perhaps you were going to lose the game even if you had duress.

[Methuselahn]

How has Cabal Ritual been working out for you?  Is it worth the 1 mana gain without threshold?  And with that, how often do you get the threshold bonus??

Spirit Guide and Xantid are obviously good together.  Duress just seems like the natural choice given the Death Wishes and Cabal Rituals.  What about Spoils of the Vault into a Death Wish?  Have you also tried Diminishing Returns?

[drg`]

@xrizzo
I echo your feelings on Swarm.

@ Methuselahn
I once thought that Cabal Ritual was a replacement for Lions Eye Diamond, and in some ways it is.  However Elvish Spirit Guild is more of a speed replacement.  Cabal rarely gets you more than 3 mana as you often don't cast more than 1 draw 7 if any at all.  Also you rarely hit threshold so its just a +1 mana swing much like Elvish Spirit Guild.  It however is useful like Lions Eye's Diamond was in regards to being Willable while Elvish Spirit Guild isn't as its removed from the game upon use.  I find 2 to be the right number of Cabal Rituals though you could make a case for 3.

I don't so much cast Xantid with ESG as much as I just use it as a way to max out my UUU or BBB mana off Lions / Lotus / Academy / Ritual x6.  I have enough green sources without Spirit Guild to cast Swarm every game (10 Lands, Mox Diamond,  Mox Emerald, Lotus Petal, 4 Spirit Guild 1 Black Lotus +/- 1 Lions Eye Diamond).  

I'm just not sure on Spoil's being needed or worth it.  Yes it can get Death Wish without a huge amount of pain, however it can easily backfire on you also.  Its just to much of a risk that could leave you in bolt range or close to it.  For example you spoils for 12 and then Death Wish down to 3 life and you get bolted.   Its just to mathematically probable for me.  That and you have enough Draw / Tutors any ways.

I'm also considering various cards though I just don't have room right now.
1. Fastbond
Just lets you produce more 5c lands while going off.

2. Crop Rotation
Lets you lay a land this turn and tutor for a Academy

3. Abeyance / Orim's Chant
The 5th Swarm so to Speak

4. Channel
Just a a colorless mana producer to further maximize your blue and black mana.

And some other stuff, but more on that later.

Thanks for replying, keep the comments coming.
Mike

[Dr. Sylvan]

1. Mox Diamond with 11 land? Is that consistent?
2. I think Kaervimon switched out the Glimmervoids; what was your reasoning for retaining them? Swarms?

[drg`]

Mox Diamond
I find that turn 1 you often have a non Academy land to pitch with it.  It also allows you to draw into a land later on and play it.  Every now and then its a issue like 15-33% at most in my various experience with this and older long variants.  It is also a great card to draw into off a draw 7, as you usually get 1-2 lands that way.  Combine this with the fact that you often laid a land this turn and its a valuable asset.  It just makes your mana base smother.  Its won me more games than its lost me for sure.

Glimmervoid
I just think his 9th + 10th land are horrid.  Glimmer is fine in my testing out of 30 games in real life / apprentice I get its only been bad once, and even then I just cast it and used it on turn 2 and won the game that turn.  The key part is it dies and the end of the turn, and you have a pile of artifacts to support it.  

Mike

[Ridiculous Hat]

Firstly, have you tried Chrome Mox over Mox Diamond?  I've tried them both and I must say Chrome is much better.  It's much more likely that you'll have excess spells than excess lands, I've found.

Chromatic Sphere has also been magnificent with LED and the Mirage tutors, not to mention mana fixing in the middle of going off.  I originally wasn't sold but now I wouldn't cut them for anything.

Swarms are very nice and I think they're strictly better than Duress, but you may want to run a couple Force of Wills.  Long is not quite as explosive as it used to be so you want to make sure that you can back up the piece you have with the mana you've spent-- and Force of Will is not only free, but a surprise as well.  In the new builds I think you want more than 4 disruption slots-- and Xantid Swarms do well in the sideboard considering you have Death Wishes.  But that's just me.

[drg`]

Actually I had and liked Chrome Mox, I just cut it for a Cabal Ritual spot.  I might find a way for it to be included again.  Maybe over Elvish Spirit Guild?  Its worth considering.  

I just find that Chromatic Sphere isn't needed since you went from needing red mana to resolve wish to needing black mana to resolve wish.  Your 6 Ritual's 1 Lotus 1 Lions Eye help make your black mana fine.  In all my games I just didn't need it to kill you.  I was also very close mana wise in about half of them from not going off.  The one mana extra that you have to commit to Chromatic Sphere can cost you a game as often as it can win you one.  Also Elvish Spirit Guilds help fill out your colorless mana requirements nicely.  Try out the new list.  It plays similar to the old one but has a new learning curve associated with it.  

The problem with running to much disruption, i.e. 4 Swarms + 1-4 Duress / Force of Wills / Etc. is that it slows down the streamline engine of the deck.  You have a myriad of must counter spells in this deck from Draw 7's to Swarms to Necro to Bargain to outright uncountable spells in Minds Desire / Trendles sans Stifle like cards.  I just find that any more disruption takes away from the efficiency of this deck.  My version is all about speed and consistency.  You could always sideboard a Force of Will or Abeyance sideboard if you wanted though since you can Death Wish for anything.  Most of the time you just won't need it.

Mike

[JuJu]

I don't know alot about Long.Dec, I've played against it alot while it was dominant and had to test against it for all my cooky ideas. But 1 thing that I know a bit about is Duress and Xantid Swarm. I didn't like Duress in Keeper for obvious reasons, first because it is proactive and not reactive like Keeper should be. I played Xantid and Duress in Dragon and together they were pretty good but Xantid had a much larger effect. Now I'm playing Hulk with Duresses main and Xantids in the sb. I don't like Duress in the deck though because it has a minimal affect nowadays, especially when compared to Xantid, thinking of it now Xantid could even replace Duress, I will have to test though. To keep with the deck I would like to say that being a control player, I would much more fear Xantid then Duress, because Duress is a threat and not a bomb, while Xantid is both at the same time.

Please choose a new avatar. I don't like to see posts that LOOK like they're mine but start with: '...I don't know alot about Long.Dec'.

- Kaervimon

[drg`]

That's basically what I stated about Xantid so far.  

Does anyone have any comments on improving the deck as well as sideboard considerations or the like?  

Mike

[rvs]

Glimmervoid is actually quite horrible when you start sideboarding against workshop-based decks.

[Wollblad]

I agree that ESG is a good choice since they help you to get mana even when there is a Chalice of the Void in play. Chalice and also Sphere of Resistance are my big concerns when I look at this deck. Swarm might be good, but they can do nothing against neiter Chalice nor Sphere. Null Rod is also a severe speed bump for this deck. As long as Lion's Eye Diamond is included I personally don't consider FoW as an option, but is Death Wish and one Burning Wish, enough to be able to respond to the cards mentionend above?

Another question is how you have experienced Demonic Consultation now when you don't have Burning Wish and Lion's Eye Diamond to tutor for. I guess that you can tutor for Death Wish, but is it stable with only three of them in the deck?

Personally, I havn't played long.dec after the restrictions, but already then I felt that the deck had very much mana and a little too few business spells. In your build, there are 33 cards that produces mana. Thats the same amount or even one more than was used in the old long.dec, but it felt OK thanks to Chromatic Sphere that actually replaced itself. Isn't it possible to remove perhaps one ESG? That place could be filled with the last Death Wish (making it more stable to consult for) or a Duress for added disruption.

[Nehptis]

Core card list - 41 cards

(Note: Core cards are only ones that are agreed on to be an exact number.  i.e. if one person says 4 Brainstorms and another says 3 then it is not a core card.)

// 0cc - 10
1 Black Lotus
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Diamond
// 1cc - 10
4 Dark Ritual
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Crop Rotation
// 2cc - 3
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Burning Wish
1 Time Walk
// 3cc - 5
1 Necropotence
1 Timetwister
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Windfall
1 Tinker
// 4cc - 1
1 Tendrils of Agony
// 5cc - 1
1 Memory Jar
// 6cc - 2
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Mind's Desire
// Land - 9
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
1 Tolarian Academy

[Nehptis]

Now, I'd like to argue in favor of adding the following cards to the Core list:

1 Crop Rotation - drg' is considering this but can't find the room.  I strongly suggest that you drop something for it.  The benefit greatly outways its draw backs.

1 Frantic Search - By adding the Crop it greatly increases the percentages of games in wich an Academy is in play and drawing 2 cards and untapping the TA is very powerful, as you know.  Also, since the restrictions I think we can all agree that the percentage of Turn 1, 2, 3 wins has changed such that Turn 3 and 2 have increased as Turn 1 wins have decreased.  This translates into having more than 1 land in play which means you gain more from the Frantic Search now then you would have in the original Long.dec.

1 Chrome Mox - I think it is powerful enough to be considered Core.  It is 0 CC and although it is painful to imprint some cards in the deck and impossible to print others, in my experience imprinting an un-needed Blue or Black card has definitely helped me win a fair share of games.

1 Grim Monolith - If Mana Vault is a Core card, whihc there is no arguement there.  Then I think for 1 more colorless mana the GM has to be included.

Drg' in order to make these cards core I would advise cutting the 4 ESG from your build.  I tried them and never found them to be helpful enough to include them permanently.

[drg`]

@ MoreFling
Yes Glimmervoid doesn't shine verses workshop deck, however what is a valid replacement?  I'm not sold on Dig.  Maybe 2 Underground Seas or Undiscovered Paradise.  The alternatives aren't that amazing and Glimmervoid fixes your mana base without needing to utilize C. Spheres.

@ Wollblad
You handle Chalice / Mud decks post sideboard with Seal of Cleansing or Hurkles or what have you.  I'm not much a fan of FOW in this either as it just isn't easily supported.  Maybe 1 Sideboard as a interesting Death Wish target, but there are better targets usually.

Consult is what it is.  I don't really have the room to make a 4th wish included and I wouldn't play it over my single Burning Wish.  I haven't used consult in any of the games I've played so far so I have to test some more and let you know.  I see your reasoning though.

Elvish Spirit Guilds are the main reason this wins on turn 1-2 and not turn 2-3.  The Spirit Guilds are there to allow you to maximize your black and blue mana.  I haven't found the lack of business spells to be a issue since you have so many tutors and rarely only need one draw 7 if any to win.  The only thing I would cut a ESG for would be Chrome Mox which i'm debating.

@Nehptis
Sorry didn't see your post.  My bad for not looking harder.  Any ways I agree with your core list with the exception of the fact that it doesn't contain Death Wish x3 on it.  Without Death Wish long is dead in the water.  

Crop Rotation is interesting but i'm torn with either having G mana from Guilds to help me go off or verses having Crop Rotation tutor for Academy about mid way of going off.  Spirit Guild often helps me get the necessary mana to cast Draw 7's / Vault / Sol Ring / Cabal Ritual / etc. very in the combo process so that I don't have to eat up valuable Black or Blue mana or use my rainbow lands up to cast colorless sources.  Also this deck wins fine without ever drawing / playing Academy.  Academy is more of a nice draw than a essential mana component like Lotus / Lions Eye / 6 Rituals tend to be.

Frantic Search doesn't return the type of advantage that I would like.  Without Academy it nets you -1 mana advantage and color selectivity similar to that of Chromatic Sphere.  It only regains mana advantage if you are on turn 3 (which is really not good), or you have Academy which you normally don't.

I explained Chrome Mox above.

Grim Monolith is cute and all but at best its a colorless Cabal Ritual.  Ritual is almost always better since this is base black.  

By cutting ESG you just destroy the speed of this deck.  You take the potential for turn 1 and cut it sharply and turn 2 also gets cuts sharply.  I've tried this deck with and without ESG and frankly I swear by them.  There to key to my mana base as a colorless filler that I really don't want to axe them, except maybe 1 for 1 with a Chrome Mox.

[Nehptis]

I'd like to get more support from the community on adding Crop Rotation and Chrome Mox to the Core Card list.

You have Valid arguements for not including Grim Monolith and F Search.  Although I'd like to hear more input from the community on these, as well.

I can't yet condone the addition of 3 x D Wish to the Core List.  I tried them and didn't get much benefit from them due to the 1BB cost.  Fetching Will meant have 3BBB available and fetching TOA meant 3BBBB.  I know the Cabal R is suppossed to balance this out.  Again more input from others would be helpful.

[drg`]

I was the one that suggested Crop Rotation to Karv in the first place.  I like it I just don't have room currently.

Elvish Spirit Guild x1 and Chrome Mox are interchangable.  They both have pro's and cons.  Its realy up to you which you want to play.  I liked them both in testing when I ran both.

Mike

[Smmenen]

Actually, I've been using Crop Rotation for a while - since Dec. 28th since which I've been playing Death wish Long - my understanding DRG is that Kirdape leaked it to you.

Steve

[drg`]

Na I had that, he wouldn't give me crap other than 4 cities :p.  It just seemed like a good fit.  He might of leaked it who knows.  Its a obvious card anyways.  It might replace Cabal or Spirit Guild its up in the air.

Mike

[Nehptis]

I edited the Core List to include:

1 x Crop Rotation -  I don't forsee any strong arguments surfacing against it.

Steve, do you agree on the Core card list?  What other cards would you recommend considering for the Core List?

[Smmenen]

My deck has gone through ALOT Of iterations so far and ALOT Of testing in the last month.  

You guys are coming along pretty fast though.

Steve

[drg`]

Update with a lot of the idea's brought up throught this discusion.

// Long.dec
// 0cc
1 Black Lotus
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Diamond
// 1cc
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Crop Rotation
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
// 2cc
2 Cabal Ritual
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Burning Wish
1 Time Walk
// 3cc
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Death Wish
1 Necropotence
1 Timetwister
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Windfall
1 Tinker
// 4cc
1 Tendrils of Agony
// 5cc
1 Memory Jar
// 6cc
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Mind's Desire
// Land
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
2 Underground Sea
1 Tolarian Academy

Comments?

Mind sharing your list Smmenen?

[Razer51]

I have been playing this deck (or Long/er/whatever) since about GenCon last year.  I have found that Crop Rotation is superb.  If NOTHING else it ups storm count by 1.  Frantic Search is also quite good, I feel.  Im not in support of Chrome Mox, however, as too often I dont want to/cant afford to lose the card I am pitching.  If you play the Death Wish variant (which I havent yet, as my testing has taken me a whole different route) then it is good, as you can wish for that imprinted Minds Desire or whatever.

Im really torn on Glimmervoid.  Some games its great.  But when playing against workshop based decks, mox monkey, etc, it has lost me games, whereas digs/undergrounds/whatever I would have won.  And that hurts.  I am sticking with 1 for now as feel the pros outweigh the cons, but it is still on the chopping block.
C

[Nehptis]

Suggestion, let's not post entire decklists so that we can keep this thread manageable.  I'll keep the Core list updated. That way in your posts you need only Post the non-core cards in your build + your SB.  I'll eventually add a core SB to the thread once we start discussing it.

So drg' if you could edit your last post and just include the non-core cards that would be helpful.  I think the Crop will improve your build a lot.  I would recommend that you try and find room for the Frantic Search as I and Razor agree on it's powerfulness (is that a word?) with Academy / Crop in this deck.

[carlossb]

I´m not sure the Xantids are enough, or are the best option to play with Death-Long,
Have you playtested with FOW?

One possibility:

- Play with 4 Force of Will in the sideboard, because in many 2nd games you´ll add to the main deck blue cards (like Hurkyl´s Recall)

- Play them main deck. I know this is an OOLD discussion...  
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I liked very much the interaction between the tutors (mystical and vampiric) with Chromatic Spheres.
I don´t think it´s wise to cut them all.
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With the inclusion of green (in your version with ESG and Xantids...), the deck has now 4 colours, so the Underground Sea must be another land that produces more coloured mana (Glimmervoid, or Undiscovered Paradise...)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3-4 Brainstorms are essential, of course

[rozetta]

The build I've been testing lately is a little more similar to the build seen on the Vintage Forum thread, but with a couple of tweaks. I still run the full 4 Chromatic Spheres and 3 Cabal Rituals, with no ESGs.

The Cabal Rituals have been okay, but not stellar. They normally give only 1 additional mana, but up the storm count, and that 1 additional mana is often enough. Their plus side is that often they make 3 more mana when played from the graveyard off a Yawgmoth's Will. One interesting consideration regarding the Cabal Rituals is a suggestion I received locally. A couple of the "pro" players in this area have recently piloted long (the pre-restriction version) and were taken with Helm of Awakening. In addition to their benefit of countering the effects of a Sphere of Resistance, they lower the cost of about 21 cards, or 1/3 of the deck (and wish targets). When considering the fact that Cabal Ritual normally produces just 1 additional mana, the Helm pays itself back after the first cheapened spell. They also boost the Academy. The downside is that they cannot be played a second time off Yawgmoth's Will to up the storm count. However, since they reduce the cost of spells played from Will (for instance, playing Chromatic Spheres for free), this should probably not be too much of a factor. I'm considering trying them out in place of the Cabal Rituals.

I think running a Time Walk is definitely a good call from the testing I've done, since this deck is not as rugged as the old long, it's more likely to fizzle occasionally and the time walk gives you another try (which saved me in a few games already). I've also been testing a crop rotation which has been okay. Some games it comes in handy, and fetching an Academy while going off is never bad. Plus it has synergy with Cabal Ritual (get's you 2 cards closer to threshold) and ups the storm count. It's been good enough to continue testing with, but I'm not 100% about it. It is obviously good in conjunction with the Helm of Awakening plan.

I have also found that 2 Death Wish and 1 Burning Wish is plenty so far. The casting cost of the Death Wish is such that I really don't want to see multiples too early. So far I haven't consulted/returns'd them all away.

I find this deck a little more reliant on the draw-7s than the old long. Often I find myself going for a wheel with an early tutor, much in the way that I would have done playing Academy a few years ago. The deck is still impressive and hasn't lost many games at all as of yet.