Debate on the creature base of BG Void

[Iron_Chef]

The deck I brought to Waterbury was Black/Green Void, and I am still at a loss...  I didn't finish well (went 3-5   ) but I still had a blast.  What I am at a loss about is the best possible creature base for the deck.  I've listed below the creatures I think have a possible slot in BG Void.


The Beatsticks


Phyrexian Negator -- Almost a guaranteed win if it hits the board game 1, however, the lack of non-crucial permanents sometimes comes back to haunt me...

Nantuko Shade -- Has potential to be great (and is) but the mana commitment turn after turn to be truly effective is a little daunting.

The Tech

Hypnotic Specter -- More consistent in disrupting control, plucking that crucial Force of Will (or the pitch card) to be able to cast crucial spells.

Withered Wretch -- Nightmare for dragon, tog, and any welder based deck IMHO

Blurred Mongoose -- Almost man-landish in its ability to be played under void

Masticore -- Almost an automatic sideboard inclusion against Any deck that runs 1 toughness creaturs... gasp... LANDSTILL?!... stupid cloud of fairies and curiousity...  

MAN LANDS!!!

Mishra's Factory -- No color commitment, comes into play untapped, but a little weak

Treetop Village -- Green commitment, slower, is the 3/3 worth it over 2/2?



What do you rate these at, and considering I would like 12 creatures maindecked (4 of them man-lands), what would you use?

Thanks!

--Nick--

Vintage Enthusiast

[Roxas]

The creatures I would use:

1.  Mishra's Factory - 2/2 creature that doesn't come into play tapped, activates for only 1, and can pump itself to block as a 3/3 is good.  I'd surely take this over Treetop Village.

2.  Nantuko Shade - Nantuko Shade is arguably the best weenie ever printed.  He is especially good under Void, since you won't have a whole lot else to spend your mana on anyway.  

As for the third creature slot, it's really just about play style and metagame.  If you like to play Void, and then win as soon as possible before they deal with it, use Negator.  If you like to keep the lock as long as possible with sustained disruption, use Hypnotic Specter.  If decks vulnerable to it are widespread, Withered Wretch is a good consideration.  If you aren't sure, I'd go with Negator, but that's just because I like to end games as quickly as possible once I have control of the game in order to prevent those ever-so-annoying "miraculous comebacks."

[MarkPharaoh]

I don't like Negator right now with all the Madness, Os. Stompy and Landstill running around.  Mishra's Factory is a MUST in this deck.  Although the Mongoose can slip under the Void, it doesn't do much compared to other options that you have at your disposal (remember Void has 30 mana sources so casting things under Void shouldn't be too much trouble).  It comes down to a metagame choice on whenever you want Hyppies or Wretches.  Wretches for Bazaar oriented decks (Dragon, Madness, Os. Stompy) or Hyppies against control (Keeper, Hulk, etc etc.).

[Kinarus]

Shades and Factories are, at least to me, a no-brainer. I'm not impressed with Blurred Mongoose, and it seems like it'd be hard to argue not including at least some number of Withered Wretches. Negators are probably better suited in a Chalice Black deck, but that's not to say they're ineffective with Voids. Personally, I like Hypnotic Spectre as the third true creature.

And Treetop Villages are definately a no.

-Kinarus

[DaBigBobowski]

mishras factory - A lot of people have been trashin the factory lately, but i think its a definite inclusion.  I've been playin void for awhile and its never steered me wrong.  

nantuko shade - shade is a definite inclusion.  no questions asked.  

phyrexian negator - Negator is a love/hate card.  Sometimes its just amazing, but sometimes you would rather have anything else.  but if you run gators, you gotta have the respective cores in the board.  they make it all good against the aggro that the gator fears.  

blurred mongoose - dont run the mongoose, its not worth it.  unless 75% of your meta is blue based control, hes just not good.  

withered wretch - basically the same as the mongoose, except replace "blue-based control" with "dragon" where applicable.  

hypnotic specter - hyppies are a judgement call too, personally, i think its just past its prime.  its still good, but  the negator is just scarier game 1.  

although any of these make fine sideboard choices.  especially if you run negators, you need to have stuff to switch him out for.  i personally go with 4 factory's, 4 shades, and 4 gators main, with 3-4 cores and 3-4 wretches in the board, depending on what youre expectin.  its worked pretty good so far for me.  but honestly, its all playstyle and experience. so good luck with youre choices and happy beatings.

DaBigBobowski
Team Broken Combo

[eddavatar]

This is my personal ranking of Suicide/Void creatures in general

Mishra's Factory

Suicide: 1 (never go in there)

Void: 4: (fits the deck in theory, often save your behind, but don't cry when you play it early and try to get a void lock and got it wastelanded. Has to be played correctly. Never play before establishing a stable mana base)

Phyrexian Negator

Suicide: 5 (the only creature in Suicide that's still suicidal. Absolute house against control. Freezes opponent's creature unless it's a dreadnaught or a tog. It's a must for suicide because it IS the HEART of the deck. Deck wants to kill as fast as possible)

Void: 3-5 (Depends on meta. If it's aggro dominated, sideboard candidate. Vice Versa. Void plays a slightly longer game.)

Nantuko Shade

Suicide/Void: 5 (Don't ask)

Withered Wretch

Suicide: 4 (It's a good critter. But then, I usually prefer to have a Shade out and pump it all the way than investing in Wretch)

Void: 5 (2 of those guys is a must almost these days. Meta dependent if more is needed. Keep in mind to leave mana open against Dragon when he's on board. Void plays slower)

Hypnotic Specter

Suicide: 3 (Too slow in my opinion. Would you want to spend a ritual on negator or Hyppie? They're must counter anyway, might as well take the fast win)

Void: 4 (Helps you against control. Earn you time to set up lock. Yet still slow)

Masticore: Contagion is probably a better choice for the purpose. 2 for both decks

Blurred Mongoose: (Void obviously) It's good in theory, lousy in practice. You don't want to hold it when you are stuck with no green mana. But it's servicable. I'll give a 3.

This would be my alignment for Nether Void's creature base, for an unknown meta:

4 Mishra's Factory
4 Nantuko Shade
2 Phyrexian Negator
2 Withered Wretch

[MarkPharaoh]

withered wretch - basically the same as the mongoose, except replace "blue-based control" with "dragon" where applicable.

It does more then that, it fucks with players using the AK engine, makes Yawgmoth's Will a pitiful card to draw and hits Madnesses Squee's, Deep's and Roar's.

[TracerBullet]

Look, I'll make Wretch simple- He's at least useful against every deck in the metagame.  If you can name me one major deck (and all it's variants) that does not use the grave in some way, I'll concede that you can play less than 3 Wretches main.

I can name you ten that do.


In Void, these should be automatic-
4 Shade
3 (4) Wretch

The last few slots are up to you.  I've been running 3 Hypnotic Specter, and it's been looking ok, but not great.  I may play around with it a little more, but I know it's not gonna be Blurred Mongoose or Phyrexian Negator.  There's too much aggro in too many metagames to run either of those, and definitely too much in my metagame.  I could see Mishra's in some of the creature slots, but definitely not in some of the mana slots (I wrote a huge long thing on this back on the crap boards- I really wish I could get to it...).

[timmy]

I have found that usually eight creatures plus four mishras factories work fine maindeck.  My current combination is,
4 withered wretch
4 nantuko shade
One other thing that I want to try and am currently playtesting is slith bloodletter.  It has a decent ability and plus regeneration.  So you won't usually lose him to a pernicious deed.

[DavidHernandez]

@TracerBullet;

here ya go dude.  I keep an archive of this kind of stuff:

BEGIN_QUOTE of TracerBullet"
B/g Vizzoid-

4 Nantuko Shade
3 Withered Wretch
3 Hypnotic Specter

4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Nether Void

1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation

4 Dark Ritual
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus

4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

4 Bayou
3 Llanowar Wastes
1 Polluted Delta
8 Swamp

SB-
3 Choke
2 Contagion
2 Diabolic Edict
4 Naturalize
1 Masticore
1 Withered Wretch
2 Planar Void

First thoughts-
I'm probably going to drop one of the Hyppies in favor of the last Withered Wretch. Hyppie was solid on the day, as there was a large contingent of Keeper and Tog, but Wretch was sided out less, and tended to directly affect the board more. Add to that the cheaper casting cost, and I think we have a winner.

Deed was, once again, the MVP of the day. If I could run six, I would.

When I said Withered Wretch is my #1 creature, I think I forgot to say something else. Nantuko Shade is not a creature. He's a win, he's critter control, he's anti-Tog hate, he's the key to the Mono-B on Mono-B matchup, and the all-around asswhupper that doesn't exactly get put down as a creature. Important things to keep in mind.

I don't see how somebody can get away with running 6 Swamp, 4 Bayou, and 4 Fetch. Wastelands are prevelant enough in my metagame to ward me away from that set-up. On top of that, I find that I DO NOT want to sit at less that 1 B ever.

Because of this, I don't like Mishra's. They're slow, and while powerful, they don't allow for enough Black. Perhaps you can use them as Wasteland sops, but frankly, I'd rather have lands that help me win.

On that note, Blurred Mongoose tends to kinda, ya know, suck. A 2/1 for a green mana simply isn't worth my investment, and if I'm playing down Nether Void, odds are I have four mana anyway (which is one away from five, the requirement to play Withered Wretch/Nantuko Shade). I know they would blow monumentally large chunks in my aggro-heavy metagame, but even then, I don't see what matchups they really help with.

I don't like having only 4 lands that actually PRODUCE green. On that note, I play 3/1 Wastes/Deltas. I'm probably going to up it to 2/2, but I've played 0/4 and I really found it to be a problem.

AlexC summed up my thoughts on Chalice of the Void. I really have found it to be unimpressive as of recent.

Choke was the MVP of the SB. It simply won matches. With Keeper becoming near as popular as it was three years ago and not running City of Ass/Undiscovered, it really becomes a house. Just a beating.

Contagion/Masticore were in preparation for Fish/GayR. Both of them house the deck, as their Null Rods generally come out game 2. I chose Contagion over two more 'Cores because it's also quite useful against TnT and Mono-B, which ended up being a significant chunk of the meta on the day (Mono-B anyway).

I've found that over the course of a match, I have a rather favorable matchup against Dragon. Unless they pull a turn 1/2 kill and I don't disrupt, I can generally stall them out long enough to either get out a Wretch or eat all their mana. After board, the matchup becomes near nightmarish for them, the saving grace being that sometimes I simply can't get things done on turn 1. Not the best matchup in the history of mankind, but definitely in my favor.
END_QUOTE"

===

having played against Chalice Black, Sui w/Red, and B/g Void on Saturday, as well as (in testing on Friday) B/g "Void" running Sphere of Resistance instead of Nether Void, i have to say that Tracerbullets build was the toughest, and in my opinion, the most solid of those decks.

it was consistent, and drew answers when needed. Pernicious Deed is like cheating. Really awesome. Withered Wretch is good in too many ways against too many decks to ignore.

I never feared a Negator, but i always winced and bit my tounge when a Deed hit the table.

I have found Blurred Mongoose to be sub-optimal. Yeah, he comes out for 2, but so what. Ultimately, the stuff in Tracerbullet's build is better. IMO, Fetchlands and Mishra's Factories are also sub-optimal.

The only thing i **may** disagree with is Tracerbullet's intention to drop to 2 Hypnotic Spectors. I think 3 is a good number in this build.
--Dave.

[HuntedWumpus]

@CoolDaddyNick: Been playing void alot recently, and have tried all the creatures and found this to be optimum.

4 Shade- Baiscally a must have, and he is far more durable than negator.
3 Wretch- 2/2 for 2 with an ability that is far more powerful that you think. He bascially shuts off dragon, and makes ever popular yawgmoths win much weaker. He Eats Squee's and all sorts of good grave based stuff. Very solid
3 Hypnotic Specter- I ran Mongoose in his place for a long time and have decided to switch
3-4 Factory- I have cut it to 3 in my deck because the mana base needed help, but he synergizes with void well, as dose mongoose.

SB
Xx Negators(2-3)
Xx Masticore(3)

In a control match siding in negator for the turn 1 negator is soild. Watch for fire/ice or scary cards with direct dmg before you do.

Mascticore really helps hose aggro, and the casting cost of 4 means he often lives a deed you may cast.