Smmenen's Hulk Smash 2K4

[Smmenen]

This Tog deck is designed to beat the new rise of Aggro Decks, Aggro Control decks, and Control decks that have emerged in the wake of the new Restrictions. In particular, it is built for the mirror and for Big O (which it annhiliates).

The first key to beating Control with Tog is realizing that you are playing a COMBO DECK - you MUST play the beatdown. I ALMOST played this deck at the Waterbury becuase I knew that a Control deck that can play Aggro or Control almost always wins. But I also beleive that pure Combo is too good not to play.

If Long is not good in a metagame, here is what I'd play:

Smmenen's Tog:

4 Duress
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will

4 Accumulated Knowledge
2 Intuition
4 Brainstorm

3 Tog
3 Cunning Wish

1 GUSH
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Deep Analysis
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mind Twist

1 Pernicious Deed

4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
5 Moxen
1 MANA CRYPT
1 Black Lotus

No Wastelands, no Shamans. This is key - these cards make the deck more Controlish. The deck is built in order to Goldfish as QUICKLY as possible.

SB: (not finalized)
1 Berserk
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Artifact Mutation
3 Xantid Swarm
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Oxidize
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Pernicious Deed
3 Coffin Purge
2 DA
I am sure i'm missing something from the SB.

Maindeck Gush allows faster goldfishing - and you always see it by turn 5. Deed is too amazing not to run one of. Three Cunning Wish are absolutely necessary to goldfish as quickly as possible.

When sitting down to play the mirror - GO aggro. Play your Tog and force threats into play. Use your Duresses aggressively. Use you card drawing aggressively. You may get forced intot he control position - but if you have Active Library going, this is not difficult to do. Duresses will make the mirror match FAR more bearable where you get to play all your AKs, but you clear the way for thiers. This solves the AK mirror problem to a very large degree. You also have md DA to Intution for just in case.

Mana Crypt is, I am convinced, a permanent addition to this archetype as it is just so powerful and fits the casting cost scheme so well with Cunning Wish, Intuition, Yawg Will and the like.

Have Fun and Good Luck.

Stephen Menendian

[xrizzo]

Steve,

Is the mana crypt replacing SOL RING?  They are both important to the development of fast mana - and since both are restricted - why not run both?  You could even drop an off colored mox if nothing else...

With only 3 Tog's, 1 deed, and no help in the SB, how can this quelch an aggro deck's early start?  This seems more built for control than aggro...  What has been your early experience against aggro, and how many games have you had time to play...

I love 4x Duress.  It helps against so much more than just opposing AKs.  

I think Tog is in a unique position in that it nicely staggers the lines of control and aggro and combo.  You can switch the play mode quickly to become whichever type of deck best beats your opponent.  

Let me know what you think.

[TheRealSuperman]

I have testet it a lot, and i would cut :
1 gush ( TO RANDOM )
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Mana crypt ( u doesn't need 2 colerless mana )
and putt in:
1-2 deed ( your metagame....)
1 deep

[Matt]

You tested it a lot? How? It's only been up here for an hour and a half (as of your post)...

[theorigamist]

TheRealSuperman, why would you take out Mana Crypt if you're adding more Deeds?  Colorless mana acceleration with an X activaction cost...I see no lack of synergy there.

[UnstableCornbread]

First off sir let me say I have always admired your articles and the decks your team helps to break. Two of the people I play with are infact members of your illustrious team, I consider them friends and highly value there opinions. With that being said let me move on to my second point. Were you in anyway under the influence of alcohol or other mind numbing agent when your wrote this? I just glanced at my calandar and it is not April First..


"Mana Crypt is, I am convinced, a permanent addition to this archetype as it is just so powerful and fits the casting cost scheme so well with Cunning Wish, Intuition, Yawg Will and the like."

I cannot deny the fact that Mana Crypt is indeed a very powerful card. However at the cost of one measly mana, would Sol Ring not be better? It is quite possible the one mana could make a HUGE inpact, but then again so could a random Lightning Bolt to the dome per turn.

"Duresses will make the mirror match FAR more bearable where you get to play all your AKs, but you clear the way for thiers."

What about your opponents Duresses and Ak's? You cannot simple state I run four Duress, thus I am going to force through anything I wish. You do know the person you are playing against is also running Duress. About that Ak statement, are you willing to risk casting a few Ak's KNOWING that the person sitting across from you run them as well. I for one, am not willing to make decision. Did I mention your opponents Duresses?

Twenty-Two mana sources. Yes that is 22, the number before twenty-three. In my testing 23 is the BARE minimum you want to run, especially when the field is full of 5 waste affect control decks, or main deck Blood Moon. Did I mention one of the lands is not a strip mine?

Main deck Gush and a single Deep.Anal seem very poor choices. You say you want to go for the throat but run control winning cards. And if your goal is to swing into the red zone and smash into your opponents groinal region, why not run four togs? However I have only played Tog for the past 16 months and earned a rating on 1920 off it according to the DCI.


 I really love Xantid Swarm in the board, all combo decks need to run this card.. Didnt mean to sound sarcastic, it is really good. Three purge might be a bit much, but I am assured you will crush any rector/dragon deck you face.

Thank you for your time and please be easy on me when you reply..

This is Cornbread signing off.

[MarkPharaoh]

However I have only played Tog for the past 16 months and earned a rating on 1920 off it according to the DCI.

A little cocky are we?  In your post, you make it sound like Steve insulted you in some way by posting this  

[UnstableCornbread]

Well I have to have something to back my claims, and my one post count certainly is not going to do that sir. It was not said in a truly cocky I am better than you attitude, just simply stated for reference. However if I came off that way I apoligize.

Insulted me? Heavens no! Insulted the deck I play? Yes.

[Smmenen]

The original tog deck has 22 (JP's Hulk Smash) mana sources and the original GAT deck has 18.  18!!!! Even GATr only had 19.  I don't see what the deal is.  The mana crypt is sooo much better than Sol Ring becuase you plan on winning quickly.  That is so easy to discover that it suggests conspicuousness or little need for perspicacity in the observer. you have not been playing Tog for 16 months in T1 becuase I started 11 months ago with GAT and was among the very first in the US to do so in reported Tournament play.

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=4552
I have considered four Tog and may well go to four.  I have one DA for the mirror and an additional draw and one gush becuase it is amazing.  It is restricted.  It helps going to the Red zome more than almost any card besides Berserk.  

Steve

[Windfall]

First off sir let me say I have always admired your articles and the decks your team helps to break. Two of the people I play with are infact members of your illustrious team, I consider them friends and highly value there opinions. With that being said let me move on to my second point. Were you in anyway under the influence of alcohol or other mind numbing agent when your wrote this? I just glanced at my calandar and it is not April First..

Well, the first part of this, I agree with.  Steve's a great writer, and he's probably laughing at your post right now.  I am jealous that you play with the elites in fact.  Some day I may meet them if I ever become popular.  For the second part of your paragraph, perhaps you should explore the wonders of mind numbing agents.  

I think that maybe you don't understand the fundamentals of playing Tog in type one.  Psychatog decks really don't care about many of the threats that the opposing deck has to offer.  Psychatog can just ignore small threats that don't disturb its board and smash over the defense with a Berserked Tog.  This is the idea - sacrifice tempo for bursts of cards that will allow you to regain lost time with a one turn clock.  This philosophy explains many of Smmenen's card choices.

RE: Mana Crypt
Mana Crypt is superior to Sol Ring in a deck that kills in one turn.  Again, the random 3 damage won't hurt too much if you know what you're doing.  You don't drop a Crypt when you have nothing to cast with it.  In those cases, a Sol Ring wouldn't be better because you'd still have nothing to cast with it.  But Mana Crypt, cast when needed, speeds you up much more than a Sol Ring would.  It also allows for more turn 1 Intuitions, which I hear are some good.  Generally, you cast it when you are going to win or set up your win.

RE: Duress
I think all Steve was saying was that having the Duresses is great for the mirror.  Naturally, they probably have them too, but not having them would be terrible.  Honestly, I would hope that Steve would not have to discuss the merits of Duress in a proactive deck.  We can all probably agree that Duress is a great card.

RE: Gush/Deep/4 Togs
You said it yourself that NBLH will hurt.  Gush is very strong vs. Wastelands, Price of Progress, Back to Basics, and it's perfect for the deck none-the-less.  I don't think of Gush as a control card.  I think of it as "I gain mana and Psychatog gets bigger."  There were 4 in GroAtog for a reason.  There were also 4 in TurboLand decks.  There were not 4 in Keeper or MonoU because it is not a control card.  Control likes to stay ahead in land drops, not slow itself down.

The Deep Analysis is odd to me too in a way.  I guess because I'm used to having 2 in the main deck.  I like to Intuition for 2 and a Duress to force card advantage.  But let's think about it.  It's good vs. control, and it's good vs. aggro (see above about Tog not caring about the other side of the board).  So why not run it?  I imagine the only reason to not run a second is because Gush is better and he cannot run 2 Gush.

Four Togs is a bit much in a deck that will find one quickly and use it to kill the opponent.  Multiple Togs are not needed and more than three will give you a dead draw almost every game.

RE: 22 Mana
I would probably be more comfortable with 23 myself.  But there are Brainstorms and Fetchlands to work as hand-fixers.  Also, the Gush is like another mana source most of the time.  But you are probably right in that 5 strip effects on the other side of the table can slow Tog down enough to make it care about its opponent's threats.

I really love Xantid Swarm in the board, all combo decks need to run this card.

Ah, see... you are calling it a combo deck.  So we do have an understanding here.  

Some more stuff to touch on here

Is the mana crypt replacing SOL RING? They are both important to the development of fast mana - and since both are restricted - why not run both? You could even drop an off colored mox if nothing else...

With only 3 Tog's, 1 deed, and no help in the SB, how can this quelch an aggro deck's early start? This seems more built for control than aggro... What has been your early experience against aggro, and how many games have you had time to play...

The Sol Ring issue has been discussed a bit, but an off color Mox is far superior to Sol Ring.  Sol Ring uses precious colored mana to cast.  A Mox will give you the same amount of extra mana that turn as a Sol Ring without this drawback.  Plus, I don't think he needs both.  Mana Drains already give some heavy colorless mana (usually enough to just win).  When it comes down to a choice between the two, Crypt is just far better at putting you ahead.

As stated, an aggro deck's early start is meaningless to Tog unless it's topped with disruption.  Since Tog will swing for 20 or more points of damage in one turn, Smmenen's Tog deck does not care about its life unless its at zero.

I might have to agree that a sideboard solution to creatures would be nice.  Smother may not be as strong with the uprising of TnT, but it's still nice.  Fire/Ice is always welcome in my decks, so I'd probably put one in the board.

Pernicious Deed
Some may argue that the Deed sweeps many of Togs goodies with it.  The thing is, it does not always come into play.  It is used for those tough aggro matchups that xrizzo is refering to.  Also, if played first, it's a proactive solution to Blood Moon.  It wreaks enough decks on its own to warrant a main deck slot.

Eh, just some of my thoughts on what people are saying.  Hopefully I answered some of your questions for Steve, but I'm sure he could do better so lets see if he says anything.

     ~Mark B.

[InfectedMushroom]

Steve,
         Mana Crypt is faster than Sol Ring but as was suggested earlier, do you believe both can be used? Mox Pearl can be cut for a Sol Ring and may give needed acceleration to cast some of your more key spells.

[jazzykat]

One thing I don't get: taking out strips? They can knock out bazaars which seem to be fueling these aggro decks. They are also colorless mana, when bastards are running the 5 strip plan, and 2 stifle.

I understand why stifles were done away with and the monkeys but I think a second deed is a sure way to get one in a timely manner.

I understand tog is a combo deck of sorts, but why not play TPS, or dragon (well there is a lot of hate against it right now), which just ignore aggro decks alltogether and just win.

Also, is this realigned tog not worried about worshop.dec. because of its small showing recently?

[Wollblad]

Tog is a combo deck and is best as such, but as it is built now, it has one big weakness: Maze of Ith. Around here virtually all aggro decks and fish decks run 3-4 Mazes in their sideboard. Specially for Fish, it is more probable that they will find a Maze before you find a Tog and is able to set up the kill. That's why I think you need at least one Strip, if not in main, then in sideboard so you can side it in if you see Mazes.

Another concern is that you want to build a combo deck, but includes red to do what? Sidebording into a control deck? With all wastelands, B2B and Blood Moon, isn't it more worth to have a stable mana base and not running red?

[TutoreIlluminato]

Smennen's list is very similar to the one i used to win 5 tournaments of the last 6 i did here  in Italy(in the last i was beated in the top8 by a Madness)
The decklist i used:
4 Delta
1 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic
3 Tropical
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
3 Duress
1 Mind Twist
4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
3 Cunning Wish
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Regrowth
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Gush
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Future Sight (now is too slow...but it won many control mirrors)
1 Fire/Ice
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Time Walk
3 Psychatog


SIDE
1 Berserk
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Fire/Ice
1 Smother
1 Coffin Purge
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Naturalize
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Artifact Mutation
1 Pernicious Deed
2 Null Rod (there were Long.decs around...now they can be Purges)


22 mana sources is the right choice. I ran no basic island because there weren't too many wasteland in the environment, now i may cut a volcanic.
Sol Ring >> Mana Crypt: it's more slow, but it doesn't kill you against Zoo and monoreds
I think that you need 15 blue lands...so you have space only for 6 SoLoMoxen
You need to run Fire/Ice...at least in 1 SB copy. Maze of Ith aren't absolutely a problem if you run Time Walk + 1/2 Fire/ice + Yawgmoth's WIll
I ran no Intuition because there were many mirror matches...since i don't run DA (too slow against aggro and Stax) it's a dead card: Skeletal Scrying and Future SIght were better (now FS is really too slow, and the number of mirror is decreased, so a Intuition can return MD)
Gush is really strong!! It must be timed, but it wins many games, expecially against aggro or other controls.
You need Mystical Tutor, because you need the chance to tutor a spell after a Drain.
I think that a Smother and a Fire/Ice SB are really really needed.
I tested in september a 2 Intuition-noDA deck and 2 Intuitions were too much...but if you run 1 DA maindeck you can use them

The real problem were Bazaar based decks: Dragon and Madness, because the Bazaar+Squee engine is incounterable...but with 3 Purges SB you can beat them.

Please do *not* post decklists in all CAPS.

Hyperion

[Ivantheterrible]

Jazzycat
Tog is a better choice for most tournments because it can be tuned to beat any metagame alot easier the dragon or TPS can.
Also tog is a control deck that also plays out like combo and aggro. Something that is all 3 is generally a very good deck to play.

I am wondering though if the lack of B2B's is hurting the deck at all. It would seem that Landstill could win very quickly with man land beats knowing this build had nothing to do about it.

It seems to me that if this could some how run both B2B's and still beat Big 0 easliy that this really would be the best deck in the format.

[BigChuck]

Guys, you need to give Smennen a little bit of credit here. We all know where and how mana crypt has been used throughout the years, and if he has tested it in this deck, and found it to work well, then take his word for it. He puts more time and effort into this then a lot of us, for you to just simply saying mana crypt is bad, without actually playing it.

[Kerz]

Main deck Gush and a single Deep.Anal seem very poor choices. You say you want to go for the throat but run control winning cards. And if your goal is to swing into the red zone and smash into your opponents groinal region, why not run four togs? However I have only played Tog for the past 16 months and earned a rating on 1920 off it according to the DCI

Where do you come off trying to be cocky? I hate to sound like a fanboy here, but don't try to tell Smmenen or any of the upper teir players on TMD whats good and whats not. Good posters/players don't post decklists or comments without backing them up with a TON of testing. Personnally, I have tested this deck and I think that smmenen is a genius for the choices he made. The thing that most people won't get is that the deck is closer to a combo deck than anything- but with the ability to play the control game against combo.

I guess I could see if you presented your ideas in a polite way then that could be taken more seriously. But in this state, I just ignore your entire post.

[Mage of Dreams]

Where the FUCK do you come off trying to be cocky?

I guess I could see if you presented your ideas in a polite way then that could be taken more seriously. But in this state, I just ignore your entire post.

'nuff said.

Shawn

[Hyperion]

This is quoted from the Type I Forum Rules:

-Keep your ego out of these forums. Type I is a complex format that provides different means to accomplish things by - you are never always right and everyone that disagrees with you is never always wrong.

-If you need to make a point, avoid a negative and insulting attitude because it usually results in a similarly negative response.

Just because this is the Open Type I Forum doesn't mean it doesn't apply here either. If people don't start making a serious effort towards having a more productive discussion, this thread will be closed.

There's nothing that someone who puts time into testing a deck hates more than having to constantly defend their card choices. It's your right to agree/disagree with card choices in "Hulk Smash 2K4". If you don't want to run Mana Crypt in Hulk, it's REAL SIMPLE - run a Sol Ring instead! You aren't going to convince Smmenen to switch back by dwelling on the same obvious comparison between Sol Ring and Mana Crypt.

[Saucemaster]

Okay, I had to respond to this.

Well, the first part of this, I agree with. Steve's a great writer, and he's probably laughing at your post right now. I am jealous that you play with the elites in fact. Some day I may meet them if I ever become popular. For the second part of your paragraph, perhaps you should explore the wonders of mind numbing agents.

I'm one of the two Meandeck members that Cornbread plays with.  Zhalfirin is the other.   And we can both assure you, after having been smashed many times at Mr. Bread's hands, that this:

I think that maybe you don't understand the fundamentals of playing Tog in type one.

...is absolutely wrong.  Hopefully I'll be saving UnstableCornbread the necessity of a cutting reply in his own defense when I say that he has an amazing grasp of Tog in Type One.  He's a wrecking ball with the deck.

On the Mana Crypt issue, yes, it's an interesting choice.  Can we all try to have a rational discussion as to when it's good and when it's bad?  Here's my thinking:

Mana Crypt is good when:  1) you're winning the game in the first few turns, usually by about turn 5 or 6 at the latest (see Long, Rector Trix, Neo/Academy...).
2) you have some way to rid yourself of it when it becomes a serious threat (see Shaman, Smokestack, Welder...).

And we all know when Mana Crypt is bad.

Steve's idea is that Mana Crypt falls under criterion (1).  He feels that Tog is fundamentally a combo deck that should be winning the game by turn 5 or 6.  This is the heart of the issue.  I actually (gasp!) disagree.

Let me explain further.  Tog certainly has a combo option, and any of us who have ever played the deck are well aware of it.  It's Plan A against almost any sort of aggro: Draw as many cards as you can as quickly as you can, then send a Berserk'd Tog into the red zone by turn four or five.  Ignore the opponent except to the degree that's absolutely necessary.

But despite the fact that Tog *can* function as a combo deck (hell, every good deck in T1 functions as a combo deck to some degree), I think that it's still, at heart, a control deck.  Others (quite possibly Steve and maybe even JP) might disagree, seeing the combo option as the fundamental attribute of the deck.  I think that's an overstatement of the facts, that it pays too much attention to what is merely one of the deck's options among others.  And this is where my ambivalence about Mana Crypt comes in.  There are many times with this deck where your goldfish is simply not fast enough to mitigate Crypt's obvious drawback.  There are times in plenty of matches--aggro matches included--when you are forced to act as the control deck and play for a long game because the cards just aren't there, or it will take too long to get them.  In those cases, Crypt could very well be the backbreaker.

What I *do* think, though, is that Tog goldfishes fast enough often enough that it's worth at least testing the Crypt.  Steve's tested it and likes it; I have been relying on his testing with this decklist so far, as we're testing plenty of other decks at the moment.  With Darksteel on the way, Tog is far from our only focus.  I am going to do plenty of Tog testing (w/ and w/o Crypt) in the near future.  Can we hear a Crypt rebuttal from someone who's tested with it?  When did it suck ?  Because there are times when it will, let's face it.  When was it godly?  Because again, there are times when it will be.

[urza_insane]

Please clean up your post Nate, very sloppy and not fun to read.

Onto the post-
Why all the bashing?! Good god! This is a persons opinion on a deck, he does not control what you play, he's only trying to HELP YOU by sharing some of the knowledge he has gained.

About Mana Crypt. This card, in my opinion, is all based on playing style. If you like to play Tog aggresively as a combo then play this card. If you like to play Tog as control then don't play this card.  

I might be leaning a little against it with the current meta (aggroish) as it could cost you the game when your getting beat down.

[Smmenen]

Saucy is right - it might be something of an exaggeration to say that it is strictly a combo deck.

This isn't much more precise, but here is how I approach the deck:

Against Combo, I play control.  Against Control, I play aggro.  And against Aggro I play combo.   "Who's the beatdown now biatch?"!

Mana crypt serves well even if you don't win by turn 5.  You can hold it in the late game draw for Tog munch just like you do with most of your late game Moxen, or drop it for a HUGE Will.  I think once everyone plays with Crypt, unless they are playing Tog like Keeper, it will become a permanent part of the archetype.

I wouild also like to say that I tested ALOT against Oshinawa Stompy and Mana Crypt was very good.  I do no think that decks like this can afford to sit around and play a long game against the best of modern aggro - you have to get Tog down and seal the deal.

I am considering adding a 4th Tog for good measure.

Steve

[Mage of Dreams]

Here's my thoughts after I sleeved it up and played a few games tonight,

1) Mana Crypt - Like Steve said, if its useful drop it, if not don't. It will always feed the Tog.

2) Low mana count - While I was never mana screwed, I often felt cramped. Luckily Wastelands were never a factor, if they had been I think they would have been devistating. I'm curious how others are fairing against Waste/Strip.

3) No Waste/Strip - I don't really like it but it seems more of a comfort thing then an actual problem. The trade off not stunting your opponent's development while not stunting yours seems good, but again opposing Strip effects seem like they will be exceedingly dangerous.

4) No Shamans -  No problem, good call.

In response to some of the posts, I don't think running both Sol Ring and Crypt are necessary and the Crypt seems to be a good replacement. This can boil down to play style and Sol Ring is still a viable option. I do have to go with Steve here though, Crypt seems superior.

Sometimes I felt like I was straining to get to Tog, trying to work in the 4th one seems like a likely evolution.

Gush at least for now is a must stay, between the mana exceleration, and the draw it's a "I wish I had more" card.

Dropping a tutor is not an option, you need to assemble the pieces asap. This build would prefer never to see a late game if at all possible.

So after one nights test runs, I like it so far. More testing and a few tweaks and we'll see I guess.

Shawn

[Thissa]

Hmm... the lack of strips is disconcerting to me (I hope you don't face many Mazes of Ith in your metagame). I would try to stick a Fire/Ice in the sideboard somewhere too. I agree that this version will beat aggro a lot more consistently though...

[Spizzard]

3 Togs may work, but isn't the most comfortable thing.  With 4, you can now pitch to FoW, you don't have to protect one as much, (you now have more you can kill with) and you can Intuition for them much more safely.  Added to the fact, that since this is now more a combo deck, you want a Tog early enough to finish your opponent off, in true combo tradition.  (I did say this in irc, just wanted to post for others to hear.)

    Mazes could be a problem, but early GAT and Hulk without Wastelands/Strips had the same problem.  The problem is solved without Fire/Ice through Time Walk or Multiple Togs.  The sideboard is really tight without having to squeeze another card in.  Granted, I would like to see Fire/Ice in the SB since its great vs aggro and killing Welders, the room just isn't there.

I have also heard from Landstill players that they do not side in Mazes vs tog... they just need too many other cards.  I don't know if thats the general case, but if it is, than the protection from Maze is quite a bit lower since landstill was the main deck running Maze.

[Smmenen]

Cutting for 4th Tog - WHat do you want to cut for the 4th Tog.  So Far I think the options are Mox Pearl or Mystical Tutor - but I'd rather not cut either.  The deck has plenty of colorless mana with mana crypt and moxen and Library.  Recall that the ORIGINAL Hulk Smash only had 21 mana sources and it never had any mana problems, I don't understand why this would.

Re; Strip Mine.  What is the function or reasoning behind using Strip Mine?  Why have it and Wastelands in the first place?  There is really only a few poor reasons IMO.  You cannot gain tempo for Wastes or Strips because that only happens when you return the game state to the previous turn.  The only function of Strip/Waste is to a) mana screw your opponent or b) stem the flow of threats, or c) a few small other minor uses such as stopping Bazaar or maze of Ith.   Ifr you are playing them for reason c, then they are a SB card.  If you are playing them for reasons b) that is ineffective because most decks have sufficient mana or have built around Wasteland.  If you are playing them for reason a) then you are playing 5 cards in a 60 card deck on the off chance that you'll win one game out of 20 becuase you randomly screw your opponent.  

Frankly, I think they are a poor choice for Tog, as opposed to Keeper which actually plays LD to try and stem the flow of threats and enhance board domination.  This deck doesn't need to do that.  It can answer threats just by playing a Tog.  The only remaining reason to run Wastes/Strips is you want more mana - and I think that is one of the worst reasons of all.

Just to elaborate on my point about playing Combo against Aggro, Aggro against Control, and Control against Combo.....
Most of the good aggro decks: TnT and Big O are sufficiently aggressive, but also board heavy tht Deed can actually ruin their day to such a degree that you can then try and play control.  This sometimes happens, but alot of the time it does not.  When it does not, you need to be able to win ASAP.  Thus Tog + Berserk is the key.  This means the deck has built in flexibility - which is a GOOD thing.  You can play both Control OR Aggro and thus be have solved "who's the beatdown."  By the same token, against Control, while I prefer to be the beatdown, sometimes you can get forced into the control position and prefer to play it becuase you can exploit great opportunities such as Library of Alexandria, etc.  Point is, its not all or nothing and the built in flexibility makes this deck only more likely to win - either way it can.

Stephen Menendian

[Mage of Dreams]

Cutting Tog - WHat do you want to cut for the 4th Tog. So Far I think the options are Mox Pearl or Mystical Tutor - but I'd rather not cut either. The deck has plenty of colorless mana with mana crypt and moxen and Library. Recall that the ORIGINAL Hulk Smash only had 21 mana sources and it never had any mana problems, I don't understand why this would.

What to cut is the question, if I had to choose between Pearl and Mystical, I think the Pearl would be the one. But I don't like that option either. Even though I often felt like I was working to find the Tog at times thats not always a bad thing, all that draw and search just helps feed him once you do get him resolved.

Like I said I always had the mana I needed, but again Wasteland wasn't a factor in my testing session. It seems like it would have a hard time recovering from any standard 5 Strip Package. But until I get a chance to deal with one it's only a guess.

Re; Strip Mine. What is the function or reasoning behind using Strip Mine? Why have it and Wastelands in the first place? There is really only a few poor reasons IMO. You cannot gain tempo for Wastes or Strips because that only happens when you return the game state to the previous turn. The only function of Strip/Waste is to a) mana screw your opponent or b) stem the flow of threats, or c) a few small other minor uses such as stopping Bazaar or maze of Ith. Ifr you are playing them for reason c, then they are a SB card. If you are playing them for reasons b) that is ineffective because most decks have sufficient mana or have built around Wasteland. If you are playing them for reason a) then you are playing 5 cards in a 60 card deck on the off chance that you'll win one game out of 20 becuase you randomly screw your opponent.

Frankly, I think they are a poor choice for Tog, as opposed to Keeper which actually plays LD to try and stem the flow of threats and enhance board domination. This deck doesn't need to do that. It can answer threats just by playing a Tog. The only remaining reason to run Wastes/Strips is you want more mana - and I think that is one of the worst reasons of all.

I pretty much agree here. If you play the Strips you would want to keep them for mana over using them and there is no need for more colorless mana. Again, I think my only oposistion to them not being there is purly a comfort thing, which I'll get over after playing the deck more.

I would like to know, Steve, if you have tested Stifle at all? Between stopping Strips, Maze, and any number of things it seems like a possibility. The problem may be again that it's more of a control card then is wanted. Even then you would want at least two and trying to find room for one is a bitch. Either way I'd like to hear your thoughts.

Shawn

[Smmenen]

Yes, I have tested Stifle.  I think its use is too narrow to use effectively, and even worse, it cuts down on the strong number of really effective cards I've added to this deck.  One of the plays with Stifle was to complement the land destruction.  I see no purpose is this decks design for Stifle at all.  It is possible that one Stifle could be used as a randomly utiltiy card.  Singletons are good in Tog.  But I see nothing compelling enough to use that.

Steve

[jazzykat]

First off forgive me if I don't quite understand the new tog so much, but after reading it, it seems that the mana crypt/sol ring may be able to be cut for the fourth tog. I can see that the deck might like it a lot due to intuitions, and cunning wishes but if the crypt/ring was so important then why not run both and cut the pearl?

Just my thoughts on the idea, (NOTE: I hate playing off color moxen in anything but the most hardcore combo decks, MUD(brown ), and maybe mono blue)

JK

[Godot]

The deck is built in order to Goldfish as QUICKLY as possible.

Adding the 4th Tog is clearly in line with this principle, but cutting either the Pearl or Mystical for it seems wrong.  You'll need fast permanent mana to develop quickly enough to combo out, and whatever you get with Mystical will, for all intents and purposes, usually win you the game.

To make room for the 4th Tog I would move Mind Twist to the SB.  This card feels anti-ethical to the stated purpose of the deck, and in the minority of matchups where you will be playing control it can come back in.