Smmenen's Hulk Smash 2K4

[Smmenen]

This was something I thought was just assumed, and thus unstated.  One reason to play this deck is that you get the very cream of the crop that blue based control decks have to offer in terms of card quality.  Mind Twist is a tremendously powerful card and has won me more than my share of games randomly.  I think in a deck like this that abuses Mana Drian so savagely Mind Twist is simply uncuttable.  Furthermore, it is a bomb in the control matchup.

Steve

[Jakedasnake]

Your build has really stricken me as 'good'. However, the deck just seems like it would roll over and die if you couldn't stay in the late game.

You've got no strip effects to remove a Library or Bazaar, both which can mean game over if in play for a couple of turns.

Also, like previously stated, Maze of Ith is the prime choice for Fish after sideboarding. But you have almost no way to stop it. How has this affected you?

Don't get me wrong, I love the deck. However, how is this strategy better than playing the game safe and in semi-control, then just winning? Is two-three turns really worth it?

[Thissa]

Yes, sorry, when I mentioned the maze of ith I was thinking of the deck I play, Fish. At least in Mono-Blue Fish, it looks like you might have a very hard time. Rootwater Thieves that resolve probably won't get all 3 of your Psychatogs, but it's pretty common for them to nab 2. If you only have 1-2 Psychatogs left and they have 1-2 Mazes of Ith out, you may have a problem as your only answer left is Time Walk, and you may even have to use both Time Walk and Yawgmoth's will to get a direct hit on the Fish player. If they happen to have Waterfront Bouncer, it gets even harder. Then again, with the rise of so much aggro Mono-Blue fish hasn't been that prevailent. In an O filled meta though, this deck looks very very nice...

[Pliskin]

Question from a noob: Why don't play 2-3 Berserk?? They aren't restricted anymore! What's the reason for not playing more than 1 Berserk?

[-SuperPoPo-]

Side is not the max can be improved...

Question from a noob: Why don't play 2-3 Berserk?? They aren't restricted anymore! What's the reason for not playing more than 1 Berserk?

Have you ever heard talking about cunning wish.....

Double post merged. Next time, use the edit function.
-Jacob

[jazzykat]

Side is not the max can be improved...

Question from a noob: Why don't play 2-3 Berserk?? They aren't restricted anymore! What's the reason for not playing more than 1 Berserk?

Have you ever heard talking about cunning wish.....

Double post merged. Next time, use the edit function.
-Jacob

OK let me extrapalate a little. Playing 3 cunning wishes Main Deck allow you to effectively play 3 of any one thing in your side board, as far  probability to draw it goes. The upside is that your deck is tighter and more resilient(more options for answers), while the down sided is that whatever you want to play has an added casting cost of U2 (which is at least instant).

Furthermore, using berserk for the kill is not always necessary ( but is much more so with this build, than control builds which usually have a long game and bigger graveyard anyway.)

[BreathWeapon]

It looks really good from the few games i've played with it. I never pulled the Mana Crypt, so I really can't comment on how great it is. However, doesn't the presence of Mana Crypt restrict the decks ability to shift from Aggro-Control in the middle of a game ... or does that not even matter?

[jazzykat]

OK. I just finished playtesting this deck against mono-green LD and a bad burn deck. That is all that was around tonight.

All that I can say is wow! My friend playing the monogreen LD kept saying that he had bad draws and hands. Maybe he did, but the deck was amazing. 22 land worked most of the time, and for anyone who didn't play with mana crypt don't knock it till you try it, it is sooo good. Especialy for fetching sideboard cards with wishes(chalice =o, and goddam powder kegs). Does one mana make a difference over sol ring. I can safely say yes, when people are blowing up your land, like its going out of style.  Don't worry about damage, you will kill them first (I know that sounds nuts but steve is right).

Gush is a neat trick to dance around waste lands. Getting the wish for crumble/oxidize to nail the chalice for 0 is key, because 7 of your mana sources almost a third of your deck cast for that. Oh, and my buddy boas-and -apes has taken to MD root maze in his deck. ARgggghhh, how annoying, he can blow up my land before I can use it to search and find more.

Against the burn deck: it had MD POP's, ankhs, monkeys, scrolls and scepters with bolts, incinerate, chains and shrapnel blasts. Nothing else worried me, tog was too fast for them, but one pop could be like game over. Ankhs sucked when I had fetchies but I tried to brainstorm them away, or play them before ankh hit.

My dilemna: the deck is so damn strong that I could make small mistakes and pull out wins and sometimes I play too much like a control player, leaving mana drain mana open vs. a phantom win condition instead of AKing for more during my opponents end step. My problem is that I just don't want to be randomly killed by a POP, with 2 drains in my hand. I still win most of the games, but I think that I am misunderstanding when I should be trying to go off like a combo deck (ie balls to the wall) or when I should take it a little more easy, get out my tog and win when the time is right.

NOTE: I am not worried about random decks but more how to identify the control, or combo role. Any insight is appreciated, because this deck seems like it can do either very, very well. I just wouldn't want the game going tooo late as decks with bizarres, or that like lots of mana (ahem..keeper) will have a noticeable advantage over
Thanks,
Francesco

[Mixing Mike]

All that I can say is wow! My friend playing the monogreen LD kept saying that he had bad draws and hands. Maybe he did, but the deck was amazing. 22 land worked most of the time, and for anyone who didn't play with mana crypt don't knock it till you try it, it is sooo good. Especialy for fetching sideboard cards with wishes(chalice =o, and goddam powder kegs). Does one mana make a difference over sol ring. I can safely say yes, when people are blowing up your land, like its going out of style.  Don't worry about damage, you will kill them first (I know that sounds nuts but steve is right).

NOTE: I am not worried about random decks but more how to identify the control, or combo role. Any insight is appreciated, because this deck seems like it can do either very, very well. I just wouldn't want the game going tooo late as decks with bazaars, or that like lots of mana (ahem..keeper) will have a noticeable advantage over.
Thanks,
Francesco

Just another one to agree with Mana Crypt.  Team Mean Deck always thinks outside the lines, and I love you all for it.

Vs. most of the control decks, I'm playing aggro with counterspells, using Drain to steal some mana for a game swinging play the following turn.  I find myself making sure Welders and Metalworkers stay off the table vs. any from of Prison with some help from Duress, and then just racing them with AK's and Tutors.  Vs. most aggro decks I tutor up a Tog and/or Deed and just ride to victory.  TnT is a diffrent story, if I allow them to get too much board position on me, then I dig out a Deed and go crazy with AK's.  Otherwise I'll usually play it like any other control matchup.  The only time I ever really use the full control aspect of the deck is when I'm playing combo.  I usually stay alive untill I can get Mana Drain online, and use Duress to it's fullest effect.  Keeping a Deed on the table vs, Dragon to pop at two forces them to win with an animate effect AND Necromany.  I found that most of the time you'll be able to race them untill they reach the required mana to go off with some back up.

[jazzykat]

thanks mike!
I have been gold fishing and here is something that I think should be stated although it is pretty obvious: Use your mana fully. i.e. unless you really need to keep drain mana open(or are looking for that boost). Also, i have found that playing draw spells on your turn, is sometimes a good thing, as it allows you to drop an extra mox and play a tog sometimes (very situational but being a control player at heart, I found it hard to cast my instants when they weren't eot, but that sometimes means I win a turn faster (finding tog to drop, or a needed landdrop(black mana) etc). Obviously it depends on the matchup, and that is what I am trying to get more experience with.


Just my thoughts, I need real life opponents, although I have to think that this deck just smashes most of them (if I play it right).

[jsg7440]

I hate to just be one of those mindless people screaming about a card, but I must say this...

...Isochron Scepter may have a place in Hulk.  I played a tournament this last weekend using Hulk w/Iso, and I did fairly well with it.  The Iso's allowed me to do sick and twisted things to my opponent.  I have yet to test it out more, but early estimates show this to be a decent card for the different Tog decks out there.

[BreathWeapon]

A pair of scepters is never a bad investment in any control deck, Keeper/Hulk/GAT. If the stix didn't have such awful synery with Pernicious Deed i'd use them in a heart beat, but Deed is simply far more important. They might make a good sb option tho'.

[jazzykat]

RE: Isochron scepters- I do not believe that this deck's plan is to have a late game (Steve please correct me if I am wrong). You can just combo the poor bastards out, I have been goldfishing around turn 5 (and I am klutz with combo) with heavy coutner+duress back up. I just don't feel scepter (somewhat situational and as said before: destroyed by deed) is nescessary or warranted. Just get BIZZERK with your tog as you smash face!

Scepter is an investment in cards and tempo I am not willing to wait to get it back....I want it NOW!

If I can playtest against real decks I will try it out though, just to make sure.

[xzero]

I have playtested some against monoblue fish, and I am in love with Deed, and would even consider upping it to 2 or 3 in the maindeck.  Granted, this would be meta dependant, but in the right metagame it would be downright broken.

1. Deed away nonland permanents
2. Draw cards
3. Psychatog
4. Berserk

That is the game plan for Hulk, and is an excellent strategy.

[jpmeyer]

Or you can just remove step one

[Mixing Mike]

Sticks are bad in Hulk because it costs 2 mana.  For 2 mana I'd rather play an AK, Brainstorms, Mana Drain, Merchant Scroll, Time Walk, Mystical Tutor, Demonic Tutor, etc...  It's also much to slow, and turns the deck away from it's orginal gameplan of just drawing cards, then beating you down with that monster mommy always told you wasn't there.

Besides, you have an immidiate loss of two cards from your hand, and that's 3 damage folks, or 6 with a Berserk.

[twn_domn]

No matter how you slice/examine the list, it's just good all around.  Can't go wrong w/ his deck list.

[Abhorsen105]

I was a bit sceptical about tog as a combo deck at first, but I tried out  a version very similar at a tournament and was amazed. I was paired up against two mono-red decks and managed to combo out before they could kill me. I was a bit disapointed with xantid swarm, but I might have been playing them wrong. Also, has anyone done testing against revenge of mephistophles? It was the one deck I lost to all day and I'm curious what to do against it.
Thanks,
Sam

[Smmenen]

yeah, swarm is questionable.  Glad you liked it.  What tournament?


Steve

[Abhorsen105]

I played it at the Hadley tournament for a jet on Valentines day. I lost to Dave in the semifinals.

[Grand Inquisitor]

@Abhorsen105, I'm guessing it was the chains of meph that won it for Eastman?  I playtested with Brian, and that seemed to be the only card besides future sight that I really worried about.  It wasn't as much of a walk as regular keeper, but it certainly wasn't unfavorable.

@Smennen, the swarms look really questionable to me, especially since I really can't picture how you'd sideboard them in.  The only thing they come in against is control, right?  In these matchups (Keeper, mirror, Landstill, Fish, GAT, Control Slaver), the only cards that might be sub-optimal from the maindeck are:

Mind Twist (against MisD heavy decks)
Gush (against decks without strips)
Merchant Scroll (if its too much of a mainphase commitment)
Cunning Wish (if you don't need the utility i.e. mirror)
Psychatog (if you choose to go for the slow kill, or against decks not running AKs)
AK #4 (mirror, GAT)

Am I viewing these scenarios correctly?  Would you mind posting your sideboarding against various decks?

[Abhorsen105]

Game 1 I lost to future sight. Game 2 I lost to dampening matrix and future sight, although you could argue I lost to chains because thats what I naturalized instead of the sight, probably an error. I was planning on a huge yawg will next turn playing back the naturalize on his future sight with the xantid swarm to protect me, I forgot that his version ran hand destruction (mind twist)  .

[Smmenen]

@Smennen, the swarms look really questionable to me, especially since I really can't picture how you'd sideboard them in.  The only thing they come in against is control, right?  In these matchups (Keeper, mirror, Landstill, Fish, GAT, Control Slaver), the only cards that might be sub-optimal from the maindeck are:

Mind Twist (against MisD heavy decks)
Gush (against decks without strips)
Merchant Scroll (if its too much of a mainphase commitment)
Cunning Wish (if you don't need the utility i.e. mirror)
Psychatog (if you choose to go for the slow kill, or against decks not running AKs)
AK #4 (mirror, GAT)

Am I viewing these scenarios correctly?  Would you mind posting your sideboarding against various decks?

I'll be addressing all of these issues in a very comprehensive upcoming article.  Can you wait until then?

Steve

[Dr. Sylvan]

***SPEAK NOW UNTO THE TMD ORACLE***

I'll be addressing all of these issues in a very comprehensive upcoming article.  Can you wait until then?

TMD ORACLE: "'No' means 'yes' and 'yes' means 'right away'."

[zero]

I don't like the swarms, because they force you to try to cast spells during your own turn rather than during their endstep. They annoy your opponents, but don't screw them like a back to basics does. I like the B2B better against multicolored control, though it forces you to be a control deck for a little while in that matchup. Gush is OK because once in a while it speeds up your kills, but half the time I seem to dump big mana drain (2 or 3) mana into it and hard cast it because I don't have anything else to dump mana into (my last 6 matches, only saw intuition once). I've been pleasantly surprised at the MD pernicious deed, though the stifles in chains-keeper may make it less of a threat to their low casting cost permanents.

[BreathWeapon]

Deed should have been in the MD from day 1, its easily the single most important card against Prison and even more so if you have decided to cut Red.

How are the 22 Mana Sources holding up for you guys?

[Ultima]

Too little in my opinion, while Steve plays on 22 and Meyer plays 24, I have been happy with 23 and gush MD.  There has not been a problem thus far with mana at 23.