power 9

[THENATE]

i feel that power is very important on t1. so how many of you actually own any ( not the library)? how important do you feel the power 9 is now in the current metagame ( now that new budget decks r coming out)?

[jazzykat]

How important is it?

Power lets you go faster, than the budget aggro for instance Smmenen's new combo tog and his long. There are workshop.dec's that accelerate like a bat out of hell using not only jewlery but workshops, dropping sphere of resistance, tangle wires, and stacks on first and second turns. Good combo decks simply kill, aggro. You deal 15 points to them by the third turn, then they go off and combo you out (TPS or dragon). If your hate is effective Null rod, monkey, chalice=0 etc. then you may win because you slowed them down enough, but they will win on the sheer speed of their deck provided by the jewlery and the deck's construction.

OK, so that is combo decks now what about control. Mono U need the moxes to get a mana leak and a force ready on the first turn. Keeper, just play keeper without moxes let me know if you think it is a good deck (hard to explain how crummy it runs without them against good decks.)

So I just ranted about acceleration, how about ancestral. If you can't figure that out then I am going to kick you in the crotch. 3 cards - U and 1 card = definition of broken (maybe reserved for ywin!)

Time walk: I don't own it. In tog it seems to be quasi essential to effectively haste the toothy bastard. In other decks I am sure it is good by letting you play a big sorcery and tapping out, to untap and be ready or something, they dont' call it power for nothing.

Timetwister: situational. Draw 7 cards when you want and get back yourstuff is very powerful especially with important restricted combo pieces. Other people can explain why it is good much better than I.


Well you can play decks without it, but let me give you an idea of the brokeness you are capable of with power.
An actual opening hand (just last night): tog, lotus, jet, ancesral, underground, duress, brainstorm?

First turn play:
draw something
play underground, lotus, jet
jet duress
lotus blue: ancestral,
undergroun for black: tog with extra lotus mana

Ummm....it was game over homey by the 3 rd. turn (found my cunning wish for the zerk, and had to waste all my land.) , for a nasty burn deck with ankh stuff.

I own:
1 Lotus
2 Ancestrals
1 Sapphire
1 Jet
1 Emerald
1 Time twister

[thoughts]
I hate playing budget except for gay red, which is funny. I feel that budget limits me to plays and styles that are reminiscent if not straight up borrowed from 1.5(very obvious exceptions, are MD null rods and gorilla shamans (screw you mox haters ).

I believe that T1 is about the power and just doing the most broken stuff you can, it is about being cool and hotdogging it(ie mindtwisting someones hand away on the second turn with drain mana and a lotus etc.), and there is nothing that can let you do it better than the power. There isn't a lot of money in the format, and it costs a ton to get into it (power wise) so you had better love it, otherwise the other formats may be more for you.
[/thoughts]

My explanation then my rant:
JK

[Petko]

My position on the importance of Power10 in Vintage is that it will limit the amount of decks you can play but will in NO WAY limit your ability to compete.

This is one of the biggest misconceptions about T1; the idea that you can only play if you own the Power10 cards. Of course, you won't be able able to play decks such as wMUD, Keeper, and other decks requiring most, if not all, of the Power. However, there are other decks that can run fine without Power.

Fish is by far the best example of a competitive budget deck that I can think of, although there are numerous others. Although Ancestral and Time Walk help the deck, there is so much card drawing through Standstills and Curiosities that they aren't needed. In fact, you're essentially running 4 Ancestrals in the deck already. Although the absence of Time Walk hurts a bit, as you lose the opportunity of another attack phase and drawing even more cards off the Curiosities, the deck still runs so smooth.

Please don't let this false notion discourage you; some budget decks can be really competitive!

And to answer your first question, I do own the Power. But I usually find myself lending it out to people while I play Fish!

[THENATE]

This is one of the biggest misconceptions about T1; the idea that you can only play if you own the Power10 cards. Of course, you won't be able able to play decks such as wMUD, Keeper, and other decks requiring most, if not all, of the Power. However, there are other decks that can run fine without Power.

Mud and keeper are two of the best decks in the format. so not being able to play those does hurt your ability to play in serious tournements. The decks that run ok without power are not as fast or consistent as the ones fully powered.

Please try to refrain from using dumb abvreviations, thanks.

[nietzreznor]

The Power 9 always have been, and always will be, the backbone of t1 decks.  That doesn't mean you can't ever win without them.  But many decks in t1 just cannot be played effectively without power, and many 'budget decks' just are not tier one.

[LotusHead]

I have had, through trading in the Magic heyday of the early 90s, three moxen, a timewalk, a lotus and a library of alexandria.  as of 2000, I have all 5 moxen, the timewalk lotus and library.  In these parts, I am the only one to STILL have their power.  For the longest time, the moxen were always in my "Tumor Deck" (if you dont cut it down quick, it just grows and grows. Based on verderan enchantress, green duals and the dark heart of the woods.)

I am now trying to use my power for my Thulsa Doom deck, poison creatures, longbows, pemmims aura.  Skrew establised deck archetypes!  (except dragon, fish, and stompy.  Always part of my arsenal)

[BreathWeapon]

I've always felt the Moxen are double edged. While its true they provide retardedly broken effects for several decks, they do have their weaknesses; Null Rod, Gorilla Shaman and Chalice for 0. The same can be said for Non-Basics, Wastelands and Bloodmoon, and Fetch Lands, Stifle.

I think thats one of the reasons Fish/Landstill does so well, when the Tier 1 decks have such predictable manabases it turns them into a target for Hate of all kinds. Nothing in Magic is more effective than eliminating your opponents manabase, IMO.

Time Walk and Ancestral Recall are just broken. I can't see any reason you wouldn't play with them.

Timetwister is trash IMO. I say we vote that Yawgmoth's Will takes its place amongst the P9.

[Ifflejink]

I don't think that power 9/10 are necassary, but they do help decks significantly. Right now, duals are more important and cheaper. The same goes for Psychatog, Survival, and many cards in Workshop decks. Also, play skill and tech can easily be answers to power, as Gorilla Shaman and Fish have demonstrated. BTW, I don't own power or duals. :lol:

[Petko]

This is one of the biggest misconceptions about T1; the idea that you can only play if you own the Power10 cards. Of course, you won't be able able to play decks such as wMUD, Keeper, and other decks requiring most, if not all, of the Power. However, there are other decks that can run fine without Power.

mud and keeper r 2 of the best decks in the format. so not being able to play those does hurt ur ability to play in serious tournements. the decks that run ok without power r not as fast or consistent as the ones fully powered.

And something like Fish isn't?

[rvs]

to answer the main question really shortly: Power is what makes you win tournaments.

[BrokenDeck]

When looking at budget decks, you really need to look at the metagame.  Example, just two or three months ago, people were saying budget was dead because it couldn't handle long, wMud, keeper, or tog.  Now, budget is all the rage.  Why?  The answer is simple: Budget got knocked out of the metagame, so all the powered decks starting taking out anti-aggro cards.  Now all the powered  decks are so tuned to beat nothing but each other, that budget aggro stands a chance again.  In a couple of months, the powered decks will be ready to handle an onslaught of aggro, and it will get hated out of the environment.

So basically, budget is viable about half the time.

[Smash]

Power makes more decks available to you. Keeper is just stupid without power. Fish on the other hand, can run just fine.

The brokenness of them is a large part of why I like type 1 so much. Being broken is fun

I currently have 13 of the p9, including alpha emerald, walk, and recalls. P9 is always good.

[jazzykat]

to answer the main question really shortly: Power is what makes you win tournaments.

What he said ^, as my conclusion. Really, look at the winner of a relatively large tourney, and if you can find a non-powered deck besides that crazy green lando in Deutchelande, as the winner in a sea of power post it up here.

[rvs]

The whole deal is, that unpowered decks CAN post good results. So can parfait. In case you didn't understand this, it means that ANY deck can have a good day, good draw, or whatever else makes you win your local tournament, however, the odds of a powered deck doing that are higher, and the odds of a powered deck getting that result on multiple occasions are MUCH, MUCH higher.

[The M.E.T.H.O.D]

I always like to see buget decks kick ass, but having power makes it easier for you to win.


I currently own:
5 Moxes
1 Time Walk
1 LIbrary

Decent Stuff:
4 Drains
1 Berserk

I feel that if a person wants it enough, he can get power without putting in a huge investmant, I might post something about it later.

[Diddler]

I was fully powered until a few months ago.  The card prices jumped too high for me to keep the cards; I sold them for at least twice as much as I bought them for...  Now I keep a Beta Mox Jet and a Black Lotus for my Sui deck.

Having power makes your deck, well, more powerful.  They have that name for a reason.

[rgbeatskeeper]

Timetwister is not power 9 well it shouldn't be, its good like maybe in two decks and both of those decks runs minds desire. The 9th power should be Library.

[Ric_Flair]

First off, there is no reason to play decks that would be optimal but for the lack of power.  Most Vintage events are 5 proxy tournaments, so make the best deck you can, building around the 5 power cards you need but don't have.  Budget builders should ALWAYS keep this in mind.  There are quite a few GOOD deck that need only 5 power.  New Stompy really needs only the Lotus and 4 Bazaars.  GAT needs 4 Moxlotus, 1 Library, 1 Time Walk, and 1 Ancestral.  Everyone out there should be able to afford one of those cards.   I think the deck can even be played without the Library and not lose a massive amount of power.  Many other decks are much the same way.  Just choose a deck that you can build with the 5 proxy concept in mind.

Second, Power is required.  There is no doubt in my mind that without Power a deck is weaker.  Without Yawg Will your deck is weaker.  Take both of these away and you have virtually no chance at winning over the long run when playing decks that do run power.  Here is the scenario: You could steal a win here and there, but all too often the decks with Power and Will will just reap the MASSIVE advantages those cards have individually and in combination with each other.  They will wear down the non-Powered decks with sheer efficiency.  Decks that purposely don't run power are almost uniformly terrible.  Those that don't but could, should.  There is just no way around it, Power is REQUIRED to do well over the long haul, especially with the rise of Chalice, which killed the best budget deck, Goblins.

Finally, I was once entirely unpowered too, but it was a matter of 2 months and I acquired 4 pieces, Drains, and all but Volcanics.  It was a matter of CONSTANTLY looking for deals, combining resources, and carefully managing my card stock.  I sold mass commons and bulk rares to dealers, I traded up constantly, and I eventually found some cash and got stuff cheap.  That is what you have to do.  Either that, or play 1.5, which is actually a hell of a lot of fun.

[Razvan]

Timetwister is not power 9 well it shouldn't be, its good like maybe in two decks and both of those decks runs minds desire. The 9th power should be Library.

Jeez... I am sick of people badmouthing Timetwister. Everyone gets tight in the pants because Ancestral draws 3 cards for 1 mana. This draws 7 for 3. How can that be not broken?

And yes, I know your opponent draws up to 7 too... but this is Type 1... you should make that irrelevant anyhow...

[Ric_Flair]

Timetwister is not power 9 well it shouldn't be, its good like maybe in two decks and both of those decks runs minds desire. The 9th power should be Library.

Jeez... I am sick of people badmouthing Timetwister. Everyone gets tight in the pants because Ancestral draws 3 cards for 1 mana. This draws 7 for 3. How can that be not broken?

And yes, I know your opponent draws up to 7 too... but this is Type 1... you should make that irrelevant anyhow...

Okay, I am not sure how many times this needs to be explained, but in a format in which control is the center a card like Timetwister has a very narrow utility, namely as an uber Impluse in combo.  In any other deck the possibility of random problems being drawn into are too great.  Rhetoric however is not the solution to this debate, performance is.  No non-combo deck has used Timetwister and won a major format event in a long time.  It is just not up to snuff and generates too many random problems.

[DavidHernandez]

regarding the need for power cards, i agree with MoreFling and Ric_Flair.  Power cards are a requirement.

but, how many of the power are actually required is a different thing altogether.  

you can build a Gay-r Fish deck with the following power cards:

Ancestral Recall
Time Walk
Mox Sapphire
Library of Alexandria

Yes, it's a lot of money, but the deck consistently wins or finishes in the finals at major (or large) tournaments and events.

You might even be able to get away without the Time Walk.  So, $500 would make you VERY competitive.  

As mentioned by others previously, T1 Sanctioned is rare, so you can probably find a tournament that allows 5 proxies.  Don't get discouraged by thinking that a full set of power is required.

Another deck that can rock with only ONE piece of power is Nether Void with a Mox Jet.  A Black Lotus is nice, but not absolutely required.  Nether Voids are a little expensive, but you might be able to get them for trade, or on eBay, or in Italian for under $25 each, and you would need 3.

you can even play the version with 4 Sphere of Resistance instead of the Voids, and if you can put up the cash, pick up a Lotus, which again would bring you to $500 or $550 (Lotus plus Mox Jet).

Landstill and UrPhid variants are also good choices for low powered, high-finishing decks.

All that said, let me say again that Power Cards are required to truly compete in T1.

--Dave.

[kirdape3]

To my knowledge only Mike Pustilnik runs Twister in his Keeper builds still.  And, well, he'll win because he's simply better than almost everyone else in the format.  That being said, Timetwister is one of the most degenerate design mistakes in the entire history of Magic.  Getting 2U then refilling your hand with more threats is far beyond anything reasonable.

On the original topic:  Power is the only way to make a deck that isn't built around the idea of a mana line (most red builds, most older green builds) fast enough to compete with the brutally efficient decks that characterize the upper echelons of this format.  You're not going to win as a control deck without the ability to defeat MUD's first turn Sphere or TnT's first turn Juggernaut.  You simply can't make a resilient combo fast enough to matter without them.  And you can't make the best aggro decks (TnT, Vengeur Masque) without several if not all of the power cards.

[Jhaggs]

Finally, I was once entirely unpowered too, but it was a matter of 2 months and I acquired 4 pieces, Drains, and all but Volcanics.  It was a matter of CONSTANTLY looking for deals, combining resources, and carefully managing my card stock.  I sold mass commons and bulk rares to dealers, I traded up constantly, and I eventually found some cash and got stuff cheap.  That is what you have to do.  Either that, or play 1.5, which is actually a hell of a lot of fun.

Players can overcome their "unpowered-ness" but you really have to be committed.  Ric said it best and it needs to be said again, you have to be a freaking hawk when it comes to deals.  Keep in mind that I am not necessarily speaking about power 9 deals (although that's nice as well).  Unfortunatly, its tough to win power without power.  Any tournament in which a power card is the main prize, you'll face some tough competition.  Even with a 5 proxy deck, you'll more than likely be facing someone who has the ability to run more power cards than you.  Morefling hit the nail on the head that you CAN win these tournaments but your chances are clearly not as high as someone is is running at an optimal level.

Now getting back to being a hawk, you must have an "ALWAYS BE CLOSING" mentality.  I won't go Alec Bladwin on this post but make deals that will enable you to trade up.  Go to garage sales, go to flea markets, sell grab bags, dump commons and uncommons for rares, sell cards that you don't use on ebay, do what it takes to increase the overall value and size of your collection.  You don't need 3,000 dollars to buy the power 9.  What you do need is some balls, and some moxy.  People give away cards or sell them away at bargain prices just to get rid of them in order to create space in their garage.  Trust me, there are whales out their just wanting to hand you their collection...you just need the guts to take a well-informed risk.  Myself and a close friend of mine just bought an enormous collection of cards that we fully intend to resell on ebay.  We both will easily make our money back and be able to buy a full set of power, and possibly some hookers [/joke] assuming magic is still viable over the next year.  It took us 3 months of looking everywhere to locate someone trying to dump their collection, but we finally found a seller with a collection large enough to make a serious profit of off.  Keep in mind that our goal was always to turn profits into power without having to spend our money on it.  Of course it takes some effort, but for us its worth it.    Hunt for these deals and turn then into a profit.  More people that I know of acquire power because the hussle not because their loaded with the bling.

[Ric_Flair]

Here is my "Closing" tip to everyone.  A free be if you will.  This is a patented, trade secret.  

Check ebay on Saturday mornings around 8am.  I have found two really ridiculous deals there.  They were both for power and both had BIN.  The thing is that guys that are giving up the game for grown up reasons have a penchant for posting stuff on Friday night/Saturday morning.  They are also likely to use the BIN because they want cash fast.  This is the way I got two pieces.

And now you know one of the patented, fast and easy ways to acquire power.

[Plainswalker]

Having power is not always needed even though many others seem to think so. Blood Moon, Null Rod and the other hate cards are not nearly as powerful vs you if your running a mono-colored deck. A great example is Slavery. Null Road rips it up, but it's blood moon won't do anything to you (i think the deck is being adjusted, just using it as an example) The Mindslaver would do very little to you if you were playing say Sui-Black. My goblins deck is very fun to play, and I love it because people don't expect it. I've prepared it for whats around right now and it does fine. If you don't think Goblins is fine still either, look at Morphling.de, I think for a little while there were tons of goblin decks still showing up in the T8's. Playing hate.dec is what keeps the meta healthy and keeps people on there toes.