[Deck] Food Chain Goblins (Budget Combo Goblins)

[Vegeta2711]

Godzilla requested that I make a thread for you guys to post on FCG, so here it is. Besides it is a budget deck.

FCG thread on the archived T1 board.
http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4347

FCG thread on the T1 board.
http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9100

FCG thread on The Source 1.5 board
http://grexin.shonic.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?s=9b9343b3e614c77462524a344ea8c800;act=ST;f=6;t=23

FCG has also most recently come in 5th at a large tourney in Paris, but I don't currently have a link for the listing. You can find it at morphling.de though.

My current builds. One with strips and another w/o.

//NAME: Goblin Chains (Budget)
// Mana
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Chrome Mox
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
2 Ancient Tomb
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
5 Mountain
// Combo Card
4 Food Chain
// Creatures
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
2 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Goblin Matron
3 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Recruiter
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Skirk Prospector
4 Goblin Lackey
// Sideboard
SB: 4 REB / Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 Naturalize
SB: 3 Artifact Mutation
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Gempalm Incinerator

The No Strip build (Mana changes suggested by Godzilla)
-5 Strips

+1 Mountain
+1 Ancient Tomb
+2 Bloodstained Mire
+1 Random card. (Yeah I haven't decided and since the current build changed drastically from my last non wasteland build, I'm unsure what to add in the last slot.)

The basic combo

Use Recruiter to stack your library, putting Ringleaders every 4th card and then play Ringleaders to put about 13 other goblins in your hand.

Use Food Chain to sac. Recruiter to power the first Ringleader into play and then keep saccing the old Ringleader to play the new one. Then do various tricks with your Goblins and Food Chain to drop various amounts of critters into play and swing. The result is usually is between 50-200 points of damage that can still get through despite multiple fire/plows/etc.

Even stuff like Moat and cycled Decree tokens can be worked around thanks to SGC and Goblin Sharpshooter. You can straight up shoot your opponent for 20-30 points of damage after comboing out.

Mods to the Mana Base
I found 4 Ancient Tomb were too many and I was simply taking too much pain from them for little effect. 2 is working all right for me right now, but 3 is also a good amount and at the moment I'm unsure which is superior.

Changes to make if you have power
Obviously you can make some changes if you have some of the P9 on you. A Mox Ruby and Emerald would make their way into the deck, as well as Black Lotus. Interestingly enough you can choose to run all the SoLoMoxen and simply cut Ancient Tomb entirely and a Warchief for the extra 3 Moxen. I haven’t tested this sort of build really, since I’ve mostly focused on the budget and the Ruby/Emerald/Lotus version.

The main differences mind you, are you'll go off a little faster then you normally would. And Lotus espically helps, as it's like running a better Mana Crypt in the deck. 1st turn Food Chain is good times.

What are the differences in running strips against not running them?
Running 5 strips makes your backup plan of straight goblin beatdown more effective and helps your control matches considerably by being able to stall for more time. The downsides to this are increased mulligans for the deck and slightly less consistent goldfishing. This is seen drastically in the 1.5 version, but in the T1 version I haven't had as many issues with it.

It comes down to which you feel is more important in the deck.

Sideboard
Run Chalice if you seen combo or run REB for help in the control match. If you see 0 Dragon you can cut Crypt’s and run both and with the increasing hate for Dragon, you may not see the deck around much longer. The last Gempalm Incinerator has also been placed there against the resurgence of aggro green and TnT decks. Though your main option is still to combo them out, sometimes this is unfeasible and the removal really helps out.

Blood Moon has been another suggested SB card (Props to Godzilla here) and it fits the T1 build quite well with the extra acceleration in the deck. I'm trying it out right now for the control matches, note as well the more power accel you have, the better it is in the deck.

Why bother playing this?
Because it's a cheap, consistent and effective aggro combo deck. It steamrolls the majority of aggro, has ok game against control and can cat at least pack some hosers/try to race combo. The deck also has the advantage of having a open and versitile SB setup with the green included in the deck.

Anyone have any questions or comments? I’ll try to answer anything you got to the best of my ability.

[ReAnimator]

There is also this chat

http://forums.mtgnews.com/showthread.php?s=9096e6c2767a978990832b12e97a05c7&threadid=154047

that BeBe and GodzillA were a part of concerning this deck on Mtgnews.  The discusion is 7 pages long and started over a month ago so you should probably just skip to the last few pages as alot of it is just tweaking.

In the end alot of people decided that the food chains were not really worth it and only help the matchups you should already win and are dead draws in your so so and bad matchups.
gobovantage however might still be good.
A lot of this really depends on your meta though, if your meta is control light then the chains may shine.[/url]

also concerning your decklist why no goblin vandals and or a goblin tinkerer? they help plan B a lot, maybe -2 prospecters the 4th chief and the 2nd SGC.

[airwalk]

I have yet to test this deck, or even play against it and am just wondering how consistant it is. Do you have to aggressivly paris into a Food Chain or what?

[Tobi]

I have yet to test this deck, or even play against it and am just wondering how consistant it is. Do you have to aggressivly paris into a Food Chain or what?

Talking of Paris, this deck-type placed 5th in Paris on 18th of January. See www.morphling.de .

[DEA]

i have played against it, and the food chain is really only a sidecombo that kills very fast
the rest of the time it plays like gobvantage

[bebe]

ReAnimator

In the end alot of people decided that the food chains were not really worth it and only help the matchups you should already win and are dead draws in your so so and bad matchups.
gobovantage however might still be good.
A lot of this really depends on your meta though, if your meta is control light then the chains may shine

Not exactly the issue GodzillA and I were discussing. We had noticed that the deck won about fifty percent of its matches without Food Chain ever resolving. However, there are matches where Food Chain does make the difference especially if you are trying to outrace combo. Also, even against control FC is bait for counters and often helps you resolve a needed goblin as a result.
We discussed GobVantage only because its mana base is far better. GobVantage uses Charbelcher which is even slower than FC.  The question is whether or not we want to forgo the utility of green cards in the side and a faster combo component for a more stable mana base. We are still testing.
I know that you played to one first place finish splashing blue but found out the second time you played the deck that adding an extra color was not such a goosd idea.
As the deck stands it biggest problem is consistancy. The mana base is given all of us fits.
How many Ancient Tombs over Mountains?
Are EsGs essential for the speed of the deck.
Are Wastelands sbetter than Ancient Tombs?
Some of the Germans are swearing by use of Wheel of Fortune as an 'I win now' card. But when are Wheels a bad idea? Do we want them against control or Madness?
Lots of questions main deck.
The sideboard is also up for comments. Is Mogg Salvage useful? I use Gaeas Blessings in the side for Dragon. Would Night Soil be better in this deck? We did test them, BTW. How do we beat Landstill? Madness? Dragon? Long?
Just some choices:
Rack and Ruin
CotV
Mogg Salvage
Pyrokenisis
Eight Blast plan
Gaeas Blessings
Night Soil
Naturalize
Tormod's Crypt
Artifact Mutation

I will be playing this deck at Ontario Vintage Championships in all likelihood - with power - because I think that with a little tweaking it has considerable potential. Of course, I've been wrong before.

[Vegeta2711]

In my digi photo class right now, so I'll just anwser in shorthand and elaborate later.

How do we beat Landstill? Madness? Dragon? Long?

Madness: Combo them out. GG. Goblin beatings + strips will do the job pretty well, since you now have incinerators against their annoying critters.

Landstill: I play this like all my control matches, I am the beatdown.    I simply save Ringleaders up and rarely stack more than 1-2 Goblins w/ Recruiter. Remember Incinerator cycles and hence dodges Standstill. This is important when dealing with manlands and having a critter or two out under the still.

Nev's Disk is annoying removal, but it takes a turn to use and if played early taps them out so it gives you a brief opportunity to combo them out or manually drop a bunch of hasted beats into play.

Dragon: You die. You attempt to combo them as quickly as possible and hit Bazaar's with strips to slow them down. After board I use Crypts to try to buy a turn or two more for me to combo out.

Long: You concede.    There is no way to win this match short of a 1st turn chalice for 0 and 2nd turn kill hand. If you have a bit more time, remember Sharpshooter and SGC can attempt to kill them after they cast Death Wish/Spoils/whatever drains some of their life. But honestly you roll over to Long/TPS/Whatever the hell kills you on turn 2.

I'll anwser the rest of the questions when I get home tonight.

[wuaffiliate]

i cant attest to FCG being a bad match for madness, i lost 2-1 vs powered foodchains when playing fully powered madness.

they are just too fast, game 1 i won because i killed him very quickly with help of incarnations, but he proceeded to win the next 2 with loads of goblins in the first few turns. foodchain was only used in game 3, he didnt need one to win game2.

damn im going to have to metagame vs Paul now  damn FCG :lol:

[bebe]

Yep. I know that you lost to FCG. The build you played against had a Wheel and no Gemplalms. I talked to ReAnimator after the tournamernt and he is making adjustments to the deck. His build is very combo oriented.
I think FCG has a decent game against control as well. Deeds and Disks are a bit of a problem though but often you can just outrace them. Sligh was always able to surprise control at times.
Combo is bad. Dragon we can hate out or outrace especially after sideboard but Long ... Green is wonderful added utility. I would beat Long if i devoted sideboard slots but then I would lose the control slots.

The questions remain ...
1) Do we main deck Wheel? Are we playing it as much as combo as a beatdown deck?
2) Do EsGs belong in the mana base. I hate to mulligan for lack of red sources. I play four fetch, no ancient tombs and four esgs. I have 15 sources as per the above list. ( 5 mount. 4 fetch 4 taiga chrome lotus )
3) We need different sideboards for our metas. In Eastern Canada we see
Dragon, Aggro ( includes O. Stompy, Madness, TnT) and control. Long and WMud are played less. I've adjusted my sideboard to take these decks into consideration and added Germpalms main deck as in the list above ( I think two are plenty main deck along with the Shooter). But if WMud and Stax was around I would be adding Vandals main deck for sure. Then a first turn Vandal or Lackey becomes essential.
4) What cards go out in for the various match ups? I take Matrons and Incinerators out first depending on the opponent - what are others doing? Which cards do you view as least essential when siding?

I know this is somewhat simplistic in approach but feel it appropriate for this forum to discuss the play of the deck against its common match ups. I have tested and drawn my own summations which are close but not identical to Vegeta's, eg., Dragon. Just want to go down the road a little further.

[GodzillA]

@ReAnimator:

Thanks for linking the MTGNews thread. Although the site itself has an (often justifiably) bad reputation, I feel there's a lot of useful discussion about the FCG archetype going on in that thread specifically and deserves mention.

The very latest posts there by myself, bebe and felixcat did give the impression that we were beginning to doubt the usefulness of Food Chain, because it seemed to resolve so rarely, especially in control matchups. The conclusion was less than final though. felixcat had mentioned the possibility that Seething GobVantage might in fact be the better choice in a control-filled meta, specifically because of its more stable manabase, and its more consistent aggro game, relying on its combo strictly as a secondary kill, as opposed to Food Chain's heavier reliance on its combo as a primary kill. I agreed that it might in fact be a possibility that Seething GobVantage could be the better chouice for the aforementioned reasons.

Certainly Charbelcher is a worse combo piece in Type 1 - both because of its higher casting cost and because it's an artifact, making it highly fragile - but the thinking was that it would be much less heavily relied upon since it would have a more consistent aggro game due to its more stable manabase. The other obvious drawback is the inability to run cards like Naturalize and Artifact Mutation in the board, which is significant.

In any case, I agreed it was worth testing, so I did just that. I've come to some fairly solid conclusions, so I'll discuss them here. It is necessary to recap a bit of history first, though.

Original builds of FCG (post-Jan. 1, after Chrome Mox's restriction) did not run Wastelands. The deck was touted as having a very consistent fundamental turn of 2-4, which is extremely solid for a combo deck that has such a potent aggro strategy embedded in the deck as a backup. Its ability to outrace Dragon game 1 about 50% of the time, while at the same time having a very solid aggro game against control made it an extremely versatile deck, and in my opinion made it truly viable for a competitive Vintage meta.

During the course of testing, myself and The Source's TeenieBopper both started testing Wastelands in the build, thinking that they would greatly strengthen the Dragon and Landstill matchups, which were some of the deck's tougher ones. At first, results seemed very positive. The Wastelands did in fact provide a stronger game against these matchups. Especially if we were not able to resolve an early Food Chain, Wastelands tended to keep us afloat while we stabilized our aggro strategy.

One of the drawbacks, however, was that the manabase became noticably less stable. As a result, I felt it was necessary to lower the double-colorless source count by 2. (This meant dropping 2 Ancient Tombs. In 1.5, the deck still retained 2 Tombs. In Type 1, it retained Sol Ring and Mana Crypt.) This resolved the stability issues somewhat, but had the side effect of lowering the likelihood of a 1st or 2nd turn Food Chain. At first this seemed acceptable. After further testing, however, I realized increasingly that I was having to mulligan far too often for my liking. Also, I often found myself unable to cast Warchief, because of its double-red mana cost. The only solution I could see to this issue would either be to drop the remaining 2 double-colorless sources (either 2 Tombs or Sol Ring and Crypt for Types 1.5 and 1 respectively).

The underlying problem with this solution, of course, is that this would further reduce the likelihood of an early Food Chain, and slowed the deck's aggro component considerably as well. The more testing I did with the reduced double-colorless sources, the less and less I found myself resolving Food Chain. It would often be playable too late to race opposing Drains, which made it a liability. It became clear that other players were also experiencing the need to mulligan often, and that Food Chain was often a dead card. In essence the deck had lost its ability to combo early, and was once again primarily an aggro deck, with a potentially secondary kill condition in Food Chain.

That brings us up to present day. My conclusion is this: The addition of Wasteland to FCG has transformed it from a combo-aggro deck to a primarily aggro deck with a secondary, oft-unused win condition. In my opinion, this nullifies the deck's original strength - namely its ability to race combo, yet still maintaining a strong game against control. While it still has a strong game against control, it is now much less able to outrace control and aggro.

Bottom line is this: My experience indicates FCG is a much stronger deck without Wastelands, at least as far as combo and aggro matchups are concerned. If combo and aggro are not a concern, then Seething GobVantage is probably a better choice, because it can successfully run both Wastelands and a full compliment of double-colorless sources without losing consistency. Its combo element is much less viable, but its aggro element will be more consistent, and it can disrupt opposing strategy with Wastelands. Basically, in all but completely control-filled metas, I feel that a Wastelandless Food Chain Goblins build is the ideal choice as far as this archetype is concerned.


@airwalk:

The deck is extremely consistent without Food Chain. It plays just like GobVantage. Food Chain just accellerates the kill a great deal if you can resolve it.


@Vegeta 2711:

Thanks again for starting the thread here. I wanted to comment on a couple of your matchup comments:

Regarding the Dragon matchup - I find it's much more winnable game 1 without Wastelands. I never thought I'd say it, but it appears to be true. The ability to outrace it gives you a 50/50 chance game 1. Game 2, a combination of Tormod's Crypt and Blood Moon grind them into dust. I feel Blood Moon is an absolute must for the sideboard. It is by far the most useful tool against Dragon I've seen, and I've done testing with Crypt, Root Maze, Ground Seal, Gaea's Blessing, etc. Furthermore, it's a house against Landstill, Keeper, and Hulk. There are very few Tier 1 decks that it doesn't just absolutely own against.

Regarding the Long/TPS matchup - I agree it's a tough one. You basically have to try to race them, which isn't going to go in your favor most games. I haven't been seeing much of it in the post-Jan. 1 meta, so I haven't had an opportunity to do much testing against it. However, if you do see a lot of Long in your meta, I imagine Pyrostatic in the Pillar in the 'board would go a LONG way (no pun intended) in improving the matchup.


@bebe:

I believe felixcat said he'd be taking FCG to the Ontario Championships as well. I can't wait to hear how you both do. If you have the time, I'd love to see a tournament report.

Regarding your questions:

1. I don't think the deck wants Wheel main. It has plenty of card advantage in the form of Ringleader, Matron, and Incinerator. As far as I'm concerned, if a card is not either: a mana source, a goblin, or Food Chain, it doesn't belong in the deck.

2. In an unpowered budget build, perhaps. In a fully powered build, no. The Type 1.5 build runs ESG because it has little other accelleration available to it. In Type 1, Chrome Mox, Lotus Petal, Mox Emerald, and Black Lotus are perfect replacements for them.

3 & 4. My sideboard (in a meta which is very similar to the one you described) looks like this:

4 Red Elemental Blast (obvious)
3 Blood Moon (Dragon, Landstill, Keeper, Hulk, etc.)
2 Pyrokinesis (random aggro - especially Sui, Sligh, Stompy, Fish)
3 Naturalize (obvious)
3 Tormod's Crypt (primarily used in conjunction with Blood Moon against Dragon)

Typically, Incinerators and Matrons are the first things to be sided out. Incinerators are out against Dragon and control in general. Matrons come out for Pyrokinesis in aggro matchups. Other cards often sided out are Sharpshooter (again vs. Dragon and control) and occasionally a single Warchief, if I really need the room.

In metas with a lot of MUD/Stax, Rack & Ruin and Artifact Mutation are strong considerations. Against Long and TPS, Pyrostatic Pillar is an excellent choice.


For general reference purposes, my build looks like this:

//Food Chain Goblins

//Mana
6 Mountain
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
1 Chrome Mox
1 Lotus Petal

//Goblins
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Skirk Prospector
4 Goblin Recruiter
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Goblin Matron
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander

//Combo
4 Food Chain

//Sideboard
3 Blood Moon
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyrokinesis
3 Naturalize
3 Tormod's Crypt

A note about the manabase: No Wastelands for previously discussed reasons. 6 Fetchlands, as I feel 10-11 permanent green sources are necessary for consistency. 4 is too few, 8 is too many. Only 3 double-colorless sources (Ring, Crypt, Tomb). 3 seems to be the ideal amount. Any more and you tend to burn yourself more than is necessary.

A note about the creature base: After months of testing, I feel this is the ideal creature base. Vegeta2711 appears to have come to the same conclusion with his testing as well. The only exception might be the replacement of 1-2 Incinerators with Vandals or Tinkerers in a Workshop-heavy meta.

The deck is extremely competitive in 1.5 as well. That build replaces all restricted cards with: 1 Mountain, 2 Ancient Tombs, and 4 Elvish Spirit Guides. It plays very nearly as quickly as the Type 1 version, and is more than viable in budget form.

[bebe]

Just to clear up a misconception ... I am felixcat. I agree with your conclusions. The latest two builds to top eight in Europe were both powerless and used four Ancient Tombs each and no Strips. Speed is certainly key here. I brought up Seething Gobvantage as perhaps superior for particular metas. I also championed Blood Moon for a Dragon/control filled meta but I'm not sure that the pyrokenisis should not be Mogg Salvage in your sideboard. Doesn't hurt to hedge your bets against Workshop decks.

[kirdape3]

This deck should not almost lose a game against a deck that packs neither Force of Will nor Sphere of Resistance/Trinisphere.  You simply combo out the other aggro decks, and if you can't Piledriver them into the dirt you can just Sharpshoot them out or Commander them out.

[GodzillA]

Just to clear up a misconception ... I am felixcat.

Hahaha. That would explain why you both seemed to think so similarly. I was beginning to think that Canadians were operating under some sort of hive mind.  

I agree with your conclusions. The latest two builds to top eight in Europe were both powerless and used four Ancient Tombs each and no Strips. Speed is certainly key here.

I'm against a full  4 Tombs, but it's reassuring to see that stripless builds are performing well at tournament.

I brought up Seething Gobvantage as perhaps superior for particular metas. I also championed Blood Moon for a Dragon/control filled meta but I'm not sure that the pyrokenisis should not be Mogg Salvage in your sideboard. Doesn't hurt to hedge your bets against Workshop decks.

I credit you fully for the assertion that Blood Moon belongs in the sideboard. My testing has shown it to be far and away the strongest card the deck has there. As for Pyrokinesis, I agree that it's the most questionable slot in the 'board. It does help in a lot of matchups though.

If I were to include hate for Workshop.dec, though, I don't know that I would choose Mogg Salvage as the tool to do so. While it might be good for decks like Stacker, it seems inferior to either Rack and Ruin or Artifact Mutation against the most popularly played Workshop variant, MUD. Artifact Mutation in particular seems very strong, because you can often  play it first turn if necessary. As an example, turning your opponent's first turn Metalworker into your own 3 1/1's is a massive tempo shift in your favor, and an excellent defense against Tanglewire and 'Stack. Why do you suggest Mogg Salvage specifically?

[Vegeta2711]

1) I doubt it's worth running Wheel, even though it is a 'I Win' if you have Food Chain out. Too much randomness for my taste.

2) No.

3) Vandal's are def. a option against Workshop decks and were in the original list. Also I agree Blood Moon should probably find a place in the board.

4) Cards I SB out depend matchup wise, but most are also Matron's and Incinerators. Skirk Prospectors are also very low on my priority list if I'm bringing in heavy amounts of hate.

General notes: I have NEVER been able to go 50/50 game 1 against Dragon with any build of FCG.  I guess you guys have more luck than me.  :lol:

Also be careful when you say your fast enough to race combo. Your certainly not faster than any combo deck in T1, other than being on par with Dragon.

I do however accept that non wasteland versions of the deck are fine, I simply liked hedging my bets against control. This was my main thought on the subject.

Aggro: You stomp them
Control: 50/50 or so depnding on build and skill.
Combo:   Like... 20% on a good day.
Workshop: You stomp TnT and Stacker, have a decent game against Slavery and WelderMUD/Stax is winnable, though difficult.

So you know I just sort of figured Wastes worked well, but note my own mulligan issues have been nowhere near as bad as how it sounds for you guys.[/quote]

[bebe]

@ GodzillA
I like mogg salvage because I fear the Mindslaver match up the most of the Workshop decksand instant speed free removal is tech. I find that Islands (volcanics) are  in almost all these decks. As a bonus, U/r still also plays these lands and quick disk removal ifor free is also good. Overall R+R seems better but it is usually just a single artifact i'm targeting before going off.
As for Tombs - four for budget builds - the additon of lotus/mox makes two ideal.
HIVE MENTALITY !! Only dicemanx could find a deck to use The Hive and Living Hive. We are Team Rogue ...  

@ Vegeta2711
I've been okay against Dragon so far. Mind you i had two Gaeas Blessings in the Pyrokenisis slots.  As for the rest of your analysis, i am in agreement 100%. Your sideboarding is precisely what I have been doing. I know a few players who have been removing the Food Chains against control thinking they were juicy Drain targets but I don't like that practice myself.

Maybe we should move on to how we stack the deck against different match ups and in different situations? I know that I stack differently against aggro than against control. When would you stack an Incinerator if ever?  How many prospecters do you feel ideal for the stack?  Might as well dissect the hell out of this.

[Vegeta2711]

If I know I won't be disrupted while comboing, then generally I won't care about the order. So in all my aggro matches generaly I just make sure to get 4x Piledrivers, 3x Incinerators, 2x Warchief, SGC, Sharpshooter, Prospector in there as my 13.

My order against control if I have at least 3 mana out and/or Food Chain. (This means I assume there's a chance I'll be disrupted out of my combo and will be manually drawing.)

Set-up against Control

Ringleader
Warchief
SGC
Piledriver
Ringleader #2
Piledriver
Piledriver
Piledriver
Ringleader #3
Goblin Sharpshooter
Skirk Prospector
SGC or Warchief #2
Ringleader #4
Skirk Prospector
Skirk Prospector
Skirk Prospector
Gempalm Incinerator

This order is specfically chosen to maximize odds of winning if the combo is disrupted. Warchief will make all future goblins cheaper if Food Chain was destroyed in response and sets up for the next draw which is SGC. After that Piledriver after Piledriver w/ the 2nd Ringleader. I feel this gives me the best chance of coming back with cheap and effective threats.

The specialized stuff comes in after Ringleader 3, because it's only really relevant in the offchance they have Moat or a fog effect of some kind. Basically the stuff isn't that useful if drawn w/o being able to combo off fully. The 4th Ringleader is all dirt cheap stuff in case of Humility, in which case you want to sac the least amount of goblins to Food Chain for the maxium return.

I feel you only need 1 Prospector for the stack, but 4 is just nice in case of Humility and the lack of anything better to stack in it's place agaisnt control.

Against Combo it really won't matter what you stack or in what order. You either combo them out right then for 200 points of Piledriver damage or die.

Workshop gets it's own unique set-up as well. Why? Because you may have to combo out under a Sphere which some people just aren't used too.

Set-up against Workshop, assuming a Sphere on the table.

Ringleader
SGC
Warchief
SGC #2
Ringleader #2
Piledriver
Piledriver
Piledriver
Ringleader #3
Piledriver
Goblin Sharpshooter
Skirk Prospector
Ringleader #4
whatever
whatever
whatever
whatever

The order you do crap in.
Sac Recruiter for 3 mana
Pay 2 more to cast Ringleader
Sac Ringleader for 5
Pay one more, then play SGC
Sac SGC for 6 mana and play Warchief
Use the 2 mana remaining and sac 2 of the goblin tokens that came into play from SGC to play the next Ringleader. (Warchief negates the extra 1 cost)
Combo out normally from here.

Note this leaves you with SGC in hand and Sharpshooter in your stack still, so even if Ensnaring Bridge is out, you can combo shoot your opponent out. Against a Pillar simply don't fully combo and smash face for 50 if your low on life.

As you can see the main difference is against aggro, I'll set it up much more around the idea that I can sac a few random goblins and burn off any annoying blockers I see.

If I have to throw out a random Recruiter I'll generally just stack 2-3 cards for whatever I will feel is the most useful at that moment. Against aggro usually this means stacking Incinerators and Sharpshooters. Against control Ringleaders, SGC or Piledrivers generally. Against Prison Incinerators (Screw wedlers) or Piledrivers are good bets, with the occasinal Skirk Prospector or Warchief thrown in.

I think that covers everything stack related.

[GodzillA]

Vegeta's gone over it pretty well, and I agree with the majority of what he's said. The difference for me is in the control matchup. If I fear counters, I'll often put 2-4 Ringleaders right on top, and then the other goblins in the same order. That way, if the first Ringleader is countered, you just draw another next turn. If that one's countered, you draw another, etc. If the first one isn't countered, then you still get to dig just as deep, you just draw them in a different order.

If I fear land disruption (e.g. opponent has a Wasteland on the board, and I only have 4 mana in play with some non-basics) I'll often stack a Recruiter or a Matron right after the first Ringleader, so that if they destroy a mana source and I can't hardcast the Ringleader, I have a way to unstack or restack the deck.

Against combo or aggro, it hardly matters how you stack, assuming there's a Food Chain on the table. If there's not, then the most typical stack is Ringleader, Warchief, Piledriver, Piledriver, Piledriver. This changes circumstantially - if there are creature threats which need immediate removal (Welders, Metalworkers, etc.) Incinerators and/or Sharpshooter are the order of the day. If I have an active Lackey on the table with no opposing blockers, I may go for an SGC, or I may go with the aforementioned Warchief/Piledriver combination.

It's difficult to say definitively what the best stack order is, since it changes given your board position. The general rules as outlined by Vegeta apply in most circumstances, though.

I like mogg salvage because I fear the Mindslaver match up the most of the Workshop decksand instant speed free removal is tech. I find that Islands (volcanics) are in almost all these decks.

I guess this isn't so much of an issue for me, since I haven't seen a single Mindslaver build in my meta. That aside though, I think it's a fair assumption that MUD is by far the most prominent Workshop deck right now, with TnT coming in second. Neither of these decks run Islands, at least in any decklist I've ever seen. Thus, against the matchups you're most likely to see, Mogg Salvage is inferior to Rack & Ruin. In pretty much all matchups, though, (including Midnslaver and Stacker variants), I think I'd most want Artifact Mutation out of the the three spells we've been discussing. Consider that it can easily be played first turn. Consider also that the artifacts you used in your example cost anywhere from 4-6 mana. This equates to 4-6 beaters for you upon a resolved Mutation. This far exceeds anything Salvage can offer, in my opinion.

[Prometheus]

Two Points

I think that wheel of Fortune make a good addition to the Deck.
I wouldn't play that many Fetchies. I never liked them in FCG. Why don't you play Karplusan Forests?

[Public Service]

Have you tried Worldly Tutor? Running 8 Goblin Recruiters seems strong. Of course the mana base will have to be adjusted.

[bebe]

@Prometheus
Both good points and both heavily debated. Although adding LKarplusions is not an answer. There is too little green for them to be that useful and open yourself up to Wastes and other hate. The disadvantage of the fetches is that they must be played before setting up your chain but usually setting up the chain is a win anyway. The fetches do add early consistency and get the fast FC out. I'm still wavering here but probably the pros outweigh the cons.
I like the Wheel. I've been testing it lately in thre build and if it resolves you win a high percentage of your matches. I need convincing it does not belong in this deck.
@PublicService
I actually tested W. Tutors being the type to test everything in practice and not relying just on theory. Simply, as GodzillA stated once in my query over this card - its not a goblin. It has no place in the deck. I rarely found it useful ( I thought it would get me a quick recruiter too ).

I agree with the stack analysis pretty much but really the difficulty comes when thee is no FC on the table and you have a maximum of three mana sources. Stacking the deck allows you only Skirks for extra boost at that point and then your choices are not nearly as transparent. What you stack is dependent on what you holding in your hand as a lackey/scg followed by piledrivers is often a good choice or as GodzillA said, Sharpshooters/Incinerators for certain match ups. With no FC we play straight Goblin beatdown and that is when I miss Wastes and Strips most  as I have no way to slow down my opponents and can get locked out fast.

[Vegeta2711]

Alright Bebe, I'm starting to come over to your side of the arguement on Wheel of Fortune here. The first time I tested it, it was nothing but a dead draw. Now I've been trying it for the past 2 days and it's single handedly won me 2 games and saved me another one where my opponent ended up taking it over FC.

Considering I cut a Matron to run it, I feel this is a good trade right now.    Anyways I'm gonna do a bit more play runs with the deck before completely making the change permenant, but it's looking good.

If I have only 3 mana sources in play and I drop Recruiter, I'll either run a Lackey/SGC gambit or stack some Piledrivers/Warchief's. As you said it depends on board position and if you have anything worthwhile left in your hand.

@Prometheus
I ran Karpulsans in the original T1 version of FCG, they eventually got cut for being more needless pain and giving me too many lands.

And on that final note, I'm going to start a mini-primer or something for FCG in the near future.  I'll begin writing it as soon as I have time from school.

[Hero]

By 'combo shooting' an opponent to death with the Sharpshooter means you ping, sac a goblin, untap, ping, lather, rinse, repeat?

I ask because I've been running it without sharpshooter.  (Didn't play Onslaught block.)

[bebe]

Yes, but note not to FC. You need a Prospector for this to work.

[GodzillA]

Re: Wheel of Fortune:

At first glance, I'm against it because it doesn't follow the goblin/mana source rule. I'd be a fool to come to any definiteive conclusions about it without testing it, though, so I will. I agree with Vegeta that Matron is probably the right thing to pull for it.


Re: Karplusan Forest:

More often than not, I fetch a basic Mountain with Fetchlands. This is to defend against Wasteland. Also, this deck has a much greater need for colored mana than colorless, so Karplusans will invariably be doing more damage to you than Fetches. Also, its ability to shuffle your deck after a bad Recruiter stack can be advantageous.


Re: Stacking without Food Chain:

Again, Vegeta covered it pretty well. If they have no blockers, I may go for Lackey/SGC. If they have some kind of defense, I may go Warchief/Piledriver. If they have annoying critters, I may go Incinerator. If I have 3 mana, and I think I have the time, I may go Prospector/Ringleader/whatever. It really is situational. The application of a bit of logic tends to go a long way.


Re: Worldly Tutor:

Raises the need for green mana sources. Is card disadvantage. You need to wait a turn to get your Recruiter. Can't sac them to Food Chain, Prospector, or SGC. Can't pump a Piledriver. No synergy with Sharpshooter. Its function is already performed by Matron, Ringleader, and possibly Wheel of Fortune. Case closed.


Re: Combo-Shooting:

The basic premise is to get 12-13 goblins in play, including SGC, Prospector, and Sharpshooter. Sac 8 to Prospector for 8 mana. Sac 4 to SGC (including itself) for 8 direct damage. Ping once for each of those 12 with Sharpshooter. 20 damage, good game.


Re: A Mini-Primer:

I've been working on one myself. Might you be interested in co-authoring one with me Vegeta? PM me.


Re: Other stuff:

I was looking at the decklists that took 5th at Paris and Dulmen this month. They both ran 4 Matrons, less than 4 Prospectors, at least two Fanatics, and a full 4 Ancient Tombs, in addition to Sol Ring and Mana Crypt. Neither ran Moxen or Lotus, nor Wheel of Fortune. I don't currently have any value judgements on these observations, but considering the differences between those builds and our own, perhaps some there's some discussion to be had there.

[ReAnimator]

BeBe
what made you change your mind on the Wheel debate? initially you didnt like it because of all the stompy and maddness in our meta and you thougt it would help control as much as us.
I like the wheel but find you need to side it out in certain matches, i think of it as ringleader #5 vs control because if wheel/ringleader resolves you can get back in the game.
It is deffinitely a personal preference because sometimes it is just too iffy to try to cast cause it could just loose you the game. in most cases the ringleader is better/safer and if you are running matrons the wheel may be useless cause you would rather get a ringleader since you have more ways to find them.  (I personaly dont like matrons at all in this deck and dont run them and instead run the wheel and other stuff)

[bebe]

GodzillA
FCG is a strong deck and can be forgiving. I also noticed the differences between builds. I know I tried Moggs out early and did you not try them as well GodzillA? I would not drop Incinerators for them and like your build better without them. We all know we can play this as a budget deck and i would go three Ancient tombs if i had no access to Mox or Lotus. Also I know the European meta is quite different from mine with a lot of Keeper and control and a fair bit of TnT/Mud. Some choices  need to be considered using the reference of the meta they originate in.

ReanimatoR
Yes. Wheel hurt me once or twice causing me to dismiss it. But really I played it when my hand/board position was poor so like Spoils or Demonic you sometimes get bit by it. Retesting it against Madness and O. Stompy made me rethink my position. Wheel will win you more games than you will lose with it by far. If I'm playing a deck it will likely help, I need to be cautious. It is all about timing against madness and o. stompy ... if they have a full hand and a Bazaar or SotF on the table what have I got to lose if it can win me the game in a turn? But if they have no Bazaar/SotF or just a card or two in hand, I can wait if i'm not in danger of losing.

[GodzillA]

GodzillA
FCG is a strong deck and can be forgiving. I also noticed the differences between builds. I know I tried Moggs out early and did you not try them as well GodzillA? I would not drop Incinerators for them and like your build better without them. We all know we can play this as a budget deck and i would go three Ancient tombs if i had no access to Mox or Lotus. Also I know the European meta is quite different from mine with a lot of Keeper and control and a fair bit of TnT/Mud. Some choices  need to be considered using the reference of the meta they originate in.

Yeah, I was originally a big proponent of Fanatics in the deck. I went into great detail on the matter over on the thread at The Source, so anyone curious about my thinking can check it out there. The upshot was that I liked having more 1st turn drops, because it occasionally made it possible to go off a turn faster by having a creature to sac to the second turn Food Chain. It's also less mana intensive than Incinerator, which sometimes made it usable faster. In the end, though, Incinerator's ability to do more damage to bigger creatures in the late game, combined with their ability to draw a card and their uncounterability made them the better choice.

I was actually more interested in discussing the 4 Matrons in each of the European builds. It seems a pretty consistent sentiment on this side of the Atlantic that Matrons are pretty good, but definitely not great, and that more than two is just too many. Clearly they feel different over in Europe, and I'm wondering what the argument is. The inclusion of two more Matrons main would explain the higher Tomb count (since you have more uses for 2 colorless mana), and theoretically would explain the lower Prospector count (since you have more accelleration in Tombs). I'm of a mind that we have refined a pretty ideal creature base, but I'm interested in exploring the reasons for the apparent disparity between our own builds and those of the Europeans.

[Vegeta2711]

Hey guys, while writing over the primer this weekend (up to 13 pages, w00t) I've had something come up for the SB.

Xantid Swarm

I mean everyone else runs them and they're some of the best disruption combo has available. I know it doesn't fall under as a goblin, but after trying it for a bit I've given it some real consideration. Not only is it another turn 1 threat on par with Lackey, but it gives you an option to combo out. Any thoughts on this?

My current test SB
4x Naturalize
4x Xantid Swarm
3x Blood Moon
4x Open meta slots: Right now 4x REB, also testing Artifact Mutation as a 3-3 split with Naturalize and possibly using Chalice.

One final thing. Godzilla, I already asked Bebe his thoughts on some specfic match-up's, so now I ask for yours. If you have any insight into matches against: Keeper, WMUD or the mirror, that would help immensely as I don't have full data on them. (And I mean the T1 versions   )

[GodzillA]

On the issue of Xantid Swarm: I'd actually considered them myself. They're obviously a very popular threat against control for any deck running green. However, the more I test it, the more I feel like the Control matchup doesn't really need much strengthening. While Mana Drain is a huge threat, I feel like Lackey pretty much does the job of Xantid Swarm already. A resolved turn 1 Lackey is pretty much game. If I can't resolve a turn 1 Lackey, I'll try to resolve a turn 2 Recruiter, and stack the deck with Lackeys, no Ringleader. Eventually, one of the Lackeys resolves and it's a quick game from there. This is a consistent and reliable way to play around control. You never hardcast anything that costs more than 2, and eventually they run out of counters for your threats.

So, the pros:

- Obviously strengthens your game against Control. A 1cc threat that locks down a large portion of their answers is great.

The cons:

- Lackey already fills Swarm's role, only more effectively. Plus, the deck has multiple ways of finding Lackey quickly if it's not in the opening draw. Often, aggressive mulligans for Lackey are worthwhile.

- Swarm takes up valuable sideboard space for a matchup that the deck is already rather strong against. Pre-board, I feel that FCG has the advantage in most Control matchups, with the possible exception of Landstill. The board already packs Blood Moon and REB, so post-board your game gets even stronger, including the Landstill matchup. Basically, Swarm feels redundant and unnecessary.

- Swarm requires green mana. REB does not. While Swarm is a more permanent solution, it puts greater strain on an already very tight mana base. If you can resolve a Lackey, you're good as gold. REB can help in this regard. Swarm can too, but you need to resolve it first.

- Probably the most important drawback: Swarm eats your combat phase. More than probably any other deck, FCG wants to cast its threats before its combat phase, because of the high number of threats with haste.

My conclusion is that Swarm slows the deck down and takes up valuable sideboard slots to strengthen already strong matchups. I'm certainly open to arguments to the contrary, though.

As for the MUD matchup, I have to say that I hate it. I've been doing some testing against it lately and I fear it a lot. I'd say that FCG has the slight advantage, but it's by no means a walk in the park. I also feel that Naturalize alone isn't enough of an answer. The other options in my mind are Rack and Ruin, Crash, and Artifact Mutation.

My problem with Rack and Ruin is that it's slow. A turn 1 Sphere or Tangle Wire means you're never going to get a chance to use it against these threats. Even with the available accelleration, it often isn't fast enough.

Crash would be an ideal solution, except that the deck really can't afford to lose its colored mana. This is particularly true for builds running Striplands. Often, the removal of a single Mountain will slow your game down more than an opposing Tangle Wire or Sphere ever could.

Artifact Mutation would appear to me to be the ideal answer. It's faster than R&R, without the tempo disadvantage caused by Crash. It has the added advantage of producing a mass of tokens for Tangle Wire/Smokestack fodder, which is particularly useful in this matchup. I'd say it's the ideal choice.

There's always bebe's suggestion of Mogg Salvage, but I see more wMUD than I do Stax or Slavery, and I prefer an answer to all of these matchups, so Artifact Mutation is my current preference.

For reference, my current sideboard looks like this:

3 Blood Moon (MVP)
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Artifact Mutation
3 Naturalize
3 Tormod's Crypt

REB count has been dropped to 3 because the Control matchup is already so strong. Pyrokinesis has been dropped because of the already strong game against Aggro. Artifact Mutation has been upped to 3, to strengthen the difficult Workshop.dec matchup. Thus far, it appears to be very versatile and provides answers to the deck's hardest matchups. Thoughts?

[Hero]

When Darksteel becomes T1 legal, wouldn't Oxidize be a better sideboard option for artifact hate?  It's one CC, instant speed, and no drawbacks.

I feel that with the 4 Taiga's, 4 ESG, and a few fetchlands the G requirement isn't that much for the deck to handle consistently.

Also, what do you think about running Chrome Mox?  

I've been playing with it in mine, I find it helps when I have an extra Food Chain in hand or I imprint an ESG since it's a bit more permanent, though easily hated against.