[Deck] Food Chain Goblins (Budget Combo Goblins)

[Jacob Orlove]

A potential second lackey for the board? Is this worth it? The counters stay on the card.

[GodzillA]

When Darksteel becomes T1 legal, wouldn't Oxidize be a better sideboard option for artifact hate?  It's one CC, instant speed, and no drawbacks.

It's a very tempting option. The biggest reason for artifact hate in the board is to deal with MUD/Stax, etc. Oxidize is advantageous because it can be cast quickly, and more easily under a Sphere. Artifact Mutation, however, is very strong in that it not only removes a threat, but provides you with additional threats of your own. This is particularly relevant against Workshop prison decks. While it's harder to cast Mutation under a turn 1 Sphere, it's identical under a Trinisphere, which may very well be replacing Sphere of Resistance in a lot of newer builds. I'm not prepared to conjecture which is the better choice without further testing, but my inclination is to say that Artifact Mutation remains the better choice if Trinisphere becomes more prevalent than its predecessor. If not, then Oxidize could be the better choice.

Also, what do you think about running Chrome Mox?

I heartily endorse this product and/or service. FCG benefits greatly from early accelleration, and can easily make up for the card disadvantage by just winning, or with an accellerated Ringleader. The same goes for Lotus Petal. As for ESG, they're awesome in the 1.5 build, but they don't particularly belong in the Type 1 build. They are replaced with Mox Emerald, Chrome Mox, Lotus Petal, and Black Lotus.

The ideal T1 manabase (without Strips):

6 Mountain
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Chrome Mox
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal

The ideal T1 manabase (with Strips):

3 Mountain
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Chrome Mox
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal

(Note that the Strip version runs 1 additional manasource in place of the 4th Warchief. This helps to alleviate the stress caused by the additional colorless sources, and also reduces the lack of synergy between the Warchiefs and the colorless sources.) On another note, Elvish Spirit Guide could theoretically be superior to Lotus Petal, in that it can be imprinted on Chrome Mox, isn't targettable by Duress, isn't affected by Null Rod, Keg, etc. and can act as a "surprise" mana source. That's sort of nitpicky, though.

A potential second lackey for the board? Is this worth it? The counters stay on the card.

An intriguing idea, at first glance... but I have the same issues with this card as I do with Xantid Swarm. (See 2 posts back.) To recap: It only strengthens the Control matchup, which is already rather strong. Vial  suffers additionally in that it's an artifact, and therefore that much more easily hated. It also seems pretty slow as well, but I suppose in the Control matchup that's not really an issue. It deserves testing, so I will.

Edit: Upon further contemplation, it would also appear to strengthen the Workshop prison matchup, so it is perhaps more tempting than the Swarm. I'll definitely give it some testing.

[Vegeta2711]

Oxidize is crap, I would've ran Crumble in the first itetration of the deck if I needed it. Naturalize is the most versatile and Artifact Mutation just flat out owns the Workshop match.

My own personal mana base from the FCG Primer.

// Mana
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus  
1 Mana Crypt  
1 Chrome Mox
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Mountain

I also run 4 MD Warchief. Petal makes red and hence it's better than ESG.

Vial is a good idea, my issue is it's not something I'd drop turn 1 over Lackey, but past turn 1 it's slow in dropping anything else. If I drew any past turn 2 it's as good as a dead draw as well. It may be worth considering, but I'd probably run Swarm before Vial. And I don't even run Swarm.

[GodzillA]

I used to run 4 MD Warchief with the full Strip compliment, but was continuously running into the aforementioned mana consistency issues. Swapping a single Warchief for a Mountain has done a lot to shore that up, and raises my inclination to advocate a build running Strips. I'm very rarely unhappy to see mana in this deck. I'm very regularly unhappy to see a hand with 2 lands and 3 Warchiefs in it. Something to consider.

As for running only 4 Fetches (which is the only other difference between our manabases) I'm not necessarily against it, since you have Emerald as another permanent green source. I'm just wary of running any less than 10 permanent green sources.

With regards to Vial: I definitely wouldn't drop it before a Lackey, but it raises the number of Lackey-like effects you're likely to draw in your opening hand. Because it's only going to come in against Control and Workshop.dec, you should have enough time for it to actually be useful. Considering how well it could potentially work around MUD's lock, I think I'd be inclined to run it over Swarm, if at all.

[Vegeta2711]

My issue with Vial is that it seems like it'd be too slow to drop creatures against Workshop.

It's like you get a very fast start, Lackey or Bust! or have a lot of artifact hate ready to begin with.

Though I am inclined to agree 3 Warchiefs and an extra Mountain would probably work better mana wise, remember I run another Mountain than you period. Plus I actually like having 4 Warchief's now, before I only ran 2-3 depending on the time period. Hehe...I guess it MAY be worthwhile having one more land over a threat, but I'm unsure at this juncture.

[BreathWeapon]

This deck looks incredibly strong and very flexible, I might have to put down B/g Dragon and give this a whirl for a couple of days. I would soo run Xantid Swarms over REB in the SB or possibly even in the MD, its a cold day in hell when you have too much Control meta. 4xTormod's Crypt should also be a no brainer IMO, Dragon is the only Combo deck you really have to worry about and they do a good job of screwing Long over for a turn or 2. I'll give the deck a go and see what I can come up with.

[Prometheus]

I haven't tested, but Root Maze seems quite good to me instead of Crypt's. It slows you, but the Dragon/TPS players even more.

I played the Deck and won a very small tournament.(Before Chrome Mox Restriction with a bit a different/(faster but more inconsistant) build). My problem was that I never knew what exactly to take out while boarding.

[BreathWeapon]

Tormod's Crypt is easily superior to Root Maze, IMO. The Crypt doesn't slow you down at all and it can very well cripple Dragon and Long, plus it awesome vs Hulk. Root Maze may not be a bad card in addition to Crypt if you see a lot of Combo, but i'd definately vote against it replacing Crypt entirely.

One question I have for you guys is, are the Incinerators and the lone Sharpshooter really worth using? Thats 4 MD slots for Goblin Vandals, which seem to be a lot more practical vs numerous decks, Prison-TnT-Mask, and they are only a 1 drop. I haven't had any problems killing my opponent outside of the attack phase, and at most you should only need 1 Incinerator or Sharpshooter to circumvent a Moat or Humility, which are both pretty rare. The deck could use a little help circumventing Sphere of Resistance and Trinisphere, both of them suck ass if they resolve against you. Also, the 2/2 split between Goblin Matron and Siege-Gang Commander seems a little random, wouldn't it be better to pick one or the other for 4xSlots?

Here is my working version for T1.5, the changes for T1 would only be to the Manabase and i'd probably cut something for a Wheel of Fortune. I haven't found a whole lot of use for Strip Effects in the deck. They are a liability vs Combo, useless vs most Aggro and counter productive vs Prison.

"Food Chain Goblins"

4xGoblin Vandal
4xGoblin Lackey
4xSkirk Prospecter
4xGoblin Piledriver
4xGoblin Matron
4xGoblin Recruiter
4xGoblin Ring Leader
4xGoblin Warchief

4xFood Chain

4xElvish Spirit Guide
4xAncient Tomb
4xFetch Lands
4xTaiga
7xMountain
1xForest

SB
Blood Moon
Xantid Swarms
Artifact Mutation
Naturalize
Root Maze
Tormod's Crypt

I find myself siding out Goblin Matrons and Goblin Warchiefs a lot vs Control for Blood Moons and Xantid Swarms. REB just seems completely inferior to the Swarms. The insects give you the option of slowing the game down and playing for Card Advantage vs Keeper and HULK, which is a nice option to have. The Artifact Mutations have proven their salt in the SB against Prison, even with MD Vandals I HATE this match up. Naturalize and Crypt are, as always, golden vs slowing Dragon down enough to take the game home. Although', from what i've seen the amount of Hate vs Dragon may warrant reducing the amount of our own SB hate against it. If the format gravitates towards, Control-Aggro-Prison than FCG is going to be fantastic.

[Vegeta2711]

:shock:

Incinerators are in the deck for a reason, they DO increase how well you do in your aggro matches and the workshop match. It kills welders by dodging Sphere and Trinisphere (It's cycling and hence not a spell.) You only win about 50-60% of your matches with the combo, so as far as I'm concerned these things are useful. I could see cutting 1 if you see little aggo or need to fit a Wheel and want your Matron's.

Goblin Sharpshooter is one of the best dudes in this deck ever. He's creature control, good direct damage and how you do combo shoot kill. People have wanted to run MORE of these, your the first person who has ever wanted to cut it.

The deck could use a little help circumventing Sphere of Resistance and Trinisphere, both of them suck ass if they resolve against you.

How many decks don't have problems if these things are dropped first turn. Plus if your going first you have Lackey anyways. The WMUD/Stax matches aren't awesome, but you'll break even game 1 and after board you have AM + Naturalize. If you see a LOT of Workshop then Vandal is advisable in the deck somewhere.

Also, the 2/2 split between Goblin Matron and Siege-Gang Commander seems a little random, wouldn't it be better to pick one or the other for 4xSlots?

Matron's suck as a 4-of as they don't do enough and the same goes with 4 SGC's. You only want enough where you have a reasonable chance of dropping one off a lackey hit and to tutor for when you need them.

BTW, why are you taking out Warchief's against control? You SB out Matron's and Incinerator's and possibly some Skirk Prospectors.

Swarm is alright. My few tests with it have proven worthwhile, but there has been 2 issues with it that keep me from advocating it's replacement/addition to REB in the board.

1. I won't always have green mana on turns 1-3. This makes Xantid Swarm very dead to me.

2. It competes with Lackey. I didn't think this would be a big issue, but it's happened enough where I have to mention it. I simply hate dropping Swarm before Lackey, because it gives them more time to deal with it then they would have normally. (Swarm. Yay. By turn 3 when they both can attack I'll Fire both of them on you're upkeep.) And I hate dropping Lackey before Swarm, because then if they remove it Swarm didn't do jack shit.

[Hero]

Hm.  Artifact Mutation is pretty solid...more bodies is always good.  

But if you're going to run a G/R instant wouldn't Hull Breach be a much better option?  Artifact, enchantment, or artifact and enchantment destruction.  Solid, still instant speed, and same mana cost.

[the Luke]

I have an interest in this deck, as it can quite easily get a number of Extended players into Type 1. As I try to be a Type "Fun" evangelist in my local area, I think this is a good thing. Anyway, I heard talk about a primer being worked on for FCG. When will this be released? If it won't be released for some time, then perhaps a couple of up to date (full powered is fine) decklists could be posted? Ie. Strip and non-Strip versions, together with sideboard. I assume the lists at the top of the topic are a bit out of date now.

I'd appreciate it.

-Luke

[GodzillA]

remember I run another Mountain than you period. Plus I actually like having 4 Warchief's now, before I only ran 2-3 depending on the time period.

It only looks that way. You actually run 1 less, as my list above has 2 more fetches. If you were to swap the Mires for Mountains, I'd be running one more than you, which for the sake of consistency, I feel is very important if you're running Strips.

I would soo run Xantid Swarms over REB in the SB or possibly even in the MD, its a cold day in hell when you have too much Control meta. 4xTormod's Crypt should also be a no brainer IMO, Dragon is the only Combo deck you really have to worry about and they do a good job of screwing Long over for a turn or 2.

The Control matchup is already so strong, it's hardly relevant. The only difficult Control matchup is LandStill, because it actually pack early threats. Slow play against all the others and you crush them pretty consistently. Blood Moon in the board is an answer to LandStill, as well as Dragon. As for running 4 Crypts, it's not really necessary. 3 Crypts to slow Dragon down and 3 Moons to lock them out completely is a thoroughly tested and highly effective solution.

Tormod's Crypt is easily superior to Root Maze, IMO. The Crypt doesn't slow you down at all and it can very well cripple Dragon and Long, plus it awesome vs Hulk.

Truth. Crypt is a stronger threat against a wider range of cards, isn't symmetrical, and comes out earlier without throwing off your tempo.

With regards to your decklist, and to your assertions regarding Swarm, I'd respond in detail, but Vegeta has done an excellent job of saying what I would have. A few comments: The complete lack of direct damage is foolhardy, especially in 1.5. Also, SGC's provide a dual purpose in the deck - when your comboing out with chain, the provide an excellent mana boost for dropping more threats, because a 5 mana investment gets turned into 9 mana through Food Chain. (6 for SGC, 3 each for the tokens.) Incinerator is vital for clearing Lackey blockers, and Sharpshooter kills weenie hoardes as well as providing an alternate win condition against decks packing Moat, Ensnaring Bridge, or Orim's Chant/IsoScepter.

The Vandals are far less necessary in 1.5 as well. I assume they're thee for the MUD matchup, but how good are they when they're locked down by a first turn Tangle Wire? The correct solution is to beat MUD with the 'board. Game 1, you can usually outrace them, and game 2 is plenty strong.

In any case, with regards to 1.5, there are 8 pages worth of discussion about the deck right here at The Source. Creature choices and reasoning behind all of them is very thoroughly discussed. It might be a helpful resource in your testing, if you haven't checked it out already.

But if you're going to run a G/R instant wouldn't Hull Breach be a much better option? Artifact, enchantment, or artifact and enchantment destruction. Solid, still instant speed, and same mana cost.

Hull Breach is a sorcery.

I have an interest in this deck, as it can quite easily get a number of Extended players into Type 1. As I try to be a Type "Fun" evangelist in my local area, I think this is a good thing. Anyway, I heard talk about a primer being worked on for FCG. When will this be released? If it won't be released for some time, then perhaps a couple of up to date (full powered is fine) decklists could be posted? Ie. Strip and non-Strip versions, together with sideboard. I assume the lists at the top of the topic are a bit out of date now.

I'd appreciate it.

I don't want to speak for Vegeta, but I think it's safe to say the primer will be coming out very soon. I believe he's putting final touches on it now. In the meanwhile, I'll post my current fully powered decklist, (which, if I'm not mistaken, is almost identical to Vegeta's.)

Food Chain Goblins
// Mana
3 Mountain
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Mana Crypt  
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Chrome Mox
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal  
// Creatures
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Skirk Prospector
4 Goblin Recruiter
4 Goblin Piledriver
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Goblin Matron
3 Goblin Warchief  
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander
// Combo
4 Food Chain

The Stripless build runs -4 Wasteland -1 Strip Mine, +1 Warchief, +1 Ancient Tomb, +3 Mountain. If necessary, you can swap any power for Elvish Spirit Guides. (Except Ruby, which should be swapped for a Mountain.)

I think that about covers it. With the exception of perhaps 3 cards in the manabase, I believe this build is identical to Vegeta's. With regards to the Strip vs. Non-strip debate, I'm still on the fence, but having dropped the 4th Warchief for another Mountain is pushing me towards the Strip build.

[Hero]

Ah, wow, my bad.  For some reason I was thinking Hull Breach was an instant.  

Ah well.

What do you think about Mox Diamond?  I'm on the fence with it..some games it really helps and some games it's just a dead card.

[GodzillA]

What do you think about Mox Diamond?  I'm on the fence with it..some games it really helps and some games it's just a dead card.

I give it a meh. Even though this build is running 24-25 mana sources, it's still very tight on mana. It really can't afford to be throwing away a land in the early game. I'm against it.

[Andreas]

Just a thought on the Lotus Petal <-> ESG debate:

One big advantage the ESG has is that it is acceleration that also works with a Trinisphere in play, while you would have to pay 3 to get the Petal into play.

[Prometheus]

I don't see a debate between ESG and Petal. Petal can produce R and that's it. I will never cut a Petal for an ESG.

[GodzillA]

I don't see a debate between ESG and Petal. Petal can produce R and that's it. I will never cut a Petal for an ESG.

Truth. The only time ESG would be a better choice is if you lost your Petal two minutes before the tournament, or your meta consists solely of Fish and MUD. In most cases, Petal is superior because it can produce red.