My question was did they errata Meddling Mage not allowing the Cycleing to be activated......
i am very familar with the abilitys as i even gave examples.....

Mage can also easily swap Chalice SB slot. The Biggest problem with Mage is it simply can just be overpowered. Let Take a look at Death Long, You have to name tendrils (otherwise they will use Tendrils to kill the mage), but without a secound mage naming Death Wish before they wish for the answer, it is meaninless. consider you have to play two cards with UW UW it is hard for circustances to be in your favour. Against Tendrils decks Chalice > Mage

I believe if you look at all the decks out there mage is really only good against Oath. It is a better sideboard against Dragon than chalice, but i do not believe it should be played over chalice.

Against Control, most thier Cards overlaps with yours, it will be hard to benefit greately from mage.



I am to blame for that, this is also how i have been developing and testing the deck.

Rules Questions: Does Cycleing counts as being played? You can stifle it becuase it is an ability, and work understandstill but for Mage abilty, cannot be played, did they errata mage to allow it to hurt decree?
Rules questions belong in the rules forum. I'm moving all the subsequent discussion of this point there.
-Jacob

Jason

PS Bill are you coming to Friday night at COD? or 1.5 on Monday? We can the different aspects of the deck. Manuel & John will be present.

To run a stripmine means you also have to supplement this, with either full set of stripes, adding nullrod. (this was fish's real strenght, and stifle fetches hurt a lot). Having a single card to attack your oppents manabase is going to do a little.

Weismass was a fan of reactive control. This stragety is strong against Aggro, but lacks a lot keys to stop combo, and is not a postive against another control deck matchup. The game has change dramtically since then, and you are time stamping your thoughs on 10 year old strageys. Not recommoneded.

The Whole point of this deck is ProActive control.



Old Man also improves the match up of multi Control decks, against Monoblue. Althought Decree actaully puts a clock on MonoBlue, Stealing an Ophie increases the pressure on MonoBlue, and most imporantely attempts to slow down thier counter walls.

Agreeded Explosives is powerful. The problem with Explosives is that a lot cases you want to use it for blow it for zero. With Lack of Wastelands it doesn;t allow you to really take advantage of this.

Zherbus has used the approach to attack the Business cards of the decks. Not to sit back and allow the business cards to hit play. Tog Plays this card because on ocassion it does have to clear the way.

To me Cunning Wish is suppose fill the same flexability opition, and it imporantly it is blue. Many Match up i would rather have One Spector over one Explosives, just to say true to deny business spells.

Jason

Zherbus,

Sorry my intendition was not criticize you, or your deck,

I just wanted just give my suggestion and my advise and thoughts, amd promote where else this should go.




Regarlding this Example, An expierence control slaver player will not dump A MindSlaver when you have a active furance, unless they can proctect it. When you attempt to remove the slaver, all they have to do is weld out the slaver, and your furance is defeated.


Rich Shay did menition that many time he feels he does not just want to play Thirst, he rather wait for better timing or hoarding them. When in a situation like such as this, he would wait until when he can actiavte welder into a slaver or attempt to. Wouldn't This suggest Furance will have a hard time trying get rid of the Slaver threat?

At least with Planar Void there can be the end to slaving, until they wish up disenchant.


If you also analyze the how Slaver Function, it combo procedure (correct term?) is only compareable to the one other, Dragon. Only really needs two cards to go off, three to make the kill. Slaver want to go I control you and then recur the slaver. Therefore if you stop the Recur (Goblin Welder) You can control matchup. That is the main reason for my to Include Plague Spittler. It prevent them from recurring the Slaver.

To Play Planar Void, The ideal play would to play this card after you develop your graveyard, but this is again idea, not the gospel turth. in many cases One large scrying is all you need.

Question how would Oath React to Planar Void? I do not believe it will be a counter, because the same removal of thier of thier wins would be swords. But Salavanger oath, would not like to see void.

Jason

Zherbus,

I will have to disagree with your example. When they Thirst for Knowledge, They can declare 2 items to be discarded. Your example only works when they Discard The Desired Target on Top. Since it part of the card effect, to discard they do not stack one card and then the next. It is both cards at once. If i overlooked the rules in matter please advise.

Jason

I agree with you on the Example, I will have to reconsider,

Off a turn one Void yes you are correct you cannot draw, but the correct move is not to play a turn one void against slaver, and will have card in your yard.

For Referance here is what i am currently Running:

Mana Base (25)
3 Underground Seas
3 Tundra
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strads
1 Swamp
2 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Strip Mine
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring


Control (13)
3 Duress
4 Mana Drains
4 Force of Wills
2 Sword of Plowshare

Draw (14)
4 Brain Storm
3 Skeletal Scrying
1 Demonic Tutor
2 Cunning Wish
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Mystical Tutor

Bomb (3)
1 Yawgmoth Will
1 Balance
1 Mind Twist

Meta Game (4)
2 Plague Spittler
2 Exalted Angel


Side Board (15)

Wish (6)
1 Sword of PlowShare
1 Snuff out
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Coffin Purge
1 Disenchant
1 Daze
1 Skeletal Scrying

Game Two?? (9)
3 Planar Void
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Duress

 I really wanted to be proactive about the enviroment. I though hard about it, and releazied my problems were going to be Welder and Fish's tough fight. I though about enginerred plagues and relazie i can do one better. So I put a creature from the Past, back in Mask block. Plague Spittler. While in Play It kills Welders, and PREVENTS peoeple from laying down welders. Even dropping this after they have slaved you and have infinite slaver on board will break you of the hole. Therefore is the same or close Psychology with Duress it stunts thier growth and must dig for weak solutions present in most workshop or slaver decks. Fishes creates almost all just die from it, and this has strong game against Random Aggro trying to make it. This creature also stops Juggy, and trisks when it needs to kill it. Morphings have to watch how much mana they are goign to leave open to it. And well against sligh you games increase =)) All this for 2 colourless and one black and 2/2 beater. Efficetly beating down for 3.

Jason

I agree regarlding Welder & Trigger Effects. Think of this Even if they have Slaver in Yard and welder in Play, and able to slave you. Slaver becomes one shot wonder.

Furance is very strong, but all decks with welders have outs to Furance, Few have abilites to deal with Void.

Zherbus,

I want to Discuss the Merits of using Planar Void in place of Phyrexian Furnace.

As we all know Control Slaver is one of the top deck. Phyrexian Furance Hurts the player and remove thier limited Win Conditions, but since this is an arifact, they have Oppunirtes to weld away this card, or Wish for a Rack or Ruin. Doesn't this make a weaker opition Against Control Slaver?

This is why I propose to use Planar Void instead. First lets look at the Cards, Furance and Void both a 1 drop. Both still are clear the field of the graveyard hate.  Control Slaver usually does not field enchament removal. It stops All Welding Advantages and leaves you both without out. Although i can see you debating this seriously impare yawgmoth will, but this scarifced is on both of you, plus you have this critial piece information and side it out for vamp tutor.

Dragon that run with Green or Deed will be able to deal with Furance or Void, but Three colour verus Two seems to be showing smaller showing, due to Strong Non Basic hate in the current field.

Psychatog Game becomes very weak against Void. Ideally it will want to Destroy the Void before it starting drawing into the it win, but with lets say 2-3 wishes 1-2 deeds / engieered explosives. Tog will have to great measures to deal with a void.

Void Also has a strong Match up against Tendrils Combo Decks, Wouldn;t the Correct Sideboard be: +4 Chalice +3 Void +1 Vamp tutor -2 Cunning Wish -2 Swords -1 Yawgmoth Will -1 Decree -1 Balance -1 Old Man of the Sea. If you think about it kills Yawgmoth Will, which most combo deck play combo as if Yawgmoth Will is the deck, Draw Seven's Lose a lot of thier Power. A lot of people just will not know how to deal with this, and allow you steal these games away.

On your article you cleary State that The Win Condition could be amoung many of the different items selected. There is one thing to consider. Exlated Angle actaully has a better games against Tendrils and Doomsday.

Doomsday says my game plan is bring your life from 20 or less to 0. After you bring yourself over 20 Doomsday has to storm up one more spell. A lot time this will not be too much of a problem, But it makes it critial they have another mana source in play to cast that spell to go off.  For every Swing Doomsday has to play resource and turn catch up.  Against Tendrils this does have a similar effect, but it starts to Shine against the much slower TPS. A fast Angel Will make TPS play hurry up, which the deck is not designed to do. Allowing you steal more games away from these players.

Jason

Personal Note: I have you(Zherbus) mailed the other opitions on removing the 2 other win for metagame calls. Please let me know if you did not recieved it, i have since updated my list.

thanks for the followup, i will let people know, probaly at least me and thomas will be there, wayne expressed instrest for next time. I will speard the world, see you at legends.

jason

Thomas misplayed on his part through that stack, but he learned =P Afterwards on our drive home he was commenting even though he lost he said the match was incredible =)

Next time i won;t ID in third round =)

my point still stands on tog, if they smack you around with rootwater theif three time against standard tog guess what, no more tog. does it matter if it has distrupution maybe, but the simple fact is it still depends on one card alone. Meddling mage both deed and tog, or you fail to resolve even one tog, or fail to actaully take your oppents life away. TOG IS ABOUT TOG and that is it, everything else is just snygergy with the deck and to protect the one card combo.

if you actaully read, i exclaimed in many cases how secound sunrise is garbage in type one, and also menitioned the reasoning why it was in ravanger affinity in hte first place. but excuse me all you do is look at grammer and not at thoughs. so shrugs i am the one getting left out. and yes i have done plenty of testing in type one with ravanger and it just simply sucks i menitioned what cards just shut it down completey where the player has to concede ect, but i guess you are so caught up in the fact that i can post a type two deck explain the reasoning for all the cards, and then go around and say how uselessly so many of cards in the deck for type one just doesn;t belong. forget it i don;t have time to waste on people who don;t listen.

Damping Field is winter orb for artfacts, parfait

Phyrexian Gate is black natural answer, Sui still plays it

Mogg salvage also sees quite a bit of play in Slavery against fish / landstill

Shattering Pulse, with buyback is great

Echoing Ruin, socery speed, doesn;t have too many hits in type one of the same, only really again tnt, and stacker.

Pillage, casting cost of three and alternative selection of land.

Disenchant and shatter becuase of Ishochrons.

This deck doesnt depend on one card, it just contains one card which allows you to win more and seal your  win away and alternately. In fact i don;t hear you saying that about tog, which is completely depended on one card. Focused affinity

Actaully i played a secound sunrise deck in regionials a couple of week back and if it wasn;t for a dumb mistake in counting when i was exhuasted i would of top 8 out of 637 players 16 hours of spent in past times, but this is what i piloted for reference.

Bounce?
by Jason Clark

Beats
x4 arcbound ravanger
x4 arcbound worker
x4 myr enforcer
x4 frogmite
x3 ornipother <- all this does is give ravanger flying

Draw
x4 skull clamp
x3 thoughcast
x4 aetherspell bomb

Tech
x4 leonin elder <- MVP over and over again.
x3 displice of the vault
x2 secound sunrise
 
Mana
x3 taliman of impluse
x4 city of brass
x4 anciet den
x4 seat of synod
x4 vault whisper
x2 blinkmouth nexus

SB
x3 exalated angels
x4 mana leak
x1 secound sunrise
x3 echoing turth
x1 discplice of the valut
x3 gensis chamber

I did after alot of play testing for type 2 format only, that secound sunrise would be vaible beucase lack of "Hard Counter" There is simply Voidmage Prodigity and Vex (which is never runned due to how it crap out). In the format bouncing an opposing ravanger, which moves all counters to elsewhere or simply disapeer is king, and then secound sunrising allowing you to repeat the process, and with my elder gaining amazing life gain in the enviroment allowed me to smack down 6 out of 11 ravangers deck i faced that day with ease. Becuase TYPE 2 DECKS are so few and only 3 deck are competitive you can run a such deck. beucase of SECOUND SUNRISE it was a TYPE TWO TIME WALK, in hte format, where everything comes back into play UNTAPPED, and allowing you to do it all again. So since i am a type one player i made my deck unlike every other ravanger deck out and added to what i consider type one deck designs, of card advantage and redunecy and many layers of threats. Since the only really mass removal in type on is balance, secound sunrise hardly allows you to deal with oppents threats, but since ravanger does struggle with monowhite control, placing in bomb in this format only of secound sunrise from a vengance or wrath changes board positition once again. How do are you going to make this effective here i have no idea. Those would be the only reason why you would play Secound Sunrise, it just doesn;t find a home in Ravanger decks in type one YET, nor a strong choice for any other deck due to white unpowered colour.

Glimmer void is just plain horrid in the meta. In type two with 12 post and mono red land d attacking your manabase and pryclasm or fireballing glimmer void just tends to be left alone. even a secound turn oxide just blows up the land, this is type one where an oppent can blow up your other artifacts and you lose yet another land just for not meeting the requirements. City of brass is just a superior choice.

I also built my friend ravanger deck, and played with affinity with oversold cemetry sword of fire and ice, solab goblin tinker, and he also did perform as well as i did. even though you can say sure ravanger is hte best deck and bound to get finishes up there, every other builds were tuned to smash face. How many type 2 deck have come from that format and performed well in vintage, several, Tog and Madness come to mind, becuase they both had easy drawing enginies. Ravanger does not, skullclamp is just so eaten alive with null rods that it is hated out. Ravanger is also going to take the spash damage that mask nought takes also, artifact hate to due to workshop based decks.

And as other menitioned Null rod damping matrix gets you good, since the latter is the only threat in type 2, that is where bounecing comes in, echoing turth, and my counters mana leaks, therefore type one staples are needed.

Black and Blue spashing white for the same theme would be the main colour unlike my type two build where it is Blue and White spashing black. So Brainstorms, Force of the wills, workshop, thirst for knowledge, restricted goodness needed to be addeded to provide any impact, but one problem with ravanger is that it alsmost plays just like sligh does, becuase thier tempo is the same, it has no early game, and suffer even disruption that Suicide black carries.

so after all that let me ask you this why play ravanger affinity in type one? only one things comes to mind, surpise, and other surpise decks are zoo, and panderburst, which for a good reason are not played anymore. I couldn;t even classify Affinity as a rogue deck.

jason

If you are stalled out in those situtation how does mind's eye break it open for you? you still cannot activate artifacts, and with damping, you cannot weld. Try a blue draw seven in that slot then, if you want to protect your blue colour count. most of those cards you did mention granted your maindeck or sideboard should hose, expect brainstorm and thirst for knowledge. Blood moon for bazaar, chalice set for two for ak. Well of Knowledge you also might want to consider, it has some real fancy welding tricks.

I suggest - time walk for stifle or misdirection, espically with that metagames you are facing. Mis- d ancestrall recall always bring a smile, and stifleing opposing welders, wastelands and an early fetch land is a time walk. A medicore choice would be Terfie's Response, depending on what you are expecting. Fire and ice i do not advise, it just does not pull it weight.

A good fat creature is Sundering Titan. you can pull welding tricks here and against many powered decks bring thier resources to a halt, not only that a 7/10 beater is a 3 turn clock.

I ran this verison about two month ago.  i piloted my build to several T1 tourment victories, but the power level of the competition wasn;t always the hightest.

Void's Mask

The Mana source
1 black lotus
1 mox jet
1 mana crytp
1 sol ring
3 Wastelands
1 Strip mine
14 swamps
4 Dark Ritual

Toys
4 Illusioniary Mask
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Hynpotic Specter
2 Withered Wretch

No
4 Duress
3 Hymn of Tourach
4 Sink Holes
3 Nether Voids
3 Pox

Suicide
1 Necropotence
1 Spoils of the Vault
1 Demoic Consulations
1 Demoic Tutor

Secound Game
2 Withered wretch
3 Diabloic Edicts
1 Yawgmoth's Will
4 Unmask
3 Phyrexian Negators
2 Phyrexian Gate


Pox??? with the amount of fetches and Fetches and single point self inflicted damamge i have pox and swinged with a Dreadnought for kills many time over. It is also creature removal, Hand disprution, land d which also suppliments this deck.

Nether Void??? when you think about it only seems natural, mask creature sneak pask creatures. With combo always threatning, an early void allows you to stablize, and stop storm based decks. This also allows you to play the time game, since your drawing power does equal most deck out there you have to play the Control, not beatdown to take matches.

Oringally i ran more spoils of htre vault, but it didn;t happen to often but self destrustion was not fun at all. A single Spoils is still superior to Vamperic tutor, due to you don;t have enought drawing power as it is.

Against welders, black lotus is always sided out, even though it is a impact card, having welding of lotus for dreadnought is just too serious of a blow to you.

I have since stopped playing mask based decks and have moved on to other rogue decks (ie: G/W Life) and workshop slaver.

Anymore Squee's makes the deck STOF based. Also oathing out a Squee is just horrible, and if you don't have STOF in play it is a dead draw. Gensis would far be a better choice than the additionial Squee. Recurs when Sneak Attack only is the one field. The major problem with this deck is its  inconstistly. Suggestions, for drawing power Mirria's Guile, Sylan Libary, Scroll Rack, Winds of Change. I also advise to cut oath of druids for Bird of Paradise. THe Vineyard is not effective for you until the followig turn and is not a frequent turn one drop. Elvish Spirit guides would be a better choice, becuase of STOF, another creature to dump, And it fatfree mana accerlation, and does not acceralte your oppent like Vineyards does. Seething song and anciet tombs should be considered also. For Bugdet players and players who have trouble finding erueka Naturual Selection is a Pluasible replacement.

manuel

What has he decided workshop twister?, and i was speaking with both johns on legend wednesday type 1 tourment, and they mentioned mask too? let me know what is going on, and tourment dates, beucase you were unsure before. if so could you also advise on the following tourment for nonstore credit? and min number of people you need for a turnout, i spoke with some legend people and some seem more than mildly instrested. Although if it wasn;t 5 proxy you are aware that most are not powered and that is a loss of instrests, for them.

jason



Past time also has a great collection of cards. Power always seem to be on hand there. Phil did you attend regionials?

therefore if that is correct a fireball can target infinite number of targets, and since it cost was reduced it was treated as a sperate spell for each target otherwise it reduction would not have happened = infinite storm count

but that rules in it self has problem becuase it says it take away from hte total casting cost, but it applied seperately you cannot have both, otherwise that is double reduction.

"The cost reduction is not applied separately to each thing, however, it is applied just once to the total cost."

yaya that makes sense? so in itself it claims that you don;t apply them seperately but go on have that example of capsize which then contradicts itself

the problem i see with those statis builds and you are on the right track i think to make it stronger is statis takes too long to setup and while it setup it doesn;t bring any tempo lose to your oppent (ie as sphere or trinitsphere would). creatures used make the lock take even longer to spring into action. some though to replace creatures with: ishochron, orim chant, cunning wish, maze of ith, winter orbs, cursed totem, hmm getting tired more will come later

two thing are wrong with what are you saying, one the ruleing which i restate below, the secound thing is buyback cost is part of an additionial cost, ie sack a land, (raze). the additionail cost of a spell itself does not define itself as spell otherwise you would run into another problem then if you are correct, it is storm +1, which is incorrect. additional cost are treated as abilties.



it says specfically "A copy of a spell itself a spell, but it has no spell card associated with it."

meaning it place on the stack as a spell but is not affected by anything that is affects spells. and buyback is mentioned here specifcally to make it a clear example.

the reason i mentioned phage in full english breakfeast is becuase you will use volrath shapeshifter to copy the top card of the graveyard, volarath ablities never goes on hte stack since it work as a continous effect. phage states if you didn;t play it from your hand you lose the game, since you offically never played it would kill you but it was never trigger (see triggers) becuase it never came into play. the same with buyback the abilties are copied but never come into play unless resolution where it checks it trigger. ie sneak attack (abilties resolves and then check the creature come into play status).

so with your reasoning , would helm take a mana cost off entwine? my answer is no for the same reason.

same with me i need another place to play, anyone want to organize something here?

sorry you were mislead through hear say, instead of going directly to the rules.



it is ruled as an abilty not another spell



it a copy isn;t played how can the spell cost be reduced by one? if you were right phage in full english breakfeast would kill you everytime.

also why create inferior cards such as memory crystal if buyback was treated as the same effect, maybe that is why they choose to rule it in this fashion.

the ruling is very clear on this, buyback is specificy mentioned in both and is mentioned in more columns in the rulings but those are the only ones on topic. therefore maxuim reduction of cost is through one helm

exactly what i said since the beginning



aoe player?

yes it does, tradionial acedemcy decks just aren;t as competitive

@LoA sorry english is my third language, but thats no excuse but i usually don;t catch my grammer mistakes well becuase to me they make sense lol.






all you ever can down is to 7 buyback is not a seperate cost it as part of the casting cost. Candelabra of Tawnos cost 1 you cannot reduce it anymore, capsize has only one 1 colourless in it casting, therefore uu it never reduced.

duress is limited and not reactive in this deck, counterspell is reactive, no pint in revelaving you hand and thier with duress, and if you yank a counter it is the same as a counter but if not it allow you take care of other threats. and sure if you cast abeyance hmm if they havea counter sure they counter and then whatever goes on goes on. but with - abeyance sure you play your spell they counter, you counter,, if they have two ocunter this doesn;t work anyways, but a counter spell also target other items that can kill you abeyance is not specific to this degree.

simply put if you don;t have your god hand to begin with, you deck will almost sit there and do nothing.

Lack of early drawing abilty. brain storm would help a lot - mediate,

helm??? why?? if you are going off you don;t need cheaper spells. fast bond would work so muc better. and yotu would only drop it going off and it doesn;t make any difference in your case, since reduction of colouress is pointess in most of your spells, and oif you drop it and say go your oppentent will take advantage of it very fast.

duress and abeyance should be taken out for counter spells, they act as a counter spell but abeyance doesn;t help you during your turn. if you get mana drain instead the abilty to jump start your combo next turn increases.

hurk recall or retrace? would help a lot bounce your artifacts back to you hand and drop them again. - wheel

mom (mind over matter) is almost essitinal in your build for you to have an explosive hand, and one null rod will shut you down pretty fast. for reduceny try + deserted temple - strip mine you just don;t run any other distrupution one will not help


frantice search should be in main deck, the abilty to untap acedemy really shines.

the more allowed proxies = the reduced cost in chase cards. Since most players with a limited budget perfer not to get their playset if they could proxy, the chase rares prices i would assume drop something like 10-20%.

Proxy create a stronger and healthy envirorment. Major events proxies should be reduced to max of 5 or less, simply put if every one proxies then there is no need to own any of the cards. otherwise local tourments or events sure 10 15 or whatever, but i feel nay more than 10 would be playing apprentice so to speak.

Remember Collectabilty of cards is also part of playing this great game.

i rather own the cards myself and set proxies to 0 it just always more fun to play the real thing, it gives the moments a lasting impressions.

if someone already missed this sorry i didn;t catch i was skimming through.

for sui to be competetive it must be able to lay down a lot more threats and have distrupion to make the seal the games away, or distrupution to slow down thier game while you drop a threat, with 8 creatures either possibly is not easily achieved.   splashing sui  takes away the explosivness. only one other colour comes to mind if you want to splash and that is red, mox monkey pup bolt rack & ruin, but again that build doesn;t seem that strong, in fact could be even weaker unless you are facing a lot workshop based decks (-slavery).  you are trying to add in a steady engie for a mid game, with sui i really hope there isn;t a mid  - late game becuase the chances of winning are reduceded greately.