It's a good 1 of in the sideboard as a Cunning Wish target for Tog.  It would also be better board vs Oath then Annul for Fish.  It basically comes down to being a very narrow metagame dependant card.

OMG!  Do we have the makings of some kind of crazy ass Serum Powder Combo deck in the running here?   :lol:

I can see it not being a bad sideboard choice in a deck that has more ways to filter it's draws.  Like running Bazaars, Unmasks or maybe in Replenish.

I honestly think that Uba's best bet is to simply run the Lightning Bolts in the sideboard like Sims was running.  They can kill Old Man in 1 shot or combo with Barbarian Rings to take down a bigger man.   Only problem is sometimes by the time you get threshold (and a Ring on the table at the same time) you likely could have just hard cast a Duplicant instead.  Getting out a Ring and 2 extra red sources I guess could be a little problematic when trying to take out an Efreet which is what usually ends up sealing the deal at the end.

Stop getting ideas from Arend.  :lol:

Just so you know... he can be stolen with the Old Man, so you'd need to resolve him first.  Kinda a little too situational if you ask me, but a worthy idea none the less.
 

My views from a different perspective on a smaller scale:

I tend to agree that the 35-50 player attended tournaments are overlooked.  But I can understand how it would be rather difficult to include these if they aren't all reported or have deck lists.  The Canadian metagame is mostly consisted of tournaments of this size.  Infact, the level of competition on average for one of these tournaments held in Ontario is completely sickening.  Every tournament of a size of 30+ people I can expect to see on average of at least 8-12 players that have top 8 or multiple top 8 performances in rather large US venues.  Mostly because it's these hardcore Vintage players that dictate the metagame and show up to every tournament.  It's not like a 35 person tournament with 1 or 2 dominant players.

Stax has actually in the last year placed really poor results in Ontario.  It's been tried and played by very good players as well but just can't survive the metagame.  Maybe it's because a high % of great players here choose to play control decks or hate decks for the most part.  Myself along with 2 other friends have every card to make and play 5c Stax or Uba Stax but choose not to.  I'd say at least 6 or 7 people in our area could play the decks unproxied but choose not to.  I believe Stax decks when surviving early rounds gets stronger and may be better suited for larger venues where more players feel the need to play with the top tier decks.  Or decks that have X win % versus certain popular archetypes.  The sad thing is this is the root of laziness and net-decking.  Stax doesn't perform nearly as well when faced with randomness or the Rogue factor.  What a lot of people don't pick up on is that there is a lot of random Rogue out there that can beat multiple Stax variants.  No one just has the Ballz or desire to play that stuff in major tournaments.  Everyone must play with the potential to go broken.  I myself have come to prefer playing with consistency based around Hate strategies. 

The amazing thing is decks like R/G beatz or Sligh can be tuned to win, but will always be neglected due to the lack of potential to go broken.  I wonder what would happen if 10 really good players decided to take R/G Beatz to a Starcity Games and fine tune it to have game versus the top 2 or 3 decks.   

What has made me proud of my team in the last year is pure faith in our deck which ended the year winning 7 pieces of Power, Bazaar, Library, and don't think ever failed to top 8 at least one person when played at a tournament.  Had 2-3 tournaments place 3-4 in the top 8 and even top 4.  Including 3 top 8 showings in two SCG P9.  This deck is played only by a total of 5 people  in the world and looks like rubbish.  I myself only played the deck in maybe 5 tournaments all year.  Plus our team only consists of moderately good players.  By no means are we an example of the best Canada has to offer.  So what is to explain the success of the deck?  It wasn't played by the best players,  and it wasn't running the best cards.  It doesn't include any random top deck I win cards, but yet it can be picked up by a beginner and taken to a top 8 at a Star City Rochester... that is pretty damn cool. 

So yes, a Vintage year in review clearly shows that Stax dominated the metagame.  I blame the Manadrain, SCG, self promotion (in general), secrecy and laziness.

After experiencing this year of Vintage there is only 1 thing I'd like to see go...  Tinker/Darksteel.  It has become too much of a crutch for a lot of decks and is number 1 on the Cheese scale.  I don't believe it's overpowering, I just believe it's frustrating.  Is there a way to errata either card as to not be able to work in conjunction?

I'd just like to say you do an awesome job Smmenen and hopefully always remain truly dedicated to Vintage.

I totally disagree.  In a Stax VS Fish match up the Null Rods are far more dead in the Stax players hand then they are in the Fish players.  If my opponents turn one play is something as terribly weak as Workshop plus Null Rod he is going to lose.

WORD OF COMMAND>>>>YES!!!!  PLZ errata this to make more useful. LOL  I want mini slaver!

Hidden Horror
Trash for Treasure
Rites of Refusal
Mask of Memory

Yes, we do that specifically so there are no possible deck list errors.  I had 3 deck checks done on me and was glad to have 3 other people look over my list.  One of my opponents received a game loss due to incorrect deck list registration.  Strangely enough he ended up being my loss in swiss.  Anyways, glad we made things easy for you.   

Hey, you can't take all the credit here.  I regretably took out a fellow Canadian, Marc Sims in the first round.  Then later in round 7 defeated Keean Handy who made the game 3 Chalice at zero play against me.   :shock:  Ironically, it was only a game because of that misplay.  Otherwise I had a godly hand of:  Fetch, Mox Pearl, Crucible, Pithing Needle, STP, Standstill, Seal of Cleansing.  My first draw was Mox Sapphire, followed shortly by some FoW's.  I should also mention I was playing OFM a U/W Canadian Fish variant that Stax should never, ever, ever lose to under absolutely no circumstances unless my opponents are terrible players.  I feel soo lucky.  

As for a deck list of OFM 2K5 you could have at least posted the one that placed 2 in the top 8 at Star City P9 Rochester 6 months ago.  I don't think Star City allows us to withhold decklists, so if you want to playtest the match then just wait for the next list to be posted from this passed Rochester.  

I wasn't meaning this to be about how our deck wrecks Uba Mask.  I said earlier I simply thought it was slightly favourable.  I only initially posted to show how a deck might be able to beat this juggernaut of a deck in a duel.  I suppose you prefer more ignorant responses such as there is no way it should lose unless the pilot was terrible, etc, etc.  The first Uba player was a very skilled player that I had to face both in Swiss and Top 8.  The second was 4-0-2 before my match.  I think they would also disagree with your assessment of them being terrible players.

Anyways, I will not be posting anything else in this thread unless I have something insightful to add to Vromans deck.  I do infact playtest the deck myself.  It is currently one of my favorite decks just to play around with and always a heavy consideration of mine for tournament play.

Very good point Zomar.  A sub-par Fish deck will get killed by Stax.  OFM 2K5 is not at all geared towards beating Stax though.  Initially, it was meant to defeat the rise of Oath, TPS and Slaver.  We see very little Stax around our area and anything that hits it is just a bonus.  It just so happens that certain cards that may seem "suboptimal" are infact pretty good against a random metagame.  Crucible of Worlds is very under used in Fish.  Sometimes I wish I had more Disenchant effects then I already do as well.  Old Man of the Sea is a bit more questionable, but he is simply better main deck.

Overall though, most U/W Fish builds aren't too similar to OFM 2K5 and Uba Stax isn't going to have a lot of trouble beating them.  But if you plan on playing it here in Canada I'd recommend metagaming it more to hate out OFM 2K5 or play a different deck.

Well let me explain it a bit then.  OFM 2K5 wins the Crucible wars and wins the Welder wars...  why?  Because there are 4 FoW, Seals of Cleansings, STP's, Crucibles and Old Men of the Sea all in the maindeck.  Then 9 or 10 more cards are sided in for games 2 and 3.  Duplicant is pretty bad when you can't weld them and require 6 mana when your Workshops and Bazaars are continuously wasted.  Smokestacks are allowed to resolve cause I'm the one with the Crucible and the Ninja drawing cards.  Uba Mask isn't a threat unless there is a Bazaar out and that usually isn't very long.  Maze of Ith is terrible when I keep recurring my Wastelands.  Chalice is the biggest threat, but OFM 2K5 runs a evenly balanced distribution of 1, 2, 3 cc answers.  So 1 resolved Chalice usually isn't enough for the Uba player.  If they set it to 1 they can't drop Welders.  If they go Welder, Chalice for 1, then I drop an Old Man that can't be Pyroblasted cause of the Chalice for 1.  The match isn't 70-30 in OFM 2K5's favor, but I'd say it is a favourable match up. 

Btw, I'd just like to add that Uba Stax is a very good deck and is real fun to play.  Nice job constructing this beast Vroman.

Maybe he's worried about Fish in Canada cause they run maindeck Old Men of the Sea, Crucible of Worlds, Seal of Cleansings, and STP's.   

Well, CoF is just my preference.  Maybe they do suck now, but I like dropping multiple permanents on the same turn.  That slot could be replaced with 3x of any other 1 or 2cc drop as well.  I can see a lot of problems getting the Wretch out with his current mana base though.  I might even consider replacing those with Nazumi Graverobbers.

I kind of lost track on which thread this was I was posting in, so congrats on the 11th place in Chicago.  Your deck looks strong and these are only very minor suggestions/ideas I have for maybe making a few weaker matches a bit stronger.  I've been recently trying to figure out a viable version of U/B that I can feel comfortable with and your deck looks pretty solid.  Feel free to give any ideas a try.

I always thought Fish's main beaters were the Mishra's Factories?  Why does no one count those??  To me this deck has 16 beaters.  I also think any Fish builds today should still be using/abusing at least 2 copies of Crucible of Worlds in the main deck.  I know more people are playing with Basics, but this card is still a huge bomb for any deck.  (Recurring Blockers/Creatures, Wastelands and Thinning the deck are pretty nice advantages).   

Recommended Changes:

-3 Brainstorm (Deck is way too redundant + I think you're getting greedy here.  Or maybe you just like easy sideboarding decisions  ), -1 Stifle (Random, terrible top deck.).
+2 Crucible of Worlds (Your even running Lotus and 2x Mox to make this a turn 1 or 2 decent play.  Not to mention it can be key to defeating Stax and massively improves your match-up in that department).  The key to the Stax match can come down to who resolves the first 1 of these.
+2 other cards.. well, I'd probably change the deck slightly in it's creature content... -->see below.
I'm still loving the Cloud of Faeries...  I'd have to try -1 Confidant, -1 Wretch, +4 Cloud of Faeries.  I'd at least cut 1 Wretch though since double black is not your friend and this is likely not a common turn 2 drop.

Your mana base seems a little light, but I guess it seems to work for you in playtesting.   

Mana: (24)

3x Underground Sea
4x Polluted Delta
1x Flooded Strand
3x Island
1x Swamp
4x Mishra's Factories
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Sapphire

Creatures: (14)

4x Cloud of Faeries (or -1, +1 Confidant.  These would be your only critters with any evasion if you should include them).
4x Mesmeric Fiend
3x Withered Wretch
3x Dark Confidant

Disruption: (15)

4x Force of Will
3x Daze
3x Duress
3x Null Rod
2x Chain of Vapor

Draw/Broken: (8)

4x Standstill
2x Crucible of Worlds
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Time Walk

Anyways, love or hate my minor suggestions, I think you should test out CoW in place of Brainstorms.

Btw, I really like the look of the deck and your Mesmeric Fiend tech is mint!

Harlequin, I'm definately thinking you've posted the strongest list on here.  A lot of what your buddy says makes perfect sense.  You can tell he has a lot of experience playing the deck.  Me and my friend Dan worked on a version of Fish we like to call Old Faerie Men.  Or now OFM 2K5. Basically, we took Fish, cut Curiosity, added Old Man of the Sea and maindeck CoW.  We updated the version to U/W 2K5 with the arrival of Forbidden Orchard Oath.  Our build has had a lot of success here in Canada, and still to this day is constantly putting 1-2 decks into the top 8 at 40 person tournaments.  And trust me there is a lot of competition at one of these tournaments.  Usually at least 5-8 players show up that have made top 8 at various major US tournaments such as Star City P9, Gencon, Mana Drain Open, and Waterbury.  Our list is basically the same one that me and a fellow team NoneSense member each took to top 8 at Star City Rochester.

One of the common arguments seems to be Vial + Jitte or Null Rod.

I like to think of U/W Fish as a lock down deck.  With each card you play, you are either crippling your opponents resources, using cheap spells to counter costly threats or laying perments on the table that shut off percentages of your opponents deck.

U/W Fish can still win many, MANY games with out drawing a single Standstill or drawing any extra cards.  This is done because the deck is designed to cripple your opponents deck, take away his strategy and make himself waste Tutors and Wishes on answers rather then trying to win on his own terms.  A lot of games turn into scrappy, top-decking jank fests.  That is essentially what this deck is focused on accomplishing.  Forcing your opponent into finding other ways of winning.  Taking away the easy plays and complicating matters.  In the meanwhile your whittling away his life with near costless and multi-tasking creatures. 

Why I don't like Jitte in Fish.  As said in a previous post it is too mana intensive and does nothing at crippling your opponents deck.  In a deck that runs few creatures in playtesting I found there were far too many occasions that you can't keep a creature on the board or draw 1 and have a Jitte out at the same time.  If your speeding up your clock with Jitte your also allowing your opponent to play with his full set of Power. 

With Gifts being such a prominent deck atm why wouldn't you be running Null Rods.  Gifts fears the Rod.  I playtest Gifts all the time and Null Rod does a great job at slowing that deck down to a crawl. 

Strategy vs Gifts.  3x Maindeck Null Rod,  play Meddling Mage and choose either Gifts or Tinker depending on how fast you are going to beat him down.  Side in 4x CotV and set to 1 to shut off Ancestral, Brainstorm and Chain of Vapor.  (Note that our list doesn't run 1cc creatures to fully utilize CotV).  Also a turn 1 CotV for zero is the better play when going first and not having a Rod in hand.  If you get a 2nd Chalice set it to 2 and proceed the beats with Factories and Ninjas.  If Gifts is very highly played in your area i'd suggest running some of the mentioned cards in Harequins post in the sideboard.  Abeyance as well as Extracts are fairly decent options.

Vial isn't necessary in U/W Fish.  Cloud of Faeries is still your best creature if you plan on using Ninjas or playing with Null Rods and Standstills.  There is just too much synergy between the 3 cards not to be using 4 of each. 

OFM 2K5 has a very similiar list as the one posted by Harequin.  The major difference is the choice of Flying Men and Javlineers Vs siding in CotV for 1?

I love Flying Men, but don't really care for Javlineers mainly since they have no evasion.  This can be critical when trying to deal the last few points of damage to an opponent.  His list isn't running Clouds, which I think is a big mistake in any U/W list though.  It's not that rare to cast turn 1 Clouds or Meddling Mages with a Mox.  Really, it isn't.  If you don't want to run CotV and would rather have a 1 drop, stick with the Flying Men and swap Javlineers with Clouds.  Although, I guess our version of the deck is running 2-3 maindeck Old Men of the Sea to deal with random Welders.  I think you should be good with just the STP's though.

Another major differense is Stifle Vs CoW.  Our deck takes a more controlling route to victory with CotV + CoW.  Stifle is a good opening turn play on Fetch, but isn't your deck trying to drop 1cc critters turn 1?  Chalice and Crucible are far better top decks and game locking board controlling components.

I have also run Arcane Labs in the board for a few TPS heavy metagames but IMHO they are too narrow and not even necessary.  Lets face it, if TPS gets the Nuts you lose.  If they don't, Mages, Chalices and Null Rods are more then enough to shut that deck down.  It is funny though to have a Null Rod, Chalice for 0, and 1, an Arcane Lab and a Meddling Mage all on the board at once against a TPS player.  Then to top it off Daze there one answer left haha.

Anyways, these are just my own opinions of U/W Fish.  They might suck, you might find something helpful... I really don't know.

I'd just like to add that I playtested this deck to very strong results against Grim Long (is it even as good as TPS?) as well if you were wondering about that match up.

OFM 2K5 has posted great results in Canada as well as the Star City P9 in Syracuse.  This is essentially U/W Fish (With Null Rods) Not using Vials, Jittes or Rootwater Thiefs...  Our Metagame Primarily consists of skilled players using decks such as TPS, Gifts, and U/W Landstill.

1st place Mox Sapphire - 50 person tournament (Played By Myself)
1st Place Bazaar of Baghdad - 35 person tournament (Played By Dan Rosu) I Finished 3-1-1 getting 9th
3rd Place as well as 4 of top 8 decks in 50 person tournament (Played By Myself, Joe Vinen, Steve Brown, Dan Rosu)
3rd Place/5th Place at Star City P9 Syracuse (Played By Nick Rosu and Myself)
A few other top 8's around here as well... but anyways...

I'm not trying to discredit the fact that certain cards the deck is not running are bad (cept maybe the Thiefs).  But that the deck has no trouble winning lots without certain cards which seem to be percieved as the optimal cards to be running.

Cloud of Faeries work because they allow you to easily drop a creature plus Mage, Rod or Standstill on turn 2 then follow that play with a Ninjitsu or Null Rod/Seal of Cleansing or whatever the following turn.  Vialing out creatures is non-essential.  I'd rather be dropping turn 1 or 2 Null Rods and getting auto wins with that combination along with the land destrutction/CoW certain games. 

It is also important to not run 1cc drops in this version since one of the main game plans is to side in Chalices and set them to 1. 

Although I've playtested Jittes, our particular version doesn't run enough creatures.  What happens is if a Cloud or Mage gets countered or killed right away you can't make any use out of the card until you get another creature which may or may not stay in play.  If you are running a more creature heavy deck then I can fully understand their use.  Such cards make a lot more sense in the Worse then Fish or Madness decks.  I'm not ready to add Fyying Men or Javelineers to the deck to make better use of Jittes and completly taking away a lot of Chalices usefulness.  Null Rod is still the best of all these cards.

I would recommend adding multiple copies of Extract to the sideboard.  I know it's being said not to be that effective, but I still think they are worth trying out.  What happens when you first turn Extract the Gifts deck Colossus.  They say they will win with Tendrils then since it's a more effective kill then Tinker/Colossus??  Well, I only ever lose to Tinker and I'd say this deck annhiliates TPS.  How do they go the Tendrils route when they are using their tutors to try and get rid of multiple Chalices, Null Rods and Meddling Mages? 

I don't know why you'd want to run Rootwater Thief.  It's terrible.  Sure you can remove cards now and then, but it's way too slow and the cards you have a chance removing may prove insignificant. 

Cloud of Faeries is one of the most important creatures in any Fish deck, not running it is a  huge mistake.  Most good players that play against the deck realise that this is best card to counter to stop fishes momento.

Null Rod's are STILL the bomb.  Play them against Vials.  Slow the hell out of your opponents while you drop other crap like Meddling Mages and Chalices and they have to try and play around Dazes using their tutors for answers instead of bombs.

Jitte isn't that good in this deck unless you are running a lot more creatures.  Your beaters still have small bodies and get removed before the Jitte gets active, and you may never use it's advantage.  Meanwhile you could have dropped a Null Rod and shut off all opposing mana.

If you have no Bazaar, I would run Zombie Infestation as another discard outlet.  Maybe add a Verdant or Slagwurm to the deck.  You can also use Unmask for disruption.  Although, If you do add Infestations you should be able to flashback Therapy with zombie tokens.

3sphere is coming out turn one with Workshop and occasionaly accompanied with a mox or crypt/lotus/sol ring/mana vault?  Meaning Workshop player has 4-5 mana on turn 2 and is also going to have a 2nd threat in hand such as Jugg/CoW/Smokestack which will not be countered.

If 3sphere resolves and they have that 2nd threat the best an opposing deck can do is drop 1 land 3 turns in a row and maybe on turn 3 cast a Cunning Wish or creature/artifact removal.  If a land is a non basic, chances are Workshop/3sphere player has a Waste/Strip for it and makes it pretty much an unrecoverable situation.

With SoR the opposing player can still drop land and pay for Moxes.  They can also drop lands and have that 1 mana open for FoW.  You can't FoW under 3sphere period.

In general I believe that there is a much higher level of skill in sanctioned tournaments.  Most Vintage players that go out of their way to buy power cards are hard-core into the format.  These players generally visit web sites such as these to get the latest tech or new deck idea.  If given the choice, I'm sure most of these players would prefer all their tournaments to be sanctioned.

However, in a proxied metagame you get a lot of Type 2 or new players in general (Hi, this is my first type 1 tourney) playing with really obscure or bastardized versions of tier one decks.  Such as using 5 proxies for power, but still lacking dual lands, mana drains, etc.  Plus in a lot of cases not knowing how to actually play the deck properly.

In areas where there is a real consistant hard-core showing of Vintage players I can see sanctioned tournaments doing better.  But in areas where a lot of players don't take T1 seriously, there can be a nice boost in attendance by allowing them.

I'm not really sure atm which of the two is better.  I like the idea of just casting the Seasinger out asap, then if your opponent counters it... whatever.  If it resolves, they have to deal with it before they drop their threat.  

I guess you could say it's a bit more proactive then the Drake which will sit in your hand most of the game.  A lot of times when you want to drop the Gilded Drake to steal say a Tog or Exalted Angel your opponent will likely have some kind of counter back up to deal with it.  Seasinger can be better in this situation cause chances are you resolved it earlier in the game when it didn't appear as a threat.

You can always screw your opponent over by taking smaller creatures earlier in the game to add tempo to your self, then if he casts bigger threats swap them up.

I'm sure there games where you wanted to use Gilded Drake to just get rid of something annoying but chose not to, and to save it for a more serious threat.

Gilded Drake is good, where just trying to playtest other options.  Seasinger may prove to be too fragile.  But whatever, it's nice to be different.

There's nothing wrong with having insane prize support for a tournament.  The problem is when they become too frequent.

Seven of us drove 7 hours down from Canada and had a blast at the MDC3 in Endicott.  What inspired us to go was the insane prize support.

We would love to get to all these tournaments in the US with this kind of prize support.  The problem is you can't go to them all.  You need time to save money up to make the trip, to orginize and just to have a bit of a break from it.   It can be a very tiring experience.

There are 2 SCG tournaments coming up very soon.  We definately can't make the trip out to Richmand.  It's just way too soon and we have no money.   We are on the other hand considering atm going to Chicago.  It's about a 9 hour trip for us.  It will just be a matter of whether or not enough people have enough money and are able to take a day off work to attend this thing.

The MDC3 suffered from a few factors...  

The time of year, it's not summer anymore, not everyone can make a trip or get the time off work to attend.   Also, when you start holding too many of these big tournaments too close to each other it forces the players to pick a tournament to attend.    

I think the actual posting of the upcoming SCG's tournaments probably even hurt the MDC3 attendence.   People look at the forums and see there is a tournament with insane prizes closer to them coming up so they elect to just skip out on the one that is further away so they can save some money and time to attend the closer event.

Insane prizes are great, just don't expect to get too many people traveling great distances to attend more then 1 every 3-4 months.

Grats Patron for taking OFM to your second strong finish in a row.  I'm glad you also decided to test out some of the previous sideboard suggestions as well.  

I got the chance to watch a lot of Patron's round 4 match win against  Jim DiMarsico.   Here is a little bit of what I can remember from the final game of the match:

Jim had an early Jugg out while Patron was able to resolve a turn 1 Seasinger with Lotus.  

(I believe this prevented Jim from playing an Island early in the game.)  

Jim eventually had 2 Juggs out swinging as Patron was able to block and kill a Jugg with a Factory.  Patron then dropped another Factory and a 2nd Seasinger.  

Jim then had to swing his 2nd Jugg into Patrons 2nd Factory.

(Patron could have chump blocked with a Seasinger then copied Jim's Jugg on his turn if he wanted to, but chose to save the spell incase a bigger threat came out.)  

Patron then dropped out a Grim Lavamancer.  

Jim was then able to resolve a Tinker grabbing Triskelion killing all 3 of Patrons threats.  

Patron then attempted to cast Copy Artifact on Jim's Trike which met REB.

Patron then resolved an Old Man of the Sea and preceeded to beat Jim down for the win.

This was a fun game to watch as we got to see some of the potential in these new sideboard choices currently being tested out.  We like the idea of siding Old Men out for Seasingers in the matchups vs 4cc, GAT and decks utilizing Tinker/Colossus.

Currently in the board:

3 REB
3 Rack and Ruin
2 Fire/Ice
2 BEB
3 Seasinger
2 Copy Artifact

Your build looks solid.  I have some suggestions, feel free to ignore, but I have done well with this deck at multiple tournys and have playtested it fairly extensively.  These are just my own personal preferences...

I would cut 1 Night's Whisper like was suggested.  I started with 4 and found the damage added up to fast and 3 is perfect.

I would go up to 3 Cunning Wish.  This deck can out control other control decks and you usually want to see at least 1 Cunning Wish every game.  I originally started with 2, but would just never see them and upped to 3 which is what I feel comfortable with atm.

Fastbond is preference only.  I can play 10 matches in a row and not use it once, but it will occasionaly win you a game you should have lost.  I don't think it's consistant enough myself.  

I'd cut 1 Mana Drain.  You usually only ever use these after you have board position and can safely sit back with mana open to cantrip at the eot.  Normally you are tapping out on your early turns casting Dryad and Night's Whisper.  You normally want to see a FoW and Daze in your opening hand then draw into a Mana Drain.

I think running a Mana Crypt in this deck is too risky.  You are already taking damage from Night's Whisper and have no way to get rid of the Crypt in a long game.  This deck seems to play more Control/Aggro then combo.  You can combo out with Tog but usually you will be disrupted enough with Duress, Null Rods, Wastelands etc, making most games last quite a few turns.  Running all the Moxen is a must.

Vampiric Tutor is better in the maindeck then sideboard.  I started with it in the side, but you don't really have maindeck answers you can tutor for after a Cunning Wish.  Basically, you will only Wish for this to grab a creature, where as running it in the maindeck you'll more often use VT or Mystical to get an Ancestral Recall or Yawgmoth's Will when needed and to grab your sideboard cards after boarding.

I would also recommend adding a Regrowth to your maindeck.  I wasn't playing with it at first, but man is it awesome.  The more times you can replay Ancestral or Time Walk the better.

You may consider running a couple Serum Visons.  Really smoothes the mana base and good for controlling your draws better.  4 Brainstorms + a couple Serum Visions are really great for letting you keep 1 land hands.

I would suggest adding 1 Strip Mine to deal with Maze of Ith.  Your opponent can have 3 Mazes out on you and you can still win with just 1 creature in play as long as you're running at least 1 Strip.  It may seem random but you have Regrowth and Will to replay them.  They're not bad to randomly get against Workshop either.

Your sideboard looks good although I'd main the VT, cut the Mis D or main deck it and add at least 1 Oxidize to your sideboard.  I agree with you about Snuff Out... It is simply amazing in just soo many situations.  You only need 3 mana to Cunning Wish and kill Goblin Welder during your upkeep.

My biggest concern with GAT atm is wtf do we do against Storm combo?

I think its best use is probably in some kind of janky flashback deck where you can get use out of all the cards including the 2 discarded.

Although the flashback cards other then Deep Analysis might not be competitive enough for T1 play.  Might work well with Roar of the Worm, Call of the Herd, Chatter of the Squirrel, Recoup, Firebolt, Reckless Charge, Wonder, Anger, Cabal Therapy...

Well, maybe you could get some knew version of Quiet Roar or Madness out of this.  At least GU essentially would give you all 4 cards to play around with in a deck like this.  You would also add powerful cards to the deck such as Ancestral, Time Walk, Regrowth, Demonic Tutor, Yawgmoth's Will... and the last 4 can all be flashed back using Recoup.

Yes, a new idea for a potential tier 5 deck.  

Congrats to patronvoidmage for placing 3rd in the Ontario Vintage Championship 2 using Old Man of the Sea tech.  The decklist he used was provided by Balzary and is more true to Fish then the one posted here originally.

Top 8 at this event included 3 Fish decks.

After I was knocked out of a top 8 spot in round 6 I got some time to watch patronvoidmage play his top 8 and top 4 matches.

Top 8, Game 1 Vs Fish.  In this game his opponent was able to capitalize on an early Grim Lavamancer drop even after patron had 2 fliers and Curiosity on a Cloud of Faeries.  His opponent even had 2 dead Null Rod draws in his hand.  The 2 fliers were easily plucked away as patronvoidmage couldn't draw into any answers, just Standstills.  There was ample time in this game to find an Old Man of the Sea or a Fire/Ice to answer, but only running 2 and 1 copy of each wasn't enough for this match.

I find this to be rather typical of the mirror.  Whoever resolves the first Grim Lavamancer will have a huge advantage.  Well not so, if you run Old Man of the Sea and multiple copies of Fire/Ice in your deck.  I hope in the future it's whoever resolves the first Old Man of the Sea.  

In the deciding game 3 patronvoidmage was able to resolve a turn 2 CoW and had a Factory and Wasteland to go with it.

Top 4 Game 3 Vs Shockwaves CoW Control.  patronvoidmage had an early Grim Lavamancer and Mishra's Factory, but Shockwave soon followed that up with a CotV set to 1 crippling the 2 Curiosities in patron's hand.  The game was close and both players eventually had CoW on the board but Shockwave was able to Mana Drain out a Darksteel Colossus for the win.  

Not sure if Sigil of Sleep was sided in here or not, but would have been pretty useless with a Chalice for 1 out anyways.

Deck Changes?

Curiosity:  I'm still under the belief that they are not needed and would rather run more Old Men and Fire/Ice maindeck.  I realise that Curiosity is the decks draw engine but so is Standstill.  Standstill provides enough card draw facing against Workshop, 4cc or Combo by itself.  If you are facing against other Fish, Fish Varients and Landstill it might suck, but so does Curiosity in these match ups.

Spiketail Hatchling Vs Flying Men:  Spiketail Hatchling provides more synergy with CoW.  I do still prefer the Flying Men against Stax tho.  

Mana Sources:  We still think running a Black Lotus and Mox Ruby is more beneficial then a hinderence with Null Rod.  Especially since our build is running 3x CoW and 3x Old Man of the Sea.  These accelerants provide more turn 1 Spiketails or Cloud of Faerie combos.  Hard casting Daze turn 1 with no tempo loss is much more frequent as well.

Sideboard Ideas...

It seems as though almost every deck is using Tinker/Darksteel Colossus now.  Most also run 3-4 copies of CoW.  You can bet that if your opponent is running Colossus he is going to be able to resolve it in at least 1 game of a match.  Rack and Ruin, Maze of Ith and Sigil of Sleep are all great sideboard options, but none deal with Colossus effectively enough.  Rack and Ruin doesn't destroy it, Maze gets Wasted, and your creature with Sigil gets burned.  Energy Flux is another great option, but even then there is no guarantee your opponent can't pay the upkeep.

What card can deal with both CoW and Colossus?  Some alternate ideas we have other then the ones mentioned above include...

1.  Copy Artifact:  You may run your own CoW but having a couple extra copies in your deck to guarantee your opponent doesn't get the jump on you can't hurt.  But mainly it can copy Darksteel Colossus giving yourself your very own indestructable fatty.  It is also a very nice turn 2 answer to early artifact fat that slips out.  It may not seem like a definative answer, but it should buy you the time you need.

2.  Seasinger:  This is another interesting idea that could have some merit.  Almost all decks play with Islands in them and this can steal any creature as long as they control one.  The downside is that it is relatively slow 3cc and has a not soo beefy 1 toughness.

After more playtesting we have decided that a 3rd CoW is definately needed in the maindeck.  We're likely going to replace the lone Stifle with it since it is too random.  

Spiketail Hatchling's are also being considered over Flying Men currently.  They do look good with CoW, it's just more of a debate whether that extra ability is critical compaired to the painlessness of a 1cc evasion drop.

We're not sure if Gorilla Shamans are a good choice here.  They are a 1 drop, but every deck can block and kill them easily forcing them to usually become strictly a utility creature.  They may be good against Goblin Welder, but the deck is already really strong with Grim Lavamancer, Old Man of the Sea plus Fire/Ice for keeping that threat at bay.  Generally we find Null Rod, Wasteland and Rack and Ruin is strong enough against Workshop/Artifact decks which we feel this deck has a very good game against after sideboarding.

Thanks people for your input/suggestions, it is much appreciated.  

I understand the skeptism of not running Curiosity in this deck.  The deck originally ran Curiosity but was removed in favor of the more powerful Crucible of Worlds.  This deck isn't exactly Fish, it is designed to gain more tempo advantage with Old Man of the Sea by stealing creatures and CoW by destroying land as well.  It also has a more explosive start with Flying Men.

It may seem as tho the deck shouldn't be able to survive with out the extra draw engine, but infact I have found through playtesting that the advantage CoW can give you is much more beneficial in this deck.

In order for Curiosity to be effective, you first have to resolve it on a creature, have that creature survive and be unblocked for 2 attacks to finally accumulate 1 card advantage.  CoW can generate a much more degenerate effect on the turn it resolves.

CoW can allow you to generate a permanent Mishra's Factory blocker against cards that normally you wouldn't have a main deck answer for such as Quirion Dryad, Sundering Titan, Archbound Ravager, etc.  Meanwhile you can finish the game off with your Flying Men and Grim Lavamancer activations.

Although you may on average draw a few extra cards with Curiosity, I think the addition of Old Man of the Sea, CoW along with Blood Moon in the side will give this version a refreshing chance to resolve mini bombs.

Standstill is by far a superior card drawing engine then either Curiosity or Brainstorm in THIS deck.  When played correctly it always nets you 3 new cards.  It can even be played on turn 1 (Lotus, 2 mox) or 2 a greater number of times since you never don't have a turn 1 threat.  Typically, you cast turn 1 Flying Men or Grim Lavamancer with Daze back up or FoW, then follow that with Standstill on turn 2 which is a very common play.  Quite often certain decks will attempt to break this lock right away and you will normally have a FoW plus Daze to use immediatly with a typically good hand.




Brainstorm is absolutely terrible in a redundant deck like this.  Even with fetch lands it is still only a cantrip.  In this deck you want to be dropping a Flying Men or Grim Lavamancer out on turn 1, then a Null Rod or Standstill turn 2.  Brainstorm has no effect on your opponents play, where Standstill can give you a huge boost in tempo or card advantage immediately.