Maybe it was just my pairings, but I faced Dredge in 3 of the 4 rounds.  Dredge won with the only 4-0, and had multiple 3-1's.  Word to the wise...don't start skimping on that Dredge hate just yet.

A few of us still play online, and I was following the coverage.  Maybe next year I'll see if I can round up several of us to head up.  Would be a blast!

I'm not sure if City of Brass is something Wizards wouldn't print anymore, but that's the comparison card I had in mind when thinking about this one.  I'm pretty sure you just about always run City over this in a multi-color control deck, but for some decks it's a close call and this is more interesting/skill-testing (imo).  I actually like your version, but not quite as much and I'm still not sure the power-level of the original is too high.

Border Crossing
Land
When Border Crossing comes into play, an opponent chooses a color.
T: Add one mana of any color except the chosen color to your mana pool.


Obviously better the more colors you play.  On the plus side, if your opponent chooses poorly, this is a 4-color dual with no drawback.  On the other hand, if you're hurting for a color and your opponent knows it, this will be frustrating by giving you everything except what you need.

Feels really useful in the right places, but by no means busted - and I'm happy with the simplicity of it.  Interested in folk's thoughts.

Ah, the old:

4x Workshop
4x Sands of Time
4x Eon Hub
4x Orb of Dreams
4x Black Vise
...

I'd say a reasonable Vintage deck price ceiling would be maybe 15x the prize value for winning a Vintage daily event online.

I'll echo that this project absolutely begs to be a book.  Of course, I appreciate that Steve and Eternal Central can't commit to such an endeavor without knowing whether it will be worth it.

Let me suggest a modern-day solution:  www.kickstarter.com

I'm sure there is someone at EC familiar with kickstarter, and that would be a win/win....more revenue for them (as folks like me aren't willing to invest in early chapters without knowing the entire work will eventually materialize) and a big win for interested Vintage fans.  Lots of cool things you could do too with bonus levels.

Steve - you should see if EC is willing to kickstart the book version.  I for one would gladly be a backer.

Good listen.  For my money, Guttersnipe has more promise than Electromancer.  I thought the comparison to Kiln Fiend was rather narrow.  Would have enjoyed a conversation on how much mana it is worth to have your storm kill at the beginning of the chain vs the end.

There are still a number of ways to get around the fact that your creatures can attack.  

Exhibit A:

Hex Parasite
Nearheath Stalker
Glare of Subdual
Forbidden Orchard
Serra's Sanctum
Freyalise Supplicant
Gaea's Cradle
Crackdown


Exhibit B:

Gnarled Effigy
Geralf's Mindcrusher
Mishra's Workshop
Sisay's Ring
Searing Touch
Tolarian Academy
Ensnaring Bridge
Phyrexian Altar


Though come to think of it, most of them come down to a pretty small number of lands that enable you to play a lot of creatures and have them not attack, so it would open things up quite a bit.  I think there is plenty of space for creativity though even with the current constraints.

Nice Delha!

On Deck 3, you can be particularly cruel to your goldfish opponent by turning the Vine Trellis back into a wall after hitting it with the Whistle (though I can't figure out how to force you to need to do this).  That leaves them their choice...tap the Trellis for mana causing it to die from Whistle at EOT and taking the Creature Bond damage...or attacking you causing you to gain a life.  Enough turns of that and you can kill them with one hit from a Sneak Attack'ed Souldrinker.

Nicely done Nef!

Well shucks...wasn't aware of that errata.  Thanks for the head's up fellas.

The idea is to come up with a deck that is tough to figure out how it wins.  Your challenge is to figure out how the decks win, or to come up with an Obfuscated Deck of your own!

Obfuscated Deck Challenge:
==========================
- No minimum/maximum deck size
- Vintage card set and B/R list, sideboard allowed with a maximum of 15 cards
- Players begin with their entire deck in hand and there is no maximum hand size
- Players do not lose the game as a result of not being able to draw a card
- Goldfish opponent plays perfect magic and is trying to thwart you - they make all choices accordingly
- Goldfish opponent begins with 20 life, and 0 cards in hand, graveyard, and library
 
I've included several decks below for your enjoyment.  It's often pretty easy to spot the gist of the idea, but the devil is in the details, so don't post a solution unless you've worked it out.  Also, these things are tough (for me anyway) to put together and I hope I haven't made too many mistakes.


A couple warm-up exercises:

Deck 1
============
1 Show and Tell
1 Isochron Scepter
1 Forbidden Crypt
1 Sky Diamond
1 Psychic Purge
1 City of Traitors
1 Stifle
 

Deck 2
=============
1 Inexorable Tide
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Tanglebloom
1 Vesuva
1 Spell Crumple
1 Sapphire Medallion
1 Lotus Petal
1 Helix Pinnacle
1 Forsaken City  
1 Marrow Shards
 

I think we're warmed up...lets start cooking...


Deck 3:
=============
2 Relearn
1 Island
1 Souldrinker
1 Mistform Mask
1 Upwelling
1 Lush Growth
1 Donate
1 Orim's Prayer
1 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Sneak Attack
1 Skull of Orm
1 Sol Ring
1 Vine Trellis
1 Mirari
1 Rolling Stones
1 Arcum's Whistle
1 Creature Bond
1 Revive


Deck 4:
==============
4 Vassal's Duty
1 Plateau
4 Leyline of Singularity
1 Hornet Sting
3 Angel's Grace
4 Aether Flash
1 Safe Haven
1 Petrified Field
1 Guardian Zendikon
1 Hollistic Wisdom
1 Minamo Scrollkeeper
1 Tidal Bore
1 Tropical Island
1 Mirror Universe
1 Mind Stone
 

The below one I made for the original Obfuscated Deck Challenge, but no longer works now that the wishes can't get exiled cards.  If you imagine the wishes worked like they used to though, its a nice challenging one.
 
Bonus Deck
===============
4 Burning Wish
4 Golden Wish
1 Sunglasses of Urza
1 Reiterate
1 Blasting Station
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Phyrexian Grimoire
1 Irrigation Ditch
1 Decimate
1 Candelabra of Tawnos
1 Reconnaissance
1 Hidden Path
1 Spiny Starfish
1 Serra's Sanctum


Ok folks, that's all I got (no...brainpower....left....).   Have fun w/ them, and please post your own Obfuscated Deck for us to work out if you want to try your hand at creating one!

Finally getting around to posting mine.  It's not one of the high-powered ones...most cards around the Nezumi Graverobber and up power-level are absent.  I have a couple principles for my stack:

- No errata (I want it to be easy to sit down with anyone and play wiithout heavy house rules for specific cards...so no Quanar, Anger, etc. in my stack - no foreign cards either)
- No tutors (Most often play multiplayer and tutors make the games take much, much longer with folks having to sit around quite a bit)
- As far as how my stack plays...I don't use the alternate casting cost rule or anything clunky.  The rule is simple:  you play with all the normal rules of magic except that you get infinite colored Type 4 mana in your mana pool at all times and once per turn you can use that mana to cast a spell.  Implications:  If I tap my Karakas to Path to Exile a guy, that doesn't count towards my "1 spell per turn" because I didn't use my Type 4 mana for it...ditto for Pacts, etc.  Another implication:  I can activate abilities with my Type 4 mana and if those abilities in turn generate mana, that mana can be used to cast a spell and also doesn't count towards my "1 spell per turn" so that's why you'll see a card like Skyshroud Elf in the stack.

That said, here's the 280-card list:

Instants
=====
Absorb
Agonizing Demise
Annihilate
Bant Charm
Beast Attack
Captain's Maneuver
Cauldron Dance
Commandeer
Controvert
Cremate
Cryptic Command
Decree of Silence
Desertion
Discombobulate
Dismal Failure
Dismantling Blow
Dismiss
Dominate
Dromar's Charm
Ember Shot
Esper Charm
Exile
Fact or Fiction
Fervent Denial
Festival of the Guildpact
Force of Will
Gather Specimens
Grab the Reins
Grim Harvest
Hindering Light
Into the Roil
Jace's Ingenuity
Krosan Grip
Memory Plunder
Mindbreak Trap
Molder
Momentous Fall
Mystic Melting
Mystic Snake
Nemesis Trap
Opportunity
Overwhelming Intellect
Pact of Negation
Path to Exile
Prophetic Bolt
Pulse of the Fields
Pulse of the Grid
Punish Ignorance
Ray of Distortion
Reflect Damage
Relic Crush
Repeal
Resounding Roar
Resounding Silence
Resounding Thunder
Resounding Wave
Reverse Damage
Reviving Vapors
Riddle of Lightning
Searing Wind
Second Thoughts
Seed Spark
Shattering Pulse
Shining Shoal
Slaughter Pact
Soul Manipulation
Spelljack
Spinal Embrace
Spite/Malice
Slice in Twain
Starstorm
Sudden Death
Swift Silence
Tainted Pact
Thirst for Knowledge
Time Stop
Undermine
Unmake
Urza's Rage
Whispers of the Muse
Wild Ricochet
Word of Seizing

Creatures
======
Aeon Chronicler
Akroma, Angel of Wrath
Ana Battlemage
Angel of Despair
Angel of Salvation
Arashi, the Sky Asunder
Arcanis
Archon of Justice
Artizan of Kozilek
Azorius Guildmage
Bane of the Living
Benalish Commander
Blood Celebrant
Body Double
Bogarden Hellkite
Bosh, Iron Golem
Butcher of Malakir
Chancellor of the Spires
Consecrated Sphinx
Creakwood Ghoul
Crowd Favorite
Darksteel Colossus
Deathless Angel
Deepfire Elemental
Desolation Giant
Dimir Doppleganger
Djinn of Wishes
Dragon Broodmother
Dragon Whelp
Draining Whelk
Dread Cacodemon
Duplicant
Eight and a Half Tails
Enigma Sphinx
Etched Monstrosity
Etched Oracle
Firemane Angel
Fleshformer
Flowstone Overseer
Furnace Dragon
Gaea's Revenge
Garza Zol, Plague Queen
Genesis
Glory
Grixis Sojourners
Grave Titan
Hoard-Smelter Dragon
Havoc Demon
Hypnox
Ink Eyes, Servant of Oni
Iona, Shield of Emeria
Jiwari, the Earth Aflame
Kaervek the Merciless
Kamahl, Pit Fighter
Karn, Silver Golem
Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund
Kederekt Leviathan
Keiga, the Tide Star
Kokoshu, the Evening Star
Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
Lighthouse Chronologist
Magister Sphinx
Mist Dragon
Mistmeadow Witch
Morphling
Myojin of Cleansing Fire
Myojin of Infinite Rage
Myojin of Life's Web
Myojin of Seeing Winds
Nantuko Vigilante
Nicol Bolas
Niv-Mizzet the Firemind
Pelakka Wurm
Pentavus
Penumbra Wurm
Phyrexian Gargantua
Phyrexian Ingestor
Pride of the Clouds
Progenitus
Pupeteer Clique
Platinum Emperion
Quicksilver Dragon
Rainbow Efreet
Razia, Boros Archangel
Reiver Demon
Reya Dawnbringer
Root Elemental
Scavenging Ooze
Scion of Darkness
Scourge of Kher Ridges
Sedris, the Traitor King
Sengir Nasferatu
Sheoldred, Whispering One
Siege-Gand Commander
Skyshroud Elf
Smokespew Invoker
Spearbreaker Behemoth
Sphinx of Lost Truths
Sphinx of the Steel Wind
Sphinx of Uthuun
Spirit of the Night
Stalking Vengeance
Teferi
Terastodon
Thicket Elemental
Thornling
Thraximundar
Tidespout Tyrant
Transcendant Master
Triskelevius
Uktabi Kong
Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
Vampiric Dragon
Vesuvan Shapeshifter
Willbender
Withered Wretch
Woodfall Primus
Wurmcoil Engine

Sorceries
======
Akroma's Vengence
All is Dust
Austere Command
Beacon of Immortality
Catastrophe
Conqueror's Pledge
Consuming Vapors
Crime/Punishment
Cruel Ultimatum
Crush of Wurms
Decree of Pain
Din of the Fireherd
Evangelize
Feudkiller's Verdict
Phyrexian Rebirth
Praetor's Counsel
Final Judgment
Forced March
Granny's Payback
Heroes Remembered
Jokulhaups
Kiss of the Amesha
Mind Spring
Obliterate
Plague Wind
Planar Cleansing
Promise of Power
Recurring Insight
Rite of Replication
Rout
Sorin's Vengeance
Time Stretch
Twisted Justice
Vengeful Rebirth
Violent Ultimatum
Void
Volley of Boulders

Enchantments
=========
Baneful Omen
Cast Through Time
Confiscate
Debtor's Knell
Fevered Convulsions
Holistic Wisdom
Maelstrom Nexus
Marshall's Anthem
Necrogenesis
Pernicious Deed
Planeswalker's Scorn
Psychic Posession
Take Posession
Thought Reflection

Artifacts
=====
Akroma's Memorial
Alladin's Ring
Altar of Shadows
Echo Chamber
Legacy Weapon
Mind's Eye
Mirari
Muse Vessel
Nihil Spellbomb
Obelisk of Alara
Oblivion Stone
Shield of the Ages
Soul Conduit
Tatsumatsu, Dragon Fang
Temporal Aperture
Tower of Eons
Tower of Fortunes
Vedalken Orrery

Planeswalkers
=========
Karn Liberated
Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
Sorin Markhov

Lands
====
Diamond Valley
Karakas
Kor Haven
Maze of Ith
Miren, the Moaning Well
Prahav, City of Spires
Urza's Factory
Winding Canyons

Furnace Dragon's feelings are hurt...

The red one strikes me as overpowered when used as a finisher.

In general, I like the idea of these.  I do worry a little bit about whether the emblem execution given that it seems to be a last resort for functionality that can't be done elsewhere.  Maybe its possible to do something along the lines of "If Grasp of Negation is in your graveyard, spells and abilites you control cannot counter spells".

Maybe a lotus petal for critters versus a mox?

Lotus Fruit
Artifact
 
 , Sacrifice Lotus Fruit: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. Spend this mana only to cast creature spells.


Lets you get your hate bears out turn 1, but probably not as broken in standard.

Not as fun a fight as the 50 midgets vs a lion, but I voted Vader.

Blast from the past.  Here's an old thread on some of the older 3CB tournies on tmd:

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=14457.0

The cost is  , not  .  Not sure if that was a typo on your part, or whether you thought the cmc was 3.

Ack - how did I forget that part?  Updated.

Vulcanologist
Creature - Goblin Shaman
 
At the end of each phase, Vucanologist deals damage to each opponent equal to the mana in that opponent's mana pool.
2/2


A red attempt at remembering mana burn...and maybe a silly way for someone to break out their Power Surges or something...


Edits:
- Made it a goblin

Shortut
 
Instant
Split Second
End the phase.  (Lots of reminder text)


Time stop worked out pretty well, but the reminder text on this thing might need to be so atrocious as to make it unworkable.  Thoughts?


Edits: 
- Added Split Second.


Standard disclaimer:  Apologies if you've designed this card or something similar.  No, I don't regularly review each and every card idea posted here and in other forums.

Maybe allowing the caster to chose lands would make it something different versus a bad Thoughtsieze (also makes it closer to a reverse Blackmail).  I don't think you need to worry too much about it being easy to mana screw someone, since to guarantee a land discard, you have to chose 3 lands from their hand meaning they're not really mana-light to begin with.

If I really wanted to continue, I'd probably look at something like:

Leyline of Abundance
Enchant World
1G
If Leyline of Abundance is in your sideboard, you may begin the game with it on the battlefield.
Whenever a player would draw a card, they may instead choose land or nonland and exile cards from the top of their library until they exile a card of the chosen kind. They put that card into their hand.


Seems pretty fair for a symmetric Abundance and accomplishes much of what I'm after (though this one has the potential for abuse in threshold or w/ the delve mechanic or something by playing 4 in your SB and putting them all into play (which, being an enchant world, allows you to start the game with leylines in your graveyard).

I'm not sure that more subtle answers wouldn't be better and more interesting.  Things like the landcycling cards are a good start for helping gain you mana early if you're tight, but being big monsters later if you have extra lands around to cast them...the challenge there being how to make them better tools against screw given that they all still take 2 mana to use.

I'll put some more thought in - but thanks everyone for the comments.  This thread has certainly gotten me thinking.

As I thought - your definition seems to be something along the lines of mana screw = not getting enough mana to play your spells.  Mine though is mana screw = drawing a disproportionally low number of lands. 

An example: If my opponent has 10 lands in his 40 card draft deck, he can expect to draw 3 lands from his first 12 cards.  If turn 4 rolls around and he misses his 4th land drop and has a stack of 4-drops in his hand, I don't consider him to be suffering from mana screw, his deck is giving him the exact number of lands it should.   From what I infer, you would call him a victim of mana screw.

It may be semantics, but what I'm after is attempting to lessen the impact of mana screw (by my definition) -- if there is a clean way to do this while not lessening the impact of poor deck construction, all the better...a good design challenge that.

I still think we must have different definitions of mana screw.  My definition doesn't allow for any sort of "mistake" to result in mana screw (short of some sort of weird shuffling method that actively harms your card distribution).

Not quite Ancestral, but I see what you mean...another card that, though unlikely to be broken in half in other formats, contributes to further Vintage/Legacy degeneracy.  In any case, as per jro's initial point, I'll try to work on fixes that are more subtle (even if they are also likely to be less effective).

I'm guessing that you're referring to the second version of Mana Well, as the Arcane Denial comment makes no sense with the first version (not that it makes much sense with the second as you're still giving your opponent 2 free business spells...it does apply to both players).   Actually, I'm pretty much at a total loss as to what you mean by this card making Arcane Denail busted...can you explain further?

I mentioned in the post that the version was probably busted - thanks for reiterating.  The storm factor is real, and needs to be addressed - I would hate to use Oath of Happy's idea of making it self-restricting though, as that makes an increasingly complex idea require even more custom text.

Couldn't disagree more.  First off though, to make sure we're on the same page, I define mana screw to be drawing a disproportionally low number of lands compared to the number in your deck...mana flood as drawing a disproportionally high number of lands.  A dumbass opponent rocking 10 lands in their draft deck isn't getting mana screwed when they can't play their 3-drop on turn 3 (not in my book). 

The issue is that there is a high degree of variability in card distribution while at the same time there is a tight sweet-spot for the mix of lands and spells.

Secondly, getting rid of mana screw/flood doesn't mean that you'll be able to ignore building a proper deck that takes curve into account and how you'll maximize each turn.  Plenty of opportunity to both out-build and out-play your opponent should still exist (mcuh as it does in the WoW card game for instance, where win or lose every game is still a game and both folks get to play).