Mana Well

[thorme]

Mana Well

Legendary Artifact

If <this> is in your sideboard, you may play it as though it were in your hand.
Cards in each player's hand have "0:  Exile this card.  Reveal the top card of your library and exile it until you reveal a basic land card.  Put that card into your hand.  Activate this ability only any time you could play a sorcery."


Attempting to deal with our age-old nemesis, mana screw (for both players, though if they're not running many basics, it might help only you).  I started with the old-school cantrip-during-next-turn deal instead of the play-from-sideboard ability, but even as a 4-of, you won't start with this in your opening hand often enough to have it truly help with mana-screw.  Now it still suffers from a couple problems:

- It gives Affinity a free artifact at the low cost of 1 sideboard slot.  Maybe I could make it a colorless enchantment or something, but seems a bit forced.  (this is why I made it legendary by the way...multiples might even still be an issue w/ things like free disciple of the vault triggers, but not sure that is worth the extra SB slots)
- Refering to the sideboard is ugly - even the wishes refer to cards "outside the game".  If I replace "sideboard" with "outside the game" though, it could be weird in casual games.  That change would also let you play it if it has been exiled, though I'm not sure if that is a problem.
- Could cause confusion with folks acidentally shuffling it into their deck and forgetting to put it back into their sideboard.  If you're playing this card, you're likely to be aware and careful, but still could be an issue.
- Some potential exists for an extremely land-light deck running this in the SB to get just enough lands and then have the rest of the deck be gas.  I think the exiling of the revealed cards should be enough of a drawback for this strategy, but I'm not positive.


Standard disclaimer:  Apologies if you've designed this card or something similar.  No, I don't regularly review each and every card idea posted here and in other forums.

[thorme]

The more I think about it, this would change deck construction pretty radically.  Hosers get pretty insane when they all effectively have  Random Basic Landcycling 0.  Even things like Eldrazi Monument in Standard which is often played as a 3-of since it isn't great in your opener, and having multiples does no good - suddenly you can safely run as a 4-of.

Maybe an Abundance for every player is a better way to go.  


Mana Well

Legendary Artifact
If <this> is in your sideboard, you may play it as though it were in your hand.
Whenever a player would draw a card, they may instead choose land or nonland and reveal cards from the top of their library until they reveal a card of the chosen kind. They put that card into their hand and put all other cards revealed this way on the bottom of their library in a random order.
When Mana Well comes into play, each player may exile any number of cards from their hand and then draw that many cards.


Ugh - no simple way to do this...I don't know.  (and this version's probably busted with 1-land academy.dec)

[jro]

It's worth mentioning that R&D seems to view mana screw as a feature, not a bug.  For instance, the Latest Developments article last week talked about how maintaining a high variance in the value of card draws (drawing a "blank" vs drawing a useful card) is a major contributor towards making comebacks.

That said, I think methods to address mana screw and mana flood should certainly exist, but there's no need for one solution that trumps all others.  Current mechanisms like Cycling, X spells, Kicker, Reusable abilities, etc. do a pretty decent job of stabilizing mana issues, and there's a lot more design space that has yet to be explored in finding other solutions.

[thorme]

It's worth mentioning that R&D seems to view mana screw as a feature, not a bug. 

They sorta have to make this claim.  The ship has sailed a bit far for them to admit what everybody knows - that mana screw/flood is an unfortunate part of the game, and that most subsequent card games have learned this lesson and do not incorporate this unfun "feature".

These days, I play almost exclusively Limited, and (especially in a Zendikar-like format) seems like more games than not are won by the player who happens to get a good mix of lands and spells - even with landfall in the mix which was another attempt to lessen the impact of mana flood.

You make a good point though - Mana Well is taking a shotgun to the problem...I just question how much the individual mitigation mechanisms have really done to address the issue.

[Matt]

I also play tons of limited, and I have to say that I like the option to build a manabase incorrectly. It's an area where I can gain an edge on bad players (or even better players who are worse at building). Zendikar draft is maybe too far in that direction, but a format like S/C/A was much much better for having mana screw as part of the game.

[Oath of Happy]

I like this card a lot.  Another thing worth noting is that it gives free storm and a free Tolarian pump as well.  Plus, if the opponent knows you're mana screwed they can play there own and kill it since they are legendary.  Would it be worth making this card restricted as part of it's text so that if your opponent wants to kill it, you can't just keep playing them?

[thorme]

I also play tons of limited, and I have to say that I like the option to build a manabase incorrectly. It's an area where I can gain an edge on bad players (or even better players who are worse at building). Zendikar draft is maybe too far in that direction, but a format like S/C/A was much much better for having mana screw as part of the game.

Couldn't disagree more.  First off though, to make sure we're on the same page, I define mana screw to be drawing a disproportionally low number of lands compared to the number in your deck...mana flood as drawing a disproportionally high number of lands.  A dumbass opponent rocking 10 lands in their draft deck isn't getting mana screwed when they can't play their 3-drop on turn 3 (not in my book). 

The issue is that there is a high degree of variability in card distribution while at the same time there is a tight sweet-spot for the mix of lands and spells.

Secondly, getting rid of mana screw/flood doesn't mean that you'll be able to ignore building a proper deck that takes curve into account and how you'll maximize each turn.  Plenty of opportunity to both out-build and out-play your opponent should still exist (mcuh as it does in the WoW card game for instance, where win or lose every game is still a game and both folks get to play).

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

So basically storm decks get 11 sideboard slots and increase their goldfish by at least 1/2 a turn. It also makes Arcane Denial five times better than Fact or Fiction. Sounds good to me. Oh and the card probably does something else that doesn't matter. I don't know, something about lands.

[thorme]

So basically storm decks get 11 sideboard slots and increase their goldfish by at least 1/2 a turn. It also makes Arcane Denial five times better than Fact or Fiction. Sounds good to me. Oh and the card probably does something else that doesn't matter. I don't know, something about lands.

I'm guessing that you're referring to the second version of Mana Well, as the Arcane Denial comment makes no sense with the first version (not that it makes much sense with the second as you're still giving your opponent 2 free business spells...it does apply to both players).   Actually, I'm pretty much at a total loss as to what you mean by this card making Arcane Denail busted...can you explain further?

I mentioned in the post that the version was probably busted - thanks for reiterating.  The storm factor is real, and needs to be addressed - I would hate to use Oath of Happy's idea of making it self-restricting though, as that makes an increasingly complex idea require even more custom text.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

So basically storm decks get 11 sideboard slots and increase their goldfish by at least 1/2 a turn. It also makes Arcane Denial five times better than Fact or Fiction. Sounds good to me. Oh and the card probably does something else that doesn't matter. I don't know, something about lands.

I'm guessing that you're referring to the second version of Mana Well, as the Arcane Denial comment makes no sense with the first version (not that it makes much sense with the second as you're still giving your opponent 2 free business spells...it does apply to both players).   Actually, I'm pretty much at a total loss as to what you mean by this card making Arcane Denail busted...can you explain further?

I mentioned in the post that the version was probably busted - thanks for reiterating.  The storm factor is real, and needs to be addressed - I would hate to use Oath of Happy's idea of making it self-restricting though, as that makes an increasingly complex idea require even more custom text.

You can counter it with Arcane Denial and draw 3 cards for 2 mana at sorcery speed which is basically Ancestral Recall 2-5. None of the text on that card matters other than the mana cost of 0 and "If <this> is in your sideboard, you may play it as though it were in your hand." In fact if you just printed this:

Random Card - 0
(Legendary?)Artifact
If <this> is in your sideboard, you may play it as though it were in your hand.

It would be broken by itself. You're just cluttering up the card with needless text about lands.

[thorme]

Not quite Ancestral, but I see what you mean...another card that, though unlikely to be broken in half in other formats, contributes to further Vintage/Legacy degeneracy.  In any case, as per jro's initial point, I'll try to work on fixes that are more subtle (even if they are also likely to be less effective).

[A_Outcast]

Mana Well   
Legendary Artifact
If <this> is in your at the begining of the game, you may begin the game with it in play.
Whenever a player would draw a card, they may instead choose land or nonland and exile cards from the top of their library until they exile a card of the chosen kind. They put that card into their hand.

This way it fixes mana flood AND mana screw, while not increasing storm count and not being really abusable.  If you really want to take it a step futher you could add another line of text.
Card's in each player's hand have ", exile this card: Draw a card.  Play this ability only at any time you could play a sorcery"

Allowing for it to have added utility.  This allows players to, at sorcery speed, cycle dead cards into (hopefully) better cards, or it could hit worse cards, at the small cost of 1 mana.

[Matt]

I also play tons of limited, and I have to say that I like the option to build a manabase incorrectly. It's an area where I can gain an edge on bad players (or even better players who are worse at building). Zendikar draft is maybe too far in that direction, but a format like S/C/A was much much better for having mana screw as part of the game.

Couldn't disagree more.  First off though, to make sure we're on the same page, I define mana screw to be drawing a disproportionally low number of lands compared to the number in your deck...mana flood as drawing a disproportionally high number of lands.  A dumbass opponent rocking 10 lands in their draft deck isn't getting mana screwed when they can't play their 3-drop on turn 3 (not in my book).  

The issue is that there is a high degree of variability in card distribution while at the same time there is a tight sweet-spot for the mix of lands and spells.

Yeah, we have the same definitions (there's also color screw, where your number of mana sources is fine but the colors are off), I just disagree that mana issues are a bad thing for the game. It's an unpleasant feeling to be screwed, but unpleasant is not the same as bad. Punishing people who make mistakes is exactly what a strategy game SHOULD do.

Also (and I know this sounds paradoxical with my previous point but really it isn't), the existence of mana screw/flood means that even worse players have some chance at beating better ones that they wouldn't have otherwise. Psychologically, there's a big difference between "small but nonzero" and "zero". Even fi the other guy has a better deck, you can always hope for flood!

Secondly, getting rid of mana screw/flood doesn't mean that you'll be able to ignore building a proper deck that takes curve into account and how you'll maximize each turn.  Plenty of opportunity to both out-build and out-play your opponent should still exist (mcuh as it does in the WoW card game for instance, where win or lose every game is still a game and both folks get to play).

Just because there are still strategic deckbuilding decisions to make, doesn't mean that you haven't taken some of the strategic decisions away. The fact that players still have to draft, mulligan, and play correctly doesn't mean you aren't doing a decent bit of deckbuilding hand-holding for them.

(I am reminded of the old joke - Juggernaut's ability is actually a BONUS, not a drawback, because it doesn't let you forget to attack!)

[thorme]

Punishing people who make mistakes is exactly what a strategy game SHOULD do.

I still think we must have different definitions of mana screw.  My definition doesn't allow for any sort of "mistake" to result in mana screw (short of some sort of weird shuffling method that actively harms your card distribution).

[Matt]

If you make a mistake with your deckbuilding, you get manascrewed more often...?

[thorme]

As I thought - your definition seems to be something along the lines of mana screw = not getting enough mana to play your spells.  Mine though is mana screw = drawing a disproportionally low number of lands. 

An example: If my opponent has 10 lands in his 40 card draft deck, he can expect to draw 3 lands from his first 12 cards.  If turn 4 rolls around and he misses his 4th land drop and has a stack of 4-drops in his hand, I don't consider him to be suffering from mana screw, his deck is giving him the exact number of lands it should.   From what I infer, you would call him a victim of mana screw.

It may be semantics, but what I'm after is attempting to lessen the impact of mana screw (by my definition) -- if there is a clean way to do this while not lessening the impact of poor deck construction, all the better...a good design challenge that.

[Matt]

Land Tax, Tithe?

[Anusien]

Mana Screw is supposed to be part of the game.

Instead, what about:

Mana Fixing 1G
Sorcery
Discard any number of cards. Search your library for that many basic land cards, reveal them, and put them into your hand. Shuffle your library.
Draw a card.

[Killane]

Mana Screw is supposed to be part of the game.

Instead, what about:

Mana Fixing 1G
Sorcery
Discard any number of cards. Search your library for that many basic land cards, reveal them, and put them into your hand. Shuffle your library.
Draw a card.

This feels slightly too strong. Suggest costing at 1GG or removing the cantrip. Someone always ends up finds ways to abuse anythign that tutos for multiple cards.

[Cyberpunker]

Mana Screw is supposed to be part of the game.

Instead, what about:

Mana Fixing 1G
Sorcery
Discard any number of cards. Search your library for that many basic land cards, reveal them, and put them into your hand. Shuffle your library.
Draw a card.

By the time you get 2 lands, you should be fine...

[thorme]

If I really wanted to continue, I'd probably look at something like:

Leyline of Abundance
Enchant World
1G
If Leyline of Abundance is in your sideboard, you may begin the game with it on the battlefield.
Whenever a player would draw a card, they may instead choose land or nonland and exile cards from the top of their library until they exile a card of the chosen kind. They put that card into their hand.


Seems pretty fair for a symmetric Abundance and accomplishes much of what I'm after (though this one has the potential for abuse in threshold or w/ the delve mechanic or something by playing 4 in your SB and putting them all into play (which, being an enchant world, allows you to start the game with leylines in your graveyard).

I'm not sure that more subtle answers wouldn't be better and more interesting.  Things like the landcycling cards are a good start for helping gain you mana early if you're tight, but being big monsters later if you have extra lands around to cast them...the challenge there being how to make them better tools against screw given that they all still take 2 mana to use.

I'll put some more thought in - but thanks everyone for the comments.  This thread has certainly gotten me thinking.

[Killane]

If I really wanted to continue, I'd probably look at something like:

Leyline of Abundance
Enchant World
1G
If Leyline of Abundance is in your sideboard, you may begin the game with it on the battlefield.
Whenever a player would draw a card, they may instead choose land or nonland and exile cards from the top of their library until they exile a card of the chosen kind. They put that card into their hand.


Seems pretty fair for a symmetric Abundance and accomplishes much of what I'm after (though this one has the potential for abuse in threshold or w/ the delve mechanic or something by playing 4 in your SB and putting them all into play (which, being an enchant world, allows you to start the game with leylines in your graveyard).

I'm not sure that more subtle answers wouldn't be better and more interesting.  Things like the landcycling cards are a good start for helping gain you mana early if you're tight, but being big monsters later if you have extra lands around to cast them...the challenge there being how to make them better tools against screw given that they all still take 2 mana to use.

I'll put some more thought in - but thanks everyone for the comments.  This thread has certainly gotten me thinking.

From a strict balance perspective, this version of the card seems very powerful, but not broken. However, like some others in this thread I do think that mana screw and flood are both features of the game and "solutions" to this feature are not 100% what the game needs. I would run this card in legacy in every deck I've every played there, and same goes for standard. I don't think I could find room in most Vintage sidebords though, which does tell me it's not too blindingly powerful.

[Anusien]

In general, I don't think the "begin with it from your sideboard" mechanic is all that good. Randomness is part of the game, and you don't get to wave your hands and take that away. It needs to come at a cost. It basically looks like you're trying to turn Magic into something it's not.

[Nazdakka]

FlyFlySideOfFry is right. A 0 mana artifact you can play from your sideboard is just plain broken. Even in environments where you can't do Arcane Denial tricks, I'm sure 4 free permenants could be used for something. There's also the benefit that you could very possibly do something clever by using it a bit like Hermit Druid to dump your entire library.

Mana Fixing 1G
Sorcery
Discard any number of cards. Search your library for that many basic land cards, reveal them, and put them into your hand. Shuffle your library.
Draw a card.

I'm afraid this has already been done: Rites of Spring.

In general, I don't think the "begin with it from your sideboard" mechanic is all that good. Randomness is part of the game, and you don't get to wave your hands and take that away. It needs to come at a cost. It basically looks like you're trying to turn Magic into something it's not.

Agreed. This card would fundamentally change the game of Magic.