This deck isn't that great, it got kinda raped when we did testing with it....  It's a COOL concept, not really a GOOD concept

Verbal warning for lack of content.
-Jacob Orlove

Zheng wins with blue white fish, Congrats, a smart player, taking the obvious best deck choice to the best tourney of the year and winning with it, i'm so glad to see this win waterbury, after I housed my way through the ruby tourney last week with it.

Alright, so after a short retirement of several months, I was finally convinced by outlaw into heading to a tournament this weekend, It was rather myriad or beanie exchange in springfield, being closer to springfield, I chose that one.  So I start to playtest a few nights before, undecided as what to play, I throw together 7/10, play some games against top, get smashed.  All of a sudden I have the urge to play blue white fish, thinking to myself "wow thats a really good deck"  So I tell outlaw if I can get u/w fish thrown together for sunday i'm in.

It's saturday, and i'm actually moving out of my house, so i'm busy all day, meanwhile outlaw was busy pwning face in myriad making top 4.  He finally arrives at the apartment around 11ish, we throw together u/w fish, play two games and head to bed.

So it's sunday morning, and we wake up and head out, we arrive to purple hats dorm room, and drive for a little over an hour, and we get there, 42 People on hand. I fill out my deck reg, that read something like this

u/w Fish:

Creatures: 13
4 - Cloud of faries
4 - spiketail hatchlings
3 - Meddling Mage
2 - ninja of the deep hour

Mana: 24
5 - Blue Fetches
4 - Island
3 - Tundra
2 - Moxen (derr)
4 - Mishra's factory
4 - Wasteland
1 - Stripmine
1 - Library of alexandria

Hotness: 23
3 - Nullrod
4 - Curiosity
4 - Standstill
2 - Swords to plowshares
4 - Force of will
2 - Daze
2 - Stifle
1 - Timewalk
1 - Ancestral Recall

SB: 15
2 - Aura Fracture
1 - Seal of Cleansing
1 - Disenchant
1 - Swords
1 - Crucible of Worlds
2 - Annul
3 - Energy Flux
3 - Arcane Lab
1 - Null Rod

Ok, so I'm gonng go through matches fairly quickly, because I think you all know how fish plays out, and not to brag or anything but I ripped through the tourney with relative ease.

Round 1: Squriell craft

Game 1: I get combo'd out
Game 2: I get down Fractures and own
Game 3: See game 2

Round 2: Landstill - Kid who counted purple hates deck and got him a match loss

Game 1: First turn library, he had no waste, I had too much tempo as he had no lands
Game 2: HMMM first turn LoA again went back and forth, but gay men = the win

Round 3: Top (outlaw a teamate)

Game 1: Something like turn 2 nullrod, turn 3 meddling mage, resolving in a early scoop.
Game 2: he keeps a hand of island, island, ak, ak, ak, ak, balance, I played first turn LoA, second turn strip mine (oops) He never recovers and the tempo is now mine

Round 4: CA

Game 1: Turn two he has a seat of synod, 2 moxen, and bazaar out, I look like i'm in trouble, until on my turn I play  nullrod, I then cast mage naming animate dead, he scoops
Game 2: He combo's out with dragon first turn.
Game 3: I side in my massive amounts of enchantment hate and own face.

I am 4-0, and draw my next two rounds in.

Top 8: ALL 3 of us who drove down together top 8, pretty decent numbers

I get paired up against oath

Game 1: I play turn one, mox, mox, meddling mage naming oath, and curisoity on him, he scoops.
Game 2: I once again side in my enchantment hate, and fracture is too much to handle.

Top 4:

I get paired up against a Teammate again, Which By the way all 3 of us who drove down together topped 8, pretty solid numbers, Purple hat just defeated outlaw, now it's my turn to show him whats up.

Game 1: I make the dumbest play error EVARRR that could have costed me the game when I had a very solid lock on him, I cast standstill, then cast meddling mage... YEAHHH, either way, I had too much goin on for me to lose that game.
Game 2: omg enchantment hate, I had 2 aura fracture, and a seal of cleansing on the board, gg.

Finals:

I play against bird shit.

Game 1: He mulls to 6, keeps a library only hand, I waste it, he never recovers as I gain major tempo
Game 2: He mulls again, I wasteland again, but this time he has more land, I am hitting with a few gay men, but he plays a nimble mongoose and a werebear, I get nervous, Only to draw all 4 of my factories, and overwhelm him with damage.

So after a short retirement, I make a return and steal a mox ruby, if anyone has any questions speak up.

Props: Purple hat for driving, and for getting owned by me, Outlaw and purple hat for both top 8'ing, Kowal for winning the side tourney for a drain, brass + outlaw + sextiger for lending me major cards.

Slops: not being able to find wendy's for 10 minutes, REDICULOUS

3U sorcery? gifts ungiven is infact an instance, and YES there was a salvager forum, i'm not gonna repeat this again, there was a salvager forum for about 10 minutes, ask Sextiger, Outlaw, Purple Hat, and maybe even kowal remembers this, i'm not lieing

Alright, i'm going to stop posting because obviously all of the "leet" members are comming into toads defense about it, and whoever put there was no salvagers forum, is wrong, and clearly doesn't remember it, I am almost positive I can have kowal vouche, and I know I can have sextiger, and purple hat vouche for it as well.

so keep on truckin

Toad i'm not trying to say you stole his decklist, you clearly took the idea of the combo, you just made it into a poor win condition, why cunning wish to win, when you can win RIGHT NOW, I know that concept is probably too hard for you to grasp, and with bird*shit and EBA on the rise, don't say meddling mage is that uncommon, because those are both decks that have recently topped 8 and big venues.

Secondly, What I originally was saying, lotushead was picked on in the threads, and please don't say he wasn't, because I remember an actual "salvagers forum" going up, and entire forum dedicated to salvagers, which was later revealed as a joke.
Are you thinking of the Suicide Black forum? In any case, you're wrong about there ever being a salvagers forum.



I didn't test and excessive amount against it, but I did test a few games, and the deck dies out quickly, so I pretty much whipped up on it, SO FAR, i'll test further against it.



do you even run a single aether spellbomb in the mainboard? I didn't see one.



Yea, I'll admit I was wrong on that, I see your point



Didn't you just tell me a single Aether spellbomb solves the problem of meddling mage? but why would you runs such a bad card? sounds like a contradiction of yourself

and another thing, what do you do against a deck that has a blessing in the maindeck?



No, it wouldn't be expecting that, also, I never said he had to give him props, but you can't deny lotushead came up with the basis of the deck.  When I say basis I mean the combo part of it, Toad customized the deck largely, and I am in no way saying he stole the deck.

I find it funny that months back everybody picked on lotushead for making a deck revolving around this, then toad drops his list and all of a sudden everybody is all ears.  The deck is so-so, no MD win condition of course is a huge problem, considering meddling mage pretty much auto wins against this deck, and no he's not that uncommon.  Also, Intuition seems like it could work just as good in this deck, and with that you could fit in the AK engine, for a better draw engine.

Hopefully lotusheads work on the deck doesn't get lost in the "meandeck" craze, also, I don't understand why such a complex way to finish the job instead of just running the mainboard pyrite spellbomb, that way you don't have to worry about how much mana you have floating when your going off

I can't force myself to believe psychatog can make any sort of real comeback.  Did the restriction of trinisphere inspire you to make this decklist up?  The main problem I see with this, is it still looks like it will have a hard time against goblin welder decks, despite the 1 EE.  Also, I don't think that i've ever seen tog fully recover after a titan has hit the board and nuked it's lands.  I could be wrong, but I recently playtested against a newer version of tog against a very experienced tog player and it didn't win any games.  BUT, we'll see how this turns out

not to mention caltrops is a card that has already been mentioned a while back, and it's not a new tech, i'll be a broken record and say fish doesn't have a very good matchup with workshop as it is.

I fully agree with everything you said, especially the interactivity sections, however the yoda part was very strange.

Very good read.

I am not understanding how people are calling out for dark ritual to get restricted, the fact of the matter is, decks with ritual are not consistantly winning tournaments, even with 4 rituals, if you take that away, then it will absolutely KILL the majority of combo and turn the format into a "I play control" format.  

The same goes for trinisphere, while the numbers are higher then that of dark ritual, the decks aren't consistantly taking tournaments, and if a card is looking for restriction, you should be looking at decks that are always winning.  I don't think you can take away trinisphere, the main reason workshop stands a chance in the format and be happy with it, not to mention your for the restriction of welder, by the sounds of it, you want the majority of type one to be control.

Saying elvish spirit guide should get restricted is also silly, i'm not seeing where this is comming from, if it's "to kill belcher too" then you might want to realize how many cards beat belcher... Nullrod, damping matrix, force of will, mana drain, duress... etc

However, the card that i'm looking at is intuition, which I believe to be the most powerful unrestricted card out there.  Turn one welder turn 2 intution does indeed require no skill, and you probably just won the game by doing that.  I pray this card gets it, I voted to restrict one card

This excuse means nothing, yawgmoth's will not being in the top two decks of waterbury doesn't prove that the card isn't just plain silly, nothing in magic compares to the pure power of this card, it's mindless, and when resolves it's probably the end of the game.  Cards are restricted ONLY because of yawgmoth's will, like smmenen said, and there is something wrong with that.

When your playing a really close, well faught game, and your in pretty commanding lead, and you have 6 cards to their 3 for example, and they have a force and topdeck a yawg's will, they resolve that will and win the game (don't tell me that has never happened to you).  That is not right, and that sort of thing should not be happening, yawgmoth's will also allows you to replay all of the restricted cards which is kind of goes against the fact that they only want you to run 1 copy of them in each deck due to the power, and you are fighting against a card that will let you play all of them on one turn over again?  

Now about tinker, lotus, bargain etc... You cannot even think about saying they are anywhere near as bad as yawg's will.  Like jacob said about tinker, it can be solved by a goblin welder.  Yes cross, I understand your point about yawgmoth's will and tormod's crypt, but goblin welder isn't exactly uncommon in type one, unlike tormod's crypt.  If you want to compare something to yawgmoth's will, it'd have to be tolarian academy.

Lotus is of course is going to be in all of the top decks at a tournament, because it's the best mana accelerant in the game, and while mana accelerant is very important, it doesn't automatically win you the game.

Bargain, yes, this is pretty much game ending as well, but the fact is, it's 4BB, which is dramatically different then 2B, and is ONLY playable in combo (unlike will)



I find it hard to believe yawgmoth's will didn't gain you any mana, didn't recast your ancestral recall, didn't find an answer to a problem on the board and didn't give you the edge in the game all on one turn when it was casted, Yawgmoth's will is just a stupid stupid way to lose, and something should be done about it.

@Jacob - Claiming that necro is bad is totally BS, Duress doesn't necessarily kill it off, alot of the decks that run necro, run FoW, and i'm sure after drawing a crapload of cards, your going to find a force.  if People aren't winning the next turn, there is probably something weird going on after seeing so many cards.


and last but certainly not least, people are ranting about how trinisphere should get restricted, and there are a few saying mana drain.  The major problem that I see is intuition.  It's starting to become a constant "must counter" card, and if a welder is on the board, is usually a game ender.  Not to mention if you have *sigh* yawg's will in your hand.

Hey huge props for bringing that deck back in man.  It's good to see that some people aren't money hungry, I got an entire deck of mine stolen months back, never to be seen again, where were you then?

No, It doesn't mean we should stop trying to come up with ideas until the new set comes out... BUT

A. People are constantly trying to be innovative, and tons of people bring rogue decks to every major tourney and most of them scrub out because they are just inferior

B. Making newer and fresher decks DOES NOT improve the quality of type one in any way

C. I'm not understanding your whole "setting a goal" statement, I don't see what "goal" has even been reached, was MTG nominated for an oscar this year and is everybody content with the way things are now instead of trying to push for a nod next year? I don't remember anybody claiming the ultimate type one goal has been reached (whatever that may be)




We need to? Why do we need to focus on what is already available to us? how is this going to change anything, and why are you even concerned about this?  If you think this is what is important, then make up your own rogue deck, take it to a tournament and win with it.

I am not understanding what the big deal is about how a deck is discovered, if new cards keep comming out, they have to be looked at, are you trying to imply good decks only keep comming out because new cards are comming out, and instead of this, we should be looking at older cards for NEW good decks? if thats the case, I don't understand why you would even have an opinion about something like that, the format is what it is, it's COMPLETELY fine the way it is.

I tend to assume there are TONS of teams in vintange, just people are not aware of them, Part of the reason is it's not easy to be as outspoken on the forums when their access to the regular "tournament forums" is limited, and exams are being denied, so random.team is being overlooked, meanwhile team Meandeck/Shortbus is written in bold lettering everywhere (no, not literally).

I think if someone even has a friend that is involved in type one magic, and they playtest with eachother, and don't give their "team" an official name, they are still a team.

Not necessarily looking out for them as a business, just stateing that from a business standpoint they will draw more people with ten proxies, which is what everybody wants, it makes for a better metagame and a more accurate metagame, and SCG making more money off ten proxies is just a reason why they should do it.

So your saying you like the idea of winning based on the fact you have invested more money into your cards rather then the ability of a player.

I have been playing 5/3 for a while, and won the mana drain open with it, That was only possible with 10 proxies, I have played 5/3 for a long time now, and that is my deck of choice, I can comfortably play it with ten proxies, and I think it gives ME the best chance to win, which is completely not possible with only five proxies, I'm not going to go to a tournament with FCG and try to win it, if deep down inside thats not the deck I want to be playing, and isn't the deck that i've spent MONTHS of playtesting and tuning.

I will never be able to understand your opinions of five proxies, and I'm sure if you were in my position, along with several others, you would agree.

Ok first of all, plz don't compare magic the gathering to life, magic is a game, games are meant to be fair, so if your arguement is "life isn't fair" then it's a very bad one, and sounds like something a 12 year old would argue....



Secondly, Yes I would like to see more Workshop/Combo decks, it is what type one is all about, powerful decks, and besides, if someone can sucessfully run a workshop or combo deck with five proxies, they have the advantage over the rest of the compeitiion, it shouldn't be a game about who has more money, it should be about play ability, I can't understand how you don't agree on that.  Also have you looked at waterbury's recent top 16 standings, that happened to be a ten proxy tournament, by the way 202 people showed up, and how many decks were workshop/trini or combo decks in the top 16? not too many, another one of your points down the drain.



I'm not sure if you understand the topoic, the point is to GET more to show up, I have no idea why you would say something like this.




Noone said this event was going to stop the popularity of type one, people aren't going to quit magic over, but alot more just won't show up to this particular event.  I'm not sure if you have noticed lately, but just about EVERY other type one tournament is having ten proxies, it's not about your personal preference on five proxies opposed to ten, it's about a business standpoint, I want to attend this event, which can only be possible with a ten proxy limit, I know YOU personally don't care if I go, but I would like to compete in this thing as well.

Maybe attendance won't be down that dramatically in numbers, but enough to be noticeable, and if thats the case, then it's a problem.  Every major tournament EXCEPT SCG has been ten proxies.  I mean ray listened to what people had to say and upped the proxy count from 5 to 10, I don't see why SCG can't consider to do something like this.  

Small example: They have a five proxy limit, me and my 3 other friends will not be able to attend SCG NY, 30 dollars per entry fee...120 dollars of money they could be making on our entry fee that they won't with 5 proxies.  will upping the count from five to ten proxies scare people away? no, but will allowing only five proxies? yes.  The point is, the numbers add up, and you cannot argue they don't lose business by having only five proxies....anyone who wants to try to see if they will make this CORRECT, please post it in here.



http://www.starcitygames.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=270985&start=25





EDIT:


Yea and the game isn't built for the type one, the tournament is, MTG is primarily a type 2 game, I don't see how this point is relivant to the topic at hand.  I don't see how you would consider it abusive to allow people to build a deck that they want to play by using the ten proxies.  It's a fair way to even out the playing field, regardless of how you wanna look at it, if someone is thinking in their head "control slavery is the best deck, and I think I could win with it" don't you think they have the right to try to win with it? not "so i'll just play FCG"  Your saying the game isn't meant to be abused, so how does that relate to FORCING people to rather

A. Not go, SCG loses 30 dollars minimum
B. Play a crappy deck they don't have a chance to win with.

By taking away someones option to play a deck, it takes away an individuals ability to play the game, it starts to turn into "he has more money then me, so he wins" rather then "he's a better player" and THAT my friend is not the way the game is meant to be played

Real classy, stay classy revvik also stay class san diego

Yes you are correct, a turn 1 smokestack is very much better then a turn 1 juggy, but I don't think it's fair to say stax is a better deck then 5/3, especially all that 5/3 has accomplished over the summer winning tons of major tournies, while stax is kind of getting lost on the radar.  Stax is a more broken deck, but broken doesn't always mean "good"  yes maybe a turn 1 smokestack is alot better then a juggy, but the real turn 1 play's you have to be watching for are turn 1 trinisphere and turn 1 crucibles, they are both very common in each deck, and I think after the turn 1 trinisphere, a juggernaut is probably your best bet.  now they HAVE to answer it while he's beating face and your disrupting their game.  A smokestack is slower, and will eventually eat itself if a crucible is not on the table.

Stax is a very good deck, but it struggles with consistancy issues as always, I can't ever see this deck consistantly winning big tournies anymore like 5/3 can, because of that issue.  well all know stax has fun times against slavery and a welder on the board, and while this trend in type 1 is still strong, I think it makes stax look a little weaker.  I also disagree about the draw 7's being a huge part of stax, I think 1-2 draw 7's are enough in stax, but I wouldn't say it's major.

Now don't get me wrong, Stax is an amazing deck, It's very powerful, and is capable of taking a major tournament, but alot of the major popular decks currently floating around in the meta, I don't see it happening

no fastbond? cmon now, grow isn't grow with the bond of fastness

Nice report dude, I'm so happy that you finally broke outta your shell.  Our team deserves a shitload of credit, placing at least 1 of 3 members in a top 8 in 90% of the tournies we attend.  You deserved this so much, I luv you, almost as much as I hate control slavery.  5/3 will have it's revenge.  If only you didn't get paired up against the guy in top 16 playing it, or I could have watched my deck win another lotus  

Also, cmon now, World of warcraft... 4th on your things to do list? WEAK, it should be up around 1-2.  Anyone else play WoW message me up.

and I might as well fill in how I did at waterbury here too:

Round 1: I lose to stax, the time expires when we are in game 2, so I get a 1-0 loss, OOPS

Round 2: I win easily over replenish.dec, amusing it was, the guy was awesome though

Round 3: WTF I lose to a 5/3 variant, who later lost to phelon in top 16, man he had KILLER hands.

Round 4: Easily win over control madness

Round 5: belcher takes me to game 3, but I have an insane opening hand.

Round 6: he's playing oath, I force a game three by topdecking fire/ice on his last draw step of the game, i'm at 2, he swings with akroma, I tap it in response, he AK's in response.....I'm still in shock he didn't have anymore counter magic.  I keep a pretty crappy hand in game 3 cuz I feel like I stole a victory in game 2 and I lose very quickly.

I drop, I wanted to watch outlaw wreck house the rest of the day and thats that.  Anyone interested in a decklist, lemme know.

Good job dude, bragging rights for the rest of your life!!

Little secret though, it feels pretty good to sneak by a couple of wins, hopefully in the future

In round 5 against sextiger, you were playing the mirror match, he wasn't playing hulk, those togs were a side in

Generally I don't like to post in these kind of forums, especially after it's already been through ten pages of topics.  But after going to waterbury, I was thinking to myself "R/G Hate would be a really good deck to play for" Thinking there would be tons of slavery there.  Well I was right.  I did not decide to play R/G however, I played my typical 5/3 build with a few changes (mainboard chalices, platinum angel, and mindslaver).  I caught a few unlucky breaks with my matches and ended up dropping.

But my question is, now that CS is on even more of a rise then it once was, and is not the definitive "deck to beat", what do you guys think of this list, and tell me any changes you would make, I think it could be very solid in the current metagame.  Here is what we have goin on.

Hatechoface - A TST creation

Beatchoface: 15
4 Kird ape
4 River Boa
4 Grim Lavamancer
3 Gorilla Shaman

Hatechoface: 10
3 Nullrod
3 Naturalize
2 Artifact Mutation
2 Price of Progress

Manachoface: 21
4 Taiga
4 Fetchlands
4 wasteland
1 Stripmine
3 mountains
3 Forest
1 Mox emerald
1 Mox ruby

Hollaatchaboy:
1 Wheel of fortune
4 Rancor
2 Lava dart
1 Regrowth
2 Crucible of worlds
4 Lightning bolt


Sideboard:
4 Pyrostatic Piller
4 Chalice of the void
4 REB's
3 Ground seal



The sideboard is adjustable, The decks main weakness is obviously it's combo matchup, I think with the 4 pillars and the 4 chalices it gives it a chance to win.  I'm also skeptical on the creature base.  Anything better to play? This deck is brutal to alot of the major decks in the format, and maybe something to watch out for.

Nice first place list, I have actually been working on my own variant of a 5 color 5/3 mana base which is semi-similar to yours, I think you nailed the metagame right on the head, and took home another victory for the best deck in type 1, congrats dude.

Edit:  So how much oath was there actually at this tournament? I've heard various numbers, whats the closest estimate?  Also, no oath in the top 8?   Gotta love that.

Ok nullrod doesn't hurt your deck that much, it only makes 16 of the cards in your deck do nothing, I mean no big deal, no acceleration, and no slaving....

Damping matrix is too slow? how is something that practically wins you the game against slavery too slow at the cost of 3 colorless.... Workshop/Damping matrix I agree is far too slow, in type 1 you CANNOT get 3 mana within the first two turns... it's nearly impossible.  Also maybe you should cut those thirsts for serum visions, Thirsts are way too slow.  

you couldn't find better slots in the control slaver deck rather then Aether Spellbomb and echoing truth?  What is the reasoning to use these cards?  I don't really think bounce fits in well in this deck, It may delay the game 1 turn, why not just take out a truth and add a chain of vapor so if you slave them you can ruin their board completely.

Also, slavery is hurt enough by nullrod/damping matrix, you don't need to make it even worse (spellbombs)

Yes, corey was rockin the 2 Island tech.... How did you like it?  I love it personally, they always seem to play a big part in my victories, especially in endicott