Hi everyone. I'm Gert Rammeloo and I'll post a tournament report here. Credit where credit is due – this thread was what made me play Dark Times at the Dutch open. Anyway, I wasn't intending on writing a tournament report beforehand and I didn't take any notes, so the match reports will generally be pretty basic and superficial. (Edit: it turned out to be a lot longer than I expected)

First, some explanation on card choices: I don't own Imperial Seal, Mox Jet or Black Lotus. If I did, I would definitely play these cards.

I didn't run the Helm/Leyline combo main deck because I wanted to go all in on the hate cards. Incidentally, Null Rod served me very well.

I also believe that Tendrils is a more than capable secondary kill option, despite the budgetary nature of this deck and the general lack of brokenness. Chalice storms nicely (doesn't require any mana and several combine very well with Will), and a Dark Ritual or 2 go a long way. I also have tutors to get the missing cards, be that Dark Ritual or Demonic Tutor (I will often play Vampiric Tutor for Demonic Tutor, and then Demonic Tutor for both Will and Tendrils).

I thought a long time about whether or not to include Necropotence and it can be a drag to draw it early on, but it is just too powerful. It actually won me 2 games and never clogged any of my hands.

Anyway, on with the tournament report. Since I did not intend to write this and do not attend tournaments regularly, I do not know the names of any of my swiss round opponents. I hope this does not offend anybody. With regards to the top 8 players, their full decklists can be found here:

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=41499.0

Round 1: Mono red aggro (2-1)

SB: -2 Chalice, +2 Massacre

This was a very intruiging deck. I think this guy ended up going 3-3 or something, so that was pretty good. Cards I remember being in this deck are

Blood Moon
Magus of the Moon
Ancient Tomb
Simian Spirit Guide
City of Traitors
Manic Vandal
Dead/Gone
Lightning Bolt
Umezawa's Jitte
Cunning Sparkmage
Figure of Destiny

I think he was packing 8 Moon effects total, so you can see how this matchup could be a little annoying. The first game I got a Marit Lage token on turn 3 I think without having encountered any hate.

The second game he got a Magus of the Moon out quickly with some smaller critters (2 Figure of Destiny I think). I didn't see Massacre and Diabolic Edict didn't succeed in getting rid of Magus of the Moon. His Figures of Destiny were growing quickly and beating me down.  

However I had played a Confidant early on and was getting close to a Tendrils kill. Near the end I had 9 lives and a Dark Confidant left, he had 2 4/4 Figure of Destiny and a Magus of the Moon and I was planning to block one FoD with Confidant, play a Vampiric Tutor to Will EoT and kill him with Tendrils in my turn.

However he drew a Cunning Sparkmage and I couldn't play Vampiric Tutor anymore (to be fair, he had a lot of topdecks).

The third game I Thoughtseize'd a Magus of the Moon and took it from there (Marit Lage kill). Luckily, I didn't see Blood Moon at all.


Round 2: MUD (0-2)

SB: - 1 Darkblast, -1 Tendrils, -2  Chalice, +4 Emissary of Despair

I always like to side out Tendrils in this matchup because let's face it, that's not happening. Darkblast is not very good here either.

Anyway, I didn't stand a chance this round.

He won the die roll and played a first turn Smokestack the first game. I had no Rituals or Chalices to get more than 1 permanent going and basically lost against this play. I wasted 2 or 3 Workshops but he got another one and killed me shortly after that.

Anyway I mulliganed to 6 and kept a pretty average hand. I was a little short on mana and he actually immediately stripped my Urborg. I didn't draw lands and the Wasteland I was holding couldn't get me to play any cards.


Round 3: G/W aggro (2-1)

SB: -3 Null Rod, +2 Massacre, +1 Perish

Cards this guy was running:

Aethersworn Canonist
Gaddock Teeg
Mother of Ruins
Root Maze
Swords to Plowshares
Pithing Needle (SB)
Qasali Pridemage (I'm actually not positive of this, but he had to run them, right?)

The first game he was mana screwed like nobody's business. He had just a single plains and I don't think he played any cards. He was really unlucky because he drew like 7 cards beyond the opening hands and didn't see any lands. I got a couple of StP's out of his hand and, belatedly, finished with a Marit Lage.

(My game was pretty bad as well, though nowhere near his).

Game 2, I played abysmally. He got a pair of Mother of Ruins out quickly and I didn't succeed in dealing any damage with a pair of Hexmages and a Dark Confidant. He got a Pithing Needle out so the Tendrils option was looking like my easiest way out. At one point I had all the pieces and was ready to blow a Vampiric Tutor at the end of his turn for Will or Demonic.

The interesting thing here is that I was holding a Null Rod this game (the single one that I had left MD) but didn't think to play it because I hadn't seen a single artifact yet. I just kept it in my hand even though I didn't use the mana for any other cards.

He still had just his plains and the turn after which I was planning on killing him he drew a Lotus Petal, and played a Canonist. Now I had to work around this creature and ended up losing a game I clearly should have won. I remember scooping afterwards even though I had a Massacre which would have cleared the board (I don't think it would have won me the game but I could have tried, at least).

Looking back on that game, I was amazed at how badly I played there. I think my hunger was getting to me here.

Game 3, he actually had his first good game (no mana screw) and we were trading blows. We ended up in a sort of stalemate and I drew a Necropotence. At this point I had a Dark Confidant in play, 2 cards in hand and 18 lives remaining.

I paid 8 lives (somewhat arbitrarily, though I could assume a 10-card hand would contain some dead cards like Chalice or excess lands). I drew some Edicts but the bunch was pretty bad overall. In addition, he Nature's Claim'd my Necro. However when it was my turn again I revealed a Will with Confidant and killed him on the spot (my graveyard had, among other things, a Demonic Tutor in it).

I actually had a Tendrils kill in 2 of the 3 games here, despite Canonist and Gaddock Teeg. I should've won this game sooner but was very glad to be able to finish it after all.

I'm not sure what changed after this game, but I played a lot more relaxed and generally better from here on out (though I hadn't made any mistakes, as far as I could see, before this game either).

Round 4: Counter-top (2-1)

SB: -4 Chalice, +4 Sadistic Sacrament

The only piece of power this guy was packing was Ancestral Recall, I think, so I decided to side out  Chalice of the Void. Game 1 I resolved a Necropotence and it just got me too many cards (hand disruption + combo assembly). I still wasn't sure what my opponent was playing exactly but I hadn't seen a lot of threats so I thought Sadistic Sacrament could be useful here.

Game 2 I resolved a Sacrament on turn 1 with a Ritual (he was tapped out). I took Jace, Inkwell Leviathan (Tinker didn't have other scary targets, just Liquimetal Coating) and Sower of Temptation.

His kill condition and this point was 4 Gorilla Shaman and 1 Sower of Temptation. There were 20 minutes so I felt like I could coast this one out to a slow 1-0 victory. However I don't like this sort of douchy stuff so I just kept playing like I would have otherwise.

He had a Counterbalance with a Sensei's Divining Top and had clearly taken control of the game (though still without any threats). Shortly afterwards he started eating my lands with Shaman/Liquimetal Coating (I didn't succeed in resolving a Null Rod). I played a Necropotence in a controllish fashion (going from 20 to 17 lives) and he played a Pithing Needle on it. I quickly conceded and we had a good 15 minutes left going in to the final game.

I decided to keep Sadistic Sacrament because I felt like it somewhat castrated my opponent. I resolved it again, picking the same targets. His other Sower of Temptation was in his hand (I had seen it with Duress or Thoughtseize, but was forced at that time to pick a different target).

I resolved a Hexmage and was beating him down with it. I had a Dark Confidant in my hand but didn't want him to take it with Sower so I kept it. He seemed reluctant to play his Sower on Hexmage but I figured he obviously would at some point, so I did want to drop extra threats.

As soon as I could, I dropped 2 Dark Confidants in the same turn (I knew from disruption that they would resolve). He played a Sower for Confidant, then in my turn I Darkblasted Sower twice. At that point I had 2 Dark Confidants and a Hexmage and I beat him down quickly.  


Round 5: MUD (2-0)

SB: -1 Darkblast, -1 Tendrils, -2 Chalice, +4 Emissary of Despair

I'm not sure what happened the first game. I think I wasted one of his Wastelands and got a Marit Lage out pretty quickly.

The next game I got an Emissary of Despair out on the first turn and it went all the way. I never missed a land drop which turned out to be necessary. My opponent dropped a Lodestone Golem on turn 3 I think, and the next turn he dropped another one but failed to attack with the first one. If he had done so, he would've won this match (which he quickly realized himself). His Tanglewire came just short of having me tap my Emissary.

Round 6:  ID into top 8.

Quarter Finals: Thomas Hendriks playing elves combo

SB: - 1 Tendrils, +1 Perish

I knew Thomas' deck very well – my brother plays it occasionally. I understand that Perish doesn't really stop this deck, however with Null Rod stopping Skullclamp and Duress/Thoughtseize against Glimpse of Nature I tend to force this deck into an aggro playstile.

What really won me this match though (both games) was Chalice with 1 counter on it. I resolved several just in case he would play a Viridian Shaman. The first game he played around the Chalice with Timberwatch Elf (he had a Quirion Ranger from earlier). I drew a Diabolic Edict, he sacrificed Quirion Ranger, he attacked with Timberwatch Elf and I blocked it with a Confidant.

He didn't find an answser to Chalice and I beat him down. The next game was similar except I got a Marit Lage out here.

Semi-finals: Steven van den Bulck playing Prototype MUD

SB: -1 Tendrils, -1 Darkblast, -2 Chalice. +4 Emissary of Despair

I wasn't familiar with this deck but Null Rod was a trooper here. Game 1 I disrupted him sufficiently and finished him off with a Marit Lage.

Game 2 he got out a pair of Golems quickly and trampled me.

Game 3 he was mana screwed. I think I had a Chalice out on 0 (not sure) and a Wasteland was his only land. I had a Wasteland, 2 Swamps and 2 Confidants in play  and he had just a Wasteland (I think, not 100% sure).

In my turn I reveal a Vampiric Tutor with Confidant. At that point I was thinking for a while what I should pick: Dark Depths (I had a Hexmage in my hand) or Null Rod. There was no way I could play the Vampiric Tutor and resolve Hexmage the same turn, so I decided to go for Null Rod and waste his Wasteland. This made me kill like 2 turns slower I think, but I had taken all direct threats from his hand with discard and he literally had no mana, so I didn't see him surving that.



Finals: David Martinez playing Madness

SB: -4 Null Rod, +4 Leyline of the Void

Props to David for this deck, very original and great all around. I was lucky to be done with my semi-finals relatively quickly and was able to see an entire game of David's semi-final, so I sort of had an idea of what I was up against. I did not like what I was seeing. From what I hear, David also played the finals of the Dutch open last year with a madness deck (though he lost then).

We both mulliganed and I kept a pretty sub-par hand. I had only 1 land. I resolved a Thoughtseize, and, retardedly, pick FoW over Mystical Tutor. Immediately after doing so, I realize he's going to cast Mystical Tutor for Life from the Loam EOT and strip lock me, which he did.

I don't think I would've stood a chance either way because I would still have been mana screwed, but I still should've picked Mystical Tutor. In fact, in retrospect, I'm not sure why he didn't respond to Thoughtseize by playing Mystical, though my memory may be a bit fuzzy here.

Game 2 I kept a hand with 2 Confidants (but no Leyline) and got some draw going.
The thing about David's deck is that it takes a while to start dealing damage. I had a nice little Confidant draw engine going, he was dealing some damage with a power 3 Tarmogoyf and a Bloodghast. I was getting low on life but assembling a Tendrils kill. I started pitching some creatures to Tarmogoyf and keeping Confidant to draw me into some Rituals/tutors etc (I had a Tendrils in hand). In this going back and forth, I drew 2 Thoughtseizes (which were useless because of my low life total) and I tried twice to get a Will going with Dark Ritual but these were Circular Logic'd (I heard he drew 2 Circular Logic and a FoW with a Recall).

So he drew some nice cards with Recall, but on the other hand he was unlucky not to draw a land sooner and kill me with another Bloodghast sitting in his graveyard. I felt I came pretty close this second game, but it definitely deserved to go to David all the same. Great deck.


 

That was to Yare, btw.


Kataki is a very powerful creature indeed. I side some Fluxes to warrant me excluding them, but yeah. Running 3 is definitely not overkill. I wouldn't run Rootwater Thiefs, though. I mean this is a great creature and I've played with it for a long time but Meddling Mage is just better, and running both is slightly too much. There are better replacements. It's a bit slow and costly as well. Meddling Mage is also good against every deck (great against some), where Thief really is for specific match-ups.

I do disagree on Thief and Grunt being an awkward combination though. It's not like Grunt instantly makes Fish super aggro. It remains aggro-control, and preventing spells from happening will always be a part of its game plan. Still, the point stands that Meddling Mage is superior in this area and suffices creature-wise. Talking about the Grunt, I would have to say Everrid, that running 3 is a must. This is hardly arbitrary, not really up for debate, even. The Jotun Grunt is a sick creature. And unless your meta would surprisingly demand otherwise, it's an automatic 3-in. I'm probably going to be running 4 for a while now, see how that works out. Having run 3 for some time I can safely say so far I am amazed by this creature.

^^ You're right. At a certain point, when you know the staples, you just decide for yourself. I've been playing with Vials and Standstills for a long time now, and I love these cards. I've had succes with my Fish in tournaments, on MWS and in casual (but competitive) play, so I guess I'll stick to those.

I'll be testing hard to figure out that perfect creature base, but other than that I don't myself making any big changes any time soon.

Oh one more interesting card I'd like to mention that I don't think everyone knows is Azorius Guildmage. Works well with the Prodigy I ran 2 for a while but the abilities just proved a tad too expensive in the end. Still, interesting creature.

The new Jotun Grunt inspired me to rebuild my Fish deck. Here's what I came up with, tell me what you think. It's still a pretty traditional build with Standstills and Factories, because I just love those. Anyway, here's the list:

Lands: 21

3 Island
1 Plains
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Creatures: 15

4 Meddling Mage
3 Voidmage Prodigy
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Stormscape Apprentice
2 Ninja of the Deep Hours

Others: 24

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Standstill
4 Aether Vial
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Chrome Mox
1 Lotus Petal


Sideboard: 15

4 Pithing Needle
4 Seal of Cleansing
3 Energy Flux
2 Stifle
1 Jotun Grunt
1 Umezawa's Jitte

I've played with Azorius Guildmage instead of Stormscape Apprentice for a while, but his abilities were too expensive to be very useful, really. I also love Apprentice for the synergy with Ninja (and Prodigy, obviously, but Azorius had that as well). Jotun Grunt is just amazing, really. But running 4 clutters them up somewhat. Same for Voidmage Prodigy. Without Vial it's pretty slow and even then it's heavy on the manabase.

It's been running rather smoothly with this build, but I'm open to suggestions.

I totally overreacted on that statement >_>. Well, thanks. And yeah, Oath is a popular deck these days.

That means there were twice as many fish decks that didnt do as good as the Cerebral Assasin deck   Fish should be a pretty easy matchup for CA anyways...too many threats too fast for Fish (and the creatures are big to boot!)

I don't know CA at all, so I guess Fish could be an easy matchup. It just seemed like a doable deck to me after having played steffen (and getting my ass kicked, sure). I was a little surprised by the deck, but Fish can take care of many things, really. Disruption through Chalice and Mage, removal through StP (post-SB) and Jitte, permission through Prodigy, ..

This guy also met Oath. So I think we can safely say that he knew what he was doing in making the T8 and didn't really 'luck through' the rounds.

Such statements really prove how little you actually know about Fish (not meant to be offensive in any way). My brother has a solid budget/Null Rod Oath build and I play him all the time with my Fish. I can safely say that Oath is a very doable, if not wantable match-up. If I can get my Mage in on time I can usually stall long enough (he has to dig for answers) to set up the Prodigy/beat him to death. Otherwise it's a permission battle that can go either way. Sometimes, I even get away with the Jitte/Factory anti-Orchard 'combo'. Post-SB I add Stifle but especially SoC, and I really feel like having the upper hand.

In fact, I played 2 Oath decks on my way to the top 8 (1 unpowered, the other powered) and beat them both 2-1. I lost to Barrie 2-1 on the ID match though (we decided to play anyway).

And One-Hundred % of the 2-face decks also made T8. 


Yes, and? Besides, there were still twice as many Fish decks in the top 8 

Btb, steffen was at the easy site of the top 8, with a fish, and a control slaver on his way to the finals.... but he played well, and didn't lose, so congratz to him.


Vial Fish, actually. Btw, I had good chances against steffen and a lot of hate. Jitte (Welder), Seal of Cleansing, Plow. The first game he came down to 3 lives and had some luck with his Crypt. Second game my hand was pretty shaky and I made some awful draws.

Also, if I had them (and I should some time soon) I would've boarded in 4 Pithing Needles for those Welders, leaving steffen with a pretty hard match-up IMO. Let's not forget to mention my MD was pretty scrubby in the first place: I was missing 2 Mages and 2 Tundras.

Yeah ppl, thats how we look at Fish and Slaver in Dutchieland, it's the easy matchups 

That's funny, because 66.66% of all Fish decks made it in the top 8. That's pretty sick right there, wouldn't you say? I think you underestimate Fish or just haven't played against a capable build from a capable opponent.

My question for the people with the Crypts is; How good were they? I mean, I usually run a few as well and they are nearly always solid choices, but how many times did you board them in and did they work out for you?

I used to play with Crypts, but now I don't anymore. Ground Seal (anything), Swords to Plowshares (Dragon/Welder) and Pithing Needle (Welder) are more versatile IMO, you can side them in against more decks. Plus, I'm Mding 4 Chalice now, but that's just me of course.

Oh that one. Quite inferior to traditional Fish or Vial Fish IMO, but ok.

Really? I have not heard of such a build.

You must have missed this thread: http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/index.php?topic=26219.0
-Jacob

Well, if you find it possible to be running Karakas and duals, you should run 4 Karakas instead. It's still better than having to run duals for Oxidize. 6 non-basics is really pushing it.



And if your opponent draws bounce but you have that Samurai, there's no need to prevent it. If he has a Trisk in play and draws Bounce, he can realistically kill 5 of your creatures (double ping, ping himself, weld him back in). Point is that it's just a good help. I do agree on it being the least necessary though, so I see the problem you're having because of Chalice.


You're not only giving up an advantage against random-aggro. deck, you're giving up an advantage against most decks in the format. Chalice just stops the moxen and some other stuff, which get shut down with Null Rod anyway. So your problem is what? First turn kills?

And Fish doesn't run Chalice, Vial Fish does. The reason is because it can't run Null Rod. Plus, Vial Fish can effectively put Chalice on 1 or 2 thanks to Aether Vial.

None of the existing Fish builds run both Chalice and Null Rod MD.

Yeah well, instead of those duals, you could be running Karakas, which totally screws oath game 1. Karakas + Abolish > Dual + Oxidize. Sides, Abolish will never get Chalice'd and does have the ability to destroy an enchantment as well, should that be required. Just an added bonus. You could side it in versus Oath for example.


Trisk may be only a 4/4, but it is recurrable. It doesn't die, so to say. And at some point your opponent will draw/tutor an answer like Rushing River or something. I'm not saying it's gonna happen all the time, but I think you're giving Welder a little too few credit here. Anyway, I asked you what greater alternatives there are that demand those slots. My weenie built runs 4 Samurai, Seals and True Believer, and 3 Whipcorder and Kataki. What's the problem, really?



Don't forget you have no draw at all. Every second Chalice or Null Rod is a dead card. You're going to stop playing threats real soon. You'll have really bad topdecks.really bad:

- land
- Hound of Konda
- Kataki
- Chalice
- Null Rod

Optimizing the threats, the beats is absolutely essential. 4 Null Rods is even a lot, but of course passable. The 3 Chalices are just totally overkill. And again, Chalice on 1 is rarely an acceptable play. By my count, it shuts down 25% of your deck (StP, Javelineer, Lions, Hound). Seldom is that going to be a trade you're willing to make. Chalice pretty much sticks to '0', which makes it a dead card in several occasions:

- your opponent is playing an unpowered deck
- your opponent may begin the game
- you don't have it in your opening hand
- you already have one in play
- you have a Null Rod in play

I understand that in some of these cases Chalice is somewhat useful, but certainly, certainly not worth any slots. Seriously, you're running 4 Null Rods. 4 Added to that you're running 4 Kataki (also overkill IMO, it's a legend) and 4 Seal of Cleansing.

 

True, Jitte is better against aggro, but you can't sideboard it against Gifts to combat Pyroclasm or Oldman of the Sea.

How does Jitte not help against Pyroclasm? Just pump your creature. If you mean that Null Rod is too important against Gifts, then you do have a point. But that is a pretty niche deckrange to sideboard 4 cards for. Jitte is a lot more versatile.

And White Knight doens't help against Old Man of the Sea either.

Susceptible to Wasteland? You run a total of 2, TWO!, duallands and atleast something like 8 basic lands (if you max out on the fetchlands). How is a manabase like that susceptible to Wasteland? Besides, Disenchant and Seal of Cleansing wont help against Chalice set at 2, which shuts down a lot in this deck. Abolish might work though.

Those 2 non-basics could seriously screw you up though. I've had that happen with my White Weenie (Karakas). Abolish just owns it. Not only is Oxidize far more susceptible to Chalice than Abolish or even Disenchant for that matter, it's also even faster.

Sick without its ability? Sorry but a 2/2 bushido dork doesn't seem verry good to me.

I was overreacting, of course. Still, that's a fine weenie right there.

Anyway, I agree that graveyard hate can be powerfull, but the ability of the Samurai is verry limited. What does the samurai stop that the current maindeck doesnt? Welder? We have Swords, Javelineers, Chalice, Whipcorder and Null Rod. Wasteland? We have a ton of basics. Worldgorger Dragon? We have Wasteland, Seal, Swords, True Believer, Null Rod, Kataki and Chalice. What else does Samurai stop? Black Lotus?

Your opponent has cards too, you know. Fires, permission. Anyway, let's go over those cards you listed. Null Rod doesn't do a lot here. (Welding in fatties costs 3 mana; TFK. Sure, it cripples the player. But the can still Weld in the fatties). Chalice on 1? And screw 11 of your weenies? Not to mention 8 of your answers in StP and Javelineer. That's a pretty bad play. That leaves Javelineer and StP, which will not be ennough all the time. I agree with Dragon though. That's some sick maindeck hate you've got there.

Anyway, for 2 mana you get a great weenie all on its own with a nice little extra ability that will at times save your ass. Why would you not run it? What greater alternative is there that demands his slots?


Perhaps you dont need to both in play (though that wouldnt be completly useless depending) but you do need to draw either one of them in order to slow to opposing deck down. WW cant go broken like Gifts can. It needs one of these cards in order for Gifts to play fair. Since WW doesn't draw any cards it seems reasonable to play seven "speedbumps" instead of just 3-4.

Let's not forget that White Weenie is an agressive deck. Sure, some maindeck hate is fine. But 4 Null Rod and 4 Chalice is just ridiculously overabundant. Let's not hop on the anti-Gifts bandwagon too soon, you don't want to find yourself losing to crap.deck. You also have 4 Seal of Cleansings btw (little help, but still).

Seriously, you can side some extra hate. No reason maindecking 8. Also, you can't effectively put Chalice on 1 or 2. That shuts down too many of your own cards. Chalice is pretty niche.

The sideboard is kind of just thrown together


The sideboard is extremely important though.. I suggest running 3 or 4, even, Umezawa's Jitte. This is a far better answer to aggro than Crusade is (you'd be siding out your Null Rods anyway). It's also very good against burn if you can get a swing through. Thus, it makes Silver Knight less important.

Oxidize is the worst idea ever. You don't make your deck susceptible to Wastelands just to run Oxidize. Seal of Cleansing and Disenchant are better anyway. If you really want cheaper destruction, you should try Abolish.

Also, main deck the Samurai man. It's a sick creature even without its ability, which is the best ever. You need graveyard hate, whether you like it or not.

Rule of Law would also be a great sideboard option.

Lastly, you don't need both Chalice and Null Rod. Null Rod is the better option I'd say. Reactive and Proactive.

I think the biggest issue you guys have with Vial Fish is having to give up the Null Rod. Fish has absolutely no problem with artifact decks. I run 4 Fluxes and 4 Seal of Cleansing SB (see new decklist below). That's some sick artifact hate right there. Main deck there's 4 Chalice and if your meta demands it, you can always some run Kataki.

Another thing is you're all seriously underestimating Jitte. It's all Fish ever needed. Fish's gameplan is to cripple the opponent, but it's important that Fish can deal some reasonable damage meanwhile; your opponent's going to recover at some point, Null Rods or not.

Jitte also takes care of Welder and is Fish's only real answer against aggro. Let's not forget that guys, in any tournament you have a decent chance of running into a semi-decent aggro-ish deck or even "viable" decks like White Weenie.

That's not a big thing, but it is worth mentioning; random crap decks can seriously mess up your game plan.

Aether Vial. What a broken card. When I first read about Vial Fish I was very sceptical about it. I immediately accepted Jitte as a solid asset to the deck, but Vial? What the hell?

It allows you to run a mana-intensive creature base. Look at my creatures. Uncounterable permission. That's some crazy shit right there. It's great with Standstill (allowing you to play it, even if your opponent has board control). With Rootwater Thief it's great against Oath and Gifts. It's game-winning, actually.

Also, stop thinking about the mirror. Sure thing, Null Rod Fish has a very minor advantage there. But that match would mostly depend on luck. Vial Fish, regardless of Null Rods, has a stronger Standstill, a single Jitte swing would likely provide enough CA for a game win and game 2-3 I board out the Jittes or board in Seal of Cleansings.

Seriously, Null Rod is not a reason to stick to old Fish. My former Vial Fish build even had 4 Null Rods SB.

Anyway, the new and improved decklist:


Lands: 23

5 Island
4 Flooded Strands
4 Tundra
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Plains
1 Strip Mine

Creatures: 15

4 Meddling Mage
4 Stormscape Apprentice
4 Voidmage Prodigy
3 Ninja of the Deep Hours

Others: 22

4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
4 Aether Vial
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Umezawa's Jitte


Sideboard: 15

4 Energy Flux
4 Seal of Cleansing
3 Pithing Needle
3 Rootwater Thief
1 Swords to Plowshares


Let's go over the mist important decks:


Stax: MD: just the permission here. Tough 1st game, post-Sb should work: 4 Flux, 4 Seal of Cleansing, 3 Pithing Needle (Welder, Wasteland)

Oath: MD: both reactive (Apprentice, StP) and proactive (Jitte) (Factory + Jitte = no Oath activation). Post-SB: very good boarding here. 4 Seal of Cleansing, but more importantly 3 Rootwater Thief. Permission/Seal of Cleansing stall so I can swing with Thief and remove away. Mana intensive, sure. But I have Vials.

Gifts: MD: Apprentice, StP. Pretty much need to go for the storm kill. Chalice should prevent that, plus there's the uncounterable permission that takes care of that Burning Wish. Post-SB: Roowater Thief which is pretty much the game-winner.

Dragon: Easy. MD: StP (bye, permanents), permission. Post-SB: 4 Seal of Cleansing, another StP.

Slaver: I can take care of Welders; my creatures are uncounterable. Post-SB Seal of Cleansing + Pithing Needle.

Also, good against every mathup: Meddling Mage.

so do you actually play against white weenie, sligh, and beats? if so, go ahead and use chalice. But if you play it that regularly, you are probably using the wrong deck.

Aggro is general does appear rather often, yes. I think it's nice to have a deck that's not particularly good against the deck type, but can handle it.

Actually my buddy runs all that (not 100% sure on main deck Echoing) I'll Post the deck list he plays next time I see him.  But Its very simple, basiacally all 4 ofs.

Well when running 4 of all that I'd think you have to cut the staples, no?

For the shop aggro matchup, STP goes a long way.  And post side 3 to 4 Energyflux on the side.

Jitte MD, and then StP and Kataki SB go a pretty long way too.

And, although I've personally never really tested the vial build, It seems like a more narrow game than rod fish.  for example you have to play your vial before you chalice for 1.  And if you can't then your stuck with only 2 mana cost guys.

Not really. Vial is important in few match-ups. Sacing Vials to get that Chalice on 1 is often a viable strategy. You're far overrating the importance of Aether Vial in Vial Fish. The only reason the deck is named "Vial Fish" in the first place is because Vial is the most distinctive aspect that separates the deck from Null Rod Fish.



Also as far as rod fish rolling to chalice for 1, it basically doesnt have too much of a problem... but it obviously is a problem.  Its still got plenty of beats going on with mishrahs and meddlings.  but as you pointed out, its no walk in the park.


Well Vial Fish wouldn't be seriously damaged at all.

Definitely Swarm.

what aggro are you talking about that chalice stops? red green beats? definitely a must win matchup there.

null rod stops combo just as much as chalice does, if not better.


Beats is a terrible match-up for Fish. Terrible. Null Rod Fish has little chance against it. With Chalice and Jitte it's a walk through the park. So are Sligh and WW.

Null Rod stops combo better than Chalice? What combo kills turn 3 or slower (if they can start)? TPS only, which has Duress and FoW to take the Rods out before you got the chance to play them.

I'm not sure what meta game your prepairing for, but there isnt that much "Agro" out there.  The only aggro decks that seam to be doing well are Shop-Agro and FCG (wich is the deck that never dies).

Sligh, beats, WW.

 
Most difficult match-ups generally fall under drain combo, or Rit combo.  Niether of those decks run any creatures to speak of.  curiosity I think belong in R/U fish, but not really in any other build.  By it self, Curiosty doesnt do anything.  
- Both cards in that you need a creature in play to get any advantage out of either card
- Both also require an attacking creature to draw a card.
- Curiosty + 1/1 flyer = draw 1 card deal 1 dmg for 2 cards - hard to prevent (ie the creature has flying)
- Ninja + 1/1 flyer = draw 1 card, deal 2 dmg for 2 cards on turn2, then on later turns 3 draw 1 card and deal 3 dmg - easy to block the draw engine.
- Ninja'ing a blue creature also give you prime power for your FOW (pitching a flying man to pay FOW FTW!!)

Yeah. Ninja > Curiosity.



Combo Solutions
C/V:  chalice for 0 and 1 [side: arcane lab, tormods]
Rod: Null rod, possibly MD stifle [side: STP (for dragon), Orims chant and stifle (storm)]

My side has Stifle, STP and Null Rod ((I don't need my Vials/Jittes against combo). That's 4 big answers to combo.


1st turn chalice for 1 (agaist any shop deck)
C/V:  cry? hard cast all your creatures and spells (or run echoing truth)
Rod: main deck echoing truth

You sugges tNull Rod Fish to main deck Flying Men, STP and Stifle. A Chalice on 1 against such a deck would be far more painful than against Vial Fish. Vials are not that important. Only 4 cards, important against Control only.


Null Rod
C/V: cry.  sorry waterfront bouncer, null rod is not a creature
Rod: HA! [post side you have slots formed from siding out your null rods]

Pretty nasty, yes. Vial + Jitte. Vials gets sided out, I get 4 slots open for STP. I should take that matchup. (Any deck running Null Rod probably rolls over and dies to Jitte. If I can get mine out before the Rod, I win. If not, I have my StP's turning the tide).

Welders
C/V: Chalice for 1, waterfront bouncer [tormods crypt]
Rod: STP, maindeck bounce [disenchant for weld target removal]

An awfully polyvalent Null Rod Fish build you're thinking of. Might want to make a decklist first. StP, Stifle, Bounce, all MD..
Anyway, against Welder I have Bouncer, Chalice and (especially -- how could you not list this) Jitte. SB adds StP and Kataki.


Big creatures
C/V: Water front bouncer
Rod: STP, main deck echoing truth

Bouncer, race with Jitte. SB adds STP, Gilded Drake.

Mana useage
C/V: getting a break on creature mana means you have more utility mana (ie mana for thief, bouncer, and Factory)
Rod: Run smaller creatures, and less creatures with mana activated abilitys.  Less mana for utility BUT you can run alot more 1 mana cost stuff bc your not killing part of your curve with chalice

Fair enough. But you'll be crying your ass off against that Chalice on "1". I'll just be dissing my Vials to Bouncer, whilst kicking ass with the Jitte..

Win Speed
C/V: Less damaging creatures, more use outa Factory
Rod: Flying man beats + 4 ninjas adds up to a faster beat-stick win, less use from factory

4 Ninjas? How in the world are you going to get just 60 cards with 4 Ninja, Echoing Truth, STP and Stifle all MD?

Card Reliance
C/V: no 1 drops other than vial, creatures are geared to run smoothly off vial without vail deck becomes questionably good, chalice can only be droped for 1 on turn 2, without running full moxen.
Rod: little to no card reliance, all your cards have synergy but nothing relys too heavly on anything else.  Ninjas need 1 drops but thats about it.

The deck doesn't need Vial at all to run smoothly. It's only important against control. I board it out all the time.

A word on Standstill
C/V: with a vial on the board standstill is awsome, without vial... standstill is only so good.
Rod: even with flying man on the board and no Mishrahs or ninjas in hand. standstill is still a great play.

Only so good? What decks beats Fish under a Standstill? If I don't have a Vial, only Landstill does. I can drop the Standstill against every deck. 4 Factory, 4 Wasteland, 1 Strip Mine, 2 Ninja.  

A word on Meddling mage
C/V: Meddling mages can be reset with waterfront bouncer, and thief gives a more accurate card call for mage.
Rod: running 4 ninjas, and main deck bounce lets you rename mages (basically for free).  This lets you more frivously throw mages down naming Drain or Thirst, just on the knowledge of 1 Polluted in play (oops your playing TPS? ninja -> rename mage for dark rit or brainstorm).

Mage runs great in both decks, but Thief is better than any bounce for naming those cards. Vial gets it in uncountered, which is another awesome, anti-Drain tech advantage.  

new fish with ninja draws a lot less cards than old fish with curiosity. ninja doesnt have evasion.

Jitte grants more evasion than traditional Fish could ever dream of.

null rod beats control.

Not nearly as badly as Aether Vial and Umezawa's Jitte. Jitte and Vial don't go with Rod.

chalice of the void beats sligh.

Aggro and combo.


tough choice, you decide.

No need to get cocky. Anyway, you're right. It's an easy choice. Vial + Chalice + Jitte is better against control, aggro AND combo. (combo depends)


okay i'll decide for you: good players play control. if you want to beat good players play null rod.

Vial > Null Rod against control.

Also, curiosity allows you go give any creature you control the ability.  Sure it is a 2 for 1 loss if the creature gets popped, but more often then not you can draw more cards with it.

Curiosity is not Jitteable. That's a huge advantage right there.

First off why are you playing ninja in this list? You have no power or 1 drop creatures so you will never get ninja into play before turn three. Ninja also has bad synergy with all of your creatures. Personally I feel that ninja is a bad card in general in fish. I don't understand why fish players cut curiosity. Curiosity draws far more cards that ninja because its much easier to get into play than ninja, and doesnt have the drawback of bouncing your utility creature.


Ninja is better than Curiosity in that it's a threat on its own, Jitteable, and if your opponent has creature removal you still get to keep the creature you swapped Ninja for.

It's also great under a Standstill (good in mirror/landstill matchups), and just good draw in general.

Sure, I can only get it out turn 3, but I only run 2. I hardly ever have problems getting them in play, and if I do, I can pitch them to FoW.

second i absolutly hate aether vial and chalice. I know that fish players have turn away from null rod but i simply dont understand. chalice is a dead card after the first few turns, if you opponent plays a single mox before you drop it, you've got 4 dead cards in your deck/hand. all the aether vials you draw after the first is dead. if you dont play it turn one, its dead. fish plays such a low number of creatures that the card will sit in play useless for good period of the game.


Chalice isn't just good at "0". Aggro is absolutely raped by a Chalice on 1 or 2. And quite honestly, aggro can be a pain in the ass. Chalice at 0 owns combo (even if my opponent gets to start, there's a good chance he'll have a bunch of moxen still in the deck after his first turn).

Control doesn't hurt from Chalice at all (I'd hit myself harder at pretty much any number), but that's where Vial comes in. Sucks against combo, so-so against aggro (combat tricks can be very effective + important to have Vial if I want that Chalice at "2" (don't want to counter my own creatures)), ROCKS against control. Seriously, it's game-winning. Uncounterable Thief, Bouncer and Mage. What could you possibly want more? That trio rapes control so hard it's not even funny (bye, Colossus, Buring Wish, Mana Drain, ..). The problem is control usually counters those threats. With Vial, that's not an option.

Vial is also game against Landstill.


I was a loyal Null Rod fisherman myself not so long ago, and very sceptically I tried out Vial Fish with Jittes. The results stunned me. Jitte is an amazing card, fits Fish perfectly. Game against aggro, raises the clock against control, requires those extra storm counts against Tenrdils (might affect the perfect storm).

Chalice is so good against combo and aggro, it's not even funny. Null Rod can't even touch it in this regard. And you can still sideboard Null Rods against those artifact decks -- you won't be needing your Vials against combo any time soon.

I suggest you guys to just try out a basic build (mine would be ok :p) before you judge. You'll see: it works.

null rod is much better at stopping artifacts, it turns pentavus, mindslaver, and triskellion into a joke. And it stops artifact mana better than chalice could ever dream to. chalice doesnt even stop tinker because of the existance of sol ring, mana vault, and artifact lands.

It is better at stopping artifacts, but that's it. Chalice has so many more purposes.. I have my board to take care of artifacts (Null Rod, Kataki)

i am an avid promoter of 4 swords maindeck in fish. Most decks play one or two creatures as their kill condition. If you swords a collosus, you win. if you swords oath's creatures, you win. swords is also necisarry to take out welders and helps you in aggro matchups. With their being so many creatures in type one right now, and many decks playing a limited number of them as kill conditions, there is no reason not to play 4 swords.

I'll admit, I side my 3 StP's in suspiciously often. Game against Dragon, Oath (when resolved), Gifts (when resolved), can turn the side against aggro, ..

Still, I prefer it in the sideboard. Jitte takes care of a lot (trust me, it's better than StP in the average match-up). Bouncer takes care of the fatties (Colossus, Akroma).


Ninja is good, but only if your prepair for his arival.  Flying men is a "4 of" for sure if you want to run ninja of.  Not only is he a relativly unblockable turn 1 drop,  but after you ninja him out he becomes Force of will fodder.  I have a buddy who I play tested U/W fish alot with, and we decided that the ideal opening hand is land, land, FOW, Flyingmen, ninja.  That is the god hand.  with that you have a super solid opener.  it gives you first turn man, + Fow with ninja pitch.  And then turn 2 ninja with flying man pitch.   Very powerful.  In fact if you feal you'd like to run 6 flying men... you can go 4 flying men and 2 Grayscale Gharial (1/1 islandwalker from RAV).


I prefer utility creatures. I don't need to get my Ninja in turn 2. I don't need it turn 3 either. It's just draw, I don't care when I draw it. In the type 1 environment, and with 3 Jitte's and 4 Bouncers main deck, there are few situations were I can't get it in. I don't need to be fast about it.

Personally I would try to work in some main deck removal (as Zomar also suggested).  Be it Sword to plow, disenchant, or even chian of vapor, or echoing truth.  All are good choices, but if you are running vials then you need some null rod, or chalice for 1 control of your own. 


I have removal:  Thief, Bouncer, Jitte, permission.

If you stick to vials, this opens your mana up for more control spells so I would suggest that if your sticking to vial, there are better control cards than daze (esp becasue you have open mana).  Namely annul, disrupt, and even mana leak.  This obviously makes the good ol' chalice for 1 not so good, but I think daze is not great in a deck with vial.  I would say cut daze for mana leaks a/or Misdirrection. 


You'd be surprised how mana intensive Fish still is, even with Vials. If only to attack with that Factory. I like Daze for the surprise effect (running Leak would often require to leave my mana untapped while I have a Factory. I couldn't make it more obvious to my opponent that I can counter his spell by not attacking with Factory). Daze is also first turn permission, which can be quite useful.


As for the side, there are 2 cards that white fish LOVES on the side.  Sacred Ground is simply a 1 card SHUTDOWN for stax; and  Orims Chant (or Abbayance to a lesser extent) is the best card for your combo matchup.  Here is why.  say your playing against TPS, a good tps player will know you run stifle, so a good TPS player will know to duress before they cast tendrils.  This is your signal to drop the O-bomb.  Also a killer response to any draw 7 spell, or obviously a shutdown response to mind's desire.  the combo matchup is a rough one, because fish has a slow win, so you'll need all the help you can get.


Stax doesn't need Strips or Wastes + Crucible to kill me. I'd rather board in some Kataki and Null Rod against Stax (especially Kataki though). Kataki and Null Rod also take care of a bunch more. Sacred Ground is too niche IMO.

Orim's Chant is a good idea, really. But I have a lot against combo. Stifle (which is still better), Chalice, Null Rod, Kataki. I don't know, I'll think about it.

Lastly for the side, arcane lab and rule of law are great combo solutions as well (and if you decide to keep the vials, this is ultra-bonus for you).

They are indeed. But I find them to be a tad too slow. (fast enough against TPS, but I'll rely on my other hate for that matchup (Chalice, Rod, Kataki).


If you decide to run the null rod, possible graveyard hate includes Morning Tide (too bad its a sorcery...), Honor the Fallen (instant but very techy), and Grip of Amnesia (basically, it lets you counter a spell for sure).  Personally most decks you want graveyard hate for also get dramatically slowed to null rod so tormod's crypt and phyrexian furnace force you play dead cards one way or the other.  but those cards listed above are not dramatically better.  I would personally go Honor the fallen because it clears all the big badies that fish fears and welder loves (pents, trisks, and titans OH MY), and it clears world gorger dragon and squee. 


I don't know about graveyard hate. StP and Stifle are a lot better against dragon (bye, permanents) so that leaves Welder. Would I really want graveyard hate against that deck? Maybe of some recullable, permanent, non-artifact (Null Rod) kind (like Sacred Ground -- too bad it's green).

I don't even know why I'm running Crypts at all. Anti-synergetic with Chalice and Null Rod. Honor the Fallen seems the best at this point, but I'd rather save those slots for that extra Null Rod, or those Orim's Chants.

I've been playing Fish for a long time now. Recently I changed my build to play with Aether Vial and Chalice of the Void over the usual Null Rod.

Here's my build after quite a while of tuning (budget):


Creatures: 13

4 Meddling Mage
4 Waterfront Bouncer
3 Rootwater Thief
2 Ninja of the Deep Hours

Others: 23

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Standstill
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Aether Vial
3 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands: 24

6 Island
4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Strip Mine
1 Plains


I'm pretty sure about the main deck. It works great. The sideboard, however, could use some work:

3 Stifle
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Null Rod
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Gilded Drake

Specifically, Null Rod and Crypt seem like weak spots. Gilded Drake might be overkill (I have StP). I've been thinking of Serenity, but I don't think it deserves a spot. Btw I know Null Rod doesn't go with Vial, but I usually put the Vials in the SB against combo anyway.

I'd like to pack a good card against control. The problem is that there aren't many, if at all, specific anti-control cards (aggro and combo can be easily hated: Stifle, Chalice of the Void, Null Rod, ...). Any ideas on this aspect would be very nice.

Anyway, what do you think?

Instead of Tormod's Crypt maybe? It would work better with the Chalice..

Stifle is mostly for Tendrils though. It's also useful against Dragon and Oath, but that's just extra.

Yeah I knew about the Faeries. I copied this from another post I made at another forum, forgot to edit it. Still warants a spot though.

Bounce over Bouncer? Bouncer is uncounterable, recurrable bounce. It's also enchantable with Jitte. The discard can suck sometimes, but I do get some dead cards like double Jitte or late game Daze. Or just lands. I don't need a lot of them to function properly.

I've decided to take Gilded Drake over Kami, btw.

Lands: 24

4 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Tundra
1 Strip Mine
1 Plains
6 Island

Creatures: 17

4 Meddling Mage
4 Waterfront Bouncer
4 Cloud of Faeries
3 Rootwater Thief
2 Ninja of the Deep Hours

Others: 19

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Standstill
4 Aether Vial
3 Umezawa's Jitte


Sideboard:

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Stifle
2 Gilded Drake
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Kataki, War's Wage

I chose not to main deck Chalice because I see a lot of unpowered decks and it's not overly good if you can't start the game. That allows me to run 4 Cloud of Faeries, which are very important for the following reasons:

- They allow me to swing with Jitte a turn faster, which really is game breaking. I usually find that a single succesful hit with a Jitte wins me the game (it's hard to go downhill from there).
- They're perfect targets for Jitte and Ninja

You might disagree with Thief, but remember it's also a good Jitte/Ninja target, and its ability is golden against certain decks like Gifts.

I also chose to run 4 Daze as extra permission because I lack the speed that power brings me. I prefer it over Chalice because it's so more versatile (when it comes to counterable spells).


As for the sideboard:

- Chalice speaks for itself.

- Stifle is game against Dragon (bye, permanents), and it's also good against Tendrils. I'd also board it in against Oath and probably some other decks (PT Funk comes to mind).

- Drake is mostly against Oath. I feel Oath is a doable match-up (Bouncer, Thief), but my creatures are usually a turn too slow, which is where Drake comes in. It's also nice against Gifts.

- StP is against Dragon, Oath, aggro.

- Then there's Kataki. I prefer it over Flux, because it's faster, and uncounterable (not both at the same time, I know)
 
I don't think the added cost that they have to pay for Flux makes a big difference (as opposed to killing off the moxes, for example, it nullifies them). It's also better as it is a threat on its own, works with Jitte/Ninja, and the cost I have to pay less does make a pretty big difference for me. I get to keep the Vials/Jittes/Chalices with more ease. It does suck when the opponent has an Academy.

Most of you will probably say Landstill, but I would just like to know the percentage. Asume the builds are optimal (U/W Landstill, Gay/r Fish). Feel free to elaborate on your answer.

Basically, you're saying I'm a newb. [sarcasm]Thanks[/sarcasm]. The deck is type 1, what's the problem? Sorry if I sound rude.

OMG. Sorry people, wrong forum

I've been experiencing with Cherry Parfait a bit and noticed a lack of decent tutorage. Therefrom, these 2 decks were born. I'd like to know which build you prefer.

U/W:

Mana: 19

R Sol Ring
R Lotus Petal
R Chrome Mox
R Mox Diamond
11 Plains
2 Island
2 Tundra

Combo: 10

4 Land Tax
3 Scroll Rack
3 Zuran Orb

Utility: 11

3 Argivian Find
3 Tithe
3 Cunning Wish
R Mystical Tutor
R Enlghtened Tutor

Kill: 9

2 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Isochron Scepter
3 Orim's Chant

Control: 11

3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Back to Basics
1 Rule of Law
1 Humility
1 Moat
R Balance
1 Aura of Silence
1 Story Circle


Sideboard: 15

1 Hydroblast
1 Pyroblast
1 Long-Term Plans
1 Counterspell
1 Disenchant
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Orim's Chant
1 Argivian Find
1 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Abeyance
3 Seal of Cleansing

W/B/R:

Mana (18)

2 Swamp
1 Scrubland
1 Plateau
1 Mountain
1 Sol Ring (over Mana Vault)
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Diamond
1 Chrome Mox
9 Plains



Engine (9)
4 Land Tax
3 Scroll Rack
2 Zuran Orb

Lock (7)
4 Orim's Chant
3 Isochron Scepter

Kill (2)

2 Goblin Charbelcher

Utility and Tutor (9)
3 Argivian Find
3 Tithe
R Enlightened Tutor
R Vampiric Tutor
R Demonic Tutor

Control and Removal (15)
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Rule of Law
1 Yawgmoth's Will (think about it)
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Aura of Silence
1 Story Circle
1 The Abyss
1 Humility
1 Moat
1 Disenchant
1 Blood Moon
R Balance

Sideboard (15)
3 Abeyance
3 Abolish
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Blood Moon
1 Ivory Mask
1 Wrath of God
3 Seal of Cleansing