I believe the point Lordmayhem was getting at was that Dovescape wouldn't trigger at all when Jotun Grunt was played; Dovescape specifies that it triggers on noncreature spells, and Jotun Grunt is, in fact, a creature.

However, if you simply changed the example from Jotun Grunt to a noncreature spell with a CMC of 2, Harlequin's answer holds true.

I don't use Vista myself, so I have no idea if this works, but one of the MWS developers posted directions on installing in Vista here: http://www.magi-soft.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5906

Wouldn't Xantid Swarm be better?  Assuming the primary purpose of the REB's is to resolve your own threats rather than countering your opponents, Swarm can come down turn 1 before they get Drain mana on line and continue to be effective throughout the game, fits in more easily with your color scheme, and can be Wished for game 1.

I'm going to once again say that Echoing Truth is fantastic in this deck.  It clears up just about every threatening hoser your opponent can play (Chalice for 1, Tormod's Crypt before you drop something necessary into the grave, Root Maze, Ankh, etc), bounces your own Horns when you start to get the infinite Ringing going, screws with Oath, gets rid of opposing Colossuses, gives a Welder summoning sickness for an extra turn so they don't weld out your Crucible, and so on. 

Have you considered Echoing Truth?  In addition to preventing you from decking yourself with Horns (right now, the only thing I see is a single Gorilla Shaman), it's a maindeck answer to Chalice for 1, is strong against several decks (Oath, Dragon), and can let you replay all your Explorations for extra land drops in a pinch.

What about Darksteel Colossus?  Is it unnecessary?  You're already running the Tinker, and with Time Walk + Regrowth it's a single turn kill.

That Oath list that apparently won looks pretty sketchy.  Intuitions with no AK?  Best I can figure it was used as a tutor, but when he's not running Imperial Seal, I'd think that'd be better than at least one of them.  Only 2 Chalices seems like a mistake, because you want it first turn.  I won't deny the power of Choke, but is it really worth devoting 6 SB slots to 2 Chokes (I'm assuming the Cities are there to go with the Chokes)?  Spirit of the Night seems like a wasted board slot too, with 2 hasty beaters already maindecked.  Was Pentavus really that much of a concern?

Doubling Season?  Forgotten Ancient?  Monkey Cage?!  Cool points from me probably don't mean a whole lot, but this guy gets many of them.  I'd love to see a report on that one.

I don't see how Trisk is much better with regards to attacking.  The fact that it doesn't trample or fly means they're just going to chump block the Trisk with at least one spirit token.  At least with the Hydra, when you clear the way through to swing by pinging spirits, it still deals its full damage, rather than being a 3/3 (or 2/2 or 1/1)

I'm fairly certain that's wrong, Poly.  From SCG ask the judge:
Q: If I use Memory Jar several times in one turn (through the use of Goblin Welders), is it possible to stack the Jars' triggered effects in such a way that I keep one of the hands drawn from the Jar at the end of the turn instead of my original hand?

A: Yes. At end of turn, you'll control multiple abilities that trigger at the same time, so you can stack them in the order that you choose. Note that you can't look at the face-down cards, so you'll have to remember which pile is which.

Basically, you (assuming you're the one controlling the Jars) can keep whichever hand you want and give your opponent the corresponding hand from that Jar activation, but you have to do it without looking at the facedown cards.

[edit]: Jacob beat me to it.

Also, a follow up: If the situation is switched around so both players are using a Jar on the same turn, rather than one person using multiple Jars, you'll end up keeping whichever hand was set aside by the active player's Jar, correct?

Not that I feel particularly strongly one way or another here, but many of the counter arguments people are offering are ridiculous.

-"Tinker is just as much of a threat."
Wrong.  Tinker essentially gets you a 3 turn clock, doesn't give you insurmountable card advantage during those turns to protect it, and you can play an answer in the form of bounce, STP, etc at any point during those 3 turns.  Oh yeah, and if it gets countered, you're down a mana source.  If your opponent successfully resolves a Will, you'll be lucky to last 3 turns, and if you do you'll probably be fighting through several Ancestrals worth of card advantage, a couple of Time Walk turns, etc.

-"Will isn't good on its own, it needs other cards to be broken, and therefore shouldn't be banned."
This would be a great point... if you were only allowed to put one card in your deck.  It would also be a good point if Will was only broken with 1 or 2 specific restricted cards.  However, it's insane with pretty much anything that adds mana or says "draw" on it.

-"Removing Will would take us from a 2-color format to a 1-color format."
Possibly, but the other argument is that it might actually open up more colors.  Without the threat of a topdecked Will, players might feel more comfortable straying away from blue and the safety of Force of Will, making the format more open, rather than less.

-"You can hate it out."
Show me a card that you can't bring in hate against.  Wasteland exists, does that mean Tolarian Academy should be unrestricted (I know we're talking about banning, not restriction, but there's no other example of banning that I can provide since I started seriously playing T1)?

-"Banning it would hurt budget aggro players."
When was the last time Sui-Black was viable?  Even so, I think if you run a Sui v. Gifts match up, the Sui player is a lot better off when neither player has Will than when both do.

-"It doesn't come in foil."
Foils are goofy anyway! :-p

I also read through the SCG thread, so I could be mixing up some of the arguments, but I think most or all of these points were offered here as well.

Now that I think about it, I'd probably agree whole-heartedly with Steve (at least from what I've seen discussed here, I don't have premium access) if I hadn't just about finished up a semi-casual Witness/Oath build. 

Why not online?  What chance is there of a series of online tournaments (using MWS or Apprentice, whatever) working, with some sort of entry fee and some high-end T1 as prizes?  There are several reasons I believe this would be a good idea:

MWS (or apprentice) allows for unlimited proxying, and best of all, a card you don't own a physical copy of is just as clear and attractive as one you do.

It would provide a way to entice new players who are interested in trying out competitive T1, but aren't willing to drop hundreds if not thousands of dollars before they can even consider being able to compete.

Once those new players are hooked, it would also provide another means for them to work around the large entry barrier to physical T1, at least partially allowing them to substitute skill for their month's paycheck.
 
Finally, it seems like it would be far less expensive and stressful for the organizer and players alike.  No gas money, hotel rooms, renting out or providing a place to play, etc.  Just get everyone to their computers and into an IRC or AIM or whatever chat room and you're good to go.

Before flaming me, please note that I'm not suggesting replacing physical T1 completely with virtual T1.  Undoubtedly, I'd rather the social interaction of a real tournament than sitting on my ass in front of my computer screen for 6 hours.  There are also several issues that would need to be addressed such as judging and cheating (I believe I've heard of some backwash programs for Apprentice and possibly MWS that allow a player to cheat, but I honestly don't know enough about it to comment).  But would this be a viable way to supplement real tournaments and bring some new blood into T1?

[edit]: Eye speel gud.

I can think of almost no situation where I'd want to tutor for Sylvan Library, when Oath of Druids, Forbidden Orchard if you've already got the Oath, or Necropotence are already options.



The mana-fixing is negligible in a 2 color deck, and beyond that I think they're a lot slower at digging out what you need than the Tainted Pacts that you removed.



I, too, have added the 5th fetchland to go with the Scroll Racks that I added.  

I played with Mind Twist a bit, and it was occasionally very broken, but generally a sub-par Hymn to Tourach or a nice juicy Misdirection target.  

I think cutting any Duresses or Cabal Therapies is a major mistake.  

I can see the logic on Cabal Ritual, but it's the only card that actually adds mana when trying to play around a Trinisphere, helps to fuel turn 1 Necro or to combo out early before you get 3 permanent mana sources, and is very important if you get a small dump before hitting Witness.  They're also great with the Mind Twist that you're running.

Crop Rotation is a nice luxury, but I haven't been able to find the space for it.



In a nutshell, because winning now is better than winning 2 or 3 turns from now.

You're right, mistake on my part, I was thinking Tendrils and for some reason it came out as Will.

I've been testing with some Scroll Racks today as a sort of colorless Brainstorm alternative, and I've been loving them.  I also included the 5th fetch when I added the pair of Racks for added shuffling goodness.  Even when you're not stuck with a Witness, the Rack can often get you the Duress you need to feel comfortable dropping Oath, dump back useless/excess combo pieces such as needless Rituals or Yawgmoth's Will, provide protection from opposing Duresses (especially when you've got a Necro on the board), and so on.  I've also managed to fit an Akroma and SotN into the board, but haven't had a chance to test against Stax since then.  Changes to the original list:

MD:
-1 Unmask
-1 Night's Whisper
+2 Scroll Rack

SB:
-1 Ray of Revelation
-1 Chains of Mephistopheles
+2 Akroma/SotN

The MD changes are by no means permanent, I could be convinced to cut the second Unmask instead, or possibly even some Tainted Pacts which I tend to view as a necessary evil more than anything, and possibly add one more Scroll Rack.

Because it a) costs 2 more (including a green) to do or requires you to go off over 2 turns, b) is only slightly more consistent, c) lacks the ability to protect your combo with a flashbacked Cabal Therapy, and d) you lose on the spot if your opponent is holding a counter.

[edit]:  Err, I misread your post and thought you were referring to the Witness version, but many of the same points still hold true.

I'm inclined to agree with you on the Mana Crypt issue to some extent - I don't think it's the best choice for the slot.  Ideally, the fifth mox would be played instead.  I suppose a Lotus Petal would make a decent substitute for someone playing on a really tight budget, but I generally don't have a problem getting the green mana that I need, and having permanent mana sources to hopefully cast the Yawgmoth's Will next turn is fairly important.

I've given serious thought to adding blue, but moreso for Brainstorm so that drawing your Witness doesn't make it that much more difficult to go off.  I'm still not convinced that it's worth making the deck more vulnerable to Wastelands though.

Initially my thinking was that there are few match-ups that I'd rather have a Spirit of the Night in than either Platinum Angel or the combo route, but the more I think about it the more it might be a viable alternative against Stax.  It may even be worth finding room for a second creature as well.  If only one can fit, does the hardcast option with Spirit of the Night outweigh Akroma's ability to double as a blocker?

The lack of mainboard removal is annoying, but I can't see any way to fix it without painfully dilluting the deck, so the best option may be to just concede that you're going to lose game 1 against Stax and move on with it.

The fifth fetch may be worth while, I don't see it drastically effecting the deck one way or another.

@Ninja:
The odds of not flipping Yawgmoth's Will, Vampiric Tutor, or Demonic Tutor, or having one of the above in your hand are fairly low.  If all else fails, you pick up a Duress (followed with a Cabal Therapy from the grave after seeing their hand) to clear the way to combo off with Krosan Reclamation the next turn.

I believe mine is the build Kasuras was referring to.  I've been working on an article for SCG or somewhere, but I see no problem in posting the list at least in the mean time.

Suicide Oath
3 Swamp
2 Snow-Covered Swamp
2 Bayou
2 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Forbidden Orchard
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
1 Mana Crypt*
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
 
4 Oath of Druids
1 Eternal Witness
1 Krosan Reclamation
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Yawgmoth's Will

4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Unmask*
1 Pernicious Deed*
1 Necropotence
4 Night's Whisper
2 Tainted Pact
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

Current sideboard:
1 Platinum Angel
1 Gaea’s Blessing
1 Ray of Revelation
2 Defense Grid
3 Vendetta
3 Naturalize
4 Chains of Mephistopheles

The *'ed items are the most debatable slots.  Mana Crypt does have some advantages over the 5th Mox, but at least part of the reason I play it is to keep the deck to 5 proxies.  The Deed is sort of an MD catch-all answer for game 1 that replaced Mind Twist, which was randomly broken but often dead, but I'm not entirely sold on either one.  Unmasks are great for resolving first turn Oaths, but almost always seem to be the first card to get boarded out.

The deck has a miserable matchup against anything running Trinisphere, but otherwise I've had pretty positive results all around so far.

The chief advantage to the Rector build that I'm getting at first glance is it's ability to deal with Trinisphere by drawing into a bounce spell with Bargain, as well as having fit Brainstorms in.  

The Witness build, on the other hand, has 10 discard spells rather than 6, and is almost guaranteed to be able to flashback Cabal Therapy before trying to resolve a Will.  It also avoids the pitfall of having to hold onto Cabal Therapy until after you Oath.  There is also the backup plan with Krosan Reclamation if the Witness fails to reveal Yawgmoth's Will or Demonic Tutor or Vampiric Tutor.

Pardon my ignorance, but how does a Chalice for 1 completely kill this deck?  Granted, it's bothersome, shutting down Dark Ritual, Brainstorm, and the disruptive properties of Cabal Therapy, but you can still flashback the Therapy (saccing Rector), it will simply get countered.  Once you've got a Bargain on the table I would think you could get by without the mana from Rituals.  The only other concern is if it gives them time to win by paying the upkeep without Chain of Vapor, but if that's a major issue you can always run something along the lines of Rushing River or Echoing Truth instead.

-Dual lands, especially of the blue variety.  You may never need a Plateau, but a set of Volcanic Islands is handy to have on hand.
-Fetchlands, it may be that just one play set is enough.
-Restricted goodness.  Don't worry about getting 1 of every restricted card.  Odds are, you'll never need a Mind Over Matter or Dream Halls, but some cards, such as Demonic Tutor, Balance, Yawgmoth's Will, Tinker, and so on will fit into almost any deck of the appropriate color that you build.
-Artifact acceleration.  Even if you can't afford Moxen, cards like Sol Ring, Mana Crypt (if it's in your price range), etc are very useful to have on hand.
-Common/uncommon staples.  Shouldn't be too hard to get, but stuff like Brainstorm, Dark Ritual, Duress, etc as well as sideboard staples like Tormod's Crypt, Red/Blue Elemental Blasts, Naturalize/Disenchant and so forth are great to have.
-4 Force of Will, and to a lesser extent a few Misdirections.
-4 Wastelands, 1 Strip Mine
-Null Rods, although following some of the members forum discussions, these may become less necessary.
-Goblin Welders if you have any intention of playing Workshop-style decks

I'm sure I've left off a ton of stuff, but I thought I'd at least get started

The problem with that solution is that Dragon has infinite mana, but generally only before Laquatus hits play, afterwards it can't generate more (ok, maybe 3 or 4 more, but you get the idea).  Sure, I can declare that I want to generate 18 billion mana and it's a fairly safe assumption that somewhere in those 6 billion mills Gaea's Blessing will be the last card left.  However, unless it's within 6 mills out of 6 those billion, I'm going to have over 20 mana floating and burn myself to death at the end of the phase, before they draw themselves out.

But if you don't have a Recall or some other way to draw them out (i.e. you went with Laquatuss without realizing they had blessing), what's the proper resolution to decide what ends up in my library and what ends up in my grave if they simply pump all their mana into Laquatus?

I sent this in to the SCG ask the judge, but overcomplicated the question (and made several errors in the way I put it), and was basically told "uhh, in sanctioned play, you're screwed."  I know that Blessing is a fairly common answer to Laquatus (or was), and yet no one I talk to seems to know what happens :p

My opponent mills me a lot (1,000,000 times) with Laquatus.  I have a Gaea's Blessing in my library.  What happens?

I'm fairly certain a few months ago I saw a post by one of the resident rules gurus explaining an accepted simulation method to cut down on the actual number of millings necessary, but I've searched high and low and haven't found it.

Thanks!

If I have a [card]Horn of Greed[/card] in play and play a [card]Glacial Chasm[/card], do I get to draw before or after choosing which land to sacrifice to the Chasm?

If I play the Chasm, but can't sacrifice a land to it, do I still get to draw a card for Horn?

If I have a Chasm in hand and a [card]Fastbond[/card] in play (and have already used my 1 "normal" land drop), when I play the Chasm will I take 1 damage from the Fastbond, or will the Chasm prevent that damage?

Finally, can a player "respond" to the playing of a Chasm?  I know a land normally can't be responded to, and I assume the same holds true for the Chasm, but I wanted to make sure that the replacement effect didn't open up an opportunity.

Thanks!

I love this archtype and have been testing with it since I found out about Crucible.  I do have several suggestions, or at least discussion points, I'd like to bring up:

1) Have you considered Chain of Vapor?  I've been alternating between 1 and 2, and they're great.  They work around random hate (Blood Moon, Withered Wretch, Platinum Angel, Chalice, etc), can help to draw the game out until you draw into a ZOrb or Chasm, and are great to prevent you from decking yourself to Horns while going off.

2) I really feel that this deck needs at least a few counters.  Without any Duress, FoW, etc, even if you do "go off" there's no guarantee of being able to force everything through.  Granted, you do have an SB Xantid Swarm, but those are very fragile and require using one of your precious Living Wishes.

To the people bringing up lack of threshhold as an issue, it's really not a problem.  By the time you're ready to go off with a Barbarian Ring, you should have at least one Waste available, or even a Zuran Orb, which you can easily use to fill up your yard without much consequence once you've got the win locked up.

My power at the moment basically consists of 2 Mana Drains (however, I don't think I'd run any more than 2 anyway) and a Timetwister, so this list is reflective of that, but I thought I'd post it just to spark some ideas on how to fit in countermagic.

Lands:
4 Polluted Delta
6 Island
4 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Strip Mine
3 Wasteland
4 Tropical Island
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Glacial Chasm

Spells:
1 Sol Ring
4 Force of Will
1 Fastbond
1 Gush*
4 Horn of Greed
4 Exploration
4 Brainstorm
1 Zuran Orb
2 Chain of Vapor*
3 Crucible of Worlds
2 Daze*
2 Mana Drain
1 Trade Routes
1 Timetwister

Sideboard:
1 Wasteland
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Gaea's Blessing
3 Null Rod
1 Triskelion
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Xantid Swarm
1 Gorilla Shaman*
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Gilded Drake
2 Random slots

Cards which I'm particularly unsure on, or unsure on the number of them, have been marked with a *.  At the moment it's 61 cards, and I'm still trying to fit in a Crop Rotation and maybe a MD Gaea's Blessing.  However, like I said, I'm not asking for assistance with my particular list, just trying to throw out a different set up that might make it a little more resilient.

[edit]: Beacon dropped.  This was a holdover from when I was trying some other kill conditions that didn't win instantly.

I can't count the number of times I've had a 5+ minute argument on MWS over the legality of using a Wasteland on their duals.

Not too long ago, I was bored and joined a game titled "T1 no p9."  I FoW'ed something, at which point he promptly disconnected, because FoW is obviously a piece of the power 9.

My favorite MWS opponent of all time is still the one that told me I was going to hell because I played evil cards like demonic tutor and yawgmoth's will, while he played good cards like wrath of god.

I believe Crucible has some nice potential in T1, but from my testing so far, it works better in a Turboland frame, with FoW backup.  Plus, then you can call your deck TurboCow, which is just cool    With only one Fastbond (no explorations), I think you're going to have some trouble thoroughly locking them down consistently, especially if they're playing basics, giving them the opportunity to work out of the lock and you without the FoW's to stop it. After a bit more testing I'll hopefully get a preliminary list up on here for discussion.

While I disagree with many of his individual card evaluations, they really didn't bother me that much.  It's customary for there to be bombs in a set that everyone thought would be awesome, and vice versa, and in general I don't like to discount anything that has even a prayer until a while after the cards have become legal.  My major problem was his continuing insinuations that T1 players were stupid, and that he had all the answers -- such as replacing Goblin Welder with Bringer of the White Dawn.

My other thoughts can be viewed in the thread, if for some reason you have an uncontrollable urge to read them!

From a Type 1 player's perspective, I honestly got very little out of that article.  That said, I know that the average TMD user (ok, so there are some of us that still need to be told that sui-black isn't going to win even your local tournament) wasn't necessarily who the article was aimed at, and for the target audience, I think it's very valuable information.  And "Force of Will be damned - winning is so the best answer in Magic." was hilarious.

Nicely written.

My major problem with the Explorer is that if you play it on any turn other than the one which you're going off, it accelerates your opponent quite a bit, and even on your turn it allows the opponent the chance to, for example, grab 2 Islands for a drain.

Some cards for you to consider, though it depends heavily on your meta:

Null Rod - Stops artifact mana dead, as well as other pesky things like Nev's Disks, Memory Jars, etc.  The downside being that it also stops your own Powder Kegs, Sol Ring, and Mox.

[card]Tsabos Web[/card] - I love this card against any kind of Standstill based deck, or Bazaar, or things like Tog with lots of Wastes and Librarys, etc.  It may be ideal for you since you're not running many wastes already.  

[card]Root Maze[/card] - Good times all around, especially with Tsabo's Web.  Also hoses Dragon pretty well.

Naturalize or Oxidize might also be worth considering, acting as mana denial and/or a general hoser.

As far as creatures, how have the Terravores been working out for you?  I didn't like them without a full Waste/Strip compliment, and opted to go with a compliment of River Boas and Troll Ascetics instead, but it's your call.

You left off Darksteel Colossus, Psychatog, Ancient Hydra, etc.

I've been loving the Morphling/Spike Weaver/Colossus setup.  I've also found a boarded Avatar of Woe can be fun against decks like Tog if you can protect it long enough.