More vulnerable...HA think about it. You play 4 anyways. 4 wastes=4 duals. They can wipe out all you duals. At least you would have some left over. Plus if you so worried about it being vulnerable than dont run regular dual lands. Run basic. You get what Im saying. Obviously if your up against someone running crucibles its bad. But otherwise...

The only I could probably ever see is Fish and even so not really. My point though is that is where there is potential. Being able to play 8 of the same dual lands...seems like a dream. Its gotta open up some new roads for a deck. I wanna find out so I have a new deck to start up vintage again with. T2 is pretty boring (though actually playing kird apes is T2 sounds fun)

Im not sure if anyone else has notice, but Wizards has basically brought back the dual lands in Ravnica: City of Guilds. They are exact copies of dual lands, but they come into play tapped if you dont pay 2 life. They even are still considered island/swamp  etc... So how badly does everyone think this will affect Vintage. I mean come on 2 life isn't that bad for another dual land.

Maybe Ill do as some1 said earlier use this in a dream halls deck. Doesnt sound that good, but hey you never know.

The discussion is to discover new cards before they become big. Look at crucible it was so over looked, but as of now its one of the hottest cards.

Though it isnt out yet i recently have tested this card as a proxy in 4CC and it wasnt half bad. I figured 4CC could get enough mana to play it, yet it both helped me and hurt me bad within games. A problem I mainly run into is they get to untap then on my turn my spells get countered. I was thinking about testing it with cards like early frost to tap lands, but in the end thats too many cards that arent needed in the deck.

Sry bout no reports...I'll have a few matchups up soon.

The weird part is it doesnt specify anything about mana burn. So if some1 counters a darksteel collosus with a mana drain, and during their main phase (so the mana is in their pool) i cast time stop...it says remove damage from the stack but what about mana burn???

Why would you even consider it against a combo deck. Stifle takes care of that easily. This is just one of those cards that lets you laugh at your opponent if it resolves. Its all in fun.

Thanks I forgot to ask somebody to switch it

I fully agree doomsday is savage in dragon. And now since it has been unrestricted mono black dragon is tech. YOu go easily first turn doomday ditch everything but like reanimaters and maybe a lotus or sumthing. And in this case i think nights whispers is great because on first turn if u can get doomsday then whispers and draw into say a lotus and necromancy you can win first turn (though i would wait til their turn in responce to one of their spells.

I was in the moment

I mean i think its fun getting infinite turns

Even if it is for your opponent

Well all in all there can be a fun infinite turn mirror deck. I mean if you throw ne extra turn card (time walk, time stretch, etc) you get infinite turns. So tinker it out and you should have one of these in hand.

HAVE FUN

Actually now that I look at the card I believe it is stopped by both sphere of resistence and trinisphere. Both of them just mkae the spells cost more, which is needed to put a spell on the stack....now chalice of the void is different. This gets past is beacause chalice says counter the spells that cost XX. But like i always say wording is everything and some1 may twist the wordings.

Well there is Parfait that uses orims chant often.

But what I really want to know is doesn anybody see anything in the wording??? I believe the wording can be key to how this card can be used.

Lets say for a second that it is as great as it should be:

gets past trinisphere
gets past counters
and all that stuff

The fact is if its that good alot of people will play it correct???
And it just so happens wizards made a new rule on legends...to sum it up if one person has one in play and some1 else plays their own they both go straight to the grave. If everyone plays it what r the odds it will be successfully used when a deck can play a strip mine, 4 wastelands, and 4 of these. Thats 9 cards that kill it.


Otherwise I think wizards had a good concept, but it was unsuccessful because of Standard

When will wizards give us all these great cards??? I believe they should make a new expansion thats only Vintage legal that way all these cards they toned down for standard can be unleashed.

edit: and its funny how both u bob and jim (sextiger and TrixR4Kidz) said the exact same thing. Use the colorless mana on an ancestral recall and after someone corrected TrixR4Kidz...lol

I see where your coming from. I believe your on to something. Considering all the 0 cost creatures and affinity it could become a draw 7 for one green.

EDIT : If a Moderator could moved this to the proper forum I'd appreciate it.

There have been many attempts at a card to give a player an extra turn and almost all of them say you take an extra turn after this one or target player loses his or her next turn. This new card says neither.

Time Stop - 4UU
Instant
End of Turn. (Remove all spells and abilities on the stack from the game, including this card. The player whose turn it is discards down to his or her maximum hand size. Damage wears off, and "this turn" and "until end of turn" effect ends.)

At first glance this card may be confusing, but when broken down its fairly simple. Skip the rest of phases this turn and go to the end of turn.

Pros:
1. Instant speed allow this to be played during the upkeep
2. Forces a player to skip the rest of his turn
3. Removes spells from the game
3. Works as a sort of counterspell (A person plays Ancestral Recall, you respond with Time Stop that removes the card drawing from the game)

Cons:
1. Expensive casting cost
2. Unable to force a player to skip his or her untap step
3. Removes itself from the game

All in all the card could see some play in Vintage, but nothing competitive. I do believe though through the wording a person may find a way to minipulate the spell to do more than we think. Magic is all about the wording on cards.

BTW here is a link to a pic of the card my img button wont work: http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/mtgcom/fcpics/features/CHK84918_TimeStop.jpg

Just curious, but where did you get 1 life lose per turn from???

I agree how Reciprocate doesnt take out alot of staples of today. Wha thas been on my mind is all the lavamancers I see, but I completely agree. You can put it this way: Weak threats u wouldnt even mind having the opponent gain a couple life...and big huge creatures all ur doing is taking out a creature that has already did its damage to you. Your life differences r still the same. Either they gain or you lose, but it cant save you like swords you own creature.

My view on Kiki-Jiki is unlike sneak attack its easier to resuse. Sneak attack requires you to get the creature back to your hand.

And one red for 3 damage to a player would still be great. Plus with the unrestricting of Fork earlier today id like to see strict burn decks for fun again lol.

But Boseiju...come on i agree with you how there are downsides to it, but to have the sense or security knowing that your spell will hit. Also another way to use it is if you play it first turn...you know your opponent will strip it as soon as they can. Just the threat of it makes them use up their wasteland or strip mine.

Mirrodin Block brought to Vintage some great cards. Some great examples are: Crucible of Worlds, Skullclamp, Chrome Mox, Glimmervoid, Sundering Titan, Trinisphere, Thirst for Knowledge, Platinum Angel, Chalice of the Void as well as many others. But what does the new upcoming set Champions of Kamigawa have in store for us???

Recently I've been looking over many spoilers on the internet for cards to watch for in Vintage. MTGNews.com has compiled a great new spoiler and there has been a few cards I see being tested soon in Vintage.

Reciprocate - W
Instant
Remove from the game target creature that dealt damage to you this turn.

This card seems to possibly be a remake of the classic Swords to Plowshares. Of course the card had to be changed for the Standard environment, but i can see it being fooled around with in Vintage. Its just as cheap, doesnt give the opponent more life, and it still removes the threat from the game. Unfortunately the fact that the creature must deal damage to you can be a huge disadvantage.

Kiki-Jiki Mirror Breaker - 2RRR
Legendary Creature - Goblin Shaman
Haste
T: Put a creature token into play that's a copy of target nonlegendary creature you control. That creature token has haste. Sacrifice it at end of turn.

This is another one of Wizards attempts at creature reproduction. Though its cost is a bit high, especially 3 colored mana, Vintage players know that in this format there are many alternate ways to play cards. This card has combo written all over it. Creatures with comes into play abilities come to mind.

_____ - R
Instant
_____ deals 3 damage to _____

Not much is known about this card at the moment, but what is known makes it a card to look into. Three damage for one mana is great and for it to be an instant I can see this card being played. What is troubling though is the closest thing to lightning bolt (3 damage to creature or player for one red mana) was Incinerate that costs 1 colorless more. This leads me to believe that the spell doesnt give the player a choice of targets.

Boseiju, Who Shelters All
Legendary Land
Boseiju, Who Shelters All comes into play tapped.
Pay 2 life, T: Add 1 to your mana pool. If that mana is spent on an instant or sorcery spell, that spell can't be countered by spells or abilities.

In a world of counters Vintage players have tried to avoid having their spells countered. The most recent card for this was Last Word which turned out to be too expensive to play and usless in counter wars using the stack. The next idea was creature abilities that counter as in voidmage prodigy that is played in U/R Fish. It worked fine but u needed to successfully play the creature and have more mana to use its ability so in the end it was expensive itself. This is a land that protects ur spells. The downsides are that it is a non basic land (strip mine, wastelands), it comes into play tapped, and u must pay 2 life each time, but in the end it turns out pretty good. Its a land therefore it can't be countered and its reusable. I feel 2 life is worth it to have ur spell resolve. Its main problem is alot of good cards today dont use colorless mana, especially cantrips. Ancestral Recall and Brainstorms are good examples.

These are just a few cards cards from the new set and the spoiler itself has very few cards, but i hope these will help everyone discover cards before they become hard to get.

Hey Cross u didnt by chance have a mirror match first round did u???

That was me and I must say firewalker pwned me.

I mean third game I had complete control wasteing most things and getting in a fair amount of damage, but when firewalker hit that was it. Firewalker took out alot of my stuff and to make matters worse...next turn another firewalker.

In a mirror match if u get firewalker out ur in control, but if u get 2 out....U WIN its as simple as that!!!

I suppose u consider me the 2nd scrub...EH????

I agree u did get screwed so I looked into the matter and came up with these new rulings as of August 19, 2004:

-A match loss is now given as a penalty for errors in a decklist.

-Decklist penalties should generally be given at the start of the round after which they were found, to avoid one penalty having more weight than another.

-However, if a decklist error is discovered during play (rather than through reviewing a decklist), the penalty should be applied immediately.

-Similarly, a situation brought to the attention of the judge during a round should generally result in a penalty being applied immediately, if possible.

Also to make sure i got the correct rulings (even though i got them off wizards.com) I went to the closest judge located in Lenox, MA (DONT EVER TRUST HIM). I believe he is a level 3 judge and he agreed with these current rulings.

So basically u did get screwed outta a mox. Im not sure if u stayed long enough but the final decision for prizes was a friend of the two agreed to buy the ruby and abyss and split the money between the two.

And no matter what people say with or without a good sb, I believe U/R Fish loses against alot of decks nowadays

btw:I played fish at this tourney

edit:According to these rulings though there wasnt really anything u could do if ur gonna follow DCI floor rules

Heres the thing...reading the name of the post i suspected a new player made or netdecked this deck.

Now tell me, WHY CANT I BE ONE OF THESE SCRUBS. If and when a new player can afford the 4C decks above then this game has provided me with nothing over the past years. Hell I have to go with fish cuz i cant afford the cards for others. Unless the person is playin 12 proxy they will be spending at least 300 for a couple drains to make 10 proxy.

This is irrelevant spam. Don't do it again.

-Jacob

I was actually very tempted to play my grow deck with different colors. As it is now its G/R/U, but i think black would speed up card draw some more and perhaps white may work for things like swords and my biggest secret tech ever balance.