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1  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Cockatrice - intended as successor to MWS on: May 03, 2010, 10:54:26 pm
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3) Step buttons
2) The 'end my turn' bind
These two are actually supposed to be the same. It would be nice if you could press some F key to move to the end-of-turn step, indicating to your opponent that you're done.

So when you click the end step button it says 'end my turn' in the text box? I like that Smile

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I'm not sure I really understand this.
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On a side note, if there's an adequate snap to grid feature, in my experience almost everyone prefers to align their cards horizontally.
Let me try to explain. The table is divided into four rows with a theoretically unlimited width. Although you can use them for pretty much anything, their intended purpose is:
1) lands
2) non-land, non-creature permanents
3) spells
4) creatures.
Whenever you have the game place a card from your hand automatically on the table, it will choose the leftmost free spot in the respective row (the screenshot you referred to was slightly outdated). This fills up the table at some point, so it has to grow horizontally. However, it never grows or shrinks vertically (it could be allowed to shrink if I were to impose my playstyle on the users, but maybe they want to use two rows for lands or whatever). Because of that, the zoom factor of the table (=> recognizability of cards) depends almost solely on the vertical size of the area where it is displayed. Usually, it depends neither on the number of cards on the table nor on whatever space is wasted on the left or right side of the screen.
You might notice that I borrow a lot of ideas from MTGO, though some of them are not sensible without the program knowing anything about the game. I find their solutions to these problems to be very good, though.

I'll just have to try it.

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Binding text is a great idea, but you should already be using the F keys for game functions like start new game.
F2 -> concede
F3 -> view library
F4 -> view graveyard
F5 and up -> text messages
I think we need to change these so that all phases are accessible via F keys. As soon as 'end my turn', 'move to attack' and so on is done via change of phases, we don't need so many text messages any longer, so they can be bound to something like Alt+number or Ctrl+number.

There are 13 steps so that could be a bit awkward. What would probably be better is to bind maybe the four most useful phases to shift + number keys and make tab the 'next phase' button.

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It eats up space in the history log. Scrolling up is used all the time... or it would be if it weren't so torturous (I suggest a way of opening the history in a text file). Ironically I'm a lot more likely to be looking through the history if I have a rules argument than I am to need the oracle text, especially since recent cards are disproportionately represented in games.
You're right about this: I'm just not used to playing against strangers on MWS. I've almost never had a rules argument in a Cockatrice game.
I think it won't hurt making the behaviour of the card display zone configurable so you could hide the oracle stuff if you know it anyway. We could also do something like the middle-click feature in MTGO (it displays an enlarged version of the card where your mouse cursor is). Then you could be even given the option to hide the card display altogether, since what do you need the picture for?

I like the idea of just eliminating the card display panel and reducing it to pure mouse overs. Then the history could fill the entire right side of the screen except a long button at the top labeled 'oracle text' which would expand downwards when clicked. Very professional!

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By the way, I'm sorry that this is quite a theoretical discussion. Although thinking about these topics is very valuable, there's really not much else I can do at the moment because of the lack of spare time Sad

My prayers would come true if another magic program got a really smooth, sharp interface... MWS's instability and shareware nagging drive me nuts.
2  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Cockatrice - intended as successor to MWS on: April 30, 2010, 01:12:38 pm
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where are the binds? These speed up play considerably by letting you communicate without taking your hand off the mouse
Do you mean text messages bound to keys/key combinations? They can be configured (though I have to admit that this needs some improvement).

Nope, I mean buttons (although keyboard shortcuts are great as long as they're not made necessary). Anecdotally, the most used elements of the game window are:

1) The cards in hand/on the board
3) Step buttons
2) The 'end my turn' bind
3) Portrait, for counting life up and down
4) Opening your library

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Why are the mana counters disproportionately favored?
So that you can read the numbers well. Smile
You have to understand that horizontal space is not an issue as the size of the table is usually determined only by the height of the window, barring a very unusual aspect ratio or a lot of cards on the table (making it grow horizontally). So we don't need to feel bad when we "waste" space with big mana counters as long as that space isn't above or below the table.

I'm not sure I really understand this. When I get home in a few days I'll try the program out and have some more feedback there... the philosophy seems suspect there. There is always something useful you can do with excess, even if it's just framing important elements in white space.

On a side note, if there's an adequate snap to grid feature, in my experience almost everyone prefers to align their cards horizontally.

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Why are the extremely useful step buttons not given a central position?
As explained in the last paragraph, that would be a waste of space. However, since I've had this discussion before multiple times, I will make it configurable so that you can all have your gigantic black space on both sides of the table and your unrecognizable, fingernail-sized cards like they have them in MWS.
Apart from that, I would really like intuitive key bindings for the phase buttons. I recognize that moving the mouse pointer there every time you want to change phases is too much of an effort. I think I might bind them to the F-keys (obviously changing the bindings for text messages), or Alt+number, or something like that.

Binding text is a great idea, but you should already be using the F keys for game functions like start new game. Having the steps in the middle is also important because they're shortcuts to common actions, ie drawing with the draw step button or untapping with the untap step button.

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- Render mode. This displays the card using a combination of the card skin, oracle text and the partial scan image file associated with the card, if any.
- Scan mode. This displays the image file associated with the card, if any. For cards with an image file, this is the default.
While I appreciate your thinking about the topic and explaining your ideas, I don't quite understand what the benefit of this particular idea would be. Wouldn't the interface have the same features that it has now, just with more mouse clicks necessary? I quite like hovering over a card and immediately seeing its attributes without having to change the mode of the display zone first... You see, there is again no space wasted as you wouldn't have anything else to fill it with, would you? Please correct me if I misunderstood what you were saying.

It eats up space in the history log. Scrolling up is used all the time... or it would be if it weren't so torturous (I suggest a way of opening the history in a text file). Ironically I'm a lot more likely to be looking through the history if I have a rules argument than I am to need the oracle text, especially since recent cards are disproportionately represented in games.
3  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Cockatrice - intended as successor to MWS on: April 29, 2010, 08:06:06 pm
Thanks for your reply.
Concerning the two biggest boxes, I can see why you think they are a waste of space. This space is not really wasted because it is used up as the table grows, but I hope we can find a nicer looking solution for that as I've heard that argument a lot now.
Why don't you like the card information box on the right? You have to keep in mind that the oracle text of a card is not necessarily equal to the one printed on the card, so the picture alone is not enough.
The rest of the boxes I can get behind, but I don't really know what to fill that space with. Any suggestions are welcome.

Well, my main priority is not looks, but these kind of things quickly add up to create usability issues. That card box is actually the least of my issues (for example, where are the binds? These speed up play considerably by letting you communicate without taking your hand off the mouse. Why are the mana counters disproportionately favored? Why are the extremely useful step buttons not given a central position? etc etc)

I did consider the oracle text issue before boxing that out and thought of a few ways you could handle it. Here's my favorite solution:


Card Display Panel

Description
This displays the image of the last card moused over. It is surrounded by a gray bevel and has two modes:

- Render mode. This displays the card using a combination of the card skin, oracle text and the partial scan image file associated with the card, if any.
- Scan mode. This displays the image file associated with the card, if any. For cards with an image file, this is the default.

Mockups
Default:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/UniversalSnip/CardDisplayPanelScanMode1.jpg
Moused over:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/UniversalSnip/CardDisplayPanelScanModeMousedOver.jpg

Behaviour
Mousing over the panel turns the beveling red, indicating this element is clickable. Clicking it toggles the display between render mode and scan mode.

Tooltips
"Click for oracle text" when in scan mode.
"Click for card scan" when in render mode.

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FWIW, I consider dead space to be a minor issue (and would call it a layout issue instead).

When I heard the word interface, I there were flaws which impeded effective communication between the player and the program. Stuff like excessive confirmation dialog, or similar issues. Basically, anything that would require the player to put unnecessary effort into a given action.

I haven't tried Cockatrice and therefore won't comment on it in specific. As a general rule though, I care more about ease of use. If the layout problem were something like say, putting the library/graveyard on the opposite side of the chat window, I would feel it was a major concern. A few square cm of blank corner space, not so much.

These are not separate issues.
4  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Cockatrice - intended as successor to MWS on: April 28, 2010, 09:31:13 pm
Would you be so kind as to explain what makes our interface awful, in your opinion? You see, we can't fix what we don't know is broken.
Again, I'm sorry for the currently very slow development. I hope there will be more time soon.

With the caveat that I'm judging just on screenshots, I'd say it's because it's because you don't have somebody really interested in interfaces in charge of them Razz. But that's the root problem. Here's a specific example:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/UniversalSnip/cockatriceplayscreen.jpg

everything I boxed out is wasted space for one reason or another.
5  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Cockatrice - intended as successor to MWS on: April 27, 2010, 06:30:29 pm
For me the major concerns in a free magic program are the interface and stability, in that order.

MWS: Good interface, awful stability
OCTGN: Awful interface, good stability
This: Awful interface, ??? stability

Until I get a program I consider usable I'm just gonna have to stick with mws.
6  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: [Premium Article] The Ichorid Blitz on: May 03, 2007, 01:22:48 pm
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I've also seen some really terrible Ichorid players who were just so incompetent they threw awa the match.

You'd have to actively be trying to throw the match with the deck once somebody showed you the timing rules for all the cards. I have a hard time imagining any Ichorid player being quite bad enough to throw matches away.

Considering I can imagine the average ptq player punting three in a row with this, and considering the average vintage player is as bad or worse than that in my experience...

Mechanically, this deck is a pain in the ass because you have to stay on top of so many different zones at once. It's hardly impossible, but an unfocused player could implode in g3 on that basis alone.
7  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: New Card Discussion: Lotus Bloom on: August 27, 2006, 07:57:55 pm
This isn't good in any format. You can't run it as a normal mana source so it takes up spell slots, it's a mulligan for two turns after you rip it, etc etc. Coming at it from the 'always wrong' (thanks...) perspective of a non-t1 player, if you're going to reshape for a lotus, may I suggest black lotus? Or just playing more rituals like good decks do?

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Sac Black Lotus for three. Play Reshape, sacrificing Mox, Crypt or Vault for Bloom. Sacrifice Bloom for three. Play Ritual. If your hand is empty, play Infernal Tutor getting Yawg Will. Replay Lotus, Mox/Crypt/Vault, Reshape getting another Bloom, Ritual, Infernal Tutor for Tendrils or even Minds Desire, for win, etc...

Nice! Unfortunately LED would have been just as good here except without the 'if your hand is empty' rider.

Lotus Bloom is scrub bait. A skilltester. It's always worse than other options, and if there isn't anything better, you're playing the wrong deck, and if you aren't playing the wrong deck, what format is this, exactly? If I pulled a 0 cost artifact in mental magic I might run lotus bloom out... I mean, it's that or ornithopter.
8  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: Sideboarding In Type 1 on: July 22, 2006, 02:27:02 pm
I can tell you from experience the rest of the magic players on the planet have the same problems. By and large they do not have sideboards, test without sideboards, do not consider the opponent's sideboards, do not have detailed boarding plans (or can't remember them), sideboard into cards instead of strategies (this is huge), and waste space with terrible wishboards.

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Sideboarding is different for type 1 then in any of the other formats so its hard to really compare them. Almost every type 1 deck that is control runs the same 38-42 must have control cards (brainstorm, FoW, Drain, power, etc.) and then the remaining 18 or so cards define the deck. This makes sideboarding a true challenge because of the following questions that 1 must account for:

I completely disagree. All these issues exist in other formats, and to the same degree... but in other formats the deck core varies more widely than it does in type one. That doesn't mean it isn't as large or as essential.
9  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: "go big or go home" Burning Slaver; Decklist on: July 20, 2006, 02:50:46 am
[/standard 'not a vintage player' caveat]

I was thinking the same thing as FlamingCloud. I see t1 lists with the single restricted burning and it seems to me vintage players don't understand just how much they're giving up by running it. Unless you overload on randomness (Eye of Nowhere much?) it's not going to get you relevent plays that, say, imperial seal wouldn't. If you do, your post-board games are significantly cut into. Even with four the majority of wishboards (not all) are bad for this reason. It isn't like seal is even much worse in topdeck mode... you can't afford to sideboard your real breakers anyway.

If you take the 'everybody gets one game of brokenness per match' literally you are going to play more x-1 matches than you would in other formats anyway, thus increasing the value of your board.

I don't "not like" burning wish in CS, I just think this whole change 2-3 cards and call the deck something different is getting out of hand.

Er, that was a typo. I meant rureddy31. My mistake.
10  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: "go big or go home" Burning Slaver; Decklist on: July 19, 2006, 11:06:23 pm
[/standard 'not a vintage player' caveat]

I was thinking the same thing as rureddy31. I see t1 lists with the single restricted burning and it seems to me vintage players don't understand just how much they're giving up by running it. Unless you overload on randomness (Eye of Nowhere much?) it's not going to get you relevent plays that, say, imperial seal wouldn't. If you do, your post-board games are significantly cut into. Even with four the majority of wishboards (not all) are bad for this reason. It isn't like seal is even much worse in topdeck mode... you can't afford to sideboard your real breakers anyway.

If you take the 'everybody gets one game of brokenness per match' literally you are going to play more x-1 matches than you would in other formats anyway, thus increasing the value of your board.
11  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: Staxless Stax...the next evolution of Workshop decks? on: July 17, 2006, 09:19:25 pm
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Top is never worse in this deck than a brainstorm(if you get just one use out of it before they bring down Null Rod) but at best assures that your draws will always be superb. The one problem, pointed out by Keith Johnson who played the deck, is that occasionally you get a glut of bad cards on top.

This is exactly why you shouldn't be playing top unless you dramatically alter the build. With sufficient recharges top is an absolutely ridiculus card, verging on busted. I don't doubt for a second type one players should be slinging this thing around constantly, but I've played it a lot in multiple formats and it's really, really, really bad without shuffles.

- it keeps you from running four. This is a big deal... in a shuffle heavy deck you want to see top so so badly. Top is pretty much always better than the weakest card in your deck because it digs up multiples of the stronger ones and gives you a perfect manabase to cast them. If you draw > 1 tops that's also fine, because you can turn the redundant copy into a straight up impulse for three. Without shuffles they're just going to sit on the board sucking instead of being real action cards.

- Top doesn't actually fix bad draws without shuffles. You can't cherry pick the best of three and then shuffle the other two into irrelevence. Instead you're stuck with cards you don't want, and why run top if it isn't going to turn trash into gold like it does in other decks?

- Combo tings with welder and so on don't justify suboptimal slots. Know what else is good with welder? Everything.
12  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: "go big or go home" Burning Slaver; Decklist on: July 10, 2006, 06:15:46 pm
<---- Not a vintage player.

It seems like you're approaching welder as a disruption spell.
13  Eternal Formats / Global Vintage Tournament Reports and Results / Re: Scrubs can have fun too! - A Richmond Report on: March 25, 2006, 12:58:11 am
Quote from: UniversalSnip
Quote from: Reb-
I proceed to blow him out games two and three; one particularly amusing part was when, at one point, he had four lands, Phyrexian Negator, and True Believer on the table.  I untap, fetch an Underground Sea, cast Massacre, Tinker up Triskelion, and mash his Negator to reduce his board to a single Scrubland.

Not to be holier than thou, but in that case you both played terribly . You failed to shoot negator with one counter at a time, and he failed to punish you by just sacrificing negator to the first one.

Not to be holier than thou, but Reb- may have played sloppily, but it was clearly the correct play, considering the result. Shooting it one at a time would likely have resulted in his opponent still having four lands. Tricking your opponent into making poor plays, intentional or not, is solely the fault of your opponent. Sometimes assuming your opponent will play poorly, if there is reasonable evidence to suggest that he will,  should alter your own decisions.

During the draft, Randy B. was telling us about how his opponent knew that he had a Hurkyl's Recall from a previous Duress and, instead of developing his board, Randy passed the turn, assuming his opponent would go for the FlameVault kill that turn. He did, Randy Hurkyled, and won because of it.

With all due respect,

1) An embarassingly high proportion of the time, the wrong play wins you the game. The correct play is the one that gives you highest probability of getting the win.

2) If he was already being "blown out" as the report suggests, it seems unlikely Reb- would have lost the game in any case. He is not describing a deck that will realistically beat a developed slaver postion with a two counter trike. Going for a stylish but inferior win indicates disrespect for the possiblity of losing, a crucial mental error.

3) In all probability, Reb- just didn't consider the interaction. Not a problem, not a diss on Reb-. Nobody is perfect.

4) The randy example isn't related to the question in hand at all. In that case, if Randy tapped out he risked losing on the spot. "Leave mana open or die" isn't all the same as a win-more play.

5) There are a million ways it could go wrong. What if the opponent just sacs negator first? What if, in his slow pondering, he picks up each permanent and puts it in the graveyard seperately? You'd have to correct him on every perm past the negator or resign yourself to being the svg cheatz. What if he rips darkblast and you rip welders? Bet that 3/3 would have been handy now. etc
14  Eternal Formats / Global Vintage Tournament Reports and Results / Re: Scrubs can have fun too! - A Richmond Report on: March 23, 2006, 05:49:59 pm
I proceed to blow him out games two and three; one particularly amusing part was when, at one point, he had four lands, Phyrexian Negator, and True Believer on the table.  I untap, fetch an Underground Sea, cast Massacre, Tinker up Triskelion, and mash his Negator to reduce his board to a single Scrubland.

Not to be holier than thou, but in that case you both played terribly Confused. You failed to shoot negator with one counter at a time, and he failed to punish you by just sacrificing negator to the first one.
15  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: Ichorid on: January 30, 2006, 01:25:06 pm
I question your Oath opponent.  I fail to see how your deck witha  whopping 4 disruption spells were beating oath.  I say this from actually playing Oath vs. Bazaar based Dredge decks and having Oath own up until Bazaar added several maindeck bounce spells specifically to deal with the matchup.

"my oath opponent" was me. Frankly there isn't a lot of playskill to naming oath with therapy and then winning on either side of the table.

I cannot stress enough how powerful therapy is in this deck. Every game I resolved it against oath (EDIT: now that I think about, against a couple of decks) I won. Every game I didn't I lost. It was that simple.

I just happened to therapy a lot, especially when I started mullying for it. So much I only lost one game EDIT: out of six.

If oath did indeed turn out to be a difficult matchup (and it might. I may have just gotten lucky - it happens) it wouldn't remain so with a little help from ray of revelation.

Ok, one more EDIT: Also, if you're adding echo or whatever to the md of ichorid you don't understand the deck. At all.
16  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: Ichorid on: January 30, 2006, 01:02:27 pm
@running brainstorm: damn right.

@forcefieldyou: Side in needle and pray. If rod/chalice make it md that would be some good vs crypt as well.

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I'm amazed it took this long to get a thread on this topic (you t1 players have an INCREDIBLY slow rate of adoption.)

Maybe it's because people are working on lists that aren't as terrible as the one you just posted:

Well I'm glad this thread got someone to post one *for the first time* :rolleyes:.

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Psychatog is too expensive at 1UB, since you want to Bazaar asap. And Tog isn't faster than multiple hasted 3/1's

Heh, in about five games I've only cast tog once, and that was off a will with 50ish cards in my graveyard.
Crop Rotation is a no-brainer

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At least 1 Life from the Loam should be in there, and probably an Entomb

I can't imagine wanting either of those. You don't need lands once you're going and recurring bazaar is win more.

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Putrid Imp is debatle at least, does the fact that it is a black body really make it better than Careful Study? Dont think so

Huh?

That's like saying careful study is better than wild mongrel. You have to use the discard multiple times. Study will screw you.

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Krokikan Horror is amazing in this deck, sharing synergy with multiple cards.

That sounds good if you have the mana. Half the time you won't, mind you.

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To back up Ichorid you should be running Ashen Ghoul, which is maybe even better than Ichorid.

Good, but again, costs mana. Mana costs = bad. You should be able to kill your opponent with nothing but bazaar or imp out. I'm not saying it shouldn't be in here, but it's not going to get ichorid out of the deck.

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You should be running much more disruption, like Duress and Chalice/Null Rod.

Works for me.

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I don't think Windfall and Wheel belong, since you cant go broken off them, where any Combo deck, but even Control-Combo deck can just win off the refreshed hand.

Oh, you can go broken off them. I beg you to try these, they're MUCH better than they look.

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2 Bayou
4 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
0-3 Other Fetch/Basics
1 Strip Mine <---- Cute but bad
4 Bazaar of Baghdad

1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
0 Sol Ring (has no use at all) <---- Fair enough

Than a choice between either Null Rod/Chalice and more lands or off-coloured moxes

0-1 Stinkweep Imp
4 Grave Troll (6>5), you want one a.s.a.p. <---- Wrong. The black body matters ENORMOUSLY
0-2 Zombie Infestation (I dont really think these are neccesairry, and rarely used them in testing) <---- I agree
4 Ichorid
4 Ashen Ghoul
4 Krovikan Horror <---- Four? Not a chance
0-3 Squee (depending on other card choices) <---- Squee is awful in here

3-4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy (the absolute bomb of this deck, would run 8 if possible) <---- god yes. as a rule if you resolve this you win. If you don't, well, pray.

2-3 Careful Study <---- Also no
0-x Brainstorm, this is never a bad card ,but the deck is pretty tight. <---- Much better than study. Should find room for it
0-2 Deep Analysis (This cards becomes much better with more off-coloured moxes) <---- I think two. Three is definately too much

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Vamp Tutor
0-1 Imperial Seal
0-1 Entomb <---- bad. You would only use this if you had a discard outlet but couldn't find a dredge card, yet you haven't maxed stinky
1 Demonic Tutor
0-1 Yawgmoth's Will (I rarely used it, but still: it's Will)
1 Crop Rotation <---- very good addition
1-2 Life from the Loam <---- very bad addition

If you add up all the cards you will get around 70 cards, so cards like Brainstorm and Zombie Infestation never made it into my lists, but they should be considered at least.

---

Your upkeep should take longer than the rest of your turn most of the time.
Keep in mind that Ashen Ghoul can be activated at any time during your upkeep, and that you can respond to Ichorid triggering.
Also if you Bazaar during your upkeep dredging a Troll you can discard it immediatly and Dredge it again in your draw phase.

I think this should give a much better start for this archtype, and it deserves that,

Koen

EDIT: Quick rework.

// Lands
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Underground Sea
    4 Cephalid Coliseum
    4 Bazaar of Baghdad
    1 Tropical Island

// Creatures
    3 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Putrid Imp
    4 Ichorid
    3 Psychatog
    2 Ashen Ghoul

// Spells
    1 Lotus Petal
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Time Walk
    1 Yawgmoth's Will
    1 Chrome Mox
    4 Cabal Therapy
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Darkblast
    4 Brainstorm
    1 Crop Rotation
    1 Imperial Seal

I want Windfall back in (you don't lose when you resolve it. seriously) and I still need to fit in the chalices, rods or duresses.
17  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Ichorid on: January 30, 2006, 11:42:28 am
I'm amazed it took this long to get a thread on this topic (you t1 players have an INCREDIBLY slow rate of adoption.) There's a discussion of the dredge mechanic, but it's mostly about some nonsense with hermit druid, which seems bad to me. Bazaar is so much more efficient.

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=574669

My modified version of ynaht's build:

// Manabase
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Underground Sea
    4 Cephalid Coliseum
    1 Badlands
    1 Lotus Petal
    1 Sol Ring
    1 Chrome Mox
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Black Lotus

// Discard Outlets
    4 Bazaar of Baghdad
    4 Putrid Imp
    4 Psychatog
    1 Zombie Infestation

// Dredge Engine
    4 Ichorid
    3 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    1 Darkblast
    4 Cabal Therapy
    3 Deep Analysis

// Broken Stuff
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Time Walk
    1 Yawgmoth's Will
    1 Windfall
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Wheel of Fortune

I don't claim this is anywhere near optimal (for example, the first thing you should do is cut the third anal for some staple I missed. I can't imagine not having four needles sideboard for crypt as well).

I wouldn't bother posting it at all, but while playing this against myself with GWS Oath, it was completely mauling the Orchard deck in game after game. Any creature based strategy capable of doing that is worth a second look. It has some very broken openings and really only needs one permanent out to operate, which should be good against stax.

I leave it up to your capable hands to sort out the details.
18  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: Bazaar Oath on: December 10, 2005, 01:59:50 pm
I stand by my statement t1 lists all too often do not fully incorporate the principles of redundency. Some things you don't want to be wasting tutors on.

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Another point I'd like to make is this; Oath's ability to run Ground Seal was a feature that always seemed to fair well for the deck.  And piss me off as a man who enjoys his Goblin Welders.

I just had this aim conversation, actually.

Anon:  any ideas for oath long sideboard?
Anon:  6 open slots
Anon:  I'm thinking about putting ground seal on the board
Anon:  to fight dragon
Anon:  since I don't know what to expect
bogr42:  go for it
bogr42:  what do they side in vs you?
Anon:  5c brings in ray of rev
Anon:  if I win with oath game 1
bogr42:  as opposed to winning with tendrils
Anon:  yeah
Anon:  perhaps not the best idea then
bogr42:  and the other version?
Anon:  dunno
Anon:  I think UB  just concedes 2 and 3
bogr42:  then why are you siding in seal?

Quote
I don't want to come across like I'm shooting you down here man.  Maybe I'm missing a piece of the puzzle myself, but it appears you're tring to fit a different exhaust system on a car that already runs perfect.

I don't think it's particularly good either, but that's not the point. When I popped in to see how you innovative vintage folks were abusing Loam, I saw one thread about it.

It was a macey deck.

That's an absurdly low level of content about such a broken card.

This has inspired at least one other thread, and whatever I may think of that list, at least it's something. I am 100% sure members of meandeck are quietly working on a deck with loam. I suggest for once you don't sit back and let them do the innovating of the format.

If this thread and this deck have gotten people thinking about loam, it's serving its purpose.
19  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: Bazaar Oath on: December 09, 2005, 08:26:50 pm
The strip "lock" seems to be largely irrelevent to the performance of the deck.

I think upping the synergy with fastbond/exploration as Brutha suggests is probably correct. (wastes will be forthcoming as soon as room is found)

On a side note, Small Gods kicks ass.

I'm convinced four loams is a neccessity. t1 players seem to have a really shaky grasp on the whole redundancy thing.
20  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: Bazaar Oath on: December 02, 2005, 08:00:07 pm
if you are going to run LFTL and intuition, you mind as well run some cycling lands also as a back up draw engine.

That doesn't make much sense to me. They're trash without a loam, and with it they're considerably worse than than bazaar.

In fact, the only reason I can think of to run 1+ cycling lands is needle. Not good enough.

// Lands
    4 Flooded Strand
    4 Bazaar of Baghdad
    1 Strip Mine
    4 Forbidden Orchard
    4 Tropical Island
    1 Underground Sea
    1 Tolarian Academy

// Creatures
    1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
    1 Razia, Boros Archangel

// Spells
    4 Force of Will
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Time Walk
    1 Sol Ring
    4 Brainstorm
    3 Intuition
    1 Crop Rotation
    4 Life from the Loam
    4 Oath of Druids
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Rushing River
    4 Mana Leak
    1 Gaea's Blessing
    1 Yawgmoth's Will
    1 Demonic Tutor

I want a basic island md.
21  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: Bazaar Oath on: November 27, 2005, 11:46:46 pm
Hi, I'm sorry, but to be frank, I don't see how adding Bazaar and Loam is a 'cutting edge' addition to Oath and Vintage.  In a deck that wants to poop out a 6/* on turn 2 and end the game 2 turns later, I just don't see the advantage of adding a psuedo crucible lock.  If you have played Oath and Oath up Akroma, isn't your main goal to protect it for a couple of turns and just not care about their board position like you would with a different kind of archetype, like stax or something?  

Bazaar/Loam is powerful and I'm sure it is powerful in this deck.  Just not powerful enough.  If I were to maximize this draw engine, I would seriously want to have Squees.  And, if I were to build an Oath deck, I would really want it to beat the mirror.  It doesn't look like this one would because your landkill just isn't fast enough.

If you'll kindly refrain from crucifying me for posting this aim convo, I think you'll find some food for thought in it. I did.

EDIT: I'm bogr42. Don't ask.

[20:10] pipwizo: loam itself is nearly useless early on too
[20:10] bogr42: it's a hell of a lot better than squee
[20:10] pipwizo: a valid point
[20:10] pipwizo: sorta
[20:11] bogr42: the only reason squee/bazaar isn't a valid oath strategy right now that is that, you know. they're creatures
[20:11] pipwizo: I just don't see any advantage over the other bazaar decks
[20:12] bogr42: you shouldn't be trying to. I think the question you ought to be asking
[20:12] bogr42: is whether it can perform better than normal oath
[20:12] pipwizo: is if it's better than anything else out there
[20:12] bogr42: with its asstacular ak engine
[20:12] pipwizo: ...
[20:12] pipwizo: the last time somebody played AK in oath
[20:12] pipwizo: was like january
[20:12] bogr42: What does it use these days?
[20:13] pipwizo: impulse/brainstorm/tfk/ sensei
[20:13] bogr42: so in other words it uses sexier versions of scroll rack
[20:13] pipwizo: lol
[20:13] bogr42: I think that's a Bad Thing
[20:14] pipwizo: just check out some of the modern listsd
[20:15] bogr42: Are the modern lists anything like the one I lost to BadStax with?
[20:15] bogr42: and then proceeded to lose to extended affinty?
[20:15] pipwizo: dunno
[20:15] bogr42: *affinity
[20:16] pipwizo: http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=14157
[20:16] bogr42: you were running the horrible build with suppression field and you kept kicking my ass remember?
[20:16] pipwizo: http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=14158
[20:16] pipwizo: didn't have supression field
[20:16] pipwizo: had root maze
[20:16] bogr42: ah yeah
[20:16] bogr42: I remember maze being in it
[20:17] bogr42: I'm probably mixing it up with the deck that took 131st place out of 140 people
[20:17] bogr42: kevin cron I think
[20:17] pipwizo: yeah
[20:18] pipwizo: the thing I really don't like about your list is your draw engines lack of immediacy
[20:19] bogr42: I think I see what you're getting at but clarify further
[20:19] pipwizo: you're restricted to 4 threats, while dragon has 6 or 7
[20:19] pipwizo: that's the best comarison I can make
[20:19] pipwizo: so bazaar is more effective there
[20:19] pipwizo: because it can dig very quickly to a threat
[20:19] bogr42: I again urge you to compare it to other oath decks rather than other bazaar decks
[20:20] pipwizo: I'm giving you reasons why the bazaar engine isn't effective here
[20:20] pipwizo: first thing I'd do with your list
[20:20] bogr42: it's better than bloody portent varients
[20:20] pipwizo: -3 seal
[20:20] bogr42: I mean that's just sad
[20:20] pipwizo: +3 duress
[20:21] bogr42: which means enlightened goes
[20:21] pipwizo: vamp
[20:21] bogr42: right
[20:21] pipwizo: I'd adjust your manabase to utilize choke too
[20:21] bogr42: I was thinking about choke and it's marvelous uses
[20:22] pipwizo: sarcasm?
[20:22] bogr42: not
[20:22] pipwizo: ok
[20:22] pipwizo: cause choke is the cats nuts
[20:22] bogr42: as opposed to the bee's leg joints
[20:23] pipwizo: I don't see what's so wrong with portent variants
[20:24] pipwizo: especially given your history in utilizing them
[20:24] pipwizo: you're perfectly aware of their effectiveness in high concentration
[20:24] bogr42: As much as I love my cantrips 'n shit
[20:24] bogr42: and you're right, I do have this huge fondness for them
[20:25] bogr42: which blinds me to simpler solutions sometimes
[20:25] bogr42: They're tutors
[20:25] bogr42: not draw
[20:25] pipwizo: well think of it like this
[20:25] bogr42: viva la difference
[20:25] pipwizo: instead of 4 bazaar and 4 loam
[20:25] pipwizo: you're running 8 cantrips
[20:26] pipwizo: instead of 4 cards that let you dig
[20:26] bogr42: mind you I'm already running brainstorm
[20:26] pipwizo: and 4 that enable CA creation
[20:26] pipwizo: you get 8 that dig
[20:26] pipwizo: I'm aware of that
[20:26] pipwizo: oath could give two shits about card advantage most of the time
[20:27] pipwizo: it only needs 1 card to resolve
[20:27] bogr42: because it's a combo-control deck
[20:27] pipwizo: most of the time the rest is just cake
[20:27] bogr42: they all are
[20:27] bogr42: that's the problem
[20:27] bogr42: if you want to take that logic to it's conclusion then gifts has little use for all it's draw paraphanlia because it only needs one card to resolve
[20:28] bogr42: *paraphanalia
[20:28] bogr42: (sp?)
[20:28] pipwizo: *coughMDGsuckscough*
[20:28] bogr42: mdg
[20:28] bogr42: :blank:
[20:28] pipwizo: the good gifts variants trade 1 for 1 or worse
[20:28] pipwizo: meandeck gifts
[20:29] bogr42: oh
[20:29] bogr42: shoulda caught that
[20:29] pipwizo: gifts did cut it's draw paraphernailia
[20:29] pipwizo: it went from 4 gifts, 4 scroll 4 brainstorm 1 fact 1 ancestral
[20:30] pipwizo: to 4 tfk 2 gifts 4 brainstorm 1 ancestral
[20:30] bogr42: so it cut six draw slots
[20:30] pipwizo: because it only needs 1 card to resolve
[20:30] bogr42: misd I'm assuming still sucks
[20:30] pipwizo: yep
[20:31] bogr42: what came in for the missing slots? Belcher I'm assuming, and... what?
[20:31] pipwizo: duress
[20:31] bogr42: gorilla shaman?
[20:31] pipwizo: pithing needle
[20:31] pipwizo: shaman
[20:31] pipwizo: a few still run 1 or 2 merchant scrolls
[20:32] pipwizo: but those are the minority
[20:32] bogr42: where was I
[20:32] bogr42: something occured to me
[20:32] bogr42: oh yeah
[20:32] bogr42: oath only has to resolve one card yes?
[20:32] pipwizo: yeah
[20:33] bogr42: Ok, tell me this
[20:33] bogr42: in normal oath, is intuition a must counter?
[20:33] pipwizo: normal oath =?
[20:34] bogr42: by normal I mean "other"
[20:34] pipwizo: they don't run intuition
[20:34] bogr42: let me put it this way
[20:34] bogr42: as it's much more apt
[20:34] pipwizo: in MD oath it depends on the situation
[20:35] bogr42: forget what I just said, what I meant was: Do they have support cards that are as powerful as intuition is in bazaar oath?
[20:35] pipwizo: chalice, choke, needle(sometimes)
[20:35] bogr42: md
[20:35] pipwizo: no one plays MD oath
[20:35] bogr42: I meant maindeck
[20:35] pipwizo: oh
[20:35] pipwizo: chalice, needle, tutors
[20:36] pipwizo: null rod
[20:36] pipwizo: TFK
[20:36] bogr42: intuition is like most of those wrapped into one card
[20:37] bogr42: letting intuition resolve is like letting curcible/strip AND thirst for knowledge resolve
[20:37] pipwizo: then how about you go to 1 loam and 1 bazaar
[20:37] bogr42: that's actually a really interesting idea
[20:37] pipwizo: hmm
[20:37] pipwizo: that is aninteresting idea
[20:38] bogr42: obv you'd go up to four intuitions
[20:38] pipwizo: or giftsd
[20:39] bogr42: Here's a thought dude
[20:40] bogr42: take gifts, go -red?, +green, +1 bazaar, loam, and strip
[20:40] pipwizo: mebbe
[20:40] bogr42: also regrowth to sort of make up for the loss of recoup
[20:40] bogr42: wish you can't really get around though
[20:40] pipwizo: hmm
[20:40] pipwizo: I'll look into this some more
[20:40] pipwizo: dunno if oath is the best shell for this
22  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Bazaar Oath on: November 27, 2005, 10:18:00 pm
As a competative player who's rarely really interested in t1, I tend to mess around with long-dismissed concepts like Replenish whenever I do start building. I don't have the experience to fine-tune the best decks as I'd be doing in other formats, so my only chance is to throw out something radically different and hope it catches people off-guard.

Here's the list I'd arrived at after seven total games played:

// Lands
    4 Flooded Strand
    4 Bazaar of Baghdad
    4 Tundra
    1 Island
    1 Strip Mine
    2 Tropical Island
    1 Tolarian Academy

// Creatures
    4 Squee, Goblin Nabob

// Spells
    4 Mana Drain
    4 Force of Will
    4 Replenish
    3 Seal of Cleansing
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Balance
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Form of the Dragon
    1 Enlightened Tutor
    1 Time Walk
    1 Sol Ring
    4 Brainstorm
    3 Intuition
    1 Life from the Loam
    1 Crop Rotation
    1 Solitary Confinement
    1 Gaea's Blessing

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Ray of Revelation
SB: 1 Darkblast
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
SB: 1 Forbidden Orchard
SB: 2 Oath of Druids
SB: 3 Disrupt

The blessing was there A) because it seemed good. The graveyard is just an open hand in this format B) I wanted to support the oath sideboard plan.

At this point I realized what you all probably know: replenish sucks. It's a card-for-card swap with the oath kill, except it requires more setup and it's slower.

Hell, not only was I already sideboarding Oath, I'd even moved a piece of it maindeck. Why not bring in the rest of it and cut the replenish crap? Answer: Squee. Bazaar is awful without squee or uba or something else oath hates.

Or, it was until life from loam was printed.

// Lands
    4 Flooded Strand
    4 Bazaar of Baghdad
    1 Tundra
    1 Strip Mine
    4 Forbidden Orchard
    4 Tropical Island
    1 Island

// Creatures
    1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
    1 Spirit of the Night

// Spells
    4 Mana Drain
    4 Force of Will
    3 Seal of Cleansing
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Enlightened Tutor
    1 Time Walk
    1 Sol Ring
    4 Brainstorm
    3 Intuition
    1 Crop Rotation
    4 Life from the Loam
    4 Oath of Druids
    1 Gaea's Blessing

The manabase feels solid so far, but if it's horribly misbuilt for random.good.metagame, tell me*. I wouldn't know. I do suggest you play around with it a few times and get a feel for the land interactions, though. If you are a nervous person with a small penis and chronic ulcer problems, you have permission to run a "safety" riftstone portal.

*unless your suggestion starts with "-4 bazaar"

Is spirit or razia or hydra supposed to be better in oath? Pretend I ran whichever kicks the most ass.

The maindeck seals are a holdover from the replenish deck, which I should note crushed stax off them. They're obviously not nearly as synergetic now. Do they stay or go? Note I'm splashing white pretty much for them and enlightened tutor now. On the other hand, loam makes your manabase VERY resilient.

You can run a fourth intuition if you want one. Three is fine.

Loam is completely insane. Intuition for bazaar, strip, and loam should win you the game on the spot. You'll rock with pseudo-crucible lock.

What I've seen of oath is a combo-control deck with crappy draw. Pumping up your AK with a lucky oath is just gravy on an obselete, clunky, hopelessly unsynergetic engine. Oath is broken. Why shouldn't the rest of the deck be?

This is a small but valuable step forward in keeping oath on the cutting edge. I trust the competent hands of TMDers to move it the rest of the way, to smooth the path where I have stumbled, and generally to help refine the deck.
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