Pithing Needle is going to be inserted into my Oath deck for sure. That will give me Needles, Chalices, CoW, and 4 strip effects. The huge advantage Pithing Needle has for Oath is that it's perfect for stalling and denying your opponent for the few crucial turns it takes for your creatures to kill. Oath now has more potent weapons than before, and after losing all 3 of my matches against Fish / Standstill at Richmond. Pithing Needle set to Nevinryal's Disk would be huge in the Standstill match, and Pithing Needle also effectively shuts down manlands and LoA.

You say you are debating Counterspell vs. Mana Drain, but your deck runs good Mana Drain fueled cards such as Intuition, Cunning Wish, AK's and Rack and Ruin from the board. At SCGP9 Richmond this past weekend I played one Crucible of Worlds maindeck along with 3 Chalice of the Void, but I have a tight budget so I couldn't afford to play with Drains, so all day i was wishing I had them to fuel out goodness... So from what experiences I had at this past Richmond, I think that the Drains would've won me at least one match that I can remember. And just by going with that, I think that Drains are superior to Counterspell. I actually like Mana Leak over Counterspell, because any mox and blue land gives you Mana Leak turn one.

Pox just isnt good enough for Vintage, and would probably be even worse without power... also, your forum is gonna get locked pretty quickly, the moderators frown upon those who ask for decklists and nothing else...

Oh wow, I did make a point that was a missplay, hah, now I feel like a jackass. And I even forgot that Null Rod was in the deck and that it shuts off equipment when I was talking about SOFI.

Hey, nice to see the UG, I've been dying to play a deck similar to that for awhile now, but I just love having white too much with Ug that I cant cut it just yet. Anyways, since you didn't post any test results, I wanted to know how your matches against Oath and the rest of the Tier 1 field were. Oath seems tough because all you have are Lyrists and Seasingers, possibly Root Maze, but that just stalls.

I really love the Witnesses, they are so hot, but why not the lone Regrowth in there? Witness is great, but Regrowth slips in for one less mana, which is crucial in control matches. I dunno if you tested it and just found Witness strictly better, which would not surprise me at all. Another card I looked for but didn't find was Mystical Tutor. You could Mystical in response to Standstill breaking on yourself to grab one of the utility spells or a FOW or Ancestral and Walk. Just another thing I found interesting.

And just HOW good are the Swords, because they bone people with regularity in Standard, and the card advantage and shock are great, not to mention the extra fat bonus. I've seen the Ninja Sword list and its swears by them, but I have never really tested them outside of Madness, and I loved them there against Fish and Tog, so I'm willing to bet that having them in place of Curiosity perhaps isn't such a bad thing for the Maindeck. Just a though, correct me if I'm wrong though if you've already tested this theory.

p.s.... spell check for posting is the awesome sauce

Walker and Sphere are fine for the deck because Glimpse of Nature draws cards for every creature you play, so it trades off 1 for 1 in terms of cards. If he had the Goblin Bombardments in the deck, a clamped anything would still draw two cards, but thats just an idea.


A suggestion to the deck builder. Try running Cloud of Fairies in the deck, as untapping your Cradles or Academy is perfect when going for the stroke kill. And the Fairies clamp as well, making them a perfect fit. I would probably cut some number of Spheres and Walkers for them, but the Spheres are great if aggro and aggro control is prevalant in your meta, allowing for defense early and then getting low enought to clamp off eventually if need be. A Fastbond is cheap to buy and would work perfect in your build as well.

Also, does having 4 of the same legendary land ever hurt you?

Doomsday is a really cheap five proxy deck to make. The most expensive cards are the lands. It's a neat deck to play and is rather strong, but if you are new to the format (sorry if you aren't) it may not be the best deck to pilot at first. FCG is probably your best bet if you want to win games the most, but Salvagers is also a good deck if there is a lack of Null Rod in your enviroment.

Land Grant loses most of its attractiveness in aggro control because it telegraphs your game plan to your opponent. Letting them know you have FoW or Daze in your hand will let them play around your counters, and that is horrible for the aggro control player. On a lesser note, having a Land Grant countered can break your face sometimes, leaving you short on mana and making it an uphill battle. I've won games by Dazing a turn one Land Grant, its just as effective as Stifling a fetch. Add pressure from Wastes and Strip and it's GG.

I played the deck at the last SCGP9 in Richmond back in January, and I went 2-2 before I dropped out. I lost first round to Jason Stinnet of Meandeck a.k.a "theCap'n" in three games after he topdecked a second Chain of Vapor to deal with my Arcane Lab with Meandeck SX... I had a Dryad and an Efreet that would be lethal in 2 turns, but I drew into three straight lands and he got me. Then I got my ass handed to me by Bazzar Dragon on turn 1 and then on turn 3. The two decks I beat that day were Doomsday (the deck I almost played, but I developed this deck a week before the tourney) and I also beat a really pimped out Hatred deck. I remember I had a ridiculous first turn of Lotus for Dryad and Clamp, two Kobolds, Ancestral from Tropical, into two more kobolds! I had a 6/6 for two one turn one, then he dropped Lotus, Jet, Swamp into Juzam Djinn and we had to laugh cuz the Dryad was bigger than the mighty turn one Juzam! I think if I had tested and had more experience with the deck I could have fared better, but I was happy with it at the time.

It was Serracollector that stated that after he tested for weeks he found himself always without mana. Moxlotus was referring to that statement I believe.

@ Serracollector:

Do you think only four Dryad is good enough to kill with, simply because Lavamancer is pretty slow at being lethal? How does the deck fare against versions of aggro-control that do pack Swords to Plowshares? I like having Nimble Mongoose alongside of my Dryads because with the amount of cantriping you do you will have threshold early and often. This does, however, mean that you have to cut the Lavamancers though. I'm not sure if that is a good idea, but I think that maybe having the Lavamancers in the side aginst Welders and Fish might work. Just a thought, what do you think?

Yeah, the decklist I posted was just something to throw up here to see what people's general opinions on card choices I had in mind. The decklist was simply a pile that I threw together, so in retrospect, posting 60 cards together and calling it a decklist with no testing was probably a horrible idea. Hang me by my toes and lash me with wet noodles til I bleed... I deserve it........

The Dryads are less than average with the Standstills because playing Gro requires you to be proactive and Standstill forces you to play reactively, and that alone should have been enough for me to not post the "decklist".  I suppose I should have told everyone that I do play the Bird Shit deck, with the only problems being Chalice for 2 mostly. Does anybody else have a solution to CotV? Tormod's Crypt isn't so horrible if I drop a Null Rod early enough.

This is very similar to a deck I designed a while back. The basis was Skullclamp and Kobolds as a draw engine in Gro. Here's the list, I figure it may be interesting for you to see it.

10 Kobolds
4 Skullclamp
4 Quirion Dryad
3 Serendib Efreet
1 Darksteel Colossus
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Leak
4 Brainstorm
1 Tinker
1 Regrowth
1 Ancestrall Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Crop Rotation
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal

1 Tolarian Academy
1 Gaea's Cradle
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
3 Island
2 Forest
1 Strip Mine

That's just an old copy and pasted decklist from a thread I made a long while back, and looking at the list I'd make some changes to it for sure. Things like Gush, Stifle, Daze and Misdirection would help the deck a bunch probly. Hope that sparks a few ideas in your head for any changes or what not for ya. Let me know what you think about my deck.

I have been playing around with Bird Shit since the T8 from Syracuse was released, and I still love it. I made some changes and tweaked it a little, removing Rushing River and one of each Stifle, MisD, and StP. In place of those I added 2 Seal of Cleansing, 1 Nimble Mongoose, and I changed the manabase around a little adding an 18th source to his 17.

However, I do have an experimental build in the woodworks that I would like some comments on. It fits this thread decently enough I guess, without starting a new one. It's a W/U/G list that battles some of Bird Shit's biggest problems I've had through testing. Chalice for 2 bones me, and so does graveyard hate, mostly Tormod's Crypt, a card that is in all SB's everywhere right now it seems like.

Goose Droppings v.1

4 Meddling Mage
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Quirion Dryad (perhaps Serendib Efreet?)
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Standstill
3 Null Rod
3 Daze
2 Stifle
2 Misdirection
2 Seal of Cleansing
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Regrowth
1 Gush

5 Fetches
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
2 Mishra's Factory
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Strip Mine

SB:
3 Serenity
3 Sacred Ground
3 Ray of Revelation
3 Arcane Laboratory
3 Tormod's Crypt

I guess the SB is just generalized for now, but whatever. I dont play the wastes because I dont have any, but I proxied them and got boned for colors too often, so I cut them. The mana denial is still strong with Null Rods and Stifles for fetches and opposing Wastelands. I'm not sure if Quirion Dryad is good with Standstill, he seems very non-synergenic while I'm playing passively, so I think Serendib Efreets might go in his spot. The Standstills replaced what was 3 Mental Note, but without Werebear, threshold is not so important, and it minimizes the threat of Tormod's Crypt. Mishra's Factory helps apply pressure, especially under a Standstill. The deck really really misses the 4/4 Werebears though, as he gets out and wins games quickly.

So after all that, I still think that the Bird Shit style deck is the best aggro control out there.

But the fact is, and I agree with Freelancer, that having one card because it is half of one card and has a decent power:cost ratio does not make it good. It makes it worse because it is now in slots where a better creature or a more versatile form of disrption should be. This is why Meddling Mage is so powerful in this deck, because it is disruption for anything that is a non land card, and has the bonus of being as 2/2 for two.

The scenario you presented is very viable. However, your clock will die once Oath hits for the first time, and both you (assuming you have no other threats resolved) and the Oath player will start rebounding at the same time. This is bad for you because Oath sports a much stronger draw engine and more counters. Plus, the Oath's clock is much quicker than the aggro control decks clock, so the Oath player has more time to find the solution than you do.

Assuming you play the other way you reserve the beats for more efficient creatures (presumably) and more efficient disruption (presumably). A two toughness one drop follwed by Oath disruption turn two is certainly better.

I am currently piloting a W/U/G aggro control deck, and I choose to run Ray of Revelation in my board because it is Rack and Ruin against Oath, but more efficient because it can be spread out over the course of multiple turns. I do however run 4 Meddling Mage, 3 STP's, and 2 Seal of Cleansing maindeck, so game one is already manageable.



IMHO opinion, as far is this thread is concerned, it is Ray of Revelation.

(RoR also shines in the dragon matchup   )

Wow... It sure is refreshing to see people tell us how to beat decks in the format...*cough not cough*  

After reading this post and your other post, I wonder why it is you believe it is important to get into these forums to "teach" players how to play, win, shuffle, scoop, etc...



These types of things are obvious to most players on TMD, and moreover, telling somebody that Soul Warden will shut down Dragon is just ridiculous, because, well, you can figure that one out. (Ambassador, Witness/Ancestral)



The success of Slaver is not a mystery. The deck is ridiculously powerful. Many times one single Slaver activation will win the game, and almost always a Slaver activation will put the CS player so far ahead it will be nearly impossible to recover from it. Slaver is also probably the most resilient deck in the format, one of its biggest assests and contributors to its success. Holding Welders at bay will improve the matchup, but it will not win the match. Tinker will break games, and Yawg's Win will always either put CS back on top in a losing battle or simply smash the opposing players face in.


Sure, blessings are nice, but unless i'm playing Oath I probably dont have them. And if I have one Serra Avatar in my deck after being Brainfreezed for 3489304 cards I have ONE TURN to win, after that, I draw nothing and I still lose, unless I have a PERMANENT discard engine that CANT BE STOPPED. Even then, I only have the resources in play and those in my hand to win with.



If this were a college course, I just dropped your class on the first day.

Is Extract a card that many (if any) decks run in their sideboard? My guess is probably not, unless its some new tech i missed out on, so that it is not a good reason to not run the Salvagers kill. However, a good reason to not run Salvagers is all the combo hate that is in most metas right now. Running Salvagers in the deck without any other win condition makes the deck very vulnerable to combo hate like Arcane Lab, Null Rod, Pyrostatic Pillar, Tormod's Crypt, Ground Seal, Root Maze etc... Those are generally cards that the Oath deck does not have to worry about post board but will now have too. It also takes away from the decks ability to beatdown if the combo does not filter into the graveyard, because a Salvagers clock with no combo is just awful mostly.

The one thing that jumped into my mind when I saw this was... what about all the former decklists that the "newbies" had created. Where was the love for a deck that was considered subpar until a Meandecker put his name behind it? I had read 3 or 4 threads about various Salvagers decks, from its inception to its AuriOath days, and I made a control oriented version that I used to start a thread awhile back that generated a decent amount of discussion only to be overshadowed by SCG Syracuse the following day. http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=22047&highlight=

I was just wondering if you, Toad, had been working on this for as long as some of the other people out there?  I know I had put some time into the deck, had this been a long time coming? I was thrilled to see a more experienced Vintage player put his hands into a deck that was practically written off as a "pretender" and a "budget deck", and I'm excited to test your new tech. It's just funny that this whole concept is new to many players, it shows that it does take a big name to get something out there on these forums.

(p.s. Sorry if I asked questions answered in the article... I have no credit card = no premium SCG   )

I personally sweat Meddling Mages, and I have played numerous games agianst CS.

The problem is though, without knowledge of whats in their hand, it makes it incredibly difficult to determine what the proper call for a Mage is. You may call Welder then they tinker for the nuts, or you call Thirst and they Drain into an Intuition. The problem that the Mages face is that CS is just so powerful and resistant that there is no ideal play. I typically like to call Thirst first, simply because many decks that run Mages run plenty of counter and draw, and calling TFK will give you a slight advantage to out-draw and out-counter them.

But really, the first Mage is typically a shot into the dark unless one of the prime Mage targets has already resolved.

Are we at that point in Type One when one must start to say that Yawg's Win is just as noteworthy as the other pillars of the format? Yawgmoth's Will is just one of those cards that can't simply be banned because it is the Holy Grail of combo decks. Not only that, but the Will is found in many many other decks, making it just as important to the format as say Mana Drain, Workshop, and Fow...

While I do agree that Yawgmoth's Will is supremely broken, I just dont see any reason why it should be banned. Vintage is the home of broken cards, the format where sometimes one spell should just win you the game. Vintage is the format we play to play with our cards, not to ban them.

This may very well be the most refreshing thread in the newbie forum. It's good to see that somebody out there is just getting into Type 1, and its great to see our community helping out a true beginner without harsh flames or incessant "n00b" remarks.

Just one tip of advice, while it is extremely convenient for readers to click on the links of cards that you have listed that they are not familiar with, it is probably not necessary. Most of the users here on TMD know most of magic's cards, so you would be able to save a TON of time if you didnt have to link all the cards.

Goodluck with your deck, hope it works great for you!

I actually love Serendib Efreet, he's a fun card and may be under the radar just looking for a deck to use him in (i.e. Nimble Mongoose and Werebear finding homes in Bird Shit).

And I'm going to assume that GI was talking about Decree of Justice, but hey, I could be wrong. But I do agree with him on Survival and Phid. Survival toolbox based decks are way to slow for the format right now, and Phid seems to come online a few turns to late, as Fish showed us.

Like Disburden said earlier, the entire Affinity mechanic that wrecked house for awhile never really dropped its bombshell on Type One. It got some attention, had a few lists, but never became a force to be reckoned with.

Also, Reanimator style decks and the nifty Life.dec that are popular right now in Extended aren't exactly up to par with the level of power T1 has.

Thanks BigChuck, i didnt realize that the link was for a new article, I assumed   it was the link for the email.

I agree with Mr. Fantazy's take on what the R&D is trying to do for our format. They are keeping it exactly what they call it, "our format". Type One magic is practically considered the Holy Grail of magic formats. The R&D, especially Aaron Forsythe after his attendance at SCGP9 2, knows that it is in "our" hands to keep the format healthy and fun.

So what exactly does Aaron Forsythe want us to do?

Does he want us to send him our secret tech if it is ridiculous so that they can ban it before we get a chance to prove how ridiculous our tech is in a tournament?

Or does he just want us to show him what kind of brokeness is out there for thier knowledge, not just for the sake of the B/R list? Is it that they dont want to find it themselves because its not an important issue to them right now? Does he assume that by giving us 6 months in advance to test we will act as "members" of R&D or whatever and do the work for them?

What exactly are we discussing/debating in this thread?

And one general question about Portal. (this probably has been answered) Will Horsemanship be a new mechanic or will it be erratted into something already in existence such as Flying?

 @ JuJu

Meddling Mage should not be viewed as a clock for most decks that run him. If you look at the Bird Shit deck from Lam Phan's incredible showing at SCG Syracuse, you see that the deck also utilizes very efficient beaters with Werebear and Nimble Mongoose.

Meddling Mage is a control card, straight up. From my experiences with the card it is a stall tactic until you can drop a decent sized beater. The two damage it does deal per turn reduces the amount of time it will take for your finishers to get the job done. That is when Meddling Mages truly shine.

And in my opinion, Mages coming down on turn one or two are more likely to resolve than a bomb like Cranial Extraction. CE is sometimes game over, but against the deck that it is game over it is very hard to push it through (i.e. Oath).

My favorite archtype to play since my inception into Magic has always been Aggro Control. WUG to be more specific. Meddling Mage is by far my favorite creature of all time, and in a close second comes Quirion Dryad. You may or may not have listed Dryad in your discussion for various reasons, but I believe he is one of the hottest aggro control creatures out there. I like the Dryads over the Bird Shit style creature base also because I believe that Tormod's Crypts will be returning to a SB near you now that 12 of the 15 slots dedicated to beating Stax and its Unholy Trio are now not as necessary.

One card i disagreed with you on is Null Rod. Null Rods are fantastic, and IMHO are taylor made to be played in this archtype. I was ecstatic when I read about your love for Seal of Cleansing, as I too love the power of this versatile card.

Black Vise is a card that I think was basically "banned by restriction". Its inclusion in most decks is pretty weak without being able to play four now. Also, I think the Standstill route may be turning a little "old school" now, as players have learned to play around it quite efficiently.

Phyrexian Negator probably is falling off a bit right now beause with the big shift in deck that will be taking place, creature control will be more of an issue for decks again. However, his presence in the SB for the control matchup may be something to look into if you decide to run black.


ME TOO.

Props to starting a thread without a decklist, as this will allow plenty of open discussion on Aggro Control  

The WUG MiracleGro deck is in my opinion better against control slaver than GAT. Meddling Mages (the only non P9 magic card that gives me hard-ons) are simply retarded if they resolve against CS when you name Welder or TFK. I personally like calling TFK first, shutting down their main card draw giving you a tempo advantage allowing you to fight the Welders with counters and StP's.

Again Slim Shady's (Meddling Mages pet name from me) and StP's become your best friends in the Oath matchup, another tough but winnable matchup. Countless numbers of games were won simple by having a Mage on Oath and protecting it long enough to win with very efficient beats. White also gives you my favorite utility enchantment in Seal of Cleansing, and adds Ray of Revelation to your board in the Dragon matchup. Balance can also be added to stop the aggresivenes of Food Chain or Madness, two decks with much upside now that Trini is restricted.

Certainly the power of Duress, Demonic Tutor and Yawg's Win is something the deck could miss, but the utility it gains might just far outweigh those losses enough to put WUG above GAT.

I too agree that the Anger count should be upped to three, perhaps cutting one Squee won't hurt too badly, as early game you will have enough goodies to discard to BoB that having Squee wont be as important as late game when the card disadvantage of BoB begins to hurt more.

As far as the white mana in your board, I think it can be cut for a Riftstone Portal or two, a card that I love having discarded in my graveyard, as it turns your BoB's, Wastes, and Strip into psuedo Savannahs. Also, three Null Rods is the ideal number always, as its seems to be perfect for getting early but never being flooded with them.

The only card i disliked in the current list that you have posted is the 4 ESG's. They are great for a turn one Mongrel or a turn two Arrogant, but other than that they are quite rank in the late game, and the one turn boost they serve just doesnt seem to please me as a four of in this deck. If you are concerned with early acceleration than a Lotus Petal and a Lion's Eye Diamond would fit perfectly into this list. Perhaps tweaking the mana base with some Riftstone Portals and some Tropical Islands to give you blue which would add Deep Anal and Windfall potentially. Also, if you do find out about the proxy situation, it would give you the bombs that are Ancestral and Time Walk.

Another card you can have that is nuts in plenty of matchups is the very underrated Krosan Reclamation. It ruins Dragon, helps versus the Control Slaver matchup, and puts frowns on faces in response to a Yawg's Win.

I dont agree with this statement at all. Gush is more useful than pitching four cards to a Tog. Gush is not only an alternate casting cost draw spell, but it does plenty of tricks like saving lands from Strip effects and floating mana as a pseudo excellerant.

However, I do feel that a second MisD would help out alot. But ripping out the Enforcers and adding Werebears and Mongeese (mongeese pWn) would practically turn this deck into an inferior version of Bird Shit, a deck I am currently testing with and am happy with its performance. (especially with 3sphere being restricted).

My only concern with the list posted so far is an overabundance of card draw. That may be a silly statement, but I think that you could cut the two Sleight of Hand or two Serum Visions to include two more "answer" cards for the deck, such as Null Rods or possibly maindeck Seal of Cleansing (this card is so versatile its silly).

One question to the user, do you find yourself Wishing for the Fact or Fiction frequently? I'd like to know what situations are common for pulling the FoF.

yeah, i thought about it denny, i even have a decklist that i played at SCGP9 in richmond this january... here's the link i have for an old forum i wrote, it has a decklist and discussion on it there.  
http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=21406&highlight=

as for the deck on topic, i think that stifle is powerful right now. owning fetches is very good sometimes, and also up for a potential ressurection is Misdirection. with more combo around Mis-D can be crucial targetting yourself with ancestralls or winning counterwars.

I like Mystic Enforcer alot, but i dont know if Lam Phan's Werebear's and Mongoose (mongeese??) are better, they seem quicker and have a better early game, but ME is a powerful finisher. I think its time to test out a wide variety of aggrto-control, an appealing archtype IMHO, and i also believe its a deck to look out for.

Tristal hit it on the head when he named Tendrils for the Mages. The Mages are more efficient than a lot of people give them credit for. Many times I in fact call Mana Drain against the various control decks out there since it doesnt affect my game at all. Slim Shadys (Meddling Mage=MM= Marshall Matthers=Eminem=Slim Shady) are very effective games 2 and 3 after I can devise a strategy to prevent opponents disruption. Many times an unanswered Mage for Welder or Trinisphere is enough to get the combo into place and win.

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandevent.php?Article=9041

Two T8 decks at SCG Syracuse on Saturday featured two decks running 4 maindeck Meddling Mages each, 3rd place "Bird Shit" and 4th place 3cc. That is pretty good proof right there that Slim Shady is a powerful enough card to run four of in a deck.