The deck does look fun, but in general I think combos involving cards that are sub-optimal on their own are not good enough in T1. In this list Cephalid Coliseum, Baubles, Plagarism, and Arcane Denial -- the core of what you are trying to abuse -- are ok but not great on their own.

Since each of those combos do not win the game, but instead setup the win, I think they are more comparable to something like Brainstorm + Polluted Delta or Thirst + Pithing Needle/T.Crypt. Fetchlands and Brainstorm were amazing on their own. Or even if you look at Thirst + Pithing Needle/T.Crypt, both halves of the combo could be useful. Comparing that to Arcane Denial + Random Artifact, I would much rather have the Thirst by itself over Arcane Denial.

Those are my thoughts on it, but I am still open to seeing how well this deck performs.

Hey thats cool, I plan on being there. Thanks for letting us know in advance!

You should probably look into getting this Tournament listed on the new Calendar feature.

Anyways, It looks like I might be able to attend.

The reason we speak of unrestricting cards is so that Vintage can be (or at least approach) a format where you can play any card in the game.

People are constantly working to create innovative decks and new ideas, and they don't even need the "broken decks" to be restricted to do it. You say you like to play with"the most powerful and broken cards in the format", yet building decks to "break" a card in is a bad thing?



I would argue that unrestricting cards that do not need to be restricted also can lead to an innovative and stable metagame. And I think it sounds logical to say " [restricting] broken cards just throws us for another loop and is a desperate and annoying way to shake the metagame up." So I think those are poor arguments for restriction and against un-restriction.



So you are telling me that you think Polluted Delta is as format warping as unrestricted Tolarian Academy, Library of Alexandria or Strip Mine? Fetchlands are NOWHERE near that power level, and those are the only two lands on the restricted list. Even if they were restricted, it wouldn't change much (mana bases would be less stable as everyone else is mentioning), so why? So you can "stop bitching about it" as you claim everyone is doing about Dream Halls?



This sentence makes me question how much Vintage you've actually played. I believe that most experienced Vintage players would agree with me in saying that you do have to build your way up to a win, and that the format is not all about "playing on crack mode starting turn 1"


Maybe in a few years when you know how more about the format and you learn to put an argument together we'll talk about restrictions again.

I won't claim that I've tested extensively, but I will state my observations. They are both great cards - no doubt worthy of inclusion - though each is better in different situations. Since DT is such a draw heavy deck, I think of games in terms of how much "gas" you have. Assuming you have similar amounts of Mana and are able to get your spell to resolve:

(1) If you have an edge on your opponent, Gifts will end the game, period. You should be able to force your opponent to give you the cards you need to win with Gifts, whereas Scrying can't guarantee that.
(2) If you have some gas in your hand, and if you are good at selecting the 4 cards, Gifts should be enough to push you over the edge, however, Scrying does the same thing. I call it about even here.
(3) If you're out of gas/topdecking or behind, then a resolved Scying far exceeds Gifts.

Based on those observations, I think Gifts gets my vote for now. I think it is better to have the punishing card in scenario 1 and sometimes in 2, as opposed to what seems to be "lose-less" in scenario 3 and sometimes 2. I will have to keep testing though, and I'm interested to hear what other people have noticed.

You are missing something, and there might be a point in welding one mox for another:

The reason some people might say Rack and Ruin is a good card vs. Slaver is that you can destroy the Mox they are targeting with Goblin Welder in response to the activation, fizzling the weld. Moxlotus's comment is saying that even if you make the Rack and Ruin play in response to a weld, the Slaver plaer can just play another mox and weld again.

There are two situations I can think of that someone might weld one mox for another: (1) To generate Mana/color fix, or (2) if someone tries to destroy your mox when you have an active welder, you could weld to fizzle their spell/ability.

This is a question for everyone about how worth-while Strip Mine is:

In versions of Ichorid with Petrified Field and only disruptive Dread Return creatures (Angel, Chosen, Titan, E-Witness, not Sage+Zealot), what do you think the advantages/disadvantages are of running either 1 Strip Mine, or a second copy of your only Dread Return target?

I completely agree with your first point. I always want to see Leyline against Aggro, it gives you an incredible advantage.

And for your second point I would like to add that I believe part of the reasoning behind the lands maindeck is to give you an out in the mirror in game 1. Assuming both players mulligan to Leyline, its a matter of putting 2-3 lands together in order to hardcast Narcomoebas, Thugs and potentially Stinkweed Imp. However, if you are going to cut Petrified Field (admittedly the weakest card in the deck), you have less opportunity to hardcast guys. That is where the name Manaless Ichorid comes from, you don't need lands.

The reasoning behind them is that you don't have the space in the SB for them, so they are basically SB cards in the MD. You could argue the same thing for City of Brass -- that they should be in the SB -- however with only 15 SB slots, some of the cards you want more post board end up main deck. This way you have access to 6-9 Jailer Removal (2 Darkblast, 4 Chain, and possibly 3 Contagion), 8-11 Leyline Removal (4 Chain, and some number of Wispmare + Emerald Charm), and 8 lands to cast all of it(4 Main Deck City of Brass, 4 SB Gemstone Mine). Darkblast just happens to be the best candidate for the Main, since they have the static ability Dredge and you really do want to take out Welders since they are the way CS beats you. Plus, they are good in game 1 in the mirror since you need to be casting guys to win, supposing you both mull to Leyline.

Hey Godot, Nice work tearing up with Ichorid.


I'm not sure if you grabbed my list, but I won a tourney with a similar build -2 Flame-Kin Zealot, +1 Ancestor's Chosen, +1 Strip Mine.

I've been toying around with the Zealot kill too, and I was wondering how you liked him. Do you think it sped up your kill in a lot of cases even w/o the Sage? I haven't tested much without at least a singleton copy of both Sage and Zealot, but it seems to me like its hard to get enough Bridges in your yard for the consistent turn 2/3 kills running just Zealot alone. What did you think?

I Dread Returned Ancestor's Chosen in one game all day - Game one against Mono-Brown Shop Aggro - which is the reason I wanted it in the first place. And really, it wasn't even necessary, because I could have just blocked at that point. All the rest of the time I was DRing Grave-trolls to have some protection against  E-truth. For that reason I'm likely going to switch to Titan, Witness or both because thats looking like the best configuration for a combo-heavy meta. Titan disrupts everything but Shop decks, and he provides the E-truth protection that I want.

Darkblast was pretty useless in general since there was no CS presence and I'm pretty sure there were 0 Jailers in the room, but having 2 maindeck assures that I have access to one when I want it. I'll consider running 2 main whenever I go to a tourney, depending what shows up. As for a second DR target in the Darkblast #2 slot, I've been extremely satisfied with just one since Grave-troll is usually there, however a second DR creature is might be necessary to guarantee one early - If you think you need a Titan on turn 2 to beat Long, for instance.

Thanks for getting the results up so quickly, TripleAgent!

Here is my attempt at a Tournament Report:


[Report] First Place at "Vintage Comes to Baltimore" Tournament


For reference here is my Decklist:

4 Serum Powder
4 City of Brass
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
3 Petrified Field
1 Strip Mine

4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
2 Darkblast

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Unmask
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
1 Ancestor's Chosen

SB:
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Emerald Charm
3 Wispmare


Petrified Field was the worst card in the list. I was only supposed to run 2, but I couldn't find a fourth Golgari Thug. I ran Ancestor's Chosen over the other options because Long and Shop Aggro composed probably half the decks there. I cut the third Darkblast in the board since CS was under-represented.


Anyway, this is how I remember my games playing out:

Round 1 vs Marc Frias, playing U/B/R Painter Combo w/ Drains, REBs, Wasteland and Timetwister.

Game 1 I win the die roll and elect to play first. My first hand contains Serum Powder, 2 Ichorid, Narcomoeba, Bridge from Below, and 2 Grave-troll. I think that might be too much to RFG, so I Paris to 5 and keep a hand with Bazaar and Unmask. He keeps his opening 7.

I drop Bazaar and activate dropping a Therapy, Ichorid and a dredger, then Unmask him, which he Forces pitching a Mana Drain. Pass. He plays a fetch and passes. I dredge and put Narcomoeba and Ichorid into play, then Therapy targeting him, he thinks, then reveals his hand on accident. I tell him I'm supposed to name a card first so he picks it up and I name the DT that I saw, leaving him with a Vamp. Mana Vault and fetch. He has nothing other than a turn 3 Wasteland, so its academic from there, but he was nice enough to play a Painter's Servant the turn before I attack with 3 Ichorids and like 8 tokens when he is at 10. So I finally know what he is playing.

Game two I shuffle in the SB and take out 15, bringing in Leyline removal and bounce. He looks at his hand of 7 then throws it back to stay at 6. I Mull to 6 also. I have turn 1 Chalice. He doesn't do anything relevant until my turn 2 upkeep: I just used Bazaar to dredge 12 cards, including 3 Cabal Therapy, 2 Narcomoeba, and a Bridge. Before my draw he Extirpates on Therapy. So I continue to dredge and attack for the win on turn 4 with Ichorids, tokens, and Dread Returned Grave-troll.

I win 2-0.


Round 2 vs Ralph Parsinitz playing Mono-Brown Shop Aggro

Ralph wins the die roll and plays first. I start with turn 0 Leyline of the Void, which ends up being amazing for me. He plays Shop, Metalworker. Pass. I just Bazaar dredgers into the yard and pass. He reveals a SoFI, Trike, Ravager, and a second worker and plays Ancient Tomb, Trike, Sword, and a Ravager, equips Sword to Triskelion and ends his turn.

I dredge and put a Narcomoeba into play and a Bridge in the yard. I then play my second Bazaar, activate to dredge and pass. Here I think Ralph makes a mistake and uses Tike to ping Narcomoeba and the Resulting token. He attacks me to 13 and draws off SoFI, plays the second worker and Ravager. On my turn I dredge and  get a few Narcomoebas and an Ichorid. I attack, but he blocks. Pass. On his turn he wastelands one of my bazaars and tries to grow Trike with Ravager, but I remind him Modular depends on the creature hitting the graveyard. He attacks me to 4. On my turn I dredge down to 4 cards in my deck, return Ichorids and Narcomoebas, then attack and Dread Return Ancestor's Chosen to gain 40 life. The 4 Bridges give me like 20 tokens and he scoops.

Game 2 I sideboard for the Leyline he doesn't end up having, but I'm sure to keep mine in for the Modular shenanigans, and to protect my Bridges. I mull to 6. He starts by putting Tormod's Crypt into play, Ancient Tomb, and a Sphere. I shrug and Bazaar cautiously. I don't remember all of the details, but he was mana-light after I Strip Mined him turn 2. He finally Crypts me on upkeep, taking a Bridge, an Ichorid, and Maybe one dredger. I then activate Bazaar and drop my other dredgers. I have to dredge pretty low (I think to 1 card) because I needed to hit the last black creature in my deck to attack for just enough.

I win 2-0.


Round 3 vs Nat Moes playing Belcher.

I know what he is playing, but he doesn't know I'm Ichorid. I convince him that I'm playing Force of Will, but I don't know if that affected his decision to mull to 5 or not. He plays first with Mox Ruby, Welder, go. I play Bazaar and dump Ichorid, Thug and Serum Powder. I Unmask (pitching Bridge, my only other black card was Darkblast, which I wanted to use on his Welder) seeing: Gutteral Response, Belcher, LED, and ESG. I take the LED. On my upkeep I dredge my Thug and hit a Grave-troll. I return Ichorid, dredge more, attack, get tokens and pass. He can do little else but weld Ruby into LED, I Darkblast in reponse. I eventually attack him out.

He is on the play again and keeps his hand of 6. He plays Ruby and 2 Rite of Flame into Belcher instead of Empty the Warrens. I Bazaar, Unmask a Tinder Wall (leaving him with Empty and Tinder Wall), then play Chalice and pass. He can't do much after my turn 2 Therapy for 2 Emptys in his hand (one he drew) and concedes the turn before I attack for lethal.

I win 2-0.

Round 4: ID

Round 5: ID

At 3-0-2 I'm in top 8.


Quaterfinals vs Jeff Folinus playing Grim Long.

I came into the top 8 knowing I was likely playing against Long, but I was dismayed to learn I was playing against Jeff. I used to test with him when we were in Undergrad together and he is a phenomenal player -- he is frequently in PTQ top 8's and has won his share of power over the last few years. He is easily the best player in the tournament and playing a deck that should destroy me. I think my only hope is to win the die roll and hit early disruption in games 1 and 3.

To my dismay he wins the roll and choses to play first. He keeps his opener while I mulligan to 4. We joked about how he hasn't had a turn 1 win yet this tourney and I haven't mulled to 1 yet, and this might be both. He doesn't have the turn 1, but he Duresses my Unmask and passes. I drop Bazaar and drop dredgers. He plays a Grim Tutor and passes. I dredge enough to Therapy him twice. I name Dark Ritual and miss the first one, then take his Jar which he can cast next turn. He topdecks Wheel of Fortune and draws into Rituals and Will.

I take my first and only game loss on the day.

I know his SB and the only graveyard hate he has for me is a pair of Extirpate. I board in lands and Charms, and I keep in Ancestor's Chosen because I'm on the play, and I might have a shot to use it. This game we both paris to 6 and keep. I lead with Bazaar and Chalice of the Void. He plays Ritual, Necro and pays 12 life. When he's done choosing his hand, I untap dredge, return an Ichorid, dredge more, attack and pass since I hit zero Cabal Therapy. It doesn't end up mattering since Chalice does all the work for me. On his last turn he attempts Wheel of Fortune, but doesn't hit the gas he needs.

Game three I board out Ancestor's Chosen and a Dread Return and put some cards back that might give me consistency. We both keep 7 and I play a turn 0 Leyline. He opens with Jet, Sapphire, Sea, Grim Tutor, pass. I play Bazaar and make my biggest misplay of the day: I discard a Cabal Therapy when I have a City of Brass in hand. I notice very subtle misplays I make with Bazaar activations all the time, but this one is glaring and I think it will cost me the game. I resolve a Chalice on zero and pass. Jeff draws then plays Tinker for Jar and ships the turn. On my turn two I get the nuts dredge: out of 18 cards I hit 3 Narcomoeba, 2 more Therapy, and the rest of my Bridges. I Therapy on Dark Ritual and see Ruby, Petal, Cabal Ritual, and Mind's Desire. I take the Desire and Ritual and end my turn with 12 zombies in play. Jeff Jars on upkeep, plays Ancestral, 2 Rituals, 2 Night's Whisper, Demonic Tutor, but can't do anything else.

I win the game and match and I'm shocked I could steal this one from such a skilled player with a superior deck. Chalice of the Void champs this match.

I win 2-1.


Semifinals vs Bryan St. Claire playing the so called "Next Level Tog"

I watched Bryan play all tournament to figure out exactly what he was playing. His deck supported Duresses, Force of Will, Mana Drain, Confidant, Trinket Mage, Counterbalance, Top, Cunning Wish, and a singleton Psychatog. I was most worried about his maindeck T. Crypt and Leylines + Pithing Needle post board.

I win the die roll and play first. We both keep 7 and I lead off with Bazaar, of course, and attempt a Chalice, which gets Forced. He plays land, Mox, Confidant, pass. I dredge and hit Narcomoeba and 2 Bridges. I Therapy him naming Trinket Mage and he shows me Mana Crypt, Sol Ring, and Force. I take my 2 zombies and pass. He plays mana and passes. I return an Ichorid and maybe hit more 'moebas, but he ends up block my Ichorid to remove the bridges, but 4 tokens are enough to take it down.

Game 2 I sideboard in 10 Leyline removal spells since I know he has them. Bryan ends up mulling to 4 and can't pull much together other than chain of vapor on an Ichorid turn 3. This game I hold back my second Ichorid and a Grave-troll in my hand just in case he rips a T. Crypt or Mage, but really it was just academic since he had no gas to start. I beat down with Ichorid, tokens and eventually a Grave-troll I believe, for the win. He never saw any hate cards against me, but I had the removal spells and the backup Ichorid + dredger just in case.

I win 2-0


Final vs Marc Frias playing Painter.

So in the finals I replay my first round match. I win the die roll and keep my opening hand of 7 that looks really solid: I have Bazaar, Unmask, Chalice and dredgers. But when he picks up his hand, he is completely honest that he didn't return his deck to an un-sideboarded state. And this would has been relevant since his last match was Ichorid. He gets a game loss.

Game 2 I sideboard in my Leyline removal. This is probably the longest game I had on the day, going to turn 7 or 8. He is excited to keep his 7 and puts a Leyline into play before I even look at my hand to see if I will mulligan. He takes it back when I tell him I didn't get to mulligan. I keep a hand of 5 with Bazaar, Gemstone, Chain of Vapor, Emerald Charm and Bridge from Below. He gets his turn 0 Leyline and turn 1 fetchland. I play Gemstone--> Emerald Charm right away to avoid Mana Drain. It resolves, so I pass. He plays a land and passes. I draw another Charm, play Bazaar and pass because I don't want to give him Extirpate targets on my turn. He casts Vampiric Tutor on Upkeep for Lotus, then plays Lotus into Leyline. I get excited because I have 2 answers and misplay by letting it resolve without activating Bazaar. Fortunately, he doesn't have backup and my EOT Emerald Charm resolves. I Bazaar, then take my turn activating again on upkeep. I still have no dredgers but all the Leyline removal in the world. I draw and play City of Brass. He plays land and passes. On my 4th upkeep I finally hit a Thug and dredge it for the turn. I still don't have guys, so he casts EOT Gifts Ungiven getting Extirpate, DT, Y. Will, and Timetwister. I bin the Will and Twister and give him DT and Extirpate. On his turn he Extirpates my Bridges but can't cast DT since he is out of black. On my upkeep I get things going with dredging, putting Ichorid and some number of Narcomoebas in play, attacking and Therapying the DT out of his hand. From here his life total goes 16, 13, 6, 0.

I win 2-0.


This was my first time playing Vintage since before Gifts was restricted and I lost only one game on the day to Jeff. I finished up 12-1 in games. I earned a Mox Emerald for my troubles.

Ichorid is a savage deck. Cabal Therapy and Chalice are insane while the rest of the disruption package is very solid. The consistency and speed of the deck is incredible.

Hey TMD, I recently moved to College Park, MD for Grad School and I'm looking for a vintage crowd to play with. Is there anyone in the D.C. area that plays type 1 and goes to tournaments? If you could post here I'll definitely get back to you. I definitely want to join a playgroup or make a new one.

So I'm thinking of coming out of retirement after over a year break. The format had some big changes since I played (Gifts restricted, Gush unrestricted, Manaless Ichorid invented, the Drednaught and Flash errata, Painter's Servant printed and finally the most recent list of restrictions).   

So, based on all that I did some research and got myself up-to-speed. Then I started looking at what might be popular based on some threads on TMD and a site I did not previously know - magiceternal.com. To me it looks like CS, Ichorid, Grim Long, Painter's decks, Stifle-Naught, and Shop decks are possible contenders, and maybe some fish in there.

The last deck I played in a Tournament was Grim Long, so I could just pick up from there, but since there isn't a set metagame yet, I was thinking I could try to put something else competitive and fun together. So I made a list of annoying cards I think will see play, and from there I could start Brainstorming (but only once, lol). That included:

Wasteland, Stifle, Duresses, Chalice, Leyline, Spheres, Magus, Null Rod, Pithing Needle, Tendrils

I tried to keep this list in mind while I scribbled down several ideas. I didn't plan on making a Stifle-Naught deck, but I thought it might be fun to play Dark Confidant and Trinket Mage, and it just happened. Other cards high on my list were FoW, Duresses, Stifle and Sensei's Divining Top. Before I quit my absolute favorite deck was Gifts, and I also liked SS at the time. All of those things are reflected in both of these decks.

I still don't know if there are any standard versions of this kind of deck, but here are a couple of versions I came up with:


Human Wizards
Version 1: Aggro-Control

(22 Mana)
5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Strip Mine
3 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
3 Island

(10 Creatures)
4 Dark Confidant
3 Trinket Mage
2 Ninja of Deep Hours/Dimir Cutpurse
1 Phyrexian Drednaught

(6 Tutors/Draw)
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Brainstorm

(18 Disruption)
4 Force of Will
3 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
3 Stifle
2 Spell Snare/Daze
2 Counterbalance
1 Echoing Truth

(5 Toolbox)
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Aether Spellbomb
1 T. Crypt/Pithing Needle

This is a two color, more Aggro-Control version that seems fun. I thought Ninjistsu on Trinket Mage might make for some insane CA, but might not happen that often. I stuck Counterbalance in there last, but haven't played it in a non-type 2 format. I don't know if Spell Snare is maindeck material, but could at least go in the side.


Human Wizards
Version 2: Less Aggro, more Control

(24 Mana)
5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Swamp
3 Island

(8 Creatures)
4 Dark Confidant
3 Trinket Mage
1 Darksteel Colossus

(11 Tutors/Draw)
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Brainstorm
3 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Yawgmoth's Will

(12 Disruption)
4 Force of Will
3 Mana Drain
3 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
1 Echoing Truth

(5 Toolbox)
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Aether Spellbomb
1 T. Crypt/Pithing Needle/Pyrite Spellbomb

Here I try for something more controlling and give the option for red cards in the sideboard (REB, RnR, Empty the Warrens), which I'm considering for the maindeck as well. This Started out as Stifle-Naught, but I thought Tinker-DSC might get it done just as well (plus I get to pull out Optimus Prime, my personal altered Tinker-DSC) .

Sideboards for either would contain some of the regulars: Engineered Explosives, Leyline, Yixlid Jailer, Extirpate, Pithing Needle, Hurkyl's Recall, Energy Flux (?), and maybe Sower of Temptation. REBs, Pyroclasm, Empty the Warrens and artifact destruction are also candidates for the red version.


I don't know how well either of these would do since I haven't tested. I don't have any of the cards - I sold out last year - so I'm appealing to your experience and knowledge of the format to help me decide if either of these, or some combination of the two, is worth investing in.

If you think I might be wasting my time, what other decks would you suggest? I played Gifts for over a year and Grim Long in Tournaments. I also played a lot of other combo, SS and the pre-Bridge/Narco/Wraith version of Ichorid. So I have that experience to bring to the new format. If anyone lives in the DC area, I'm going to need people to test with too.

Any suggests for either deck, decklists/links of decks similar to these would be a great help.