One sided instant Devastation Tide?



Evacuation just got outclassed.

Uncounterable Day of Judgement? Yes please.




Having the ACC rule just rocks.

Another fattie.



I cut Penumbra Wurm years ago, so I'm not quite sure about this.

 

So in essence, if you someone casts Marshal's Anthem returning Spawnsire of Ulamog and is attacking me with infinite 1/2 Eldrazi Spawn Tokens, I'm better off with Divine Deflection and WIN. Where as if someone had cast Inferno, then Shinning Shoal would be the nuts.

Generous Set IMHO







This is practically reads - Akroma's Vengence target player.



One sided Furnace of Rath - Yes Please.

With all the CIP triggers of creatures in most Stacks

Good bye Winding Canyons.

Exquisite Blood   
Enchantment    Rare
Whenever an opponent loses life, you gain that much life.
Even as humans regained the upper hand, some still willingly traded their lives for a chance at immortality.

~Wind of Death   
Instant    Common
Target creature gets -X/-X until end of turn.

~Natural Ending   
Instant    Common
Destroy target artifact or enchantment. You gain 3 life.

~Rain of Thorns 
Sorcery    Uncommon
Choose one or more -Destroy target artifact; or destroy target enchantment; or destroy target land.

Power Creep. We all know what it is. We've cut some of our 'pet' cards for simply 'better' cards as new sets come along. After a few years, we notice that some 'bombs' and 'staples' have fallen into mediocrity. I am currently in the middle of an over haul for my T4 Stack from when I last fully updated it back in Futuresight. [I have been low key due to change in life priorities].  Now some cards are just simply better 'upgrades' are a no-brainer. But some are more on the grey side. And I would like to find other peoples opinion on them.

Copy creatures. [which ones survived the cut]

Body Double
Clone
Cryptoplasm
Dimir Doppelganger
Evil Twin
Phyrexian Metamorph
Quicksilver Gargantuan
Sakashima, the Impostor
Shapesharer
Vesuvan Doppleganger
Vesuvan Shapeshifter


Copy Spells [for creatures - are they even worth it.]

Cackling Counterpart
Followed Footsteps
Rite of Replication
Spitting Image


*how to you make links for card names?

So from what I gather, if I control 2, the effects are cumulative. If me and the opponent control 1 each, then the effects are basically negated.

Thanks for the reply.

1GW Llanowar Tactician

Creature - Elf Soldier

[GW][GW] Sacrifice Llanowar Tactician: If G was spend to activate this ability, untap all creatures you control. If W whas used to activate this ability, remove all creatures from the game, return them to play at the beginning of the end step.

1/1

I was wondering how having Sakashima copying Giselda would work out. It's mostly dependent if the effect of having 'two' Giseldas is cumulative.

Duel scenarios.

01. You control both creatures. - Are the effects 'cumulative'.

02 You control 1 creature - Opponent controls other. - Do they effectively cancel each other?

Multi-player scenarios

01. You control both creatures

02. You control 1 creature, team controls the 2nd.

03. You control 1 creature, opponent team controls the 2nd.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Gisela. I know she doesn't have an immediate impact on the board, but she creates a game state that makes you quite resilient to loosing and putting All opponents in precarious situations.

New Set, New Cards

Godhead of Awe

While I'm surprised that Gush was unrestricted, I rather like the higher power vintage currently has. Everyone seem to agree that unrestricting Dream Halls wouldn't even be noticed by the Vintage population, I'm perplexed that no one has mentioned Fact of Fiction. With Gifts gone, FoF seems to be the next best thing to sink drain mana into. Although Gifts coming back out from the restricted list is not out of the question considering the power level of Flash and Gush, and I think it is something that should be seriously considered.

But so as not to turn Vintage into a "which merchant scroll deck to play?" meta game, Trinisphere could help balance things out, although I have my reservations on that suggestion not because Trinisphere is too busted for Vintage, but because 4 Serum Powder + 4 Trinisphere might be disastrously more powerful compared to any "4 Merchant Scroll + 4 <insert blue instant> deck. But hey, maybe Black Vise coming off the list will finally have a purpose aside from casual decks.

By the way, how many Library of Alexandria does a deck need for it to be too busted? Is there a certain deck design any of you can see being able to compete against the current meta game on the backbone of multiple LoAs? Or if one or more of my suggested cards were to be taken off the list as well? Just a question though...

Loosing blue means you loose Trinket Mage. You are sacrificing explosiveness to consistency. Being able to fetch Crypt/Needle/Spellbomb to fixing mana problems with Moxes, and the much debated Top is the backbone in which bomberman is able to last to make T8s. Dark Confidant cannot replace nor even match Trinket Mage in bomberman. Exactly how do you expect to find Lotus in any consistent manner now?

Instead of the usual cries/suggestion for restricting certain cards, wouldn't unrestricting be a lot more be a better or at the very least interesting development for Vintage?

Why restrict Gifts and unrestrict Gush?
How about we unrestrict Gifts back?

Why didn't Fact of Fiction get unrestricted before Gush?
Then unrestrict Fact.

Merchant Scroll is the best unrestricted tutor, and is the backbone of most blue based deck. Restrict it! Bring back Ritual-Storm!
Here is Burning Wish back.

What about Shop decks? We're already at a decline for a year now!
4 Trini....@#$@$...sphere. [With Serum Powder, are you crazy!?!?! - Just a lil diabolical]


My insight or foresight on what some or if all of these changes do happen can do for the metagame is probably narrower and shorter than more than half the people who have posted in this thread, so I'm putting it out there as an alternative. Instead of cutting out the possibilities of viable decks why not broaden it out? Sure it might be harder to pinpoint any given metagame accurately, but it's just like Legacy and it's quite a good thing in my opinion.

Heck, I think Regrowth, Personal Tutor, Entomb have no business in the restricted list with Gush out. But hey, bash me for those statement all you want. I'd sure want to know why they're there.

Thank you. I apologize if my grammar or sentence structure is confusing. I tend to cram too much things in one sentence. But just to be more accurate... I'll add something to that.

Please re-read my sentence without the contents in the brackets. I think you might have misunderstood my statement.

I don't recall saying Ichorid WILL/always/usually wins games 2-3. All I stated was that Ichorid players should expect to go to win no earlier than 4 turns post board especially game 2 when they are on the draw. If the opponent was unskilled/unlucky, then they win earlier/easier. If they are unskilled or their deck isn't tuned to face the hate, then they have completely lost by turn 3.

Decks win against Ichorid game 2 because they can pre-emptively slow down it's goldfish via established hate. Ichorid has a better chance winning game 3 because it can act before most hate comes down and is able to play it's own protection before the aforementioned hates are played. But Ichorid would have sided out a good part of it's combo cards for anti-hate cards and are inherently gonna be slower on it's own as well. Winning Ichorid is about winning game 1 in a blink of an eye, and being able to overpower hate game 3 through a long arduous struggle.

Games 2 - 3, it isn't unusual for Ichorid to go up to those many turns. Considering opponents mulling for Leyline, to playing their hate cards instead of 'going off' in whatever fashion their decks functions plus Ichorid's disruption [Chalice/Therapy/Unmask] and you got a fairly long game ahead of you. Bad Ichorid players tend to scoop too early or just have a horrible list that cannot fight through hate coming at them. But a competent Ichorid player with a tuned deck usually win games 2-3 [especially Game 2 wins] after turn 6 when paired up against good players with good decks.

Tyrant Oath is a totally different deck altogether in my opinion. But facing that particular deck, then Uba+Bridge is but a secondary 'strategy' against it. More importanlyly is to set Chalice @ 0-2. Granted dropping Chalice on all three numbers is every game is statistically improbable, but since Berts list runs SoRs + 3Sphere, then going infinite with Tyrant Oath is considerably harder. Maybe bounce a couple of permanents, but that is hardly game over considering the 5 turn clock of Tyrant [it's a 5/6 without haste if I remember correctly]. And yes, if Duplicant is a pretty good anti-Tyrant solution. I'm curious though as everytime I play against Tyrant-Oath, they either never get to Oath or they combo me on the spot, so I never really knew how many Tyrants are run in the build.

As for Powder Keg, I simply fail to see how it is better than E.Explosives. Everyone know thats that meta game is speeding up faster and faster, so why use keg? I find it so utterly slow in Legacy, much less Vintage. Against EtW tokens, I still believe Slice and Dice is a better hoser. Which incidently also kills Moeba + Hastened Ichorids + Orchard Tokens with the benefit of another draw. I find Keg to be superior only if you are trying to kill moxens on the table as Keg can be cast off Shop while Explosives can't be activated with it. Where as wanting to wipe the board of anything bigger, Explosives seems to be the better choice. Granted I'm taking a break from UbaStax as of the moment and learning combo and haven't tested on it lately so I could be overlooking something.

I'm surprised to see you write that Bridge isn't needed against Ichorid considering that you know better than 99% of Ichorid players that it takes more than just Leyline to win the Ichorid match up. Just looking at your latest Tournament Report where you answered Turn 0 Leyline almost all of the games, it suggest even more that Ichorid can win through Leyline when a competent player pilots a solid build. I understand you run SoR and Wastelands, but how do you prevent dying to Ichorid recursion considering your only other answer to it is your lone Karn.

I seriously suggest you re-consider Duplicant at least for the SB. It answers all aggro woes you might have. From the possible [inevitable comeback] of Quirion Dryad/Psychatog and the usual Bomberman and Fish running around.

Uba + E.Bridge = GG for Oath, Flash [san Disciple Kill], Ichorid, combat phase.dec with 4 SoRs, EoT Rebuild/Chain = GG is a lot harder to pull off.

Exactly how do you plan to attack with DSC with E.Bridge in play? Even without the lock. Not intending to make fun, but the two strategies are too "unsynergistic" [if that's even a word].

I strongly think that mana crypt should be in the deck.

If you up the count of Smokestax to 4, plus the 3 Monkeys already in the main, Crypt shouldn't be such a threat @ all. Crypt is certainly better than any of the off color moxen.

I don't like Tangle Wire in the build as well. I used to run a 5 Sphere configuration about a year ago and Wire is just to redundant with all the mana lock pieces you already have. I would go as far as saying Simian Spirit Guide would be a better card to include to help power out artifacts with 5Spheres and Rods and act as an extra win condition when you have a pretty good lock going on.

As far as Aggro creature is discussed, wouldn't Razormane Masticore [aka RazorCore] be the optimal choice. Especially since you aren't running Uba Mask anymore. But Ensnraring Bridge is still probably the better choice. [If you are actually able to decrease your hand while under the influence of 5spheres and Null Rod.]

You have to put into consideration that most of their lists are a straight up swap card per card with a few minor tweaks to accomodate the changes making it far from optimal. Add the fact the lack of experience they have with the 'new' deck will cost them to make significat suboptimal plays. Now compare that to your familliarity or I could even say 'mastery' of your own deck with a clear and definite game plan against ichorid which you are well versed with. Albeit this is reality and is expected, it does not neccessary reflect the strength of the deck.

What is the consensus on the pacts? I'm thinking it's a 'free' spell aka. doesn't count toward your 1/turn.

So far my picks are

Angel of Salvation
Pact of Salvation
Pact of Negation
Take Possesion
Vesner, Shaper Savant
Spellweaver Volute
Slaughter Pact
Riddle of Lightning
Scourge of Kher Ridges

Crop as mention earlier = 2nd of any land you have in the deck. From Maze of Ith to Library of Alexandria. Tolarian on the otherhand isn't as impressive without Moxes, being in a 100 card deck and the less consistency of having Academy and cheap artifacts on the board early in the game.

Restricting Trinisphere should make sense to anyone who's experience it's power. Mishra's Workshop shares the same weakeness as Tolarian plus it can only CAST ARTIFACTS.

As for the tutor question, I have no idea.

A deck can be built to abuse WGD. Cuz it's an engine. It wouldn't be that hard to find an animate enchantment with the many ways to filter draws, tutors [transmute ftw] and there are enough Bazaar-like and Compulsion like cards. [There should be at least 5 and numerous ways to find them] Instead of banning ALL the tutors and hinder other combo-set up possibilities, just banning this one card would make more sense.

Not sure if this is some sort of sarcasm or serious comment. Please elaborate.

Djinn Illuminatus and Suspend Cards. Specifically the no casting cost ones. [Hypergenesis, Wheel of Fate]

Pretty much Djinn's Text reads as...

Each instant and sorcery spell you play has replicate. The replicate cost is equal to its mana cost. (When you play it, copy it for each time you paid its replicate cost. You may choose new targets for the copies.)

Can I replicate the Suspend cards? If yes, and are their CMC? or more importantly their Replicate Cost?

Sword of Paruns is also in my stack. Goes practical-win or insta-kill with enough creatures in the stack.