what do you think about my list? there is no vault combo, no tendrils or brain freeze since i think these take space and waste slots in the early game. i hate seeing krosan rec, iona, flash or the artifact combo tools in my hand. oathing is always (or nearly always) a prerequisite for going off with the alternate win. yes, there are situations you get 2 combo parts and win.
but how often does that happen? and how often do you have iona on your hand? its the only creature in vroman oath.... i see a problem here.

my win plan is just oath up sphinx or tinker sphinx.
2 sphinxen means consistency compared to sphinx/iona and lets me for sure get a sphinx even when i have one on the hand. its a very nice tinker target.

i'm not sure about the drains and cards like lim-duls, the amount of basic lands Ä(czrrently i just play 1 island because colored mana is so damn necessary, about imperial seal, senseis top, skeletal scrying, mind twist or fact or fiction.

input wanted!

another question: is just voltaic key and time vaullt enough for hte combo? or do i neew something else? i want the least amount of necessary cards for an alternative win option. another would be cunning wish for brain freeze but i think without having oathed and having had luck with that its much worse than voltaic vault.

Here is my decklist it runs fiarly well.
what do you think about it? i have so far no really bad matchups (maybe ichorid but who hasnt)

stax: oath, natures claim, flux, early counters/seize
control: lots of cheap control elements
fish: if i can prevent trygon/meddling somehow (seize helps here) game is fine. sphinxen help a lot while racing. tinker --> sphinx immediately stops trygon to help oathing up more

Qty   ED   Name   Cost   Type   Rarity   Color
      // Lands            
1   7E   Island      Basic Land - Island   C   Lnd
1   OV   Library of Alexandria      Land   R   Lnd
1   U   Tropical Island      Land - Forest Island   R   Lnd
2   A   Underground Sea      Land - Island Swamp   R   Lnd
4   ON   Polluted Delta      Land   R   Lnd
2   ZEN   Misty Rainforest      Land   R   Lnd
1   DPA   Swamp      Basic Land - Swamp   C   Lnd
4   CHK   Forbidden Orchard      Land   R   Lnd
1   US   Tolarian Academy      Legendary Land   R   Lnd
      //\\            
      // Creatures            
2   ARB   Sphinx of the Steel Wind   5WUB   Artifact Creature - Sphinx   M   Gld
      //\\            
      // Spells            
1   6E   Mystical Tutor   U   Instant   U   U
2   LG   Mana Drain   UU   Instant   U   U
1   ON   Chain of Vapor   U   Instant   U   U
1   MM   Misdirection   3UU   Instant   R   U
3   ZEN   Spell Pierce   U   Instant   C   U
2   LRW   Thoughtseize   B   Sorcery   R   B
4   EX   Oath of Druids   1G   Enchantment   R   G
1   A   Black Lotus   0   Artifact   R   Art
1   5E   Brainstorm   U   Instant   C   U
1   B   Ancestral Recall   U   Instant   R   U
1   LRW   Ponder   U   Sorcery   C   U
1   A   Mox Sapphire   0   Artifact   R   Art
1   A   Mox Ruby   0   Artifact   R   Art
1   B   Mox Pearl   0   Artifact   R   Art
1   B   Mox Jet   0   Artifact   R   Art
1   U   Mox Emerald   0   Artifact   R   Art
1   OV   Vampiric Tutor   B   Instant   R   B
1   R   Sol Ring   1   Artifact   U   Art
1   PR   Mana Crypt   0   Artifact      Art
1   A   Mana Vault   1   Artifact   R   Art
1   UL   Tinker   2U   Sorcery   U   U
4   AL   Force of Will   3UU   Instant   U   U
1   A   Demonic Tutor   1B   Sorcery   U   B
1   A   Time Walk   1U   Sorcery   R   U
1   US   Yawgmoth's Will   2B   Sorcery   R   B
1   CHK   Gifts Ungiven   3U   Instant   R   U
1   A   Regrowth   1G   Sorcery   U   G
1   8E   Merchant Scroll   1U   Sorcery   U   U
1   M11   Preordain   U   Sorcery   C   U
1   P3   Imperial Seal   B   Sorcery   R   B
1   CHK   Sensei's Divining Top   1   Artifact   U   Art
      //\\            
      // Sideboard            
1   LRW   Thoughtseize   B   Sorcery   R   B
3   WWK   Nature's Claim   G   Instant   C   G
3   5E   Energy Flux   2U   Enchantment   U   U
1   R   Hurkyl's Recall   1U   Instant   R   U
1   UL   Rebuild   2U   Instant   U   U
1   ZEN   Iona, Shield of Emeria   6WWW   Legendary Creature - Angel   M   W
1   DIS   Simic Sky Swallower   5GU   Creature - Leviathan   R   Gld
1   DS   Echoing Truth   1U   Instant   C   U
3   DK   Tormod's Crypt   0   Artifact   U   Art

This decklist formatting is a mess.  Please make it easier for people to decipher next time.  -DA

As is said before the restriction was just crap.
All what should have been restricted was the Merchant Scroll. This would have the effects:
-thinning out Flash's tutors, but Flash would be still playable
-Fish would have kept its single faster drawing cards
-Gushbond would in some (difficult) way still be playable
-not so many crappy aggro decks would come up. T1 is still a format of speed and high-tech for me. Now it seems to be just a T1.5 copy.

Merchant Scroll is the only key card which was relly necessary to be restricted. Less Gush- and Ancestral Recall-tutors (well, it's very difficult imo without the 4 Scrolls to get the combo engine rolled here) but ALL important decks still in the format.

I just don't like the format without Fish, Gushbond and Flash being strong and always being on the search for some crappy BS replacement.

Yes, it is not reactive (aka FoW, Drain or Bounce) and doesnt find any solution. Thats the main problem.

The only idea i have here is to maximize the threat density and try to focus on the pure lock.

My list to reach this would be:

4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

3 Karn, Silver Golem

4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Thorn of Amethyst   
1 Trinisphere
4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Orb of Dreams

4 Uba Mask

1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Vault

SB:
3 Jester's Cap
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Razormane Masticore
3 Triskelion
3 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

I have question because there is very little resonance to this thread:
Am I overseeing something? Some problem matchups for this deck? Or where does the lack of interest come from? Why is all the discussion these days about aggro decks or blue decks?
Is the Tendrils-matchup much worse for Stax than I thought? Can Drain-Tendrils easily go off via Tutor-->massbounce-->Combo in turn 5 against Stax? Does Oath beat Stax easily? Does aggro hit it hard?

I thought this deck is very strong but maybe you can correct me and tell me which the problem matchups are and why it is not played so much these days. I don't have any real life tournament practice.

Imo it's the Null Rod.
It's disappointing that so many card which are very playable in Prison like Jester's Cap, Karn, Triskelion, Tormod's Crypt etc are nullified by it.
So the question is if 4 Null Rods are worth the significant changes in the deck build, regarding that including cards like Mana Crypt is questionable now and the reliance on nonstandard lands becomes higher.

When not playing the rod it depends on the opponent. Imo the spheres are the second best card in Prison, followed by Chalice, Smokestack, Tangle Wire.

Hi,
I think I will not play with the Worker. It is only good as a turn 1 drop, so it has to be played 4 times, and with the 2-mana-lands I can play the expensive cards most of the time without big problems. Even in a field with a lot of control decks Metalworker is not compulsarily good (but in these matchups Stax wins 80% anyways imo). You lost a card to play. I think a sphere is better here, especially vs Tendrils turn 1. In a Wasteland-heavy field I have to count on my 2 Crucibles SB.

Tendrils-decks are no problem if they don't go off totally fast, we got Spheres, Chalice and Wastelands.
Belcher can be handled by Null Rod, but since we play a lot of Artifacts, Karn and Jester's Cap these 3 cards are better than Null Rod imo since they are very flexible.
Slaver is handled very nicely by Jester's Cap.
Null Rod stops combo and Belcher and is fast, Karn can only slow down the opponent's mana development but has the flexibility to help against more decks (aggro), Jester's Cap is nice against faster decks like Dragon or Oath (can be activated turn 2-3).
But Tormod's Crypt seems good in the meta, a modification to the SB would be: + Crypt, + Crucible -2 Tabernacle, but the Tabernacles really help against the Zombie tokens and fast aggro decks....maybe + Crypt - Razormane

No one made a comment on my 4 Triskelions so far. Don't you think they help a lot main against nearly each deck? I see it as a stopper against Ichorid, Slaver, Fish (Confidant, Kataki), all enerving small-creature-aggro. The Karns are also really good since they eat Moxen and turn my lockdown artifacts into big creatures.
Trisks kill Viashino Hereti, Welder. Against red Stax I dont think this list has a very weak matchup.
After SBing I have 4 Trisk, 4 Razormane (which kills both Welder and Heretic without using my mana resources) vs. 4 Welder and 3 Heretic (normally).

If anyone has an idea which card could be replaced by an other card which has has more effectiveness I would be highly interested.

EDIT: Who thinks this version is stronger than red Stax? Who think it is not? Why?
How do you think the combo matchup is like (against Belcher and Tendrils)?

I think this list has a great potential. I always like double or triple ways to win so that hateing the deck is not easy. To abuse the tyrant you should find bounce and 2 moxen, bounce a mox, then bounce his board and/or go for the freeze-kill. Or just find the 2nd Mox. I think this is your plan.
The only fear i have is that some spells of the deck depend too much on other cards (Deep Analysis needs the Bazaar to be honest) or are a bit tpoo expensive to guarantee that the turn after Gifts leads you to victory (drawing into analysis or Intuition). Maybe add a Dark Ritual and a Mystical tutor and cut the Analysis and one Intuition.

The problem is: What do you do in your post-Gifts turn? Lets say you have no Tyrant in play (since him alone will let you win so you wouldnt need the Gifts-->storm-kill). So you have some mana on the table (lets say 6) and Lotus, Will and some draw in the grave. Recoup on hand. Does this really rock so well? I think you will often have mana problems. Without the Tyrant you won't kill with Gifts-Will often.

So tell us your strategy what you play to do after Gifts is played. My ideas would be:
-Chain the board, play Cunning, play Freeze --> storm-count is too low, too much mana investment
-play a Rebuild main (you should fear Stax decks) and maybe squeeze in Tendrils to have a win path with a lower storm count but this doesnt seem to be too effective

Some testing of this deck with Metalworkers included showed me the following:

pro:
-they let you play your whole hand on turn 2
-they are extremely strong if you play a 2nd turn Cloister since you can play now 2 permanents each turn even under 2 Spheres
-they are extremely good in a Wasteland-heavy meta

con:
-you often have to chose "metalworker or threat?" on turn 1 which is sometimes really difficult
-they are worth nothing on their own, they are just a mana source
-in the long run they are only good with permanent draw

Crucible and Metalworker help in mirrors. One of these 2 is needed imo, this is the reason for the 2 Crucibles in my SB. Cloisters also shine in the mirror.

Ichorid is a matchup which can be managed but imo the win percentage is still lower than 50% after SB'ing. Ensnaring Bridges, Tabernacles, Crypts and Triskelions for the win, Spheres should prevent spells but cost a turn.

Where are the deck's weaknesses? This is the most important question.
Storm has an auto-loss, aggro is handled by the big creatures and the nice draw, Flash is gone, control is weaker and slowed by spheres. Maybe Dragon, Ichorid and Oath? Belcher?

Hi again,

since blue decks are much weaker now i think this archetype is the strongest one.
I don't have much time, so i just post my current list.
I think Cloister is much better than the Bazaar-Top engine, using less slots, is strong on its own and improves quantity. It's not a turn 1 card for sure, but its a turn 2-3 card, leading you to victory if you survive the next 1-2 turns imo.
The Caps main are questionable since Flash has lost the meta. But since there is Ichorid, Oath and some combo out there i think it's one of the best answers for good game against these.
I see no weak matchups for this deck.

4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

3 Karn, Silver Golem
4 Triskelion
                               
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Thorn of Amethyst   
1 Trinisphere
4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Jester's Cap

4 Bottled Cloister

1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Vault

SB:

1 Jester's Cap
4 Razormane Masticore 
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Crucible of Worlds (good against other Stax and Fish)
2 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Ensnaring Bridge 

EDIT (answer to Abdullah):
Of course you could exchange the Caps to Crucibles or Metalworkers or add another Sphere. Triskelions are a good thing imo, even without Flash. What are thoughts about the other cards?
Jar is of course a damn good card. Without Flash it's really playable. The only problem it has is that under a Sphere or two you can't play as many cards as you could normally, but playing a Workshop, a mox and 2 permanents after breaking the Wheel is still really good.

The problem with the 1-mana-lands is that the probability of a nice start is reduced. Of course a late game Ghost Quarter can be nice, but if you face a lot of Basics I would rather cut a Wasteland for a Ghost Quarter than reducing the 2-mana-land count.
They are necessary since they are the strongest way to abuse the Spheres which are the backbone of the deck. They help a lot preventing Energy Flus to be casted.
 But you don't have to play all 9 spheres, I think the minumum is 7.

The draw engine: Hax, I respect your success in the tournaments, but the qualitative card "draw" seems to have some weaknesses, regarding that monobrown Stax has to explode during the first two turns. What also comes into my mind: Stax has no shuffeling effect what makes Top a bit worse. So you NEED the "synergy" of Top and Bazaar to dig fast enough.
Only Top is just not good enough without shuffeling, having only Bazaar is OK but without Uba Mask not really worth the lost land drop.
Since this deck counts on the 2-mana-lands, a lost landdrop is hard to compensate. Another point: Top must be replayed through spheres. I don't know how much this really matters but i didnt find Cloister to be castable so hard, maybe that's because I play many 2-mana-lands and no Bazaars.
This is my theoretical view, maybe in real games it's different.

Botlled Cloister's only disadvantage is that it makes me fear artifact mass bounce, as i wrote. I don't know what you expect, but drawing an additional card by an easily castable permanent without receiving any damage is just very good.

Ensnaring Bridge doesn't let you attack with the big ones, that is a flaw. But is shuts down attacks immediately, letting you wait for Razormane to clear the board, sacrifice it to Smokestack and attack.
Tabernacle also seems nice here. It's not so strong against decks with a solid mana base like RG Beats but it slows down, lets them tap out and so supports the mana disrution plan of Stax.
Both have advantages and disadvantages. I think all in all the Bridge is the most solid way to go. But only if you play some quantitative card draw because you need the Razormanes to start your attack later in the game.
Additional Powder Kegs, like in my SB, help to shoot all tokens.

Mishra's Factories have no place in lockdown decks since they produce 1 mana and are only good in the long run where you should have Karn or something on hand.

What are your thoughts about 4 maindeck Trisks? I think they improve the critical matches a lot.

The prob about this draw engine is: You need 2 parts. AND there is no card advantage. Did you test it with good results?
Imo opinion (regarding the high redundancy in this deck) a quantitative draw engine would be better (if there was no mass bounce).

Hi unicoerner (from zkforum ),

there are big differences between R-Stax and Brown-Stax.
The deck you suggest has a relatively different playstyle from the deck which is discussed in this thread.

-->R-Stax:

-Welder-tricks
-UbaMask-Lock
-UbaMask lets you abuse the Bazaar
-less disruption, more synergies
-abuses the grave
-CotV at 1 is often a misplay since you can draw Welder in one of the following turns. Mono-Brown loves to play CotV at 1.

-->Brown-Stax:

-total focus on disruption (don`t let him play anything, eat/tap his resources and permanents)
-easier casting of fat artifacts since you don't have to play red lands

But don't let us discuss about the red version, the thread is about the brown one.
There is a nice thread existing about brown vs. red.

Hi mike,

if you don't think that mass-bounce like H. Recall or Rebuild is played in opponents sideboards, Cloister is the strictly superior card. But as far as i understood, Casting mass bounce in response to the remove trigger removed my entire board.
The list is really disruptive. This is why i don't want to play Metalworker. He gives mana but nothing more. And this deck doesn't have problems to cast big artifacts and the turn Metalworker is played tends to be a wasted one (of course playing Worker and playing the whole hand the next turn is huge, but you have 1 less disruption card to be played now) and the meta is fast.

The question about Crucible is hard to answer. The Crucible has 2 main purposes for me:
-saving my Workshops (important to keep up the pressure)
-recurring Wastelands (combined with Cloisters you get the Wasteland on the hand relatively fast, a small synergy)
-ramping Smokestack high, combined with the Cloisters which give me an additional permanent each turn

You must decide. I have no idea about a better card in these 3 slots. If i would't like the Crucibles maybe i would play Orb of Dreams here. You could make Cruci more effective by adding 1 Ghost Quarter, but this is somehow not optimal.
Dupes are nice but can only be used once. I think Pentavus is much better here.....maybe Triskelavus....

Against all Oath/Flash/combodecks the way to go is Jester' Cap. Stop opponent's actions until you can activate the cap. Not easy but once you got the Cap it nearly gg.

EDIT: I am not totally sure about the Crucible, as I said. I marked the cards i could imagine a change with a questionmark.
I think the maindeck should stay totally focused on permanent and spell-playing disruption (although you could aindeck Jester's Cap in combo metas).

Good cards which could also be played are:
-Orb of Dreams
-Winter Orb
-Ensnaring Bridge
-Pentavus(Triskelavus)

Has anyone thought about Grafted Skullcap?
I often tested this deck and Bottled Cloister was always the last spell I played since all lockdown should definitely be played first. So the discard effect of G. Skullcap shouldn't have such a high impact, although not being ignorable. This would provide a strong draw without the fear of bounce.
But it should be sided out against each deck where R. Masticore is borded in of course. I can't see any creature being better against all aggro-decks than the Razormane Masticore, maybe you know one?

What do you think? The actual list would be:

4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

2 Karn, Silver Golem
4 Triskelion                                 ? This one kills early permanents and annoying threats like Welder, Kataki, Virulent Slivers etc. IMO really good

4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Thorn of Amethyst    ? number
1 Trinisphere
3 Crucible of Worlds     ?
4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
4 Chalice of the Void

4 Grafted Skullcap/Bottled Cloister

1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Vault

SB:

4 Jester's Cap
4 Razormane Masticore
1 Karn, Silver Golem      ? good against aggressive aggro
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Powder Keg             ?nice and flexible but not THE huge card. I think Ensnaring Bridge could replace this one nicely


Since there are many artifacts in the deck I think T. Crypt is better than Null Rod against combo.
Against control the deck has a gg, against combo there is lots of hate, against aggro it's not easy as far as i see.

@ the main problems aka Flash, Tyrant Oath and Ichorid:

-what helps against Tyrant Oath? More Duress, some bounce
-what against Ichorid and Flash? Maybe Pithing Needle and LEYLINE.

There are not so many options to tune Flash against these 3 decks. Or am I wrong here?

IMO Reverent Silence doesn't make sense anymore since the new kill is hated by much more.
More Bounce and Duresses seem better.

I think the optimal SB for a non-special meta is something like:

-1 Echoing Truth
-1 Rushing River
-4 Leylines
-2 Pithing Needle / 2 Duress
-1 Tinker
-4 Oath
-2 Platinum Angel

Trygon Predators seem perfect but somehow too slow. I think Rushing River is a must since you can bounce 2 totally different permanents like a Leyline and a P. Needle. There is no other blue card able to do this.

What do you think of the
SB: Gifts-Y. Will- ETW- plan? I think it's quite cool. Small and effective.

A few more comments since nothing's going on here:

The Tidespout Tyrant could definitely be an answer to slower decks. While not being able to use Pacts of Negation to get the Oath through you could also board in some Duress and make sure you cast the spell successfully.
Playing Bounce brings a moxen on hand and you clear his board with 2 Tyrants. Very nice! Again Merchant Scroll help a lot here since it gives you the bounce you need.

I wait for the day Merchant Scroll becomes restricted (but since that would destroy Gush-based decks, Wizards has a problem).

Having Carrion Feeder is not a problem btw since you can just hardcast him before you go in the combo. This is not optimal, but a way to win with 1 more mana.

Is this correct: If i have got 2 combo-creatures on hand I can't combo out (since Body Snatcher only lets me discard 1)? Mogg Fanatic is also hardcastable with Orchards, this would make Orchards Main even better....

Seems like it depends on the meta. I think Platinum Angel and opposing blockers are the only real points the Sliver Kill player cares about.
Playing the combo while the opponent is tapped out or tricks like playing Flash during his combo, or shooting some Blazing Archon or over a Moat will be rare and suboptimal.

So if you fact lots of Ichorid (Narcomoeba, Zombies), Goblins (, Fish) and Tinker-->Angel Reveillark is better.
In the meta of Stax, Gush-combo, Tyrant Oath, Ichorid and Flash (maybe Deez Noughts) the Sliver kill seems a bit stronger.

And the "having a clock" Hydra posted only counts as a clock if you don't see an increasing number of blockers each turn. A Qurion Dryad blocks each sliver.

4 Dreadnoughts with Meddling Mage on Echoing Truth is also a nice kill variant. You could play this alternative kill even when you play Orchards main, this is pretty cool....but its no instant kill, that makes it much less playable.

Lemnear,

of course your points make sense.
We should discuss the optimal kill first before talking about playing Forbidden Orchard mainboard.

Which kill are the players here prefering and why?
I like the Sliver kill a bit more because its resistance to lots of hate.

Why are you so sure? They both have pros and cons.
The Reveillark combo is so easy to hate. A direct damage spell, SwordsTP, Planar Void, Tormods Crypt, Leylines, Withered Wretch, Pithing Needle, Extirpate. But i still think it is pretty good because you have bounce and Thoughtseize/counters.
The big pro is that you can explode in any time of the game and don't lose to stupid blockers, also ETW-tokens. Since the Oath-SB solves this problem of creature-heavy opposing decks, i would like a bit more to run the Slivers main, but the 4 free SB slots are really nice.

I would suggest to think about 2-3 Trygon Predator SB, if you have free space. It solves most of the problems. A nice point would also be: You could bring in Oaths and the Predators vs. Stax I think about cutting the Time Walk and the Rushing River for 2 Predators since these cards aren't absolutely necessary. After a Will-Turn--> ETW i actually don't need Time Walk because i should have some counters on hand and thoughtseized him once.

The problem of the Pacts is that they are only good when you already have the combo on hand. This often means you were tutoring around for some time. During this time Pact is useless. Imo it's more necessary to find the combo parts than protecting it too much because in the time you search you will probably find the needed protection.

Has anyone tried the 3rd kill from my SB? I find the Oath/Gifts combination quite nice. Oath is a "1-card-combo" and while the opponent tries to solve the Angel problem i lean back and look if i can get the combo together. Ok, not THIS easy, but i think it's strong against slower combo-decks which use the time I oath up angels to win with a protected E. Truth.

I don't want to play Tyrant by myself, anthough this would also be a nice idea for a more controlish win against permanent-heavy decks.
Tyrant seems better against all slower decks like Stax or Gush-decks with no explosive kills. If you don't like the 3rd win condition you could play Blazing Archons, SSSwallowers, anything.
Why shouldn't I argue with the Orchard? If i play it main and i know i will face an Oath player I will keep my starting hand when there is an Orchard on it with some tutoring stuff.
I don't say the Oath plan kills everything and it is definitely weaker than a well-tought-through Tyrant Oath but it is much more flexible. You have many must-counters.

The Fish matchup is imo not as easy as you think. When there comes a Leyline/Needle 1st turn and I have to tutor around for a while, it is pretty probable that i get duressed along this way. Against Fish, I would always board out 15 cards for the alternative SB. How should they board against Oath/ETW? They have to dilute their answers.

Game 3 i would board back or not, trying to guess what the opponent does during his 2nd boarding.

Leyline and Gifts: Of course the Leyline shuts down Gifts AND Flash, but not Oath and Gifts. If I board in Oath i still have 5 useless cards in the deck. So i would bring in the Gifts etc. If he smelled that i bring in Oath (what he will) I have a nice 2nd kill which abuses the gy. But when he smelled Oath being brought in he didn't bring in much GY hate. I just would like to have a 3rd kill variant and the Gifts--> ETW is the smallest i could think of.

You could also pack the Flash-kill in the SB and the Oath/Gifts main

I am also not thinking that Flash is unbeatable. You have to get a card which is in the deck as a 4-of, you do this via slower tutors what means you normally combo out turn 2-3. This gives the opponent enough time to find answers. I often enjoyed playing against Flash with my Fish deck, too.

I think Flash's main disadvantage are the combo parts which really have no use as a stand-alone. Your deck can use most of its parts in any time of the game. It concentrates on a few win conditions which means there can be lots of hate played.

The deck has problems against Stax (like each deck), the manabase is a bit weak. I am not sure if the deck should be hyped too much. Ok, in the current meta it could be cool, but it can lose to normal aggro decks with some GY hate. I would always board Leylines against it. And losing a lot of the draw in the grave by Leyline while searching for an answer (called Fastbond or Chain of Vapor) takes time and lets the other player Duress you. And for a nice combo the GY IS needed or the Fastbond IS needed, no matter what people say here..

I just wanted to say that this deck also got it's flaws. There is no best deck, and this is good.  Maybe you think about playing Oath-SB

Hi,

could you please tell me why and how a further Carrion Feeder helps? What is the mechanism here?

Maybe Benevolent Bodyguard serves more purposes than the 2nd Feeder.

I know, the "Rebuild-plan" is time-consuming. You have to play it more agressive than in decks where you have a huge draw-engine and more counter. You are right, there is less mana played, less artifacts. This is the reason i have put ETW in the SB and not Tendrils.
It does not HAVE to be Rebuild, it could also be just some Chain of Vapor. But since you lose the lands here i thought about an option saving me from this. The Rebuild would of course be used when i got lots of Moxen or am in the Yawgmoths Will action where it doesnt matter so much anymore.

But what do you think of the central aspect of the SB: The Gifts is tutored by Merchant Scrolls, going for the Yawg-Win?
The draw is not really amazing, thats right, but 1st Scroll for Anc, 2nd for Gifts seems solid imo. Some other Scroll for Mystical Tutor--> Tinker. During some turn you will manage dropping an Oath, you shouldnt forget that. Dropping the Oath is a big shift in the game.
The ETW for 8-16 token followed by a Time Walk hopefully is just another kill variant.
I also would like to steer your view on the small synergy between oathing and getting Yawgwill on hand to play the grave.
This is of course a bit risky because the Will could be oathed away. But since i got a Platinum Angel after oathing and there will come more.....this is not very relevant. If you fear Echoing Truth, don't Oath further having 1 Angel in play or Oath further if you have got a Brainstorm.
From time to time you can get a nice fat will after oathing an Angel. Just as a sidenote.


Since the deck has a fast kill and the Sideboard transforms it into something completely different which looks similar to a real Oath deck pre-SB, i have no idea what could be really useful as further SB cards. So the Gifts idea came up. ETW is something where Stifles help against and since these will be boarded out if the player smells that you bring in Oath, there is a 3rd kill which he couldn't count on.
You could even reduce the 3rd kill on 3 cards: Gifts, Y. Will and ETW.

What yould be necessary as a SB card? Leylines? Orchards SB and the old Sliver kill Main? Some Tarmogoyfs? First we should fix what the problem matchups are.

-Tyrant Oath? --> I don't think so since we have Orchards main
-Stax? --> Yes, not easy. Go for Oath.
-Fish --> How should they board?
-Ichorid? --> IMO a fast Oath for Platinum Angel is the best thing you can do here since Merchant Scroll action cries for Cabal Therapy. Here could some Leylines be useful. Having a Leyline or an Oath on the starting hand is pretty much gg.
-GAT? - Well....with Oath how could this deck win?
-Gush-storm - hm. Flash doesn't like everything with Duresses and lots of counters. But which card hates Gush-storm? Duress. Not an easy matchup. But Flash can't really do a lot to improve it imo without hurting itself too much.

this is my noob analysis.   Any comments? I really can't see any necessary SB cards.

A Toughtseize/Pact plan is imo better than just only pacts because you can "counter" something before you combo out. I like more the flexible style than the pure combo-style. Think about Extirpate.

What about:

4 Polluted Delta
1 Island
1 Swamp if Thoughtseizes/Duress Main, 1 more Island/U.Sea otherwise
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
4 Forbidden Orchard

?


EDIT: The Gigadrowse is a cool idea

Look at my list.
I think the various ways of winning let the opponent sweat. Rebuild takes out multipli Needles and Crypts eot, Thoughtseize can get Extirpates. You can go for
Gifts-->Will-->ETW-->Walk, bring Oath in, bring in Tinker/Platz, leave the Flash-Combo in and bring in the Gifts-Win.....


It would be fantastic if the Slivers could be squeezed in somehow but they just don't fit together well with the Orchards. This would mean: Orchards SB, what takes very much room.
You have to decide for the win options.
I think Fanatic kill and Sliver Kill have both their advantages, not sure which one is better.

But this is my actual list:

4 Polluted Delta
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Underground Sea
4 Forbidden Orchard
1 Tropical Island
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
4 Force of Will
2 Pact of Negation
4 Thoughtseize
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Brainstorm
2 Summoner's Pact
1 Ponder
1 Imperial Seal
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Flash
4 Protean Hulk
1 Body Snatcher 
1 Body Double     
1 Reveillark         
1 Mogg Fanatic     
1 Carrion Feeder       

SB:

4 Oath of Druids
3 Platinum Angel (great against Ichorid, great with Pacts) - alternatively 3 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rushing River
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Rebuild/ Regrowth
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmots Will
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tinker

In my opinion there are a few things to consider about this deck:

What should be used as a "hate-engine"? Daze is just not good enough here because the deck lacks mana denial. Pact is too narrow to be played 4 times imo, even with the new kill. It is too optimistic to count on the upkeep flash kill. 3 is the max number imo.
Why are counters played? To prevent the opponent's hate and countering. So there sould be played Duress-effects. Thoughtseize is much better than Duress here because of the quick win (turns 1-4).
Narrow counters like Misdirection should not be played as more than 2-ofs.

And the most important point: Look at Flash's SB strategy. What do you always see there? Hate against Leyline. So my idea would be (as posted before in this forum) to play an alternative win in the SB. An Oath-Engine. Simple but strong imo. Maybe even a 3rd kill: My SB allows to win by Gifts--> Will.
There should be bounce of 3 different cc to have a chance vs. Stax starting the game (Spheres are very good against Flash, believe it or not).
I think in this configuration it is extremely hard to board against, you even don't know what you are playing against.

What should be the maindeck win so? If you face a creature-heavier game i suggest the new kill, if not: the old kill (Slivers).
If you play the new kill maindeck, the cool thing is: You can play the Orchards in the maindeck which also improves your pre-SB Oath matchup (this point is really unimportant). seeing lots of blockers doesn't disturb this deck, you don't have to hurry.

Since i don't like the Summoner's Pacts TOO much i packed an Imperial Seal as a more general tutor (also for Oath post-SB) and cut the ESG, because its not really worth the spacewhen I went down to 2 Pacts.

My deck:

4 Polluted Delta
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Underground Sea
4 Forbidden Orchard
1 Tropical Island
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
4 Force of Will
2 Pact of Negation
4 Thoughtseize
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Brainstorm
2 Summoner's Pact
1 Ponder
1 Imperial Seal
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Flash
4 Protean Hulk
1 Body Snatcher 
1 Body Double     
1 Reveillark         
1 Mogg Fanatic     
1 Carrion Feeder       

SB:

4 Oath of Druids
3 Platinum Angel (great against Ichorid, great with Pacts) - alternatively 3 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rushing River
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Regrowth (nice to get Ancestral back or Y. Will if it was oathed in the grave)
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmots Will
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tinker

What do you think? Maybe you want 1 more Pact of Negation in the main and cut something for it.
You could even play the SB: -Duress/Tinker - 4 X + 5 Slivers (but Forbidden Orchard Main nerves here).
I would like to include 2 more Pacts (each one: one more), 1 Misd and an ESG but i can't find room.

I think the build is quite strong, although there is much more hate against it in the field: SwordstP, Needle, Tormod's Crypt....

But i have one question: If a part of the combo creatures (not the Hulks) is in my hand: Can i win the game? If yes, how? Is there a creature which should never be in your hand when comboing out? I think it's the Body Snatcher, right?

Hi Haunted 

I really like your style of argueing. You try to highlight the pros and cons of the 2 main deck types without claiming that your opinion is THE opinion.
I also tried to find out the best deck type for a long time and the funny thing is that i also feel the best while playing fish. I had times while i thought "wow, this top tier deck i play against now is so cool and broken, i have to try it by myself!" . But after some testing i found the weaknesses and in the end Fish was the deck i liked the most.
I don't want to promote anythig. If i felt best with Flash i would say "Top tier deck is the way to go" but it's not like this.

Why is that? Imo a good hate deck which fits well in the meta is stronger than a top tier deck.  If I survive to drop the hate cards. But which deck wins very fast? Flash with a broken hand and land,mox,Oath. Against these starts, maybe with counterbackup, you just lose. But keep in mind how often you REALLY get this kick-start hand when you are thinking now "Hey, if these top tier decks can gop off this easy, i would be dumb to play these hate decks!".

Which deck can manage to stop this brokeness? You have only FoW here, which fish is also playing.
If i manage to survive the first turns, the top tier deck has to find answers to my threats. He just can't win without pulling my answers out of the way.
Oath can't win with a Seal of Cleansing or a Meddling Mage on the table, Flash can't with a Leyline or a Meddling Mage on the table. Having casted one of these spells often means gg for the fish player. He has all the time in the world since he just has to attack and play a threat each turn.

Since the top tier decks normally have a way to win you can anticipate it is more like they are sweating when they play against hate decks than the hate deck fears the top tier deck.
This is just my impression. I tested each deck type from Oath, GAT, Stax, Fish, Flash, URPhid, TPS. In the end the funny thing happened: I felt umcomfortable WHILE playing the top tier decks because i knew the opponent brings in strong hate against my standard way to win. Decks like Staxy or Fish can keep their core and just add a few cards from the SB.
GAT vs prison has to transform the whole deck to have a chance to win. BTW: These transformational SBs, like Flash transforming into Oath, are a very good strategy for the top tier decks.

My main impressions are:

-top tier decks have central and very important cards. This makes them vulnerable since they can count on a broken hand and so normally have to tutor around for some time. These strong cards are their strength and their weakness
-a good hate deck wins more games vs a good top tier deck than it loses. Don't take this point too serious, it's just MY impression from testing each deck type
-the hate cards of the hate deck are kind of narrow. As Anusien wrote, StP, Grunt, Rod etc can be total crap against a top tier deck
-since the last point exists, hate decks have to play cards which can be applied very broadly. All top tier decks have the same strategies: Abusing Moxen, playing central cards (few win conditions), using the grave. Fish uses the strongest card against these, Stax uses cards which just shut off the opponent from his resources. The strategy of Stax is universally applyable against nearly each type of deck but the cards aren't as strong as Fish's against the opponent's strategy.

So: If you have a top tier meta, a tuned Stax ar Fish deck can manage to win lots of games here and i vote for the hate deck here.
If you are in a totally open metagame it is of course better to use a top tier deck since this one "just tried to win". But to be honest: Only top tier decks seem to be played and only top hate decks seem to be played so no one has to fear Elves or direct damage decks.

For me the Welder tricks are more luxury than really necessary. If you want a really fast lockdown i would everytime say "Play MUD", if you want a deck which plays more tricks, abuses Bazaar of Baghdad, play Mono R.

I think there is not a really big difference between both. They have the same problem matchups. Of course a fast Welder scares the MUD player a lot, but a fast Trike played by the MUD player scares Mono R since Welder is useless now and the deck is tuned to abuse Welder. But Welder doesn't help against Aggro, not against Combo....I don't know what his big advantage is in the current meta. Red Blasts can solve the Energy Flux problem, but fast enough? I don't think so. It's too reactive.
I think one great pro for MUD is the ability to fully concentrate on the lockdown and so play 9 Spheres. These help against Oath, slowing down, dropping Tangle Wire, Chalice and Smokestack. A Welder doesn't shine here.

You have to live with the knowledge that Oath and maybe Ichorid matchups are nearly unwinnable´if you are on the draw. So pack Eon Hub in the SB which also hates Energy Flux and Kataki. This one is also played faster in MUD.

Hi everyone,

i would like to discuss this TPS-build. It is pretty much standard, only the sideboard "transforms" it into an Oath-deck. Do you think it's worth all the SB space to inprove the matchups against highly disruptive aggro-decks? I think just adding a few pyroclasms/Massacre isn't strong enough here, and the tinkered Colossus is bounceable....

I tried to regard the following points which are a fact for this kind of deck imo:

-there has to be a really high amount of bombs so that a single Duress doesn't hit you out of the game for the next 4 turns
-only the best protection
-the best acceleration with the full load of artifact acceleration, making the Storm-spells really strong
-you have to be fast and should be able to play a bomb each turn
-you should be not so much Yawg-Will-dependant and grave-dependant
-there are tons of Artifacts (Spheres...) or fast aggro with Goyfs out there preventing your win. There must be done something about this. This is where the transformational SB comes into play (Oath with hardcastable creatures). As an alternative i post a more traditional SB, which is stronger against Control, other TPS and Flash.
-there is faster combo like Ichorid or Flash out there, so find a way against these (Tinker --> Platz, Oath --> Platz, hardcast Platz, Discard)

I think lowering acceleration (you NEED acceleration to be fast enough) as it has been done in the newer "Super" Long builds is not good since you play a lot of bombs which have to pay off very fast, additional Misdirections (low blue count) have no place in this deck.
What i would really like to add is 1 more Intuition but there seems to be no place. Colossus seems to be a must since he saves your life when there is no chance forcing some spells through in a turn (seeing Chalice, Null Rod....) and can let me win through Gaddock Teeg.

I would like to read your opinions. I like this build more than the Gush-Tendrils-decks since this one doesn't rely highly on one card (Fastbond) and from my experience the deck also can win without Y. Will. I had a really funny 1st turn kill where i made 58 Goblin tokens and took 60 off his life (with a huge Mind's Desire, which is incredible in this deck). Merchant Scroll doesn't fit in this kind of deck imo.

1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
4 Dark Ritual

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens

1 Rebuild
1 Chain of Vapor

4 Force of Will
4 Duress

4 Brainstorm
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Time Walk

1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Mind’s Desire
1 Yawgmoth’s Bargain
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Intuition
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Time Twister
1 Tinker
1 Memory Jar
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Necropotence

1 Darksteel Colossus

1 Badlands
2 Flooded Strands
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tolerian Academy
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

Sideboard

4 Oath of Druids
2 Platinum Angel
1 Tidespout Tyrant
3 Trygon Predator
2 Tropical Island
1 Rebuild
1 Echoing Truth
1 Thoughtseize


Card discussion:

-Oath-SB: Helps against Ichorid, all fast aggro (!!)
-Trygon Predator: seems lame, but bringing this one in against Stax can save my day. I know that only bounce often is not enough to fight through the wall of artifacts. In this matchup the symmetrical draw is sided out (Wheel, Twister). Do you think this is better than Rack and Ruin/Rebuild? Trygon can also handle Pyrostatic Pillar.
-Echoing Truth (,Platz) and Thoughtseize help against control and Flash
-no Cabal Ritual: well, they are ok, but i think we shouldn't overdo it with the non-permanent acceleration
-no Recoup: there are better things out there. It is a grave-dependant card only really good with Will and we don't want needed synergies
-Fact or Fiction is questionable. An Intuition would be more controllable, acts like Gifts and is faster

Alternative SB:

1 Rebuild
2 Rack and Ruin
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Thoughtseize
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroclasm
1 Massacre
1 Platinum Angel
1 Echoing Truth
1 Darkblast