I will likely be in attendance.

I am coming out of Vintage retirement for this.

I've been meaning to post this since I moved, but I was wondering if anyone wanted to get together and test or has a standing group that they test with.

Maybe.

Good to hear from one of the Ohio folks, at least. Being done with undergrad has left me with time to play again (woot), as well as with the money to do so. I don't know what I'll be playing yet, but I'm tempted by the newly legal 4x Enlightened Tutor. There's gotta be some angle to work there. Or maybe I'll just play Tezz.

I will be coming. Willing to drive anyone else from the Philly/Wilmington DE/Northern MD area who wants a ride, just give me a PM or something.

I know that I'm hoping that the new Shop decks will keep combo in check. In at 15 proxy event, it's fairly easy to build one, and it's a comparably easy archetype to play passably. So it's more of a "I know the matchup isn't great, but X-1 tends to make top 8." position.

While I can't speak for Steve, I'm testing a similar deck, and with combo expected to be significantly slower (and less consistent), there's less of a need to Duress on turn 1-2 to slow them down. It also forces you to run additional nonbasic lands, which is a huge risk given the strength and prevalence of Blood Moon and Magus in the new meta. In every multicolor control deck I've tested, from bad Keeper to CS to Gifts-inspired Painter's Servant, has used black very little - almost exclusively for Demonic Tutor and Yawgwill, and perhaps Vamp. All Duress does is strengthen the combo matchup, which Extirpate does better postboard.

EDIT: Steve posted while I was writing. There you have it.

Had the lists separated in 2003, I doubt that we would've seen Gifts or Brainstorm restricted. We almost certianly would've gotten Fact or Fiction unrestricted, and a more active discussion of LoA might've occured, especially if Gush had been unrestricted (which was unlikely). Flash would've been discussed, but I'm not sure what would've happened. Burning Wish wouldn't have been restricted(at least not immediately), and then there would've been an even more active discussion of banning Yawgmoth's Will. That discussion may have actually resulted in the card's banning, but I'd only put the chances for it  at <50%. Trinisphere may have survived longer than it did, but ultimately would've gotten the axe. Bazaar would've been more seriously discussed, but ultimately would've stayed where it is. As far as trivial and cosmetic changes, I have no idea, but they aren't important.

Most recently, Scroll and Gush may have been restricted, but probably just Scroll.


This is the key point. The one thing that the Vintage community has consistently asked for (really, the only thing) is a more consistent and transparent process. That's the most realistic result from community outcry, because Wizards knows what Steve keeps pointing out: we are (in general) their longer term customers with more (per capita) disposable income than their Standard, Extended, and FMN communities. They, if nothing else, want to keep us active in the secondary market, because they know that we'll keep buying new product as long as we feel like the community is being taken care of. The last thing the DCI wants for the Eternal formats is a splintering off the community into more of an unsanctioned body than it already is, which is exactly what a move like this would do. As such, they have to take points brought forward in these discussions seriously. So if nothing else, this is an important discussion to have, even if it doesn't result in a split.

This is the big problem with the argument that Zherbus is pointing out, at least in my opinion. That being said, I think I'm willing to stake the format on the average Vintage player's critical reading skills. The lists are unlikely to drift significantly apart aside from the restrictions of this month, and possibly the removal of cards like Dream Halls that won't see play even with 4 Brainstorm and 4 Gush. The people we're most likely to use as a result of the confusion are the semi-casual tournament players who play in cheap, local Vintage events in lieu of FNM or on Saturday afternoons. The extreme casual crowd that will periodically play in tournaments is almost 100% Johnny-land, so our more conservative and transparent B&R policy would keep them on our side, especially since our events 1) Happen and 2) Have stronger prize support. Granted, this argument relies on SCG to support the community list, but since their business interests lie more with the Vintage community than with the DCI, they are likely to support it.


What truly baffles me, however, is how  no one has brought up the fact that the DCI only even looks at Vintage quarterly, when it comes time to update the list. The fact that they make their decisions (largely) based on an extraordinarily limited amount of tournament data (that is, the tournament data that exists), I'd actually feel better with people actively involved in the format making decisions that at least reflect extratournament experience and established Vintage theory (which, while underdeveloped, is more easily understood from within the format than from without), even as that theory is being created. Also, since most of us are adults, I have less hesitance with regard to letting actively competing players, particularly if they are elected from the Adepts and TOs by the Adepts and TOs (and perhaps by the Full Members as well) than I would in a format with a lower general maturity level like 1.x or Standard. Unlike those formats, we have a very stable core of players who would be willing to engage in a labor of love like the maintenance of a B&R list and who could be trusted to be transparent and impartial.

After all that, I feel that the best option for the continued harmonious maintenance of the lists is for the DCI to become more transparent (won't happen) and/or include A-level Vintage theorists and players in the decision making process for the format that that admittedly have little to no contact with (possible). As in the community list scenario, our most respected representatives end up having a role in the defense and expansion of the format, and everyone saves face. If that is not an option, however, I feel that we are better off on our own.

I generally don't drop Mesa until I plan to win, which means that I'll be winning as early as the next turn. I'm still running Words of Waste, so I tend to empty their hand prior to making my tokens on their EOT and swinging for the win with 10 2/2 fliers. Even if they have a full hand, the process only takes 27 mana, which is a pittance after a good Replenish with Sanctum and Mirari's Wake on the table. It costs 18 to do the same thing with Footprints, but you have to draw the cards as well, which means your tokens have to sit through their summoning sickness unless you have 2 Pursuits. So with tokens, it's a tossup. With Footprints you're more vulnerable to bounce, but it costs less mana.

Necra Sanctuary takes 10 turns to kill with 1 copy. Seriously, Test of Endurace is better than that, because it only takes 1 turn after you drop it, you can get that turn for free if you want to drop City of Solitude for Seedtime, and it has mad synergy with your whole deck, provided you run Words of Worship. Even if you don't, you can add 1 Gerrard's Wisdom and win in the middle of your combo turn for 4WWWW. On top of that, it's White. I'm still not advocating it, though.

One option is splashing red for Pyromancy, which opens up a AEther Flash as a sideboard option against Ichorid and WSA. Still, this is probably a horrendous idea. PandeBurst is another awful option, but it does have the benefit of winning now. Opalescence is another option. Really, with Wake, you can just win with Enchantress Beatdown if need be.

I agree with Masta on the issues of Blue and Solitary confinement. Neither does anything for me.


I just realized that I haven't provided anyone with an actual list that I'm testing so here it is, and no, I don't miss the blue at all:

Mana
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
2 Plains
1 Forest
2 Bayou
1 Serra's Sanctum
2 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
7 SoLoMoxen
1 Lotus Petal

Engine
4 Argothian Enchantress
3 Enchantress's Presence
3 Sylvan Library
1/2 Abundance
1 Pursuit of Knowledge

Tutor
4 Sterling Grove
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor

Win
3 Replenish
1 Mirari's Wake
1 Fastbond
1 Sacred Mesa

Silver Bullets
2 Humility
3/2 Duress/Unmask
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Words of Worship
1 Words of Waste
1 Seal of Cleansing
0/1 Overgrown Estate
0/1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
0/1 Runed Halo

This is from memory, so I might be leaving something out. The Runed Halo count is probably going to go up to 2. With all the other 0's remaining 0 and the Duress Count going to 2 and Abundance count going to 1. I disagree with Cooberp on Abundance, and feel that it (for a variety of reasons) is both powerful and necessary. Blue just destabilizes the manabase in a world full of 5 Strips+Crucible and Blood Moons. On the off chance that I add red, I will remove Black. I'm also considering cutting my 2 Wastes for Mana Crypt and another color source, possibly an ESG.

While I haven't played it in Enchantress, I know how fantastic Mystic Remora is against Storm. That being said, how good is it without counters? Also - I have savage tech against Noughts that I'm not posting publicly right now, but will share in PMs. Finally, how do people feel about Abeyance/Chant vs. Duress?

As someone who never stopped testing Enchantress, even when it was terrible, I figure I'll throw my 2 cents in.

Worship - I agree, it needs to go. Though it strengthens the Ichorid matchup. I'll try Wheel of Sun and Moon.

Words of Worship - In theory, lifegain is bad. But think back to 1997-98 Type 2. People ran Gerrard's Wisdom (in an admittedly slower format) because it would give you 8-10 life for only 2WW. This Words can give you 15 life for 3. Granted, you have to cast it first, but more often than not, you're casting it with at least 2 Enchantress effects on the table, so it nets +1 CA anyway. Also, the format is slower than it has been in recent memory, so the fact that

Words of Waste - Against control and combo, this wins the game. It's Mind Twist, but it's an enchantment.

I agree with GI - Necra Sanctuary is godawful. TO be honest, I'm still running Sacred Mesa, though Mobilization is stronger against Stax. I have no idea if a better option exists.

Root Maze is actually very, very good against combo. It slows the game down to your speed, but I'm not sure if it's right for now. It also helps against Ichorid.

In the world of win conditions, I'm open to just about anything.

The only other comment I have is that I'm shocked by the fact that you aren't running Mirar's Wake and Fastbond. They give you an all-but combo finish, where you draw your whole deck, play most of the enchantments, and put your opponent in a position where they can't win, and will usually be forced to concede without you actually dropping the kill. Even if they force you to do it, just untap, pay the upkeep on Mesa, pass, and make 10 2/2 tokens. I'll post my list later tonight.

First off, the article was great, Steve. You captured my reaction almost exactly.

That being said, I've done a bit of testing, and have come to a few conclusions, albeit on a limited amount of data.


1. Impulse is fantastic.

Impulse is extraordinarily potent in a deck that can take advantage of it. Highly redundant decks such as MonoU or UrPhid can use it as an instant speed Merchant Scroll, while 3-4cc can use it to dig for silver bullets

2. Parfait is too slow, but Enchantress (a la Cooberp) has potential.
Not too surprising.

The 7 slots tax/rack takes up leave very little room for the diverse array of threats to the deck, and the fact that Parfait has a very hard time supporting acceleration in the form of off-color Moxen. That being said, a well built Enchantress is strong against Ichorid (easily supporting Leylines, and even Unmasks to ditch them if the builder so chooses), can hold its own against WSA and Painter.dec with maindeck cards like Swords to Plowshares, Humility, and Seal of Cleansing, and sideboard options such as Elephant Grass and Serenity. In addition, the archetype is historically strong against Monoblue and and multicolor control decks because of its easy access to cards like Choke and City of Solitude. That being said, Stax is still an uphill battle.

3. WSA is at the top of the aggro heap.

The combination of Pyrostatic Pillar, 9 Spheres, Blood Moons, Crucible/Wasteland/Strip, and incredible speed when it comes to laying threats means that, especially on the play, WSA might be the best deck in the format until a Long build decks crystallizes. Out of the board, access to Duplicant, Triskelion, Magus of the Moon, Flametongue Kavu, Viashino Heretic, and even more graveyard hate render Stax, Ichorid, and other aggro irrelevant.

Not going.

I'm not sure about anything TRULY new, but Madness might come back, especially because it ran none of the hit cards and can support powerful disruption. A good jumping off point might be Team Reflection's Virtual Insanity.

I expect a major resurgence of older archetypes that have been crowded out by the speed. UrPhid is probably the strongest deck in the format, given that it's now not fighting against combo/control and takes Stax and its variants to the woodshed. Similarly, Parfait is historically strong against aggro decks, as well as it's ability to answer graveyard based decks. It's possible that it will be too slow, though.

Stax will remain strong, but there's still a chance 3-4CC could come back, most likely as a Slaver variant.

I agree with Steve. Brainstorm? Seriously? What's next? Force?

I disagree with all of them, with the possible exception of Flash.

I guess I can dust off my Impulses and play ca. 1997 Keeper.

Yeah, I'd sort of like to know whether it's still worth the 5 hour drive + cost of gas.

They probably won't do anything. The metagame is stable based on everything I've been reading (sorry, haven't played much recently), so any changes that aren't strictly cosmetic (unrestricting Time Spiral/Windfall) or are going to have a minor effect at best (unrestricting Grim Monolith) are unlikely.

If anyone is coming from the MD/DE/NJ/Eastern PA area, let me know. I can drive if need be.

I will be there, despite not having touched cardboard in months.

I can probably make it, but I need a ride. If you provide the car, I'll make sure to stay sober enough to drive back to Cleveland.

A real vintage event in PGH? I'm totally in.

Is anyone from/passing through Cleveland coming to this? And can I bum a ride?

I never heard anything. I was asking you.

Even if no one else from Cleveland is going, I'm going if I can get a ride from the megabus stop.

This just seems to be an updated TurboNevyn with aggro elements. Isn't Tendrils combo stricty superior as combo, GAT strictly superior as aggro-combo-control, and isn't The Mean Deck strictly superior as Combo-Control?

Good article, though I think the GAT/Fish matchup is a bit loaded (who honestly expected Fish to win?).

You heard Nam's officially not coming?

That's a lot like Hulk ca. 2003 with Gushes added. It seems like it would benefit from going completely in that direction

Updating my entry

I'm a Chemistry/Biochemistry major of indeterminate (I'm either graduating at the end of next fall or in the spring if I decide to do grad school here, since they let you start your senior year if you only have non-major courses to finish) status at Case Western Reserve Universty. I've been actively involved in research for awhile now, so my understanding of topics like surface catalysis, enzyme kinetics, and electrochemistry are of a higher level than the rest of my education. I'm conversant in Ligand Field Theory and Molecular biology if anyone wants to talk about those, too.

If you're in Cleveland, I can put you up for a few nights.