There's a pair of zombie walks scheduled in Minneapolis.  I think it's a fad.

Economic Left/Right: -1.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.82

I don't think I'm very anarchist..  Civil Liberties = good, right?

I think it's a mix of Zapdos and Articuno (or maybe the fire one).  If it was jagged it would totally be a Zapdos.  Legendary Bird Pokemon forever!

Numinous is a very green spirited word.  It's not something that is acquired through study (at least not blue's studying).  Look at the definitions.  The word numinous looks blue.  It's meaning is green.

I really liked this comic.  Are there others that have similarly interesting characters and a cohesive group of characters?

Batman didn't ask for that car.  It just happened to be what his company was designing for the miitary.  The military is compensating, not Batman.  The new Batmobile is considerably less phallic than the old one.

Vader didn't plunk Portman, that was Anakin Skywalker.  Vader is the machine.  Anakin is the man(boy).

Vader's machine was not as badass as Batman's (think Batman Beyond).  I mean he could see through walls.  He basically became Superman.

@dandan
Batman had a kickass animated series.  Vader didn't.  Good animated series are like 5 good movies per season.

The biggest problem you have with the deck is Tinker->Colossus.  If you aren't running Colossus removal, you're not coming up with a viable list.  Okay.

Also, let me makes something more clear.  Vial isn't about speed, it's about resource advantage.  You use your mana for better things in the early game.  Turn 1 Vial, turn 2 Chains of Mephistopheles.  Turn 1 Vial, Duress.  Vial let's you do things like activate Withered Wretch or equip Umezawa's Jitte immediately.

Start running Blue.  It is excellent.  Waterfront Bouncer, Time Walk, Ancestral Recall, and that new U/B, U/B card that counters fetches and Tinker.  That'll make Vial a much better card.

I would guess Mana Crypt.

What makes this deck stronger to similar artifact combo decks?  Why is it better than the Ironworks deck?

That's funny, Matt.  My high school wanted to switch to block for budgetary reasons.  I smell a trail of BS!

Could you post a decklist or two?  I play casually with a friend.  We just bought a couple of starter decks and play with the random cards we have.  I'm curious what a real deck looks like.

In this deck, Wasteland is very similar to Time Walk.  You don't really need UU up that much, so that's less a concern.  It gives you a tempo advantage and more chances to set up you Bazaar engine/topdeck good cards.  I've always thought they were excellent.  Death Spark is very questionable.  I go back and forth on Firestorm.  It's a fun deck to mess around with.

The top 16 list from Gencon shows an improvement on this one.  Tinker -> Colossus is excellent.

Rudy, I would think that the Will would not be cast using LED but rather the Thoughtcast would be cast using the Will.  The English language declares his sentence passable and you repugnant.

Let me correct you.  Only in Dreams sounds like a Weezer song.  A bland pop-rock band would never "Wander."  There must be singularity!

Somnomancy makes me think of sheep tokens.

You obviously don't ever play limited Das Boot.  Sojourn your guy will be said!

Just playing the same deck every month forces you to endure a long wait before winning anything.  The metagame has to shift so that the deck you're playing is tops.  Then again, you are just hoping that the best deck for the metagame will be a deck you know very well.  You should find a deck that matches your playstyle and stick with it.  Being good is much more important than playing the right deck if you want to do well consistently.  More important than just practicing a deck is playing against opponents of the highest skill level possible.  Try to find a way to get good testing partners consistently.  If this means you have to play in a tournament every week, so be it.  I got good over a period of playing in a weekly tournament over six months.  That led me to winning the Black Lotus tournament way back in 2002 (or was it 2003?) with R/G.  The metagame was full of blue-based control and I played a deck I knew better than just about anyone.  That's what it takes to win, oftentimes.

What's your playstyle?

http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/index.php?topic=24073.msg369381#msg369381

That is the Ironworks deck.  Running 1 Frogmite does not make the deck Affinity.

I would definitely play Ironworks.  It's like Control Slaver except not at all the same.  If it wasn't for Oath decks siding Energy Flux, Ground Seal, and Back to Basics, it would have won the last tournament (drawing both Ground Seal and Energy Flux in game 3 was HUGE). 

You'll probably see more Oath hate next month.  People are dumb, though, so maybe run Oath.  Classic Oath.  If you can draw your hate in game 2, I see no reason why you won't win.

I don't think I've ever seen Fish win at that metagame, although I haven't been around for about a year.  I would advise not playing it.  To be quite honest, you aren't good enough.  Even if you were, you probably still wouldn't win.

Remember Oshawa Stompy?

I don't see why.  The time it takes to stop looking at your library for a card is plenty for the shuffle thing to reset.  Compulsive shuffling isn't important, is it?  It does feel good to shuffle x times.  My x is 3.

Does the current shuffler make cards like Flame Burst, Kindle, Aether Burst, and their ilk better?

I liked the limit on shuffling.  I always found my opponent holding ctrl s for a few seconds to be annoying.

I liked Dust of Dreams because it goes with the art and I feel it matches the mechanic.

You guys would plan to go to Gencon with a deck that hates two decks very well, and does everything else worse than most every deck.  Huh?

This is what I've gotten from this thread.

"We run really strong cards.  That's all that matters."

"Hate is STRONG."

"Worlds will be all Workshops and other decks."

R/G is a poor choice for one reason alone.  You can't count on playing against Workshops at ANY point in the tournament and you can't count on your hate to always show up when you need it.  I'm not saying it can't do well.  I'm sure if someone with enough experience (there are few of us) could x-2 at Worlds without too much trouble, but I do NOT think anyone will top 8.  There isn't enough power in the deck.  There are too many situations where you are impotent to stop your opponent.

I challenge a R/G player to actually outline the weaknesses of the deck.  If you can't see your weaknesses, you can't actually know your strength.

And by the way, no one should EVER run Seedtime.

I really like how the pending games are centrally located on the bottom now.  That's really nice.  The different word buttons work out very well.  Everything is clearer.

The one problem I have is if I click twice on a game approval, the game disconnects.  I'll just have to be careful.

Don't start a circle jerk in here.

R/G isn't a good choice for a big tournament for one reason.  Consistency.  I've played the deck enough to know that you need to have a good amount of luck (in your mana base and draws) to make the top 8 of a 5 round tournament.  Don't get me into longer tournies.

Your mana base is inconsistent and you are completely vulnerable to that.  Your lack of draw makes you rely solely on your opening 7 and a few cards off the top.  You have the tools, but can you find them all in time.  Over 7-8 rounds, the answer will be no twice, in all probability.  R/G is very good in small metagames where you actually metagame against most of the decks.  In 100+ person tournies, you are far too vulnerable to your pairings.

Know thy place.

Your method only provides for 2 threats.  Mine provides for at least 3 (and doesn't require Lightning Greaves or making room for another card).  You way also requires tons of mana, in which case you're probably infinite with the combo.  Then, all you do is weld your dudes, rather than moxen.  Also, wouldn't your kill work better with Conjurer's Bauble?  I mean, you get Conjurer's Bauble back as much as you want.  Nothing better, right?  If Walk gets countered, then you get to but on bottom again.  You can keep on doing that indefinitely.  Sounds perfect!

I know you can't answer here, but I think this case is as closed as it ever will be.

Rather than trying to get random wins, I'm trying to get consistent wins.  I played against Rico playing Slaver before Chicago.  Game 1, at the very least, was purely what I was able to do with my deck.  If I had a good hand (where I could combo through disruption), I won.  If my hand was slow or didn't have much draw I lost.  Slaver was never an issue.  He was better off using a creature to win.

Would you prefer a 58 card deck that has slightly better mana and more threats or a 60 card deck that might get random wins from 2 1-ofs?  I will always opt for the 58 card deck.

Darksteel Colossus will get welded into whatever was tinkered away.  If you don't have a Welder (because of counters), there is a good chance you resolved some draw spells.  So, you're probably winning.  Colossus is a turn too slow.  They are much better off getting a Trike to slow down the draw, or a Pithing Needle.

Marton is exactly right.  Although you probably only have 2 extra Myr Retrievers and 3 Goblin Welders.  That's 6 times they'll have to counter Time Walk.  That basically means that Time Walk is a useless card to counter.  They'll have to try to stop your combo.  But the combo is so redundant, that is EXTREMELY difficult to do.  It requires too many resources to be done effectively.

Staff does not say, I win.  Your other cards say, I win.  Staff say, I win differently (and with other cards that you don't need to boot)!  If you're trying for inconsistency, wtf?  If you're trying for something else, you're doing it wrong.

If you start with Koen's original list, and start changing cards to try to make it run faster and more consistently, yes I would have a one card kill.  Chromatic Sphere has always been in the deck because it fixes your mana.  Time Walk has always been in the deck because it is good.  Koen runs Arcbound Ravager in addition to the core cards.  That's a one card kill.  I run Conjurer's Bauble in addition to the core cards.  That's a one card kill.  You could run Staff of Domination in addition to the core cards, but you'd still need to change/add another card to get the instant kill.  If you were going to play something anyway (like maybe you want a Goblin Sharpshooter?), then running Staff would be considered a one card kill.

This thread is using my current list as a jumping off point.  If you wish to change something fundamental in the deck, fire me a pm.  Show me your list, and I'll tell you if I think it's okay that you post it in my thread.  If I said no, you could feel free to start another thread.  I just want to make sure the thread stays on topic.  Right now the topic is brainstorming 1 card kills (although this may have run its course) and additional sideboarding ideas.  This is mostly a showcase thread.  There aren't enough players playing the deck to get a strong discussion of card choices going.

Staff is not a must counter any more than your combo is a must counter.  Using Staff puts your eggs in a much smaller basket.  Rather than advancing your game state (by playing creatures and mana) you'd have to hold back to play staff at first.

Please, please, please stop posting your opinions on what is better until you have done significant testing.  It is okay to mention the cards.  This thread was meant to introduce the deck to the community and have an open place for suggestions of cards.  Arguing about this is not going anywhere.  If you like running Staff, go ahead.  It's time to drop it in this thread.  I would rather have the thread locked and the worthless posts removed than continue such trivial arguments.

If you want a staff deck, this is not the thread.  If you don't like having a 5 card combo, leave the thread alone.  Start up a deck that has a similar engine but wants to staff for the kill.  You should probably start that deck by adding 4 Junk Divers.  They'd actually be useful in a staff deck.  Good luck.

By the way.  You run a 5 card combo.  This isn't a 5 card combo deck.  It's not your primary goal, to assemble those 5 cards (unless it's convenient).  Your goal is to draw cards and, if your opponent isn't going to win the game in the next couple of turns, apply some pressure.  You have to correctly assign your roll.  I have been playing this deck for about a year.  I've seen it's strengths and shortcomings, I'm trying to share them with you.  Your "combo" is hard to disrupt in the current metagame.  You have the tools to win in every matchup.  Your bad matchups are less present in the current metagame.

Conjurer's Bauble looks bad.  I agree.  You have to actually play it to see its power.  It is your insurance card.  It will win you games your opponent would have had locked down without it.  If you don't think you want an (or this) insurance card, cut it.  Run something else.  Draw is probably more beneficial than additional creatures.

Regarding the 4th Genesis Chamber, I decided that I was drawing Genesis Chambers too often.  It isn't necessary that you get a Genesis Chamber out turn 1-2 to win.  I prefer more access to Skullclamp in its place.  You can certainly run Genesis Chamber over a Steelshaper's Gift, I just wouldn't drop Chromatic Sphere or Conjurer's Bauble for it.  I don't see why you want Trike so badly.  It doesn't do much unless you go infinite.  It'd be a good fatty against a Null Rod.  That's about all the use I ever got out of it when I used to use it as the kill.

It's not mana issues, but rather consistency.  Darksteel Colossus is not an issue for this deck.  You have 5 excellent answers to it already.  Your opponent using two attack steps is not a good plan for them, unless they have Time Walk and a lot of counters.  Goblin Welder will deal with most Darksteel Colossus issues.  Welders do almost nothing to you.  Also, you could be tapping Welders with your staff.  What do you need Trike for?  If you're getting very different results from me, I don't know what to tell you.  My opponent affects whether or not I win in about 20 percent of games, maximum.  So, if your opponent is affecting 80 percent of your games, you either are playing the deck differently or you built it wrong.  I don't know what to tell you.

Thank you Rico.

Here's an arbitrary rule for this thread.  You get one slot for a kill.  If you can't do it in 1 slot, you're not allowed to mention a different kill method.

Staff of Domination is not an adequate kill, it does not finish off your opponent on its own.  It is merely a bad Skullclamp.  If you wanted to run another Skullclamp and didn't like Steelshaper's Gift, maybe you could run Staff.  That said, Steelshaper's Gift is much, MUCH better.  Maybe you can think up a monoblue deck that runs Staff and Crucible and Wastelands.  That isn't this deck.

Viridian Longbow is an adequate kill (but not a good one).  You do not run this kill with Staff first because that's 2 slots and forbidden by the rules of this thread and second because it isn't necessary.  It is mentionable, but utterly not as good as other kills.

Arcbound Ravager is a good kill because it kills that turn and is 1 slot.  I don't believe it's an optimal kill, because it only kills once.  This is a very good kill if you cut Time Walk.  Don't cut Time Walk.

Conjurer's Bauble is a good kill.  It kills immediately and definitely.  It also allows you to recur other things in addition to just Twister (using Myr recursion and Welders).  It cantrips for 1.  It is almost like a non-slot.

Magma Mine is an acceptable in the context of this thread, but like many other kills is just not good enough.  As an early draw it's worthless.  It's only good once you've combo'd out.  It is about the same as Disciple of the Vault.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Disciple.  Now that I've done it, there is no need to ever speak of it again.

So, in summation.  When thinking of new win conditions, ask yourself first this.  Does it require more slots than the single Conjurer's Bauble?  Next, does it do more than Conjurer's Bauble?  In each stage of the game does it do more than Bauble?  Will it help you if you're in mana trouble early and need a cantrip?  Once you're infinite will it help beat the control deck with several counterspells and a Pyroclasm in hand waiting to wreck your board?  Conjurer's Bauble is an elegant answer to several problems this deck has.  Elegant answers are most often the best ones.

Time Walk works a little better than Orim's Chant, IMO.

Triskelion is a metagame call.  IE, if you want to play fat, you can.  I don't recommend it.  I prefer simply winning.

Jackpot: Please keep your replies in this thread to things that are neither silly, fun, nor bad.

I never addressed the problem of not running disruption.  There is the single Trinisphere, but I'd agree with you if you said that that was too little disruption.  The matchups where you want disruption are solely against decks that are faster than you.  How many decks are faster than this deck?  TPS, Long, and Dragon.  How often do you see those decks at tournaments currently?  There might be a metagame where running Sphere of Resistance, Tangle Wire, or Wasteland (and Crucible) would be a good idea.  The current metagame (at least not states-side) is not that.  Against "Control" decks, your primary goal is to win the game now.  You don't have just one method of doing that, unlike other combo decks.  You have several paths you can take to victory.  They aren't so distinct, but the way your opponent plays against them is.  Disruption is not an issue when your deck is faster (through several counters) than your opponent's deck.

My current sideboard.

1 Echoing Truth
This is a stall card against Oath (or disruption if it's salvagers).  Also is useful against Goblins.  Increased redundancy is often useful.  Also good against Dragon.
1 Genesis Chamber
When what your opponent is doing is pretty irrelevant and you want to combo sooner.  Side this in for Talisman, Steelshaper's Gift, Trinisphere, or Echoing Truth.
2 Rack and Ruin
Good against Artifacts (like Chalice, Sundering Titan, Juggernaut, Su-Chi, Sphere of Resistance, Smokestack, Tangle Wire, etc.).  Also gives you tempo advantage in a lot of matchups.
2 Tormod's Crypt
Your secondary answer to Dragon.  Also helps against Gifts.
3 Seal of Cleansing
Your tertiary answer to Dragon.  Is excellent against Energy Flux.  Helps against TNT.  Good against Oath.  Comes in a lot.
2 Meltdown
Your best answer to Chalice.  Variable casting cost is key.  This is untested so far, but looks to be excellent.
1 Yawgmoth's Will
I've explained this before.  Most matchups you don't want it.  Some you really want it.
3 Pithing Needle
This is my newest answer to Triskelion, opposing Goblin Welders, Jitte, and a variety of other threats that might come up.  I don't know if they're going to stay, but I'm running it for now.

Yawg's Will makes it impossible to go infinite and removes your win condition.  It's only good if you're playing against a slower deck where direct card advantage is absolutely good rather than could be good (eg. Stax or Fish or Landstill).  In every matchup where you need to combo right away (Gifts, Slaver, Tog, Goblins, TPS, Long, any other deck with a fast kill), Will is worse than every card in the deck most of the time.  There are certainly situations where it could be useful.  But putting cards that are likely to be dead draws in most of your matchups doesn't sound smart.  You have to consider what Will will actually do.  It basically does what Timetwister does but only once.

It seems like I kill on turn 4.  I could most certainly kill on turn 6 every game if my opponent wasn't forcing my hand.  That wouldn't make it a turn 6 deck, it would just be able to kill on turn 6 when turn 6 is when it's necessary.  When my opponent feels it necessary to strip my lands, I can take my time to set up my kill.  I'll go get Memory Jar and sit on it for a turn.  I'll get some tokens out to block.  How aggressively I play the deck is proportional to how aggressively my opponent's deck plays.

If you're casting Timetwister and your opponent is in a position to win off it, there are roughly 3 situations.
1: You can easily win through 2-3 counters and you're just Timetwistering to get you Time Walk and Myr Retrievers back.
2: Your opponent is about to win the game (set up a huge Will, has too much on the board for you to deal with)
3: You've exhausted your hand and you just need to draw some cards
Comparison of Will and Timetwister
1. Will gets back cards you already played but does not allow you to win that turn (or the next, because you won't be going infinite this turn).  Timetwister gives you some gas and recurs your win condition.
2. Will is much likelier to be weak and can't create any parity of resources.  It just brings back threats you don't necessarily need to bring back.  It's hard to describe how it functions in these situations, because there is a great deal of variety in your board position.  If your opponent has been molesting you with Gorilla Shaman, it could very well be good.  If your opponent has ignored you, it is likely very weak.  This one is difficult to tell which is better.  I would argue Timetwister in most cases.
3. Because you won't often a lot of colored mana, recasting a lot of spells won't often be the best plan.  Usually, you want to use Skullclamp to draw most of your cards, not cast Ancestral, Wheel, Demonic, etc.  Those other cards are there to give you a little oomph in the early game or to find combo pieces.  They aren't ends to themselves.

You have to understand that this deck is different than other combo decks.  You are more concerned with assembling cogs than drawing a lot of cards.  Will removes your cogs from the game.  Not the best strategy.

JDizzle, it sounds like you have a good understanding of how the deck works.  I'm glad there's somebody
Glimmervoid isn't THAT bad.  It is certainly worse than City of Brass and Forbidden Orchard right now, but back in early testing (a year ago), it proved itself better than City (Orchard wasn't released), at least for me.  Right now, yes, it is wretched.

Engineered Explosives sounds like a great idea if I can get a Mana Vault or Sol Ring (or Ironworks I suppose) out, but I'm thinking Meltdown is my best Chalice protection for now.  If it's an early Chalice, all my accel will be in hand.  If it's a midgame Chalice, I can play around it until I'm ready to win (which is when I'd cast the Meltdown).  Meddling Mage hasn't been an issue yet.  Decks that play it are pretty susceptible to Welder tricks (and Echoing Truth takes care of their Mages, or I get the combo--they have to decide which they want to guard against).

Illusionary Mask sounds like an excellent way to resolve Goblin Welder when I absolutely need to.  I don't think I absolutely need to very often, to be quite honest.  Maybe if the metagame shifts and there is a lot more hate directly targeting Goblin Welder.  The rest of the creatures are better cast with Mishra's Workshop.

You don't need Academy to win the game, it just makes things smoother.  You'd have to cut a real mana source to run Crop Rotation.  This deck doesn't like non-real mana sources.  For example, Lotus Petal is awful.

I think that Grim Monolith would be good if we were running 4 KCI, so it could be cast turn 1 off Workshop, but, we aren't.  It provides 1 mana and would often cost you colored mana.  Having to use your red source to get some colorless mana isn't good.

Vartemis, you're talking about having a 3 card combo after you manage to get 12 mana.  Why not just run a 3 card combo that doesn't need a 12 mana jump start?  And it wouldn't lose to a Deed, or an Engineered Explosives, or a number of other cards.

Thanks for the feedback on that matchup, Rico.

Okay, I'll post my current sideboard later and try to make it clear why I run each card.

Magi:Couldn't the winner get byes for next year?

Awesome post Dozer.

Ashnod's Altar will net you about 8 mana (16 if you have a lot of myr).  KCI will net you about 20 mana.  Sac'ing moxen is really good.  I hope that's clear.  Ironworks rarely sacrifices myr tokens.  They're used for drawing cards.  It sacrifices artifacts (like extra Skullclamps and Talismans and Mana Vault) to get mana so you can activate Skullclamp a lot.

Junk Diver costs 3.  The only reason Metalworker gets run is because he taps for a lot of mana.  Myr Retriever is really good (but often weak).  At best Junk Diver gets back a lotus.  But at that point you may as well run an Ornithopter or Frogmite to get you some mana.  I actually hadn't considered it.  The oftenness that you have a Lotus is much lower than you'd hope.  If you're running Koen's version (with Ravager), 1-2 Junk Diver could find a place (Flying makes sure Ravager gets through).

Woohoo
http://www.myspace.com/stevenpetersen

I'm not sure if everyone read this, but it is amazing.  I just wanted to jump on the bandwagon.  Luftwaffle4L.