for oath i would sb engineeded plague. its just as good as chalice @2

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This might seem a little strange, but since your running ancient tombs, and a lot of white sources, you should consider Return to Dust in board as a 1 of. I’ve always wanted to find an excuse to run it over rack and ruin for the rfg, and it seems like it could fit.

I’d say there is a little more to oath than playing/ digging up the enchantment and countering stuff. For starters there are a lot of different oath builds. And people come up with some crazy ways to dig up an oath. There are a number of funny things you can do with loam and intuition, misdirection. I’d say ever playable deck is simple minded in its goal. Get to tinker, build up storm count and find tendrils, disrupt and beat. When it comes to execution of these plans, which is where things get involved and complex.
When I built my oath, aside from power it ended up costing less then the fish builds I had. You need only around 5 duals, three of which don’t see much pay, and some cheapo orchards. Plus with out power you have space for more disruption and utility, increasing skill level. You seem to be more of a tyrant oath guy. Oath is definitely I reasonable choice
 I wouldn’t attempt an un-powered CS. the welder won’t be much good to you and the thirsts aren’t either.

I’d recommend Urbana fish. Running the mox monkey always gets me happy. Having something that’s $0.25 destroy something 1000 times its value is always a good time.

Sui black is also making a comeback. I’d board plague for the fish. The wastes can usually take card of the work shop advantage, and you can run 4x dark ritual, which to you means “pay  and get black lotus”.

you've misunderstood the situation... asuming you've draw the perfect bazaar chalice leyline led grave troll type hand... it means nothing if your looking at a leyline on the other end...that is why you board the land/ leylinefixer

Instead of going echoing truth crazy, it’s a good idea to have variety. I’d try 1 echoing truth, and one wipe away (so chalice @2 doesn’t completely kill you) and a trickbind, it stops storm as well as a number of things.

I’d also strongly consider mana leak.

While I’m at it, when you’ve got a list together make sure chalice @ 1 or 2 doesn’t completely annihilate you. If you’re looking for something to cut, I’ve always been very happy with only 3 meddling mage in my ubw fish list

If you’re running that many 1 cost creatures I would strongly consider ninja of the deep hours, although I disagree with sage. I’d strongly consider at least a 3 strip effect. While tweaking this deck, make sure you have enough blue to support FoW

This works just fine in ichorid, if some one is disrupting your primary win condition/engine you won't be using it (i.e. it's been disrupted). You'll be attempting to bazaar into the missing peice of your antihate, be it mana or bounce/enchantment hate. Also, I have been running the tropicle island+fetches for a while. Weeding out land come in handy when you've got you engine back on line and are making up for the boarded out dredgers.
True it seems like a long shot to get off in time, but this is part of playing 1 trick pony like ichorid

i believe ley line is much better than unmask,it doesn't require loosing a possable dredger. hits combo's pretty hard, as well as wleder. i'm also assuming that after fs is legal, ichorid will be a large part of the meta for a while. i've found that ichoird can turn three cabal therapy a good 3 times often enough, that is enough to nueter a hand with out the aid of unmask.
i've ofund chalice to be amazing, tempo is needed.

still I think a duplicant and another piece of artifact aggro, juggernaut, isn’t a terrible idea, something you can use workshop to cast though the spheres, if they manage to get chalice @1 out, your left with factory, and most people run 5 strip

yeah, sorry for some reaosn i thought that the null rods were sb. retract previous coment

cephalid sage is redundant to bazaar more or less, it takes up deck space, it’s a classic “win more” situation, I have yet to come across a turn two dredge return without fatal aggro the board. Granted I run a 7/10 which adds additional meat and slows down the opponent, as well as a huge piece of aggro on its own. But I find sometimes even t he extra max 18 card dredge has problems finding a second dredge, and then you’ve wasted the chance for at least a grave troll for a 2/2. I suppose you could main deck a 3rd dredge return to fix that problem, which I used to do, but I’ve found that with such limited space, it isn’t the best use of deck space

-2 sphere of resistance
+2 aggro
 trike and titan ideally

Also, I think a mind slaver would fit well into this list
-1 mana vault +mind slaver

Some one commented on the 3x stax, and the 4x crucible
Crucible serves as excellent fodder for force, your goal is to double threat with this deck, plus crucible helps stax go broken, sac land play land type stuff. Second crucible is great weld material as well as needed for gemstone and workshop protection (and in this list factory). So I’d say it’s not more important, than stack, but more useful

as for cutting mana vault, a lot of people i've talked to, find sol ring a better choice. the numbers tend to work out better supposedly

   Stax is an interesting match up for ichorid. I’d say one of the strengths of ichorid is that counter doesn’t matter. That is typically about eight dead cards that are not found in stax. I’ve play tested considerably against a 4 color uba build running 1 Tcrypt, 4 waste effects, 1 duplicant and 2 triskillion (opposed to the more common one) main deck. This deck runs two additional boarded Tcrypts. You’d be amazed at some of the ridiculously damaging plays to ichoird this thing makes.

turn one: wastes bazaar, mox ,play goblin welder
turn 2: play bazaar activate, discard triskilion/duplicant

turn one: mox, city, time walk
turn 2: Tcrypt, mana crypt/lotus/land+sol ring/shop, uba mask

turn one: trinisphere+ slow play crypt.

   My success rate against this particular build is about 45% post board. It has little problem slowing me down to find the answers, especially with the bazaar uba combo. My current list is a ghoul combo running main deck leyline, bridges from below, narcomoeba, street wraith, chalice, 14 dredgers, LED, pretty standard, 3 nether shadows however. Does the amount of game lose seem reasonable?
   The course of action most decks take against ichoird is one of the following: board leyline, or slow down ichorid and search for an answer. Chain of vapor is a great solution to leyline, I’m not concerned with it. But I believe that baubles might be needed to provide the protection against waste (especially with the increase in reoccurring waste I am seeing).
    Thoughts, suggestions, comments?
   

Pithing Needles can always be used to neutralize things like welder and salvager.
I also used to run a friggorid type build running ground seal when extripate was new.  The extra dredge was nice.
Bridge From Below has proven amazing against the hate, but I've encounted problems with welder still.  "Multiple cryptings and the trisk/duplicant exchange (which i believe takes care of bridge as well)" is a sentence fragment because it does not contain a verb.

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Personally, I feel chalice for 0 is pretty good against combo. Both leyline and chalice eliminate one way to build up storm count. There are more ways to bounce the chalice. However, chalice hits the mana base harder. If you’re on the play I’d stick with chalice, it beats crypt in addition to hitting the mana base, if I’m on the draw, i might think more about beating the hate then hating out combo.
What are people boarding now a days anyways?

Anyone ever think about cutting dread return/ghoul/breath out of ichorid and main decking pithing needle, mana sources and chain of vapor?
It’d be harder to slow down and hate out

bridge from below.
i don't think its a very stong card in ichorid, you have to dreadge it over initialy, and it won't do anyhting unitill there is an ichoird in play, attacking with ichorid could remove bridge befor you can use it, and it doesn't help against the hate...i  could see htis being of use in osme sort of friggorid build though

   Someone mentioned not being sure about sutured. I’ve already been play testing a build w/ necroameaba(which triggers immediately) and the additional stats/extra draw of street wraith, getting lethal ghoul happens consistently turn 2, I think it can race the crypt easily with unmask, it nothing else I have a play sundering titan as well, the extra target in occasionally needed.
   Any advice on boarding for second game, particularly v.s. leyline
right now the list is something like the following:

4 bazaar
4 grave troll
4 stinkweed imp
4 thug
4 cabal therapy
4 unmask
4 nether shadow
4 ichorid
4 necroameaba
4 serum powder
4 street wraith
chalice of the void
3 shambling shell
3 dread return
2 sutured ghoul
2 dragon breath
1 sundering titan
1 phantasmagorian

the thing that probably sticks out immediately is the 3 dread returns, play testing proves it’s needed for a consistent turn 2 bomb

right now my board plan for leyline is
-4 thugs
-1 dread return
-4 unmask
-1 phantasmagorian
-1 chalice (although I really am not liking this)

+7mana sources
+4 chain of vapor

   All it takes is one main deck tormod’s crypt, a lot of decks run them, especial in the wake of ichorid and the current combo. I highly doubt that anyone in there right mind would board in 4 tormod’s crypt against oath, all you’ve done is given them a reason not to take the main deck crypt out. If you’re concerned about tempo in a standard oath build, I’d suggest muddle in the mixture, early game oath protection, late game transmute for oath (or life form the loam to keep your advantage), as well as echoing truth for those warrens match ups. It’s probably in oath’s best interest these days to pay special attention to combo. As far as alternate win condition I just feel it’s better to do something that synergizes with the deck like factory beats.
   Also, I never said to not play tolarian academy, nor did I say it was sub optimal in tyrant oath. I just said most standard oaths don’t play it, nor do they often play tyrant for that matter (obvious correlation).

i've only skimmed this quickly, but this hting would be killer in ichorid if they didn't keep printing things too kill the deck i'd pick it back up

I’m sure this card will be boarded in a lot of fish builds, only thing better in fish than when a card does something that nearly kills a game zone, is when its conveniently attached to a beater.

bpk,
   Whether or not you burn off as many brainstorms as you can before laying chalice at one is beside the point, we all do that if we have the luxury. From your posts you seem to intend on playing yawg’s will late game after you have “run out of gas”. Your brainstorms are in the yard, playing them prior doesn’t change the fact that they are still very difficult to resolve late game, especially if your opponent knows your playing oath. Also, not drawing vast amounts is exactly what I’m advocating, especially late game where the odds of drawing your angel is massively increased. its is true, tyrants will not clog up you and nearly as much, but angels versus Tidespout is a whole other debate, even with the help of a black lotus sometimes hard casting an angel, especial Razia, is an issue, especially if your spending mana to find the lotus, and the 3 spent on yawg’s will in the first place. Also, I Tolarian Academy is a rarity in most oath builds; I haven’t seen it played in a build in a long time. Even if it was, it will not help with producing rrww.
   My point isn’t that you don’t make it work in you build, from what I’ve read on this thread it seem your build is unique/functional. But I feel it is sub optimal in standard oath builds. I’ve play tested yawg’s will and I am rarely in the position where I could use it effectively. I also found myself longing for Gaea’s Blessing. For the most part I feel cutting blessing makes you too dependant on brainstorm, and an excellent extirpate target. Tormod’s Crypt also makes sure the risk your taking playing yawg’s will doesn’t pay off to begin with; Tormod’s Crypt is a very common card in a lot of people’s meta. I find Yawg’s will doesn’t synergize with the vast majority of standard oath builds, which is why it is not included. I am, however, genuinely curious about your build/meta, particularly how you avoid the dependence on brainstorm.

-mox apricot

hey bpk,

I’m not saying brainstorming is a bad idea in oath at all. It’s the best possible draw oath can ask for. I’m just saying it’s unlikely to happen. I chalice for 1 every chance I get, and if your opponent is watching you, and any good, there not going to let a late game brainstorm resolve. I am, however, saying that casting a couple of ancestral recalls and or thirsts with will is not a very good move at all, especially with the brainstorm unlikely to resolve.
   I am not talking about using will to put an angel back in your library. I’m saying you seem to intend to cast will make some heavy draws and play a land to get back into business. I think that this is not the ideal move in oath, because you’re more likely to put your win condition in a place you can no longer put it into play from. That’s why lots of people run things like impulse, they want to avoid excessive draw.
   Worst case scenario is not having will being a dead card, its using your late game resources and drawing your angels. Late game your odds of drawing them are greatly increased. I do see the validity of replaying a tutor that didn’t resolve, or fishing out a time walk but that’s 3 cards, to one of which is not immediately useful. The rolling over a time walk during you oath isn’t very likely either.
   I tend to agree with the statement that oath is a control deck with a big creature finish. However, drawing can be dangerous, due to its nature. That puts the deck sort of at odds with its self. The oath’s I’ve seen have mostly decided to run 10 control spells to deal with this. That is 1/6 of a deck that is not very useful in a yawg’s will scenario. Other than that there are the brainstorms, which tend to not resolve if you didn’t remove them to force already, and the draw spells, I tend to favor thirst, which can ruin your game plan. it seems like the best use of yawg’s will is to replay a wipe away, echoing truth, engineered explosives or something of that nature. Most standard oath builds I’ve seen don’t run very many non-control defensive cards. So yawg’s will is sub optimal opposed to main decking an additional flexible card like engineered explosives.
if you plan on running yawg’s will in oath, I’d highly suggest playing intuition as I’ve stated in a previous post, it mast will a more flexible card, I’d also recommend replacing blessing with Krosan Reclamation. Not for the purpose of “winning more” but as a way of not decking out in the event of a very deep oath, an out if your draw your angels (or they get destroyed), returning control, or returning a non control card if will as already been played.

@ brainpk
I’m going to have to agree with there not being much worth playing in oath’s graveyard. It seems like all you’d want t do is replay your brainstorms/other draws spells.  This brings me back to oath’s draw engine being smaller than most other decks. Drawing a card can kill your game plan. True you can potentially brain storm an angel back in, but I’m fairly certain 90% of the oath players out there plan on casting chalice for 1. Plus once your opponent knows your playing oath, they start to not let the lat game brainstorms resolve. It’s risky to count on something like that a late game brainstorm to undo the second recall you previously cast. I’d say if you have the space, and aren’t running null rods, run scroll rack, choose which resources you’re keeping around, and have an out for your angels.
I am going to say that you are definitely running a very different oath list than I am. No intuition, scroll, or repeal.

@madman mike
game 1 I do not play aggressively. Like people were mentioning before, oath’s ambiguity is an amazing advantage, I’ve started running Thirst for Knowledge in place of Impulse for that reason. Hell, I’ve actually cast chalice for 2 in tournament play to throw my opponent on the bomber man trail
game 2 I tend to be a little more ballsy. As long as the odds are above 50% I’ll go for it until I get a little burned. Figured the cat’s out of the bag.

i think your build as WAY too much draw. oath's draw engine is weak because drawing puts your win condition in the worst place ever. Berserk is over kill, you can get the same effect running akroma/razia and 1 extract will no longer neuter your deck. Also, it'd think long and hard about the city of brass, I'm on the fence about it

iOath  of Druids is definitely a “Will” deck, Force of Will. It runs four. I can't  imagine any other “Will”  that would belong in this deck due to the Gaea's Blessing that is standard in most builds. At least every third oath activation is going to empty out your graveyard, assuming your playing a build running one Gaea's Blessing, which most do (although I've had people recommend running two). Especially in recent builds where Life from the Loam is getting included more and more because it has the fail safe of Gaea's blessing to keep from decking out with in addition to fixing land problems and card advantage grouped in with its alternate win condition. If you are considering running Yawgmoth's Will i would suggest pulling Gaea's blessing in favor of Krosan Reclamation. But keep in mind that you will no longer h ave a way of putting the 8-10 control back in your library. My main problem is that Yawgmoth's Will has terrible synergy with Gaea's Blessing, and would rarely pull Gaea's Blessing. There are just to many situations were I would much rather have Blessing. Keep in mind that oath has a weaker draw engine, and thats not just a special issue. Its a practicality issue, every draw you make your one draw closer to putting your win condition into the last place you want it to be. So having a bunch of thirst sitting in your yard i isn't a great thing.
I think there is some potential in the yawg's will idea. But I'd make these changes to start with
-Gaea's blessing
-3 impulse/thirst for knowledge
+ Krosan Reclamation
+3 Intuition

   If you’re looking for something to deal with combo heave environments, I’d rethink the 2 stifles and got with the trickbindsx3. Against combo, the timetwister will most likely do more harm than good, also it works against extirpate. Come to think of it, so does the crypt. Phyrexian furnace seems a little bit sub optimal to something like withered wretch (it’d keep extirpate useful.).
   If you’re running 2 chalice, that’s very light considering your probably using them as mox hate. I think even with the trinket mage, it might be to late considering the few mana sources. . Null rod would work better late game. It also takes care of the triskelion pinging, mindslaver, and salvager combo in addition to the moxen.
   Not sure what your adv. converted mana cost is but I see a lot of 3's and 5's. Confidant might get you into trouble; I think cutting the hymn and misdirection for cabal therapy might help you out with that on both ends.
    The mana thing is going to be messy. I think I’d cut a couple mages (part of me just thinks there not enough for them to retrieve) for another confidant (I know I said it might get you into trouble) and a lotus petal. Try to fit another basic in somewhere, maybe cut a stifle, or where that timetwister once was.
   It is a lot like an SS, which isn’t bad like someone else said. I’d check them out for ideas. It seems like your build will work just fine as is a lot of the time. Looks fun to play and if you get the cut purse down its pretty much over. Little things for increased consistency are never a bad idea.

I personally wouldn't bother with a basic land, but that's probably because of my Meta. Also, do not bother with Hellkite in angel oath, I’ve been messing around whit it for a long time now, and the angels hit for 6+12=18 in two swings Hellkite’s are 5+10=15. if your intend on using hell kits use two of them, and some type of acceleration with them . Dragon’s Breath gives you 10+15=25. That gives you five extra points of damage to swing around at threats, welders and things. And if you can get ride of your Hellkite 5 a turn to deal directly to player in the face of ensnaring bridge.  The biggest problem I have found with Hellkite is space efficiency. To make it comparable to angel oath you need 4 cards allotted to a win condition (2 Hellkite’s and something like 2 Dragons Breathe) opposed to two. I’m convinced there is away to make Hellkite work, but I think the only thing its going to have in common with traditional oaths is 10 or 8 control. I’ve been playing with hellkite builds for a few months now in the Milwaukee area and people are just telling me it’s a terrible idea. Ironically I ran Hellkites with momentary blink in a build as a joke, and it’s been the most successful to date, but I’m just about giving up on the Hellkites. Usually the vigilance is enough to deal with other aggro decks, so I wouldn’t consider the Hellkite unless you can deal the full 20 in 2 swings (there’s got to be an efficient way to do it).
I’d never sb anything like echoing decay. You need have to leave them with a creature. I run smother in my board for fish (hits welder, tog, confidant, grunt, mage, next to anything worth running in a fish short of ninja of the deep hours). I’d recommend running engineered explosives somewhere in the deck or board. There are so many little tricks with that card, it’s insane. So where some one suggested crucible main. I tend to favor Life from the loam. Dredges over Gaea’s blessing and gets rid of unwanted brainstorm top decks. Plus it costs 1 less. I’d take out timetwister, it’ll do more harm then good. I really don’t know how I feel about 2 Gaea’s blessing either. Some one previously mentioned Oxidize, best sb ever. I don’t like damnation very much just seems like engineered explosives and smother will take care of those problems for cheaper.
Also some one mentioned above something to the effect that oath can not compete with storm. Run four main deck chalices. Chalice for 0 doesn’t affect oath very much nor does chalice for 1. I like to run 10 control in oath; your chalice is doing no where. Right now I have 2 null rod main as well. The odd of drawing one of the six right off is good.

Back in this dragon thing. I’m kind of shocked why people are actually considering dragon with an open mind finally. If anyone finds a decent way to deal the full 20 please open a thread on it. I wouldn’t bother sb dragon either as an answer to creature heave decks there are cheaper answers to board that don’t require your win condition do be functioning.

madmanmike said it all. I have a lot of sub optimal main deck cards for the mirror, figured the Trickbind can stop the fetch, so it was better than a dead card. Ended up Trickbinding Forbidden Orchard for an Oath. It is very temporary if you’re using it to fend of activation, but from what I’ve seen, the oath mirror is usually long drawn out and neck and neck. Not to mention Trickbind works on wasteland to save your orchard as well. I wouldn’t recommend Trickbind as a game plan. But if you need to supplement for a lack of strip, that multipurpose card sitting in your board intended for combo might come in handy. If nothing else, there not going to see it coming.

I think a 3 strip if your playing chalice is pletny, it ensure a 1 mana source per a turn. With the strip the opponent can keep a fetch land around until it's needed. In the mirror, strips are definitely not a bad idea, but there are things that are just as effective and multi useful for dealing with the opponent’s orchard, such as engineered explosives and echoing truth. I’ve even used trick bind a couple of times.

I currently run 1 strip in angel oath and 2 Mishra’s Factory main, because in the meta right now, Chalice and Null Rod main deck is incredibly effective.

i'm a little confused at what your mana base is looking like I’ve been kind of toying with a four color build out of amusement and realized that 4x Forbidden Orchard, Mox+ Lotus+ Crop Rotation (+petal albeit uncommon) is 7 or 8 sources of any color you want with out the aid of duels and fetch.
With the type of build it seems your building, I’d run: the obvious 4 Forbidden Orchard, 1 Crop Rotation, 4 fetch, 3 Tropical Island, 3 Underground Sea, and a city. Then strips in the remaining deck space. This brings you up to 8 or 9 red/white sources.

Every once and a while you’ll come across some one saying you should ad duels. assuming you run one duel containing one of each color that’s an additional 5 ways to achieve the mana source you want, in theory. Mechanically it doesn’t work out so well, due to the needing to achieve more than 1 color more than 1 time.

Misdirection enables turn 1 orchard mox oath go protection, duress needs another mana source.
Duress provides information on the amount of control you have to compete with and clears something out.
Misdirection often finds its self being a dead card. However, people will definitely think twice before laying out a recall
Duress can usually find something to target
I’ve played with both and prefer the speed of misdirection by a narrow margin.