Mono Red Lock Stax

[yespuhyren]

This deck is basically a cramming of every major lock piece viable into one beautiful little deck.  To start this off, lets get a list:

Lands/Mana - 21

4x Mountain
4x Barbarian Ring
3x Wasteland
4x Bazaar of Baghdad
4x Mishra's Workshop
1x Strip Mine
1x Tolarian Academy

Artifact Mana - 9

1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Pearl
1x Black Lotus
1x Sol Ring
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mana Vault

Creatures - 6

4x Goblin Welder
2x Gorilla Shaman

Lock Pieces - 24

4x Crucible of Worlds
4x Sphere of Resistance
4x Null Rod
3x Tangle Wire
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Smokestack
1x Trinisphere

Sideboard:

4x Ensnaring Bridge (Fish, Ichorid, etc)
4x Slice and Dice (Fish, Random crap, ETW.dec)
4x Defense Grid (Fight against random EOT rebuild FTW.dec)
3x Tormod's Crypt (ICHORID!!!)

Basically this is just what it looks like, a basic stax deck.  With all of the lock pieces that it has, it really has the ability to screw an opponent severely regardless of what deck they are playing.  This maintains the Welder + Bazaar engine as well as the Bazaar + Crucible engine.  With minimal amounts of lands/mana, the deck will often just be constantly drawing and dropping threats to hinder the opponent.  Wastelands hit the nonbasics, and Shamans/Rods hit the moxes.  Chalice is best @0, though dropping it @1 is still ok because while you lose welders and shamans, you can still bazaar them away and still have null rod to shut down their moxes.

[LotusHead]

I've died to this thing on MWS.  Thanks for posting it.

My initial impressions (while getting my ass kicked) was F'n Chimp!

Is Crucible more important that SmokeStack? (hence the 4/3 configuration)?

Or is purely a "Crushible costs a comfortable MWS 3 while SmokeStack costs an uncofortable 4"?
Is Barbarian Ring THAT much of a beater?

Lastly, Chalice for 1 must hurt, unless you Lock your opponent out the the game. in which case you sac Chalice to Stack, then pwn face with beaters.   How often does this come up?

Simian Spirit Guide: No place here?

[zeus-online]

Man! I'm amazed, its so simple yet it looks like it might be good...24 lock pieces.

Any reason for no uba's ?

/Zeus

[yespuhyren]

Very good reason for no Ubas.  No room   The main reason that Smokestack is only a 3 of in here, is because I needed to cut a lock pieces and you can still lock the opponent out without smokestack.  Between 4x Null rod and 4x Shaman to hit moxes (sometimes chalice too) and Sphere of Resistances to make casting anything relevant, the lock is often very strong.  In theory, if I were to cut something for the Smokestack, it would probably be the 4th Shaman.

[madmanmike25]

Seems like a solid enough stax deck.  A few things:

1.  I really, really can't see why you wouldn't want the 4th Smokestack.  It is such a good first turn play.  Combine that with a 'free' chalice and that alone can seal the game.  Smokestack is a vital card(Ichorid matchup aside).

2 Why no Mana Crypt?  I will never forget when someone wrote "OMG I love Mana Crypt, it's like 2 moxes glued together!!"  You have 4 monkies, it's 2 free mana.  What was the reason for it's omission?

3.  How is your mana base holding up?  I'm so used to having the standard 30 sources that I question less mana in any Stax deck now.  You have 24 sources for mana, has that ever been a problem?

4.  How do you not just lose to a first turn/early Oath+Orchard?  Translate that into: Why no Duplicant?

Is Barbarian Ring THAT much of a beater?

Yeah it is.  It is also a win condition when you have Chalice @ 1.  Personally I have been setting my Chalices at 2 lately, but 1 still has it's uses.

I agree with the omission of Uba Mask.  There are too many tutors for it to truly wreck house, though it is nice to have an opponent reveal counter spells.

[yespuhyren]

No mana crypt or Mana Vault because of the 4x Chalice 4x Null Rod.  I have made it so you have the least amount of dead and painful draws, and you have the greatest chance of drawing threat after threat where stax would often have the issue of drawing dead lands/artifact mana.  Goldfish the mana base.  I haven't had any problems.  I still think -1 Shaman + 1 Smokestack will be the correct change here.

[goobafish]

I spent about 3 hours playtesting with yespu, while he tweaked the deck last night. It seems really strong.

4.  How do you not just lose to a first turn/early Oath+Orchard?  Translate that into: Why no Duplicant?

You do loose to an early Oath+Orchard. There is no point putting a few cards in to try to stop that play. The deck destroys mana resources and locks the opponent down hard. Its not a big deal to loose to a busted play, if they dont get the Oath+Orchard opener, they probably can be sufficiently locked down by the time they find it.

[madmanmike25]

No mana crypt or Mana Vault because of the 4x Chalice 4x Null Rod.  I have made it so you have the least amount of dead and painful draws, and you have the greatest chance of drawing threat after threat where stax would often have the issue of drawing dead lands/artifact mana.  Goldfish the mana base.  I haven't had any problems.  I still think -1 Shaman + 1 Smokestack will be the correct change here.

I totally agree with cutting Mana Vault.  But again, I would recommend cutting Mox Pearl(aka the loser mox) for the Mana Crypt.  I think it is just better.  You still have Bazaar to filter out that same card slot if you have Chalice/Null Rod.  2 permanent mana is worth 1.5 dmg per turn on avg.

You do loose to an early Oath+Orchard. There is no point putting a few cards in to try to stop that play. The deck destroys mana resources and locks the opponent down hard. Its not a big deal to loose to a busted play, if they dont get the Oath+Orchard opener, they probably can be sufficiently locked down by the time they find it.

I think that my suggestion was taken a little bit too literally.  Dupe can get rid of all the problematic creatures in Vintage, pre SB of course.  It 'eats' a permanent as well which goes along with the Stax game plan.  Early Oath was just one example of where you would want Dupe.  Dread Return would be another example, as would opposing Welders.  Spot critter removal was my concern.

If I was trying to stop broken plays, I would have suggested you add FoW.

[mox apricot]

-2 sphere of resistance
+2 aggro
 trike and titan ideally

Also, I think a mind slaver would fit well into this list
-1 mana vault +mind slaver

Some one commented on the 3x stax, and the 4x crucible
Crucible serves as excellent fodder for force, your goal is to double threat with this deck, plus crucible helps stax go broken, sac land play land type stuff. Second crucible is great weld material as well as needed for gemstone and workshop protection (and in this list factory). So I’d say it’s not more important, than stack, but more useful

as for cutting mana vault, a lot of people i've talked to, find sol ring a better choice. the numbers tend to work out better supposedly

[Bill Copes]

I'd sooner cut a tangle wire and a crucible, for aggro components, rather than cut any of the spheres.  SoR is the kind of sauce that keeps decks like ichorid from cabal therapying and dread returning you into oblivion.  It's also too important against belcher and warrens. Making decks pay mana for free spells is too hot to cut away.

[dicemanx]

I spent about 3 hours playtesting with yespu, while he tweaked the deck last night. It seems really strong.

This variant seems like a simple, elegant approach in facing the coming post-FS combo storm and to deal with existing combo/control decks. What sort of matches have you guys tested so far, and with what results?

I must admit that I'm a little puzzled at the lack of Crypt and Vault, especially since the deck looks like it revolves around exploding in the first two turns before exhausting itself. I know they are anti-synergistic with Null Rod, but you still want to maximize the chances of dropping all of your lock pieces, including that Null Rod, as fast as possible. Plus, the combo of Smokestack, Welder, and Shaman will ensure that you will not be dying to a Crypt.

I'm also puzzled why there aren't 4 Smokestacks in there. Surely a Smokestack must rank higher as a threat than CoW, or even Tangle Wire. a First turn Stack is still a fearsome play when coupled with Null Rod or CotV, not to mention some of the lesser lock pieces like Wire or SoR/Trinisphere.

Finally, post FS - would you include Street Wraith? That about the land that can be sacrificed to draw a card (and hence combo nicely with CoW)?

[goobafish]

As for the card choices I am no expert, Yespu will answer that for you.

The testing was mainly against gifts, because that is what we are seeing most of here. We tend to use gifts as a benchmark match up for all of the mono-red creations yespu comes up with, and then move on to variants of Long, Intuition AK Control in our personal gauntlet, and eventually Fish and Ichorid online.

This deck has a favorable match up against gifts, intuition ak (drain trendils) (as long as the list runs red) and long variants, and where I would assume the weaker matchups would lie, is in Fish type decks and possibly Ichorid, although I think the sideboard is well equipped. The main weakness is obviously the busted turn 1 or 2 play to which it has no answer in the form of Warrens (rare because of rod, chalice, sphere), and the more common tinker. As I posted above I do not think that there is a point cramming a few duplicants or the like into the deck just to avoid this type of play, it will dilute the deck and shift away from it's main focus, which is clearly resource denial.

Peter, I think that you are looking at the deck the wrong way. The deck does not try to explode the first two turns, it starts off with consistent resource denying plays, then uses the workshops to pump out the larger lock pieces. The typical first 2 turns will involve either a shaman or a welder and one of chalice, rod, or sphere in order to slow down their mana production. It is also very common to see a wasteland dropped in those first few turns. After you deny their base resources which impede development, you can drop the larger lock pieces, which against a control deck are must counters, causing them to fall even further behind.

I am not sure about the inclusion of crypt or vault, I would need to test the deck myself to see if they would be effective.

[yespuhyren]

-2 sphere of resistance
+2 aggro
 trike and titan ideally

So you would cut two amazing lock pieces for 2 creatures that you will never be able to hardcast, and revolve around welder and bazaar.  Oh...and Triskelion is a pretty crappy creature with 4x Null Rod....

Also, I think a mind slaver would fit well into this list
-1 mana vault +mind slaver

First of all....I don't play Mana Vault.  2nd of all, how could you think Mindslaver could possibly fit into this deck?  I mean honestly, I'm not trying to sound rude, but this deck plays FOUR NULL RODS. Not to mention Slaver is virtually impossible to cast with Rods/Spheres.  I don't know what you are talking about here.

I totally agree with cutting Mana Vault.  But again, I would recommend cutting Mox Pearl(aka the loser mox) for the Mana Crypt.  I think it is just better.  You still have Bazaar to filter out that same card slot if you have Chalice/Null Rod.  2 permanent mana is worth 1.5 dmg per turn on avg.

I'm not saying Crypt is bad.  Crypt is insane.  The main reason I was always so quick to cut it is that I have probably lost more games to Crypt
than any card BUT Yawgmoth's Will.  With vitually no kill condition for a really long time, playing a Chalice@1 all but guarantees death unless I can resolve a smokestack.  If I can play a welder then sure, it is awesome.  Rich Mattiuzo managed to beat me in a matchup we had tested extremely in my favor because he managed to keep all answers to crypt off the table and kill me on dice rolls.

I think that my suggestion was taken a little bit too literally.  Dupe can get rid of all the problematic creatures in Vintage, pre SB of course.  It 'eats' a permanent as well which goes along with the Stax game plan.  Early Oath was just one example of where you would want Dupe.  Dread Return would be another example, as would opposing Welders.  Spot critter removal was my concern.

If I was trying to stop broken plays, I would have suggested you add FoW.

While true, without a welder and bazaar duplicants are useless, as casting them is virtually impossible.  The more logical choice to an aggro bunch would be something like this:

-1 Shaman
-1 Tangle Wire
-1 Something Else (hard to figure out, probably 1x Null Rod)

+3 Ensnaring Bridge

Going with the MD Ensnaring Bridge plan means that you can stop most damage, especially with Bazaar, and if you can even lock them out of casting things with Smokestack/Spheres/Rods then you can effectively save yourself against all answers to bridge.  Then just win with Barbarian Rings.  Simple and elegant.

I spent about 3 hours playtesting with yespu, while he tweaked the deck last night. It seems really strong.

This variant seems like a simple, elegant approach in facing the coming post-FS combo storm and to deal with existing combo/control decks. What sort of matches have you guys tested so far, and with what results?

Mostly Gifts, though I've tested it on my own as well.  Its really strong against Storm combo as well, and Ichorid too.  Ichorid doesn't like seeing Bridge + Sphere.  Not at all.

I must admit that I'm a little puzzled at the lack of Crypt and Vault, especially since the deck looks like it revolves around exploding in the first two turns before exhausting itself. I know they are anti-synergistic with Null Rod, but you still want to maximize the chances of dropping all of your lock pieces, including that Null Rod, as fast as possible. Plus, the combo of Smokestack, Welder, and Shaman will ensure that you will not be dying to a Crypt.

Its not so much about exploding as just playing lock pieces consistantly.  Crypt just seems like the 61st card to me, though I HAVE considered cutting a wire for it maindeck.  I've also looked at cutting another card for Vault, its just really hard to cut stuff here.

I'm also puzzled why there aren't 4 Smokestacks in there. Surely a Smokestack must rank higher as a threat than CoW, or even Tangle Wire. a First turn Stack is still a fearsome play when coupled with Null Rod or CotV, not to mention some of the lesser lock pieces like Wire or SoR/Trinisphere.

This has been changed already, going down to 3 Shamans for the 4th Smokestack.

Finally, post FS - would you include Street Wraith? That about the land that can be sacrificed to draw a card (and hence combo nicely with CoW)?

Street Wraith is cool, but the issue is what do you cut for it.  I just don't feel it is going to make the cut as I would sooner play a 64 card deck than a 56 card deck due to the amount of genuinely important spells in this deck.  This deck can't really cut down as it just packs in as much as possible and everything is relevant.

The land that would be sacrificed would be a nice little trick, but the 8 red sources are really important to making sure I can consistantly power out a welder or a shaman.  The 3x Wasteland is already a little low for my taste, but I just don't want to reduce the red mana count.  Again, a nice card, but just no room for it in the deck.

[RaZe]

I strongly think that mana crypt should be in the deck.

If you up the count of Smokestax to 4, plus the 3 Monkeys already in the main, Crypt shouldn't be such a threat @ all. Crypt is certainly better than any of the off color moxen.

I don't like Tangle Wire in the build as well. I used to run a 5 Sphere configuration about a year ago and Wire is just to redundant with all the mana lock pieces you already have. I would go as far as saying Simian Spirit Guide would be a better card to include to help power out artifacts with 5Spheres and Rods and act as an extra win condition when you have a pretty good lock going on.

As far as Aggro creature is discussed, wouldn't Razormane Masticore [aka RazorCore] be the optimal choice. Especially since you aren't running Uba Mask anymore. But Ensnraring Bridge is still probably the better choice. [If you are actually able to decrease your hand while under the influence of 5spheres and Null Rod.]

[mox apricot]

yeah, sorry for some reaosn i thought that the null rods were sb. retract previous coment

[mox apricot]

still I think a duplicant and another piece of artifact aggro, juggernaut, isn’t a terrible idea, something you can use workshop to cast though the spheres, if they manage to get chalice @1 out, your left with factory, and most people run 5 strip

[Methuselahn]

Interesting decklist.   I'm curious to know how you handle the FS Ichorid lists.  Surely, 3 Crypts in the side come in, but that typically isn't enough.  Even with the Spheres of Resistance.  Ichorid can nowadays just rely on Dryad Arbor or Factory for the mana it needs for Flashback.  Also, ichorid can decide to draw and not play against you, enabling discard down to 7 and then start Dredging.

Really, I'd think you should be playing 4 Leylines in the side.

[yespuhyren]

I ended up cutting:

MD:

1x Gorilla Shaman
1x Tangle Wire

To add in the final two pieces of artifact mana acceleration.  Sometimes its good, sometimes its worse.  Who knows which is better. 

AND

SB:

-4x Viashino heretic (Lack of Stax ANYWHERE)
+4x Slice and Dice (ETW, Fish, etc)

Against Ichorid, the SB plan is the following:

-4 Null Rod
-3 Tangle Wire
-4 Smokestack

+4 Slice and Dice
+4 Ensnaring Bridge
+3 Tormod's Crypt

[McBain]

Any new updates on the deck, ive been playing with it for a while and i was just wondering if you have come up with any new conclusions.
what has your testing vs flash decks shown you.
I'm currently trying -1 pearl for 1 monkey

[the boogie man]

Have you considered adding the magus of the moon? it is a decent beater, and it absolutely rapes some decks. the only issue is that it costs 3.

[yespuhyren]

No, the only issue is that all of your Workshops/Bazaars/Wastes/Strip/Academy become mountains completely negating the advantage you get from having card draw/mana/mana denial with Spheres of Resistance and Null Rods in play.