What is the most common way a dreadnought would die? I was just thinking, if it's something like shatter or rack and ruin, would adding Welding Jar be worth it? Can save the Nought from such effects until he can end the game. Also, another option would be to try lightning greaves. It gives the speed and untargetability which Smennen was saying is it's biggest weakness.
Unfortunately it adds another card that you need to make the deck viable so it becomes a 3 card combo that needs a lot of accel to work right. Which is basically leaves very little room for the disruption.  

Perhaps, Try a slower build and make it more control orients. B/U, duress, Force of Will, Unmask, MisD are all possibilities to protect and disrupt, then the MaskNought for the kill along with greaves for protection. And with blue comes lots of good card drawing. Any thoughts on this?

Cause its funny. The biggest and loudest person to denounce Suicide, loses to it twice and drops from a high profile tournament. Like ultimate Karmic Retribution. It has nothing to do with how good or bad JP or Sui is. Just the circumstances are hilarious.

I am going to agree with MoreFling here, the Solemns seem like a very good idea because of the synergy they have with the deck.

Another thought, you mentioned the reason for the beatdown creatures is because you wanted the deck to have diversity. Have you thought about also trying to fit in like 2 Staff of Dominations and then 1 Rocket Launcher/Goblin Cannon? That way you now have 3 ways to win, lockdown, beatdown, combo.

I am definately going to try all these new things out this weekend hopefully. And hooray for wMUD revival, glad to see not everyone thinks the deck is obsolete compared to Slaver decks(ugh, stupid decks).

I just played WelderMUD to a 4-0 1st place last night at our local tourney. It wasn't against any great decks, but there wasn't many easy matchups, lot of aggro for some reason, usually it's all control there.

My list I had 2 Shaman's main deck, must say I luv those little buggers. They fit the whole deck so very well, and can cause so many random wins just like wastelands that they are invaluable to me. I am only running 1 Karn as a serious win condition, and even that I am thinking of replacing, though he does the whole mox monkey thing so replacing him with a 3rd Shaman seems a bad idea. And I can't think of any other lock components I would want to play.

I personally have a loathing for the chalice so I don't play any. And my deck had 2 Crucibles in the board, which is I think a very good place for them, bring them in just as you would Blood Moon. Hell, even replace the moons in the board with the cruciibles. They are good stuff like that. Nothing else seriously different. I ran only 3 Sphere of Resistance, 4 3sphere configuration. And then 1 more mountain and 2 Great Furnaces to make up for the additional red cards(Monkeys, and FTK's in the board).

I see your latest list dropped the Vials which I must agree with. Considering they only work with the welders, they aren't that good. Most of the time now welders die to Fire/Ice more than they get countered for me, so being able to sneak them in wouldn't matter much.

I am wondering, how are all those win conditions working out for you? Do you feel the deck is coming close to a 7/10/Stacker build feel? I remember when the first Stax list came out with NO win conditions other than welders. I like that idea and it works quite well. Most people will scoop when they realize the game is over. If they don't then you slow roll the match and try to get a 1-0 game score for the match. It's thier fault if they don't know to concede properly.

Are there any seriously bad matchups for this deck that is keeping it out of the spot light? Why does everyone hate on the deck so much. Last night it seemed very golden for me. Everyone I played against was bitching about how unfair the deck is and how stupid of a matchup it is for them. Especially the URphid player, hehe that was amusing.

Yes, when the Cloudscraper comes into play at the end of turn face up due to leaving play, it will trigger the Dragon Wings ability which are in the graveyard now due to being cycled.

Brainstorm digs 3 down, this only digs 1 down and then lets you play with the next 2 cards, that is a huge difference. Like in combo when digging for another mana source, or in control when digging for a FoW to save your butt. This won't really help in those situations.

First off, no caps lock please.

Second, whats with the missing acceleration? Need the Ruby, Emerald and 4th ritual. Cut the stifles, what does this deck care about stifling? Probably don't need the Library of Alexandria either. And Cunning Wishes? Are you trying to play control or combo? This deck seems to be very confused of its role.

Because blue players tend to like using instants, especially a 5cc one such as Force of Will. It's a blue card that hoses blue, those types of things don't see much play usually. What non-blue instants would this really affect? Swords and most black creature removal are cheap enough to where this isn't that good, not to mention, blue decks don't run creatures. Tog and Morphling are kill conditions. Ya perhaps burn decks, but chill is a much better card for that. And prison decks have much better cards like both spheres. This card just doesn't do enough to matter.

Definately play. Such a good experience. And if you keep playing, you will learn everything you need fast. Especially if you hang out here and Starcity Games and just read up on everything you can. Try and go over all the new decks, if there is a card you aren't sure what it does, look it up online at something like http://www.crystalkeep.com or http://www.mtgpics.com.

You will have to take the licks though for a bit. Expect to lose to kids, it happens. Especially if you are out of touch. And don't worry, if you are powered, you may even win a few matches based just on that and perhaps do pretty well in the tourney. Most magic players are pretty forgiving about age and don't mind playing with older people at all, so don't worry about it. You should go there whenever you can to play some games with people, see what the decks are like and how they work. Call some stores, see if they have times when people just play casually, or go in during a tournament and try to catch people that are just milling about for a casual game.

But above all, have fun and enjoy the game. You will realize why you started playing in the first place, it's a great and interesting game, so enjoy it.

No, Storm is a triggered ability and only Stifle can stop triggered abilities.

If you want a price guide, check www.ebay.com    It is just about the most accurate prices you can get since that was what people are actually paying for the cards.

Hooray for more power tourneys in SoCal. Just hope this one goes better for me than last one. And this time, remember to side board Pat. Lol.

If there is no need for it why bother? Any unnecessary messing with the B & R list is a bad idea. If the format is healthy and balanced, why try to mess it up? If it ain't broke, don't fix it! That is exactly the situation we have here. And restrictions still work to kill decks, or at least tone them down to a playable level. Look at GAT and Long. 2 decks that dominated, then were neutered by effective restrictions. There is no need for a cap. Also, if we do put in a cap, it either has to be high enough to not matter, or else it will mess up decks. Look at Keeper and any combo deck. Neither of these decks are very dominating, but a cap on the number of restricted cards would seriously harm them since they are both at least 25+ restricted cards. There is no need to be worrying about a restriction cap at this time so don't even bother with it, it is just going to cause unnecessary arguments and flaming that we don't need.

Jacob that doesn't work to wait till after the declare attackers step. Here is what happens:
You declare tog as an attacking creature.
Now you have a choice, either A) Cast Ensnare, or B) Pass priority
A) Cast Ensnare to tap his current creatures, then he activates man land after that resolves and blocks tog.
B) You pass priority, now, he can either activate manland here, and then you cast Ensnare. If he doesn't have anymore manlands you are fine. BUT if he passes priority instead of activating a manland it becomes the declare blockers phase. And now he can declare any other non manland creatures as blocking.

I think Shadowrift is really the best. It definately makes the tog unblockable. True it only gives +1.5 but it isn't that much of a difference. You should be able to kill them with a tog when you are ready to go for the kill.

The color splashes just don't seem worth it. Especially the blue. Why no thirst of knowledge? The card is amazing in artifact decks. And the black tutoring power seems really unnecessary in a deck with so much redundancy. And it doesn't mesh well with the 3spheres.

Also, definately add the 4th Metalworker and the academy. They provide WAY  too much accel in an artifact deck like this. And Im hesitant to play a deck with such little control and yet so few win conditions. Seems very dangerous, even if they win conditions are big beefy beats like the colossus that recur.

And why the bridges? I understand you can weld/smokestack them away when you are ready to swing, but there is just nothing better to protect yourself?

And a sidenote, this deck is very much wMud and very little TnT if any. TnT requires fast beats with survival engine abuse. This just has you setup a lock and eventually get out a win condition and win. I fail to see why this is better than wMUD in that case. wMUD has a better total lock, especially since the whole deck is based around it, along with a smoother mana base. And the win condition of either nothing or karn would seem superior than playing around and trying to cast an 11cc creature that still takes 2 turns to kill.

What's with the worthy cause? You only have 3 creatures to sacrifice to it, and you really don't want to be sacrificing those creatures to it. If you have an angel in play, why care about gaining life?

Another thing, getting the angel into play is going to be tough unless you manage to mana drain a really nice target for it. There is the odd tinker as well, but still, unreliable method of getting the angel into play. Heck, even workshop decks have some trouble getting her into play, I fail to see how this would do it any better. And the fact that it is your only non-death/pseudo-win condition doesn't help.

Which is another problem. Decks are designed to win the game. This is designed to not-lose. That really isn't going to cut it I feel. You put no real pressure on the opponent other than eventually casting a 4/4 flyer. And if they manage to remove it, you have problems. And there are several ways to remove it in type 1. Removing it in response to the greaves equip. After its greaved, balance, and edict as well as disk and deed. And then theres always the get rid of the greaves then remove the angel plan. So, it seems frail to depend on only 3 artifact creatures as your only way to win/not die.

And the long cunning wish? Why bother. Either add more wishes or fix the board so it isn't tooled for wishes.  Your whole board is nearly 1of instants based to abuse the wish, but you only run one, so it isn't going to be that effective. And speaking of the board, what is with the Haunting Echoes? Just as a board into a pseudo-win condition card? Echoes isn't all that great in type 1 because of all the 1ofs people run in decks, you aren't likely to get very much out of thier decks.

And finally, the mana base. OMG why?!? 7 Fetches, and only 6 lands to fetch? In a control style deck, that is just a bad idea. Only the one volcanic to support the 2 REBs in the board? Wasteland would completely destroy you. Heck, even 1 might be enough, but 2 would surely crush you, especially since you are planning on casting a 7 mana creature to win with.

And lastly, regrowth? WTF for? You have 2 ways of casting it, of which they can only be fetched with tinker. The mox emerald and the lotus. It isn't a reliable card, and it can't even be used for something else like forcing with when you can't cast it.

So in conclusion. Scrap the deck, it isn't worth it. It won't work. Just about any other decently constructed deck will crush you. You have no defense, and your entire mana base is fragile, especially when you depend on casting a 7cc creature to win.


P.S. Read the card before you build a deck around it. You dont need to remove the angel for you to win. It only prevents your opponents from winning. So the worthy cause is a completely useless card.

Smash have you tried them recently? Perhaps you got a bad batch when you purchased them whenever that was. But I got a box of 10 packs of 100, and they are all the same. I don't see any noticeable difference between different sleeves, from the same box or not. And I have not had any problem with actually fitting the cards into the sleeves either. For me, DragonShields are the best, very high quality. I haven't had any problems with them, never split one yet.

Never EVER use toploaders please. The cards do not need that much protection for every day play. The only thing toploaders are good for is shipping cards because the card is no longer yours so you don't want the person to get a bent card.

As for real sleeves to play in. Ultra Pro are generally considered the worst of the bunch. Very cheap construction. Most people use the japaense sleeves. I personally used to use those, but I have since switched to Dragon Shields because they are much tougher sleeves. They aren't as tall, but they have more strength, which I prefer.

TnT generally has better things to be doing with its time and mana. Especially for a non workshop 2 drop. It doesnt want to go with the whole sacrificng route, its got better utility critters than the ravager. Perhaps as a 1 of, but even then I would rather be survivaling for something more effective for the current situation. In the Stacker decks, they are more focused on the beat down and the end the game now plan than TnT. TnT is very much a control deck compared to Stacker. The Ravager really helps out with the beatdown, so it flows with stacker decks a lot better.

I like the little bugger, I would test him if I had any. His ability looks very strong, allowing any artifact on the board to dodge swords, not just himself, so they can be welded back later if need be. And being able to move his counters to something else is really strong. Especially if that something else happens to be a Triskelion or Pentavus. Then it's very busted. He's like the little Atog that could, hehe. And he fits nicely in the mana curve, 2 mana, so if you can a no workshop hand, you go land, mox, ravager. He would also probably start getting people to play Artifact lands, since he can just eat those when need be. People should really start playing those things more, they are very solid, with just welders and metal workers alone, but now with this guy as well, even more use for them.

I think the Ravager like the Sword of Fire and Ice could be really strong additions to Stacker decks, just need to find room and test them to see if they actually work. My first reaction though is they are both very strong. Anyone have testing data? I know there is that Milan tourney I think where a guy got 2nd with a deck that used both of these cards.

Uhm, 2 issues. If you actually read the ruling on buyback, it is an additional cost, which means it is part of the cost which means Helm will reduce it. This is an old ruling, you really shouldn't be arguing against this mask, it's been done over before many times.

"You may pay an additional [cost] as you play this spell." Being the key part.

And as for buyback affecting storm count, of course not. Playing a spell with buyback will not increase the spell count anymore than just playing the spell would unless you replay the spell once it is back in your hand. But that should all be obvious.

They can't choose a card anymore since they have all been chosen so nothing happens. When you are done paying G then and the spell finishes resolving, the last card they did manage to choose will go into your hand since even though you payed G after it, they could not choose another card.

Just stay as focused to the game as possible. Ignore what is going on around you. I know at times it may be tempting to look to the game next to you and watch the action, especially if you feel so in control of your current game that it is boring. But don't give in to that temptation, stay focused on your game. Everytime something new happens in it, ask yourself how it affects you, your deck, and your strategy. Also ask yourself how you can deal with it, what answers are in your deck, how can you get them. When that maze of ith hit play, you should have told yourself, you have 1 way around it, strip mine.

The big point is to just stay as focused to the game as possible. Keep your head in the game and only the game. Turn off everything around you.

There are three main Storm based combo decks: TPS, Draw7.dec, and DeathLong. I was wondering

Why have the Storm based decks split into 3 different versions? Would it be best to just have one and everyone focuses on that one?

Or is there a specific need for the 3 different versions?

What are the main differences between them?

Are these all that big of a difference or are these just minor tweaks on the same backbone of a deck?

What are the possible advantage/disadvantages of each of these decks?

It just seems that the differences are so minor to me. The bigger questions are things like what disruption to be running. Swarms, Duress, and/or FoW. I am really liking the FoW right now. But not sure if it is enough, I really luv the swarms against control decks because it really lets you just run wild. Thank you for any answers you can provide me.

I just upgraded my power from unlimited to beta. most of the unlimited was in pretty good condition, very good to mint id say. Sold it all for 2550. Then picked up a full beta/alpha power 9 set for 3400. Then condition isn't all that good on most of them except for the sapphire, lotus and ancestral which is all that really matter. This was all in person to the same dealer though, no ebaying or anything, but it was pretty close to ebay prices.

Regrowth does see some play. But with 4x, I think it may see a lot more play. Why GAT decks don't use it I don't know. Reusing the Timewalk or Ancestral again is really good stuff. With 4x, I think an Emerald Alice type deck could really have some fun with that. It should really just stay on the list, if it isn't being used, why take it off and try to cause problems? The originals of Regrowth all suck compared to the original and that is why they don't get used.

As for key, the main use I see it for now would be with metalworker producing even more mana on 2nd turn after workshop-metalkworker 1st turn. Do we really want that much mana available on the 2nd turn? While it does require 3 specific cards, all of which are 4x though, the amount of mana that generates is quite silly. I don't think we need to be giving slavery/mud decks another way to generate a lot of mana, it's fine where it is. Being restricted makes it too random to play the 1 of, but I feel with 4, people will start using it since the consistency of it increases.

As for FoF and LoA... They are too effecient at what they do to ever be taken off the list. Card drawing is always a problem in this format, good card drawing is a serious problem. These 2 cards are very good at what they do, and would create issues if allowed as 4x. Just think about MonoU decks being able to run all 8x. With the FoFs fueling the LoA and being monocolored so not so screwed by the colorless LoA mana.

Mox diamond should stay on the list, it does see play right now in combo decks, and would probably see more play not to mention a reworking of combo decks if allowed 4x. It is still accell, and it's decent accell with draw7's because you usually already have hit your land drop, so any other land is useless, this fixes that.

Entomb I wasn't privy to any of the horrible monoB entomb dragon decks from before this thing got nuked so I can't say how busted it was. But don't think that because the current dragon decks don't use it that it is useless. They are just different decks, built for long term and strength against disruption. But if Entomb was taken off the list, you can bet there would be new different dragon decks designed to abuse it and go off extremely fast. This would need testing to see how fast they go off, but the spoils dragon listings I've heard about are already at a good speed, do they need to be faster? This would need serious testing to show that no it won't get broken the day it gets unrestricted I feel.

The other cards I am fairly unexcited about. Take them on or off, I don't think they matter much either way. But I do have one question, what is with all the recent clamoring for removing stuff off the list? Just because it is too long so you want to clean it up? Why? Who cares? Do you stare at it all day long thinking, god this is ugly? Why make trouble when there is none? The list should be as untouched as possible. Not screwed with every chance we get.

I'm not a big fan of the Circular Logics. They are really only effective once your graveyard is fat and setup, and with an active discard piece on the board. By that time, it should be just about game because you are setup and doing what you need to do. Would perhaps the freebie Misdirection be a better choice?

Without the logics does the deck really even need Bazaar? I'm looking at it and there are only 7 cards you really want to pitch to it, and with the intuitions/entombs, they will usually end up where you want them initially anyways. Dragon uses bazaar more as a combo piece than a draw engine. Madness uses it as a draw engine, but then, most of that deck is pitchable to it. This deck there is so few to pitch, it doesn't seem like a very effective draw engine. Especially when there are better uses for the squees, namely Zombie Infestation.

/me goes and does some testing and stuff now to see how it all works. Looks like a very interesting deck, especially for around here because of all the control hate that is possible to go into the deck, FoW, MisD, Logic, Duress, Therapy. Good stuff.

He's european, they all get away with such horrible mana bases somehow. We think it's thier water supply.

As for the deck, I'm very torn on it. It looks like a pile, but then it looks interesting at the same time. It reminds me of a deck I used to play with the Zombie Infestation. Though mine was purely fun and lacked any power/real testing. The Nether Void + Zombie Infestation is a very nice touch, especially with the ghouls. Being able to bring out more threats while still under a void is very solid. I think with a lot of testing and fixing of the mana base for non-europeans, it could possible work. Though it remains to be seen if this is actually better than regular Nether Void or not.

Couple quick comments, is the one Entomb worth it? Wouldn't a 3rd Intuition be better? Getting only 1 card to the yard doesn't seem all the very helpful in this deck, whereas getting 3 is much better. And Turbulent dreams? Just to bounce thier stuff before dropping the Void or was there enough aggro type decks to justify this?

Maze of Ith doesn't work against morphling. They just make him untargetable. But that's besides the point that no one uses morphiling anymore except the few mono blue decks. Keeper has switched to Decree of Justice. And deed works pretty nicely against that since you blow it for 0 and it kills all the tokens. Wumpus admits, he should have left the deed in against the keeper deck. No need to bring in other cards against them when the maindecked card works just fine.

As for the deed v. dragon argument, it is disruption. They CANNOT go off when that is in play with 3 mana open unless they have mox-bazaar-animate effect in hand along with spare mana for the extra animate. Not an easy thing to setup, especially since a wasteland stops that plan as well. If you cast deed against dragon, they either go off then or they have serious issues to deal with for the rest of the game.

Also, deed is disruption in most matches. Either by eating thier board of creatures against aggro, or eating thier moxen and other setup cards such as Phids and Scepters against control. Or against dragon, preventing them from going off. That is disruption since they cannot play thier original game plan, you have DISRUPTED them in doing what thier deck is supposed to do. How you see otherwise is beyond me.

As for keeper players, they are usually busy dealing with your Duress, Hymn to Tourach, Nether Void, and creatures to worry too much about your deed. They run 8 counters, you run much more cards to stop them than 8. And Null Rod? Please, the only thing that works against is Scepters really. Yes it shuts down moxes, but so does deed. Null rod is absolutely horrible against Workshop decks whereas Deed is amazing against them. You know how I know this? Because I actually played it, even against HuntedWumpus here. He got turn 2 Null Rod, still lost quite easily. Why? Because Null Rod doesn't clear the board, it just negates some of my acceleration, not all because I still have workshops/tombs to play with.

I've been running a stacker deck for a while now. And recently I have taken to using 2 main deck Phyrexian Processors. They are usually very good in the deck, as fatties 9 and 10(Juggernaut and Su-Chi being 1-8). The activation cost can sometimes be annoying, but it is usually not a problem unless you go mox, workshop, proc 1st turn, but you just simply don't do that. Drop something else in that situation until you build up the mana to activate it. The ability to consistently turn out huge fatties turn after turn if it stays on the board against control and even aggro is amazing. Just gotta be careful with the life spent, against control, 7-10 is usually optimal, against aggro 3-5. It does have negative synergy with the Pyrostatic Pillars maindeck, but that is a minor point since you can usually just play around the pillars. And you don't even run pillars since this is more Stax than Stacker.

As for Null Rod, use the mox monkeys. They are just really good, able to eat rods, moxes and scepters. The greaves stop working under Null Rod so they don't exactly make the Heretic better in that situation. And no you don't really have a problem with Blood Moon, usually by the time that comes out, you have abused the workshop enough. And you have metal workers for even more boost. Heck, you could even run blood moon in the board if you wanted.

I'm just wondering, do the speed from processors really help a lot? I've seen the new Stax deck just take to running no kill cards in the deck anymore and win through Opponents concession with the lock in place or if it comes to it, Welder beat down. This deck looks confused almost, half Stacker, half Stax. Perhaps it works though, have you tested it out and tried comparing it to Stax? I think if you are trying to make the deck more beatdown oriented, then more draw-7s would be good. Refilling your hand is amazing. At the very list try to fit Memory Jar in, and perhaps Timetwister.